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 Who should I be sympathizing with again?

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itsmeyouidiot
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PostSubject: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:32 pm

Am I the only one who seems really freaking confused that all of the man-eating characters also happen to be really nice otherwise? I know that it's probably intentional, but it's getting to the point where I have no idea who I should be sympathizing with.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:42 pm

that is part of the point.

the idea is that the predators who eat people are kind and cute so they become humanized. people you can sympathize with, but at the same time you sympathize with the prey because they're also humanized as well.

I think it gives emphasis that all creatures, although not human, still have personalities and lives so you don't say "oh that naga is the enemy! we must destroy him/her!" while even though one would be trying to do that anyway, it becomes easier to see them as people.

I think it's kind of hard to explain, so let me know if you're still confused. I'm sure Karbo, Fish, Silent Eric, GREGOLE, rcs619 could all explain better, but this is how it looks to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:43 pm

itsmeyouidiot wrote:
Am I the only one who seems really freaking confused that all of the man-eating characters also happen to be really nice otherwise? I know that it's probably intentional, but it's getting to the point where I have no idea who I should be sympathizing with.


Congratulations, welcome to Felarya. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:47 pm

Oldman40k3003 wrote:
Congratulations, welcome to Felarya. :Razz:

that is the shortest summary to what I have said I thought possible. unless you just wanna say "thats felarya" I think that may be shorter.
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GREGOLE
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:57 pm

You should sympathize with who you choose.

A man-eating predator can be sympathetic. It's just that Sturgeon's Law is in full effect, so 90% of the stories that try to make this so fall flat on their face and make you feel like this community is full of complete and utter screwheads who fail writing forever and make you feel genuinely guilty for finding some of that crap semi-arousing.

Well, for me, anyway.


Who you're supposed to sympathize with is entirely up to you. I recommend some writers who don't try to force sympathy onto utterly unlikable characters, however.


Or... look, just read whoever the next few guys recommend. I'm gonna start ranting if I keep this up.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:12 am

GREGOLE wrote:
You should sympathize with who you choose.

This.

Myself, I don't usually sympathize with predators, though I like some of them - maybe it's the whole "not being in voraephilia" thing. Many people have read and heard me say - out of this community - how scary some of my own Felaryan characters are. That's because I've written stories that somehow fit the setting, but made them in a way that you could choose whoever you sympathize with. And strangely enough, it had some effect on me. xD

The thing is that there are authors that go straight for making their predators sympathetic, others just get it by mistake - I would dare to say that's my case xD -, others just don't think nor are bothered about it... Authors in this community are of some variety, so not all predators will be charming, not all preys will be bastards who deserve it...

But as Gregole said, it's up to you in the end.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:06 am

Archmage Bael put it well. Felaryan predators are people, complex individuals like any others. Some are thoroughly unpleasant, but many are 'ordinary' people who are quite capable of kindness, sympathy, pity, gentleness, and so on. The archetype, of course, is Crisis, who in many ways has a heart of gold, but who happily devours humans because she views them as tasty, wriggly treats rather than as 'real' people. Many predators have a certain "innocence" about them, which is one of the essential aspects Karbo brought into Felarya when he created it - and which happens to be something I very much like, too. Many predators are "innocent" in the sense that they genuinely see nothing wrong in eating humans.

In that sense, if something unpleasant happens to an "innocent" predator, it's quite possible to sympathise with her, because it's difficult to feel that she "deserves" something bad to happen to her.

In general, I try to create sympathy for prey characters in my stories, but I don't present predators as monsters. To put it simply, just because the prey is a "good" character doesn't mean the predator trying to eat him is "bad".

In Felarya, it's perfectly possible -and indeed quite common- for "good" characters to eat other "good" characters.

Or to put it another way, you don't have to choose between sympathising for the prey or with the predator. In some cases, you can sympathise with both.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:58 am

I don't sympathize with anyone who eats sentients.

If it's a human eating tinies then I would have no pity for them. If it's a fairy who won't eat humans or nekos, or tinies, etc., then I would seriously sympathize.

I sympathize the most with Felaryan vegetarians.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:54 pm

I don't simply choose to side with 'predator' or 'prey'. I have this list, everyone has a place on it.
The higher you are on my list, the more I would prefer to see you escape or have a tasty meal, whichever the case may be.

1. Innocents - Those poor unfortunate people who have no idea of Felarya's existence, much less the dangers it poses. They are the ones who got sucked into a random dimensional rift or dropped off via vanishing land. These people had no choice. They just went out camping with their family and woke up in a jungle watching their loved ones being swallowed alive by a giant snake-woman. A horribly undeserved fate.

