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Asuroth Seasoned adventurer


Posts: 120 Join date: 2009-03-24 Age: 23 Location: Your guess is as good as mine...the computer
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Fri May 01, 2009 6:13 am | |
| The Felaryan world does follow logic, though it's very fantasy based a lot of thought is put into the various species to try to make it more interesting- things would get pretty boring if everything just ran on magic purely. Many of the species particular niches are not just to eat humans to satisfy the vore fantasy here, its a world where things are uncertain and the many kinds of species interact een preying on each other through a logical order of predator and prey. That probably was not worded the best way but the point stands that the creatures designed here try to follow some logic in that they inherit traits of the species they were based on for the most part with other features added to blend into the world more- Felarya is a crazy place so crazy adaptions come into play. Anyways I apologize for even further detracting from this thread and move to get back on topic, that being said I am fully in favor of more Nagas having more distinct snake like features. One idea that comes to mind is a Naga whose style is heavily focused on the snake portion and reflects this: key points being it retains more of the snake senses mentioned far earlier in this thread but as a trade off loses a lot if not all of its magic abilities that are very present in the current nagas. Reasoning behind this kind of naga would be as the Predator Sense seems to be based on the levels of magic within a creature, these kinds of naga lack a focus in magic to hide from the predator sense to a degree to hunt more equal sized prey. Another idea just to toss in the air is of some Naga species to appear even more snake like- instead of a giantess upper body it could be scaled still for instance and hell for a step further maybe even a serpentine head, a kind of breed in between giant snakes themselves and the Nagas we know. That's it for my two cents for now, if possible I'd prefer to keep this as flame free as can be. Each side has brought up very valid points with Felarya being fantasy based and having a great deal of mystery and danger to it along with very logically inspired predators and creatures to add some realism to this world and make it more entertaining. Mixing these two things up can result in some pretty damn cool ideas. |
|  | | rcs619 Moderator

