HELL... AND HEAVEN!

TheQuantumMechanic · Subject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN! Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:50 pm

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

May I have your opinion about the type of angel I try to developp in this thread http://felarya.forumotion.com/angels-and-succubi-f11/cleansing-angel-t657.htm
Maybe you can help me to flesh them a bit more Very Happy

Whoops, missed that. Sure, I'll take a look at it and get back to you. Smile

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"Scientific Method tells us, 'If it isn't broken, break it and figure out how it works!'."
"Quantum Mechanics tells us, 'If it can be fixed, it isn't really broken!'."

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Karbo · Evil admin Posts: 1658 Join date: 2007-12-08

Again an excellent and very detailled explanation !
Indeed you did very well in not mixing religions in Smile

Only point that worked a bit less in my opinion was on the restraint demons or angels have when coming in other worlds. In the case of Felarya, there has been many case of these beings staying for very long without problems or being specially powerful. Maybe a special link allow them to blend better in Felarya I don't know ^_^

TheQuantumMechanic · Subject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN! Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:05 am

Karbo wrote:

Again an excellent and very detailled explanation !
Indeed you did very well in not mixing religions in Smile

Thank you. Very Happy

Karbo wrote:

Only point that worked a bit less in my opinion was on the restraint demons or angels have when coming in other worlds. In the case of Felarya, there has been many case of these beings staying for very long without problems or being specially powerful. Maybe a special link allow them to blend better in Felarya I don't know ^_^

Well, there's a few reasons I worked that in. Primarily because otherwise, there's very little reason one wouldn't be tripping over Succubi all the time on Felarya. Laughing

Plus, I tried to leave it open enough that there are dozens of possible methods demons and angels could use to extend their stay in Felarya; possession is merely one of them.

For instance, when angels are given specific missions that require them to travel to a physical realm, it's likely that the order they belong to would set up some kind of link to transfer enough energy across the planes so that they could maintain their presence there. For anything beyond merely being there, they have to use their own personal power reserves (so in a fight they're limited to their natural power level), but they don't have to worry about the "Felarya Energy Tax" because their Order is "footing the bill". Laughing

This is where those Bureaucrat Angels come in: "Wait, you need HOW much Holy energy channelled to you?" Cool

Demons would likely set up some similiar arrangement or contingency as well; whether it's storing up energy in crystals to use as "batteries" while on Felarya (or another world); having energy channelled to them from a friend, ally, or servant; or even drawing it directly from the realm they rule (for high-ranking nobles, Archdukes, and Queens). A big part of the economy in Hell might even be trading in favors and magical items for the purpose of stable existence in a non-Hell realm. Can you imagine how valuable a ring that allows a Demon or Angel to stay in Felarya permanently would be? Smile

Like I said, there's a reason I thought that bit up; it might not seem like it, but it actually opens up more possibilities than it shuts down. Cool

_________________
"Common Sense tells us, 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it!'."
"Scientific Method tells us, 'If it isn't broken, break it and figure out how it works!'."
"Quantum Mechanics tells us, 'If it can be fixed, it isn't really broken!'."

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Sean Okotami · Subject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN! Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:12 am

I think what Karbo meant is that the magic rich environment of Felarya basically gives angels and demons apparition a virtually constant and unlimited suplly of energy, thus allowing them to stay on indefenitely. The wiki also states that the same environment allows summons to stay indefinetly on Felarya.

Also, I'm not really fond of having Hell being made of negative energy while Heaven is made of positive energy. We've been RP'ing about negative mortal dimensions like the Negative Hydra. And if Hell is made of only negative energy, that's the only place the sould of a being of a negative dimension would go after death. And the reverse for Heaven.

I see more Hell and Heaven as made of neutral energy to accomodate for both creatures of positive and negative dimension. And if they go up or down would be based on how heavy their sins weighs against their conscience. Just tossing my two cents here.

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gwadahunter2222 · Hero Posts: 1381 Join date: 2007-12-08 Age: 26

Sean Okotami wrote:

I think what Karbo meant is that the magic rich environment of Felarya basically gives angels and demons apparition a virtually constant and unlimited suplly of energy, thus allowing them to stay on indefenitely. The wiki also states that the same environment allows summons to stay indefinetly on Felarya.

