Tempestarii

gwadahunter2222 · Hero Posts: 1381 Join date: 2007-12-08 Age: 26

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

More to the point, "Cold" is actually not a type of energy, although it's convienent to use it as such for fictional purposes. "Cold" is actually a physical property, caused by a lack of heat within a system or object. In realistic (physical) terms, a fire elementalist would be able to "freeze" something just by drawing all the heat out of it, despite not being able to control the "element" of Ice.

It confirm a bit my point about the fact the concept of heat and cold, is not necessary linked to an element, and it's maybe the reason why the coldfire exist Very Happy

_________________
I can call the snows, and wind, and lightning. The trees may bend to me when I ask. The rivers may flow where I ask them to.
But I am granted these things because I ask , with respect in my heart, and I am willing to offer something in return. I request only the barest needs for myself and my people.

TheQuantumMechanic · Subject: Re: Tempestarii Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:42 pm

Sean Okotami wrote:

Besides, if you think about it, saying ice is 100% water is not very original. What if on Felarya, water and ice are actually two spearates things and not different phases? That would bring in more mystique to the world.

If that were the case, then you would not be able to melt ice into water, or freeze water into ice, because they would not be the same thing.

Water does not become Arsenic, no matter what temperature and/or amount of pressure you apply to it. "Arsenic" is not one of the physical phases of Water.

You can, however, make Water transition between Ice, Vapor, and (liquid) Water by applying different amounts heat and/or pressure to it. This is because Ice, Vapor, and liquid Water are all physical phases the substance "Water" can take. At a low enough pressure, water will boil itself at room temperature.

If Water and Ice were actually two seperate things like you suggested, no amount of pressure or temperature, or combination of the two would be capable of changing Water into Ice or Ice into Water. The same way no amount of temperature/pressure is enough to change a human into a dog.

Now, due to the unusual rules by which Felarya operates, it's certainly possible that there are certain places on Felarya where Water and Ice behave in this manner, but it is impossible for it to be a planet-wide thing. For waaaaay too many reasons to list; it would totally destroy the ecosystem and weather.

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Sean Okotami · Subject: Re: Tempestarii Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:47 pm

*sigh* Look, I said not going too much into nitpicking, just look at the top of the link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryokinetic It says less often water. Not all cryomancy is all about water, most is about freezing the water particle in the air because cold apply said pressure. It's possible that cryomancy which uses Ice Element has nothing to do with water, it simply creates ice on a specific target, which is why an ice beam sort of spell could work underwater because said water is not the target.

Let's not do this. Let's say cryokinetic doesn't depend on water all the time.

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TheQuantumMechanic · Subject: Re: Tempestarii Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:51 pm

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

It confirm a bit my point about the fact the concept of heat and cold, is not necessary linked to an element, and it's maybe the reason why the coldfire exist Very Happy

Indeed.

I have a few theories about that myself, but I agree with you, heat and cold are just properties themselves, and not actual elements. One of the properties of the element of "Fire" is "Heat", but that does not mean that Fire is merely Heat; the same is true for the element of Ice and property of Cold.

The reason I think Coldfire is able to harm Elementals is because it is not the same thing as "Elemental Fire" or "Elemental Ice"; it's more a seperate, unique element that just happens to resemble the other two, with different properties than Fire and Ice. Ice Elementals are not immune to Coldfire simply because they're not "Coldfire Elementals", basically... it's not really "their element". Very Happy

_________________
"Common Sense tells us, 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it!'."
"Scientific Method tells us, 'If it isn't broken, break it and figure out how it works!'."
"Quantum Mechanics tells us, 'If it can be fixed, it isn't really broken!'."

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Sean Okotami · Subject: Re: Tempestarii Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:55 pm

I always pictured Coldfire as being an ice attack at the Absolute Zero. Hence why it would harm even Ice Elementals, nothing can survive at Absolute Zero temperature.

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"I don't need an excuse to act or think." - Sean Okotami

TheQuantumMechanic · Subject: Re: Tempestarii Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:01 pm

Sean Okotami wrote:

*sigh* Look, I said not going too much into nitpicking, just look at the top of the link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryokinetic It says less often water. Not all cryomancy is all about water, most is about freezing the water particle in the air because cold apply said pressure. It's possible that cryomancy which uses Ice Element has nothing to do with water, it simply creates ice on a specific target, which is why an ice beam sort of spell could work underwater because said water is not the target.

Let's not do this. Let's say cryokinetic doesn't depend on water all the time.