Posts: 372 Join date: 2008-04-07 Age: 21 Location: Hanging out with Fiona in the Bulvon Wood
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Fri May 01, 2009 6:20 am | |
| | Quote: | Whiteagle: I'm sorry I have to do this after Hunter has been trying to get you calmed down, but... *Leg sweeps Gregole's broken Pedestal out from under him and pins him with a leg smash in one smooth move. Because THIS IS IMAGINATION LAND CREATOR FRACK IT!!!*
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Okay, first of all, if you want to be taken seriously THIS is not how you start off a response. Second of all, have some damn respect for an elder member of the community. Gregole has been around a good while and has done a LOT for this community. You wouldnt act like such a child to Karbo or Zoekin, would you?
| Quote: | Whiteagle: You can NOT go around baking at peoples lack of Science in a Fantasy Realm built upon Vore Fetishism. I am trying to obtain my Geo-science Major so I can HOPEFULLY become a Paleontologist some day While I may not have any real training in the area, I can tell you that not even "Pseudoscience" can be used to explain most, if not ALL, of Felaryain Biology.
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Well, im a senior in college going for my biological science major myself, so I like to think I know a bit about the natural world too. Actually, most of Felaryan wildlife is based on real animals in some way or another, and most of us do try to think up legitimate reasons for how and why things work. We want Felarya to be a natural, "real" world...not some place you just plop things into and say "well...I dont know how this works, but it does". Everything from the nature of Felarya's dimensional plane, to how Dryads work has been discussed at some point. Karbo has a great intrest in flushing these ideas out, even if he hasnt added them to the wiki yet, and he has encouraged the discussion of them...hence the reason for an IDEAS FORUM.
| Quote: | Especially Naga!!! Even excluding the fact you have to throw out a certain something called the Square-Cubed Law, |
Its been established that the square-cubed law doesnt apply because of the extra-dimensional nature of Felarya. We didnt just "throw it out" we made up a decent sounding reason for it not being a factor in things.
| Quote: | things scientifically wrong with the Naga race. For one, they are NOT Cold Blooded Animals.
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Its not just nagas. Mermaids and the arthropod hybrids should be cold-blooded as well, since fish and insects and such, are not warm-blooded in real life. A creature that big cant be cold-blooded and function well. Odds are, they're warm-blooded since their heart and the main portion of their circulatory system resides in their human half, which probably influences how it works. They arent the first giant, warm-blooded reptiles, its generally accepted that dinosaurs were warm-blooded.
| Quote: | It's their growth rate. From what I have seen, Felaryan Naga can go from 600 lbs and 6 ft tall... to what I can assume is 300 short tons and 60 ft tall... in UNDER A YEAR!!!
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Actually, nagas take a long time to grow. Look at Crisis, she's 60 years old and is only the equivalent of 19 years old. Since most people age to about 26 or so before the healing properties of Felarya prevent any further aging, Crisis may still have a slight bit of growing left to do, actually. And a full-sized naga would be well over 600 tons ^^
| Quote: | | Frack, even if Brachiosaurus was Warm Blooded, it would have still taken 10 years to reach its' average LENGTH of 83 ft and weight of 35 short tons. |
LOOK at the ages of the characters in the wiki. They're OLD. many of them border of a 100 years or so. They dont grow up quickly. They take much longer to reach maturity than humans. ....and for the record, its generally accepted that Dinosaurs WERE warm-blooded.
| Quote: | And this brings up another very obvious flaw in Naga design... their Metabolism. A (Warm-Blooded mind you) Brachiosaurus would need to consume 400 lbs of biomass per day!!! From what I've seen, a Felaryan Naga can sustain itself on 5 human beings or equivalent a day... Now let's say an average human weighs 168 lbs... so a Naga needs around 840 lbs of Biomass per day. Sounds reasonable at first, what with protein and fats being a far better source of calories and all... But a Brachiosaurus eats 400 lbs and is 83 ft TOTAL in length, where as a Felaryan Naga such as Vivian STANDS 85 ft tall and is several times that in total body length. Plus, a Naga is easily has an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE on a Brachiosaurus in body mass!!! And the FOOD!!! Brachiosaurus was a herbivore, where as Naga are predators. One doesn't need to expend energy to hunt, where as the other goes out of its' way to obtain prey that is several orders of magnitude smaller then themselves. If you can not see what's wrong with that picture, think of it this way: Wolves do not eat mice and they certainly don't eat sparrows. The reason they don't is because they would burn off more calories trying to catch this prey then what would be obtained eating them.
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Actually, the 5 human thing is an absolute minimum to survive. There is a difference between surviving...and being full and happy. I imagine even that would lead to them losing weight. Most nagas, and predators in general eat a lot more food than the minimum and they eat a lot more than humans. Small animals, fruit, fish...its all on the predator's diet. ...and dammit, Dinosaurs ARE warm-blooded! lol
| Quote: | A NET LOSS of energy, compared to the net gain that could be obtained by eating something closer to their own size. And on top of that, Naga are as intelligent (If not more so) then a human being, meaning they'd need EVEN MORE calories to fuel those big beautiful brains of theirs! Here is something you can try at home to see my point: Go buy a case of live mice, release them all over a large area, and try to survive by only eating 5 of them per day. Now imagine doing that while being 11 ft tube of almost pure muscle from the waist down. That is what it would be like to be a Giant Naga. And you would be DEAD after two weeks from starvation.
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Technically, you'd die of dehydration long before those two weeks pass.
| Quote: | Going by any thing that can be remotely called Logic, all Giant Naga in Felarya would have to be: -A LOT slower growing -A LOT closer in ratio of size to what it ate -A LOT Dumber Putting that together... we'd get something analogous to a giant snake with arms... yeah, REAL SEXY right there. |
- Nagas take DECADES longer than humans to reach maturity. Crisis is 60, she's the equivalent of 19. Do the math. - Most nagas CAN eat larger things, they just choose not to, due to the abundance of small prey. - Umm....intelligence is not a factor in size and metabolism. Look at all the adventurers that get eaten. They're fucking morons.
Okay, to be fair...Gregole probably would still think that version of a naga was still sexy =P
| Quote: | Now you may wonder how I, as a Man of Science, can tolerate Giant Naga better then GREGOLE. The Answer is simple, I know Naga... RUN ON MAGIC!!!
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Okay...first of all. You want to be a paleontologist, and you apparently dont know that dinosaurs were warm-blooded. Hell, I learned that from watching Jurassic Park. Im starting to seriously doubt the whole...man of science thing.
...and....no...nagas dont run on magic. That is the exact kind of logic we avoid in Felarya. Sure, we all know that Felarya is a magic rich environment, but that magic is an integral part of the ecosystem. It sustains nature, it doesn't replace it.
Just because you could say "Magic did it" doesnt mean that you should. That is just lazy, uncaring writing.
| Quote: | Frack, it's why I think it would be easy to explain that Naga digestion doesn't actually DIGEST you. If Naga digestion used some sort of portal that gives off large amounts of energy when something Sentient goes through, then it would be far more Bioenergetically favorable.
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Umm...no...just....NO. When you are eaten, you are digested. You go down the esophagus, and into the stomach where you are broken down by large quantities of hydrochloric acid and digetive enzymes. People DIE in Felarya, deal with it. Part of the charm of Felarya is the danger and tension. Not only does your little thoery make no sense, it completely ignores the basic principles of Felarya. You get eaten...you die. That is jsut how it is.
Sooooooooo...in closing, thank you for giving me a reason to rant and pick something apart. Even I like a good rant every once in a while ^^. My advice to you, whiteagle is to... ONE: Read the wiki TWO: Respect elder community members THREE: Dont post a wall of text and claim to be a man of science when you dont know what you're talking about._________________ My Stories, Drawings and Stuff: http://rcs619.deviantart.com/> "Go then. There are other worlds than these." - John "Jake" Chambers > "Something strange is going on in this land of magic and giant, topless, flesh-eating animal-women!" ~ GREGOLE |
|  | | Jætte_Troll Friend of the Jotun