Also, I'm not really fond of having Hell being made of negative energy while Heaven is made of positive energy. We've been RP'ing about negative mortal dimensions like the Negative Hydra. And if Hell is made of only negative energy, that's the only place the sould of a being of a negative dimension would go after death. And the reverse for Heaven.

I see more Hell and Heaven as made of neutral energy to accomodate for both creatures of positive and negative dimension. And if they go up or down would be based on how heavy their sins weighs against their conscience. Just tossing my two cents here.

You confuse positive and negative to good and evil, creature made of negative energy is not necessary evil and a creature made of positive energy is not necessary good.

Heaven and Hell are shown as two polarities but they don't define and another it doesn't have been state Heaven or Hell are the one positive or negative dimension.
A negative Hydra can come from another dimension than hell Very Happy

_________________
I can call the snows, and wind, and lightning. The trees may bend to me when I ask. The rivers may flow where I ask them to.
But I am granted these things because I ask , with respect in my heart, and I am willing to offer something in return. I request only the barest needs for myself and my people.

TheQuantumMechanic · Subject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN! Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:42 am

Sean Okotami wrote:

I think what Karbo meant is that the magic rich environment of Felarya basically gives angels and demons apparition a virtually constant and unlimited suplly of energy, thus allowing them to stay on indefenitely. The wiki also states that the same environment allows summons to stay indefinetly on Felarya.

That works for summons mainly because summoned beasts only care about mana, in the form of raw magical energy. It would be a different matter for creatures who are from realms dependant on a particular form of energy to survive. If there was no sunlight at all on Felarya, a creature that could only survive in direct sunlight is not going to care that the world is overflowing with magical energy; that fact is just not relevant in the case.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Also, I'm not really fond of having Hell being made of negative energy while Heaven is made of positive energy.

Okay, fair enough; you're entitled to your opinion. Smile

Sean Okotami wrote:

We've been RP'ing about negative mortal dimensions like the Negative Hydra.

Okay...

Please point to where I said that "Hell is a negative mortal dimension" or "Hell is the only negative dimension"? I don't think I did, but if I did I'll have to change it, because I never meant to imply that in any way. Neutral

Sean Okotami wrote:

And if Hell is made of only negative energy, that's the only place the sould of a being of a negative dimension would go after death. And the reverse for Heaven.

Incorrect. I believe this is a case of you thinking I'm saying something that I'm not. My intention is to define Hell as a negative energy plane, and Heaven as a positive energy plane. Neither is the only negative/positive energy plane in existence. This Hell and Heaven are also not the only place souls of negative/positive beings go after death. In fact, souls don't "go" there after death at all, because these are not the actual metaphysical "Heaven of God" and "Hell of Lucifer".

They are planes or semi-physical realms with rules of their own, which are inhabited by species of beings that call themselves Angels and Demons. They are also populated by the souls of the dead, but not because it's the afterlife that they automatically pass on to after they die. Souls wind up in Heaven or Hell because Angels or Demons take them there. It has nothing to do with Final Judgement, or mortal sins weighing down on you, or your beliefs; if you're an evil person and a low-level demon: 1) likes your style and 2) manages to get ahold of your soul, or "steal" it while it's in transit to the "real" afterlife... then you wind up in this "Hell". Likewise for Heaven. That's where the psychopomps/spirit guides/shinigami/angels of death come in, they're basically the collection department. Laughing

Sean Okotami wrote:

I see more Hell and Heaven as made of neutral energy to accomodate for both creatures of positive and negative dimension. And if they go up or down would be based on how heavy their sins weighs against their conscience. Just tossing my two cents here.

The problem with that is that it's more of a metaphysical/classical version of Hell and Heaven. Which is something many people here wanted to avoid. In the version I posted, your conscience doesn't really have anything to do with it; the only reason Hell is full of evil people is because Demons "like the vibe". They admire vices and negative attributes; this isn't to say that there aren't noble Demons in Hell, but their concept of honor is likely to take a much different tack than an Angel's. There are poets, artists, and musicians in Hell; and there are great conquerors, warriors, and generals in Heaven.