2. Hungry predator - They're just trying to survive like everything else. A girl's gotta eat, and if she's gotta eat YOU, well, no hard feelings. It doesn't bother me at all for a predator to have a full squirming belly, so long as it's not squirming with the innocents mentioned above.

3. Scouting parties - The first crew from a new world to set foot on Felarya. They don't understand its dangers, but they came willingly into an unknown world. Now they face the consequences of coming without adequate preparation. If you make it back alive, be sure to remind everyone back home to do more research whenever they open a portal to a strange planet.

4. Wildlife - Non-sentient creatures. Like insects and carnivorous plants.

5. Adventurers - They risk the Felaryan wilderness knowing full well the danger it possesses. They already know their place on the food chain here, and arrogantly believe that they can handle it. So don't come crying to me when you're being digested. You were asking for it. You were fair game.

6. Sadistic predator - She's not even hungry. She's hunting you for fun. So she can play with you. Torment you. Just for entertainment. Then she'll eat you anyways. Just because she can. Succubi seem to be a good example. Luckily they mostly prey on...

7. The one who deserved it - You know, the one who was just a horrible person? The guy who sent his own men to their deaths for his own selfish gain? The guy who abandoned his 'friends' to the belly of a predator? The guy who deserves a fate worse than death? You WANT to see him get eaten. And when it happens, you'll probably laugh. I know I will.

8. Idiots - Don't piss off a predator. You should know better. Dumbass.

This list was created for Thera, my giant sea naga, who determines whether she will help you or eat you by your place here. Unless she's REALLY hungry.
I may or may not write her into a story depending on my available time. Look out for her bio to pop up in the stories section at least!
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:16 pm

Good list.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:44 am

FalconJudge wrote:
Good list.
Agreed
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:15 am

yeah really good list.


Umh if you want to sympathize for a pred, then you have to consider what you like:
-Animal:if you like snakes>naga spiders>dridder etc...
-Nature:Playful,sadistic,naive,apparently naive,always hungry,friendly,hateful etc...
-Power:some special power that you might like of the pred
-Backstory:what the pred as gone through in his/her youth

Try to combine some of this and i'm almost sure that you'll find the pred fitting for you

If the only thing you like is the physical appearence than it will be hard to choise^^


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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:42 am

i never quite understood the concept of sympathy...^^' maybe that's why all my gamer friends call me a demon XD
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:04 pm

Reptillian wrote:
i never quite understood the concept of sympathy...^^' maybe that's why all my gamer friends call me a demon XD

... Probably.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:11 am

Not sure that "sympathising" is the right word here.
I think that "empathising" would be better.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:25 pm

Hmmm.... What is the difference?
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:44 pm

I suppose "sympathise" would be more directed towards misfortune...?
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:30 am

FalconJudge wrote:
I suppose "sympathise" would be more directed towards misfortune...?
Actually, sympathize also means

sym⋅pa⋅thize
  /ˈsɪmpəˌθaɪz/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sim-puh-thahyz] Show IPA
–verb (used without object), -thized, -thiz⋅ing.
1. to be in sympathy or agreement of feeling; share in a feeling (often fol. by with).
2. to feel a compassionate sympathy, as for suffering or trouble (often fol. by with).
3. to express sympathy or condole (often fol. by with).
4. to be in approving accord, as with a person or cause: to sympathize with a person's aims.
5. to agree, correspond, or accord.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sympathize

So because of definition 4 & 5, either empathize or sympathize would be fine (see: sympathizer)



I have two standards for who I sympathize with, starting with the most important:

1) Vegetarians. If you're sentient and you don't eat living things then yeah, I'm no fan of seeing you get eaten
2) Carnivores. If you eat meat then you're justifiably in the game.

list #2:
1) Neeras, tinies, etc. Everyone eats them. Failing that they might just step on them - by accident. (Just kidding)
2) Humans & Nekos. I for one would get in constant trouble for jacking a neko or a human for eating people from group #1.
3) Giant preds. For your species to dominate a given area and strike fear in the hearts of others, you simply have to be really LARGE. For the most part. This group needs no sympathy.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:11 am

Quote :
3) Giant preds. For your species to dominate a given area and strike fear in the hearts of others, you simply have to be really LARGE. For the most part. This group needs no sympathy.

well any other random pred sure. no sympathy. since "who" can specifically mean one person as opposed to a group of people, that means you could feel sympathy for a friend-pred. Of course if a pred hunting me gets caught by another pred I'd be like "yes!!" and then "crap" cus it'd probably come for me next XD.