Posts: 1601 Join date: 2009-02-03
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Fri May 01, 2009 6:39 am | |
| Yeah...learn to listen to the big folk here. They made this land. You can't just walk in and start telling them how it is. We also like respect here. The last punk kid to annoy us...remember cookeaw? Do you know where he is now? See that pile of naga droppings....? _________________ "Out yonder, under the shining vault, among men the saying goes: “Man, be thyself!” At home here with us, ’mid the tribe of the trolls, the saying goes: “Troll, to thyself be—enough!”"
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|  | | Whiteagle Roaming thug


Posts: 88 Join date: 2009-04-19
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Fri May 01, 2009 6:54 am | |
| All very good points rcs619. A big flaw in my arguments were the fact that I was going off information from Wikis. Both Wikipedia AND the Felarya wiki I'm afraid... Sauropoda isn't really my fortay (I prefer Theropoda Predators myself, BECAUSE REX WANTS TO HUNT!!!! Ok... he'd rather be fed... BUT HE COULD HUNT!!!), but I needed a Real World animal NEAR a Giant Naga's weight class. And really... the Felarya Wiki doesn't HAVE anything on the amount of food a Naga eats or how fast their maturation is. The only real source I had on either of those were the Stories of Rin and Katrika, both of which make reference to a "Growth Cycle" that only seems to last a few months. But this was not the real point I was trying to make.
The point I was trying to make is that this is a Fantasy World. GREGOLE goes on and on about people "Forgetting" the "Animal" half of Felarya Predators, which is quite frankly a load of Minotaur... People WILL make their Giant Naga the way they want to make their Giant Naga. Or Dridder. Or Ice Cow-taur with six Udder-Breasts on their Human Half which shoot out 24 different flavors of Ice Cream.
And yes, I know that last one wouldn't fit, but that doesn't mean someone won't try it! |
|  | | Flare Temple scourge


Posts: 722 Join date: 2008-04-15 Age: 25 Location: California
 | |  | | Whiteagle Roaming thug


Posts: 88 Join date: 2009-04-19
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Fri May 01, 2009 7:27 am | |
| | Flare wrote: | | You know...if you're going to be a Geo-science Major, I'm pretty sure you can bring up better sources then wikis. |
I haven't gotten around to taking "Introduction to Dinosaurs" yet... just "The Evolution and History of Life". "Evolution" is taught by a Cnidarian Paleontologist, nice lady, but screwed up the first land Vertebrates... which my Lab's Teaching Assistant called her out on. And really, Geo-science is more focused on things like "Geology", "Mineralogy", and "Petrology". I could have also gone and read through half a dozen sources (Ironically referenced BY Wikipedia), but for a spur of the moment Wall 'o Text written at a time when I SHOULD be sleeping, it would have been going a BIT overboard. |
|  | | observer88 Marauder of the deep jungle


Posts: 377 Join date: 2007-12-10 Age: 21 Location: Oradea, Romania
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Fri May 01, 2009 7:43 am | |
| | rcs619 wrote: |
| Quote: | It's their growth rate. From what I have seen, Felaryan Naga can go from 600 lbs and 6 ft tall... to what I can assume is 300 short tons and 60 ft tall... in UNDER A YEAR!!!
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Actually, nagas take a long time to grow. Look at Crisis, she's 60 years old and is only the equivalent of 19 years old. Since most people age to about 26 or so before the healing properties of Felarya prevent any further aging, Crisis may still have a slight bit of growing left to do, actually. And a full-sized naga would be well over 600 tons ^^
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Please look up Rin's Adventures by randomdude678, especially part 9, which repeatedly mentions a "growth cycle". From what I can tell, it can take a relatively short time, though Rin herself has grown by magical means (parts 12-13) |
|  | | gwadahunter2222 Hero