You're jumping to conclusions again.

If you go back and read what we actually said, it was acknowledged that not all water elementalists can control ice and not all ice elementalists can control water. Some water elementalists make no distinction at all between the "elements" of Ice and Water; some other elementalists do.

Ice, Water, and Steam are the same thing. This is an indisputable fact; they just are not seperate "things", unless you are specifically referring to them as such, or some external factor makes it so. The reason an "Ice Elementalist" can only control Ice is because his or her magic only works on "water in the form of ice", which is what comprises the Ice Element. Likewise, under an elemental system that recognizes Water as a seperate element from Ice, the element of Water might be defined as "water in every form except ice", explaining why a water elementalist can not control ice.

It's the magic that makes that particular distinction, not the laws of physics. On Felarya, that might change in certain places (Like a glacial plain where ice never melts, and never transforms into water), but it is impossible for it to be the way the planet operates on a global scale. It would just require way too much explanation for every little natural process that occurs.

_________________
"Common Sense tells us, 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it!'."
"Scientific Method tells us, 'If it isn't broken, break it and figure out how it works!'."
"Quantum Mechanics tells us, 'If it can be fixed, it isn't really broken!'."

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Sean Okotami · Subject: Re: Tempestarii Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:04 pm

What about forming icicles in your hands? There aren't ice in front of you until you create it out of thin air.

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Sean Okotami · Subject: Re: Tempestarii Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:08 pm

Look, let's come to an understanding alright? Hydromancers can have limited control over ice, but are much better at using water. Likewise, cryomancers can have limited control over water, but are much better at using ice. Is that okay with you?

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gwadahunter2222 · Hero Posts: 1381 Join date: 2007-12-08 Age: 26

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Indeed.

I have a few theories about that myself, but I agree with you, heat and cold are just properties themselves, and not actual elements. One of the properties of the element of "Fire" is "Heat", but that does not mean that Fire is merely Heat; the same is true for the element of Ice and property of Cold.

The reason I think Coldfire is able to harm Elementals is because it is not the same thing as "Elemental Fire" or "Elemental Ice"; it's more a seperate, unique element that just happens to resemble the other two, with different properties than Fire and Ice. Ice Elementals are not immune to Coldfire simply because they're not "Coldfire Elementals", basically... it's not really "their element". Very Happy

In many anime, manga and fiction I like the guy who say he is a master of fire, and shows the many properties of the fire by example he can burn one person without burning everything, or the fire don't burn it.

Or the holy fire or the fire of the demons is still for me one of the properties of the fire and we are still in fire manipulation.

A creature who is very experienced in one element can defeat without any problem someone who use many elements or using the same element.

Because a generalist is versatile he can switch an element to another but it doesn't know all the strenght of the weakness of the element. If he meets a problem with an element he switch to another and if it doesn't work he changes again.

A true master know all his strenght and weakness and how to use them depending the situation Very Happy

Edit:

Sean Okotami wrote:

What about forming icicles in your hands? There aren't ice in front of you until you create it out of thin air.

When someone create an icicles, he can use the molecules of water inside the atmosphere it slowly freeze, using a cold wind or his own energy.

But it's a manipulation of temperature and pressure to transform the water.

Please, avoid double post Very Happy

_________________
I can call the snows, and wind, and lightning. The trees may bend to me when I ask. The rivers may flow where I ask them to.
But I am granted these things because I ask , with respect in my heart, and I am willing to offer something in return. I request only the barest needs for myself and my people.

Sean Okotami · Subject: Re: Tempestarii Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:21 pm

Gwada, did you read the little understanding I made so we can both agrees on one hand?

_________________
"I don't need an excuse to act or think." - Sean Okotami

TheQuantumMechanic · Subject: Re: Tempestarii Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:21 pm

Sean Okotami wrote:

I always pictured Coldfire as being an ice attack at the Absolute Zero.

"Absolute Zero" is a relative term; there is absolutely nothing special about Absolute Zero. It's more of a theoretical concept than a specified point of temperature; scientists actually hold meetings to agree on an international definition for Absolute Zero, and it's changed a few times. The term gets overused way too much because it's something that sounds catchy, but it's really an arbitrary point; we can't even cool any substance on Earth to the point that all energy within it remains motionless, so it's entirely a theoretical concept.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Hence why it would harm even Ice Elementals, nothing can survive at Absolute Zero temperature.