Someone who does terrible things is not a "good" person, even if they do them with a clean conscience; their actions and life have been tarnished by negative deeds, and Angels just wouldn't be interested in someone like that. Likewise, someone who is as pure as the driven snow would be pretty darn boring to a Demon; "Vice is the Spice of Life", after all- unless the Demon has a hobby of corrupting innocents, there's just no point in bothering with someone like that.

That's the way I was looking at it when I worked all of this up, anyways. Smile

_________________
"Common Sense tells us, 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it!'."
"Scientific Method tells us, 'If it isn't broken, break it and figure out how it works!'."
"Quantum Mechanics tells us, 'If it can be fixed, it isn't really broken!'."

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Zoekin · Subject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN! Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:05 pm

Well-I feel humbled.
Really mind-blowing stuff! I love it.
I really enjoyed reading this and I don't have a thing to add.

Except-

Krista is or rather was fairly high ranked. Her continued existence in Flearya was arranged through special means. In short-she's being punished. I can't say more without spoiling future storylines except to say Markie and Krista may NOT be as they seem.

Sean Okotami · Subject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN! Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:09 pm

Zoekin wrote:

Well-I feel humbled.
Really mind-blowing stuff! I love it.
I really enjoyed reading this and I don't have a thing to add.

Except-

Krista is or rather was fairly high ranked. Her continued existence in Flearya was arranged through special means. In short-she's being punished. I can't say more without spoiling future storylines except to say Markie and Krista may NOT be as they seem.

Same with Terror. According to this, it's only a physical manifestation of her that came in Felarya according to what Quantum said, which I don't think is what Moony intended with her.

_________________
"I don't need an excuse to act or think." - Sean Okotami

gwadahunter2222 · Hero Posts: 1381 Join date: 2007-12-08 Age: 26

Zoekin wrote:

Well-I feel humbled.
Really mind-blowing stuff! I love it.
I really enjoyed reading this and I don't have a thing to add.

Except-

Krista is or rather was fairly high ranked. Her continued existence in Flearya was arranged through special means. In short-she's being punished. I can't say more without spoiling future storylines except to say Markie and Krista may NOT be as they seem.

Thanks for the explanation Very Happy

Quote:

Same with Terror. According to this, it's only a physical manifestation of her that came in Felarya according to what Quantum said, which I don't think is what Moony intended with her.

Not necessary Terror can be in Felarya for another reason.

_________________
I can call the snows, and wind, and lightning. The trees may bend to me when I ask. The rivers may flow where I ask them to.
But I am granted these things because I ask , with respect in my heart, and I am willing to offer something in return. I request only the barest needs for myself and my people.

Sean Okotami · Subject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN! Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:25 pm

The huge ass paragraphs says demons can't appear in person in any mortal plane.

_________________
"I don't need an excuse to act or think." - Sean Okotami

gwadahunter2222 · Hero Posts: 1381 Join date: 2007-12-08 Age: 26

It said the existence of demons and angels in mortal plane is not the same in their homeworld. A demon can appear in a mortal land but not it's the same state in his homeworld Very Happy

The problem is here:

Quote:

As a general rule, the more powerful the demon and/or the more efficient it is with its energy, the longer it will be able to remain on a physical plane.

If we follow this rule only powerfull demon or angel can appear in the physical plane but low rank demons and angels can appear in Felarya too Very Happy

Terror is a powerfull demon so she has nothing to worry about her existence in the mortal plane.

The only person who had to worry was Menyssan because she's a low rank Succubus contrary to Arale.

But Quantum admit there are other possibilities Very Happy

_________________
I can call the snows, and wind, and lightning. The trees may bend to me when I ask. The rivers may flow where I ask them to.
But I am granted these things because I ask , with respect in my heart, and I am willing to offer something in return. I request only the barest needs for myself and my people.

TheQuantumMechanic · Subject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN! Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:17 am

Sean Okotami wrote:

According to this, it's only a physical manifestation of her that came in Felarya according to what Quantum said...

Incorrect; I said nothing of the sort.

Sean Okotami wrote:

The huge ass paragraphs says demons can't appear in person in any mortal plane.