Posts: 1381 Join date: 2007-12-08 Age: 26
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Fri May 01, 2009 1:35 pm | |
| Just a little remark about the word "logic", when you program computer and software you understand better his meaning. Logic consist to link different elements in a consistence ways however depending of the universe you are it can change. That's why in mathematics 1+1 = 2 is not always true. Concerning an ice naga, it would be illogic for me since the moment we are on Earth where the physical and biological laws are clearly known. It would require strong and solid explanation from the author of the story to convince me. So ice reptile which was appeared on Earth, yes it can be illogic. Now an ice naga in Felarya, is it illogic ? No, assuming there is creature able to size shift, giant hybrids human animal, the world is cross world between many dimension,there is magic too and we are not on Earth. I deduce this thing we can find a part of the physical laws on Earth but not only that, it's obvious many creature on Felarya are build in different way than creature we fin in Earth. So let's return to an ice naga, the sentence should not be it's illogic but how is it possible?, so if the magic of Felarya affected the cold-blooded nature of an ice naga, how? Do the elemental affinity is behind that, maybe? So, knowing what I know about snake and magic, there is a possibility the affinity with ice play a role about how a naga can live in a cold environment. Do they use the ambient cold to be active as the opposite as the other naga, so in very hot place like Pyrale mountains they will be less active or does their metabolism work differently as the naga with the affinities of fire instead of emit heat they emit cold. And if I remember it's possible to be burned by ice. So guys please about magic, Quantum give a characterization and a good explanation on magic you can find in Felarya and this guy knows science as good as everyone. As I asked to people when they use magic in this story I want just a clear and consistent definition of the role the magic in the story. Conclusion, Felarya follows a logic but it doesn't mean it follows at 100% the logic of science of the modern on Earth. _________________ I can call the snows, and wind, and lightning. The trees may bend to me when I ask. The rivers may flow where I ask them to. But I am granted these things because I ask , with respect in my heart, and I am willing to offer something in return. I request only the barest needs for myself and my people.
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|  | | GREGOLE Survivor


Posts: 918 Join date: 2007-12-09 Age: 19 Location: Heckville
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 pm | |
| | Quote: | | Conclusion, Felarya follows a logic but it doesn't mean it follows at 100% the logic of science of the modern on Earth. |
Thankyou!
THAT is what I'm trying to get at. Realism and logic are not the same thing.
Now, regarding ice nagas...
If we do treat the whole elemental magic thing as something that varies between individual nagas rather than different species, then the concept of an ice naga is a lot easier for me to swallow.
I could indeed see an ice naga migrating to a cold climate because it would be more comfortable there. In that sense, there could be a small population of ice nagas that could be logically incorporated into the ecosystem.
The problem is, if we do this, then there's the issue of elemental magic varying by individual. In other words, an ice naga's offspring wouldn't necessarily share their elemental affinity, and would probably be considerably less comfortable in the cold.
So, looking at it from that perspective, I could definitely see ice nagas existing. The problem is that they would have to be treated like individuals and not a species. More akin to humans of a certain hair color than a certain ethnicity. _________________ "Also I agree with Gregole. He's always right."
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|  | | Jætte_Troll Friend of the Jotun


Posts: 1601 Join date: 2009-02-03
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 pm | |
| Hmm...so are we suggesting a different specie(s) of naga than these ones? Sort of a "feral" naga, with much more snake like attributes, but without much innate magical ability? That sort of raises interesting points on other predators... _________________ "Out yonder, under the shining vault, among men the saying goes: “Man, be thyself!” At home here with us, ’mid the tribe of the trolls, the saying goes: “Troll, to thyself be—enough!”"
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|  | | gwadahunter2222 Hero