Look up the Tardigrade (more commonly known as the Water Bear). Not only are they a living organism, they can survive at 1 degree above Absolute Zero (it's impossible to reach Absolute Zero, so we'll never know if they can survive that) and in a total vacuum. Very Happy

Sean Okotami wrote:

What about forming icicles in your hands? There aren't ice in front of you until you create it out of thin air.

Okay... and? You can either do it, in which case there are dozens of possible explanations of how you can accomplish it; or you can't, in which case the question is irrelevant. If you're wanting to know ways it can be done, three off the top of my head are:

1) A connection to an Elemental Plane of Ice, allowing you to "channel" the Ice Element and create it no matter where you are (even in the middle of a desert).

2) The ability to control temperature. If you lower the temperature of the air around your hands enough, you're eventually going to condense and freeze the moisture in the air into ice. You might not be able to do anything with it while it's still water vapor, but once it becomes solid, it becomes part of your element.

3) The magic does it itself, even if it's a matter of transmuting raw magical energy into elemental energy. All you do is cast the "Icicle Spell" and the magic takes care of the rest.

It all depends on how the system of magic you're using operates; without more details, I can only offer generic guesses. Neutral

_________________
"Common Sense tells us, 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it!'."
"Scientific Method tells us, 'If it isn't broken, break it and figure out how it works!'."
"Quantum Mechanics tells us, 'If it can be fixed, it isn't really broken!'."

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Sean Okotami · Subject: Re: Tempestarii Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:26 pm

Sean Okotami wrote:

Look, let's come to an understanding alright? Hydromancers can have limited control over ice, but are much better at using water. Likewise, cryomancers can have limited control over water, but are much better at using ice. Is that okay with you?

_________________
"I don't need an excuse to act or think." - Sean Okotami

gwadahunter2222 · Hero Posts: 1381 Join date: 2007-12-08 Age: 26

Sean Okotami wrote:

Gwada, did you read the little understanding I made so we can both agrees on one hand?

I'm not agree with you, ice is a state of water, what you call ice magic It's a manipulation of heat and cold whih don't depend on the element.

You can freeze someone by using fire, earth, air but not necessary water Sad

The verity you are talking are true in certain condition but not all the time.

What Quantum tries to tell you all the explanation is not an absolute verity and I agree with him for that.

It doesn't exist absolute verity Very Happy

_________________
I can call the snows, and wind, and lightning. The trees may bend to me when I ask. The rivers may flow where I ask them to.
But I am granted these things because I ask , with respect in my heart, and I am willing to offer something in return. I request only the barest needs for myself and my people.

TheQuantumMechanic · Subject: Re: Tempestarii Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:34 pm

Sean Okotami wrote:

Look, let's come to an understanding alright? Hydromancers can have limited control over ice, but are much better at using water. Likewise, cryomancers can have limited control over water, but are much better at using ice. Is that okay with you?

Oi. No, it's not. Neutral

Stop thinking in absolutes. There is no rigidly defined "Hydromancer" class that all Water elementalists fall into, or "Cryomancer" class that all Ice elementalists fall into. There just isn't any such thing, and trying to force ALL elementalists to operate strictly by one set of rules is counter productive.

Cryomancers can be considered a type of Ice Elementalist. Hydromancers can be considered a type of Water Elementalist. This does not mean that "Ice Elementalist" automatically equals "Cryomancer", or that "Water Elementalist" equates to "Hydromancer". That is fallacious logic.

You can have two Water Elementalists sitting in a bar in Negav, and one of them can control water and ice, while the other one can't even exert the tiniest control over ice at all. It's a matter of how their systems of magic work, and has nothing to do with whether or not they're Hydromancers or Cryomancers. They might not even use those terms; Elementalist A might be an Aqua Mage, while Elementalist B might be a River Shaman.

Your paradigm for elemental magic is only valid for those that use or exist within that system; and it just doesn't apply to those who exist outside of it, or use another system of magic. That's why you can't force it onto everything like a sort of global template; there's just too many things that work differently for it to apply to everything. It is not "wrong" for your characters, but it also might not be "right" for other characters.

Do you see what we mean? scratch

_________________
"Common Sense tells us, 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it!'."
"Scientific Method tells us, 'If it isn't broken, break it and figure out how it works!'."
"Quantum Mechanics tells us, 'If it can be fixed, it isn't really broken!'."

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Sean Okotami · Subject: Re: Tempestarii Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:34 pm

I just said, if we are to avoid cryomancers and hydromancers to be carbon copies of each other, they can learn the other school of magic, but can't master it.

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"I don't need an excuse to act or think." - Sean Okotami