Uh, no, it doesn't. Neutral

What the huge ass paragraphs say is this (short version): A demon who shows up on a physical plane is physically present there, but the entire being of the demon is NOT located solely in the physical plane.

It basically occupies space in the mortal plane, but also continues past it into another plane, because they are not native creatures of that plane. It is not a "physical manifestation of the demon", it is the actual demon herself... just not all of the demon. It's like you standing with one foot in a doorway and one foot outside. You're present in the room, but not all of you is.

Seriously, did I just not do a very good job of explaining how it works? confused

If not, please let me know so I can reword it for clarity. Points keep getting brought up that I thought were explained fairly clearly in the posts, but I guess not. Sad

_________________
"Common Sense tells us, 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it!'."
"Scientific Method tells us, 'If it isn't broken, break it and figure out how it works!'."
"Quantum Mechanics tells us, 'If it can be fixed, it isn't really broken!'."

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TheQuantumMechanic · Subject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN! Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:33 am

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

It said the existence of demons and angels in mortal plane is not the same in their homeworld. A demon can appear in a mortal land but not it's the same state in his homeworld Very Happy

Exactly.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

The problem is here:

Quote:

As a general rule, the more powerful the demon and/or the more efficient it is with its energy, the longer it will be able to remain on a physical plane.

I don't really see it as a problem; I made sure to leave plenty of loopholes in regards to angels and demons remaining on a physical realm for longer than normal periods of time, or even indefinitely. Instead of considering those possibilities and making use of one, people would rather come up with contradictions that the theory already takes into account, or read between the lines for things I never even said. sobsob

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

If we follow this rule only powerfull demon or angel can appear in the physical plane but low rank demons and angels can appear in Felarya too Very Happy

Even low-rank angels and demons would be able to appear in physical realms other than Felarya. Smile

"Stay on a physical plane for a limited time" doesn't mean that they're going to disappear three seconds after they get there; I was never trying to imply that. Rolling Eyes

It's just takes constant effort and is a drain on theim to stay in a physical plane, because they don't naturally exist in that state. Only the very weakest angelic or demonic creatures wouldn't be able to appear on a physical plane at all. Very Happy

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Terror is a powerfull demon so she has nothing to worry about her existence in the mortal plane.

Not familiar with Terror, will have to do research. But if she's a pretty powerful demon, then she likely has nothing to worry about, yes. Even less powerful angels and demons can get by just fine, they just have to come up with an alternate solution than relying on their own personal energy reserves.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

The only person who had to worry was Menyssan because she's a low rank Succubus contrary to Arale.

Actually, I'd think Menyssan would have even less to worry about than most really powerful demons. She's smart enough to have a contingency plan or two to fall back on, more than capable of pulling strings to arrange things in her favor, and... heck, I really wouldn't be surprised if she can turn her meals into energy; as voracious an eater as she is, she would have no trouble maintaining a high enough energy level to maintain in Felarya as long as she wanted (if that were the case). Laughing

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

But Quantum admit there are other possibilities Very Happy

Not just admitted, I flat out stated that there were other possibilities. So far, though, I really haven't seen a single thing brought up that this theory doesn't already cover, still waiting for someone to find a glaring discrepancy or hole. Smile

_________________
"Common Sense tells us, 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it!'."
"Scientific Method tells us, 'If it isn't broken, break it and figure out how it works!'."
"Quantum Mechanics tells us, 'If it can be fixed, it isn't really broken!'."

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Sean Okotami · Subject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN! Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:19 pm

Massive paragraphs are the base way to confuse me. And confusing me is so easy, you have no idea. x_x

_________________
"I don't need an excuse to act or think." - Sean Okotami

gwadahunter2222 · Hero Posts: 1381 Join date: 2007-12-08 Age: 26

Sean Okotami wrote:

Massive paragraphs are the base way to confuse me. And confusing me is so easy, you have no idea. x_x

That's why you should step back Very Happy

_________________
I can call the snows, and wind, and lightning. The trees may bend to me when I ask. The rivers may flow where I ask them to.
But I am granted these things because I ask , with respect in my heart, and I am willing to offer something in return. I request only the barest needs for myself and my people.