otherwise yeah I agree. its just i think the preds are a little more grey than black and white. I'll just leave it at that.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:15 am

Archmage_Bael wrote:
Quote :
3) Giant preds. For your species to dominate a given area and strike fear in the hearts of others, you simply have to be really LARGE. For the most part. This group needs no sympathy.

well any other random pred sure. no sympathy. since "who" can specifically mean one person as opposed to a group of people, that means you could feel sympathy for a friend-pred. Of course if a pred hunting me gets caught by another pred I'd be like "yes!!" and then "crap" cus it'd probably come for me next XD.

otherwise yeah I agree. its just i think the preds are a little more grey than black and white. I'll just leave it at that.
There's no denying the gray thing regarding Felarya. In fact, I'm surprised Machiavelli isn't a Guardian in Felarya. I mean, "as long as s/he doesn't eat me, it's all good" is not exactly uncommon practice, but in Felarya, it's THE gold plated latinum rule. Consider Galya, who devours plenty of folks, but the Black Mountain Tribe she hangs with, doesn't mind overall. In fact you'd be a fool not to accept that as a moral standard, what with the (heavily rigged) rules of survival in Felarya and all that: you side with whoever will protect you, and you don't waste resources opposing whoever won't eat you.

I guess I should amend my personal rules of sympathy for the likes of Jade, who according to the wiki eats animals but won't eat sentients. (I mean, really, I just had a chicken teriyaki sausage. Hmmmmmm.) Then there's the original gangsta of the "I won't eat humans" gang, Rin (who has in fact been fed animals). It's not even beyond understanding that both of these characters have friends who eat humans. There's my standards, and then there's Surviving in Felarya standards...
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:54 pm

To be honest, I'd say Rave's got a good point, but I can't say I don't eat meat myself. Of course, that depends on whether you want to use the distinction of sentience or not. I've always been iffy about eating pig meat, because they can be very intelligent animals.

In terms of Felarya, though, I'd say it doesn't matter. Sympathy, empathy, and philosophy will just get you in a belly that much faster. In such a primal world, might makes right. At least, that's the way the preds have made it. If they want to claim that it's their right to eat humans because they can, then fine. They can't complain when a hunter brings them down and makes them a trophy.

If cows suddenly developed sentient minds and personalities, then I'd expect them to rise up and fight us. Anything with a soul should do so.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:34 pm

ZionAtriedes wrote:
To be honest, I'd say Rave's got a good point, but I can't say I don't eat meat myself. Of course, that depends on whether you want to use the distinction of sentience or not. I've always been iffy about eating pig meat, because they can be very intelligent animals.

In terms of Felarya, though, I'd say it doesn't matter. Sympathy, empathy, and philosophy will just get you in a belly that much faster. In such a primal world, might makes right. At least, that's the way the preds have made it. If they want to claim that it's their right to eat humans because they can, then fine. They can't complain when a hunter brings them down and makes them a trophy.
It depends on how you are with sympathy, empathy and philosophy. Never let it hinder you from making a decision optimal for your survival. If you know enough about philosophy to endear yourself to, say, Queen Nemyra, then you gosh darned fraggin' sure better use it. Using it on Ele? Not so good. Generally, though, the proper application of philosophy, empathy and sympathy may be able to help you make friends and influence people and in Felarya that can be valuable. In fact, speaking softly and carrying a very, very large stick would serve you very well in that realm.

Quote :
If cows suddenly developed sentient minds and personalities, then I'd expect them to rise up and fight us. Anything with a soul should do so.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:00 pm

Okay, let me rephrase my statement, as you are right in pointing out that it isn't an effective blanket declaration. Philosophy might serve you well in a few cases, but for most encounters, the huge stick is a better option.

I'm always up for a new friend! Yay!
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:15 pm

If pigs were sentient, i'd most likely stop eating them. As of now, I dont feel that way because i'm surrounded by a culture that does so.
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PostSubject: Re: Who should I be sympathizing with again?   Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:21 am

ZionAtriedes wrote:
Okay, let me rephrase my statement, as you are right in pointing out that it isn't an effective blanket declaration. Philosophy might serve you well in a few cases, but for most encounters, the huge stick is a better option.
You have to know when and how much to use either.

One thing very few natives seem to do (and almost NO newbs) in Felarya is observe... not even when they can do so from a safe distance.

Speaking of this, I am interested in knowing something. Did Anna, in her pre-Crisis Deluran form, even realize that Felarya was so dangerous when she went out on that ill-fated walk in the forest? Please say she was one of the first Delurans out there and no one knew about the monsters in the area......
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