Posts: 1381 Join date: 2007-12-08 Age: 26
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Fri May 01, 2009 5:57 pm | |
| | GREGOLE wrote: | I could indeed see an ice naga migrating to a cold climate because it would be more comfortable there. In that sense, there could be a small population of ice nagas that could be logically incorporated into the ecosystem.
The problem is, if we do this, then there's the issue of elemental magic varying by individual. In other words, an ice naga's offspring wouldn't necessarily share their elemental affinity, and would probably be considerably less comfortable in the cold.
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Regarding the issue of the elemental magic it can be seen in a similar way of the existence of the elemental. To be simple the elemental affinities vary due to an adaptation or maybe it will be proper to say how the element is favoured by the environment of the area where the naga is. In area like Pyrale mountains it's fire which is favoured, so it's normal to see most of the naga living or coming from this area have an affinities with fire, and for the ice naga it's the same case.
So in more general area where you can find a great variety of the elements where none are favoured for example in the place where Crisis and Anna live it works differently. In clear, naga can be a nature type , her sister can water type, as her father was an earth type, her mother was a wind type and one of her brother or sister have affinities with none and magic in general and lives in a Feral way.
So as you can see the element affinities can be seen as an influence or reaction to the special environment of Felarya, maybe it explain why Crisis and Anna as two different element as there is a possibility they share the same DNA and in some way sisters of course it's a pure speculation from me 
It's something a naga acquire edpending her element it's not necessary innate. _________________ I can call the snows, and wind, and lightning. The trees may bend to me when I ask. The rivers may flow where I ask them to. But I am granted these things because I ask , with respect in my heart, and I am willing to offer something in return. I request only the barest needs for myself and my people.
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|  | | Asuroth Seasoned adventurer


Posts: 120 Join date: 2009-03-24 Age: 23 Location: Your guess is as good as mine...the computer
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Fri May 01, 2009 6:43 pm | |
| | Jætte_Troll wrote: | | Hmm...so are we suggesting a different specie(s) of naga than these ones? Sort of a "feral" naga, with much more snake like attributes, but without much innate magical ability? That sort of raises interesting points on other predators... |
It was more of a spur of the moment kind of idea since all the talk about more aspects to predators relating to the species they came from were brought up. On a side note I was wondering if that post was even noticed at all heh. The idea of more feral versions of these predators could be very interesting to say the least perhaps in less known and dangerous areas such as deeper Felarya and further north where there is still a lot of mystery. Not to say they'd be the dominant kind of life form but still a new type that could be introduced into this world or something. |
|  | | Jætte_Troll Friend of the Jotun


Posts: 1601 Join date: 2009-02-03
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Fri May 01, 2009 7:06 pm | |
| I'm wondering...would there be "feral" versions of other predators, with less magic? Is magic some how related to the intelligence and "humanness" of the classic Felaryan predator?  _________________ "Out yonder, under the shining vault, among men the saying goes: “Man, be thyself!” At home here with us, ’mid the tribe of the trolls, the saying goes: “Troll, to thyself be—enough!”"
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|  | | Asuroth Seasoned adventurer


Posts: 120 Join date: 2009-03-24 Age: 23 Location: Your guess is as good as mine...the computer
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Fri May 01, 2009 8:12 pm | |
| Hmm well I see how that could have been viewed like that but it wasn't my intention...so sorry if I came across that the human part was special like that and stuff. What I meant was just a type more akin to the attributes brought up, in this case the snakes and their sometimes cannabilistic nature- which led me to thinking of how they would best accomplish this, one way would be to try to avoid the predator sense so less magic for less ability to be detected. By all means these kinds of predators could still hold the characteristics of the current nagas, just wanted to point out a way for them to better be able to fill their role. |
|  | | GREGOLE Survivor


Posts: 918 Join date: 2007-12-09 Age: 19 Location: Heckville
 | Subject: Re: Downplaying the snake Sat May 02, 2009 8:21 pm | |
| | Quote: | | Hmm...so are we suggesting a different specie(s) of naga than these ones? Sort of a "feral" naga, with much more snake like attributes, but without much innate magical ability? That sort of raises interesting points on other predators... |
Not exactly.
What I'm suggesting is how to up-play the snake elements the same ways harpies, dryads, mermaids, dridders, sphinxes and the like have played up their animal halves.
What I suggest is to break down the "basic" naga species into various species modeled after real snakes.
Moony already invented Cobranagas - which no one ever uses. Tora invented sea krait nagas - also which no one ever uses. RCS' nagas tend to be based on real snake species and have abilities according.
I suggest some naga species modeled after real snakes and designed for different environments, just like all the other chimera species.
We would have sea snake and sea krait nagas in the oceans. Cobra and constrictor nagas in the jungles. Viper nagas in the deserts - I recommend the vipers be given forked tongues, seeing as how of all snakes, odd sensory details are most assosciated with vipers, and anaconda nagas in the marshes. Grasslands would have garter, king and viper nagas.
You know, basically what we're doing with all the other chimera species. Where the others have been branching out into all new species, nagas have been prettymuch confined to their elements defining them. This is bad, seeing as how the elemental affinity is an individual thing, not a racial one. _________________ "Also I agree with Gregole. He's always right."
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