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 Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?

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ZionAtriedes
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:14 am

Anime-Junkie wrote:
ZionAtriedes wrote:
So, you see, balance and imbalance are the same. Good and evil, as well.
D:
Stop messing with my head. Those things are diametrically opposite.
Just because one may give rise to the other does not mean they are the same.
Maybe it does. After all, are not heads and tails just parts of a coin?
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:33 am

ZionAtriedes wrote:
Maybe it does. After all, are not heads and tails just parts of a coin?

Well it depends really, balance is theological, and also ties in with religion as well, but we dont really know if they can exist without the other.

Just because one thing comes from another doesn't mean they're the same. Otherwise your apple would the same as the tree it comes from.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:35 am

But an apple is the same as a tree - it is part of the cycle of being a tree. What do you think appleseeds are for? They're just baby trees.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:36 am

just because two things share a similar trait does not make them the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:41 am

It's not a similar trait - it's the same thing. Are you saying a baby is not a person? It looks a lot different from an adult, but it still has the genetic makeup of a person.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:48 am

a baby is the same person as when he/she grows up

an apple is indeed not a tree. where as an apple comes from a tree, the only thing linking them is the seed/flower it comes from. A tree has wood, leaves, etc. An apple is a fruit, a vessel to carry another seed, they are two different things, but what joins them is just one thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:55 am

Hmm. I see your point and might accept it if there was just one seed turning into one tree which then ends. But with the world having a cyclical nature, an apple is simply a tree at a different chronological point.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:58 am

the seed is actually the tree, not the apple. an apple is more of a container for the seed.

plus if having one related aspect to anything else means they are the same, then that makes everything the same. because everything on this planet shares something similar.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:57 pm

rcs619 wrote:
ZionAtriedes wrote:
It probably would have been more accurate to use beef or chicken instead of green beans. Then you could use the whole vegetarian argument.

Well, it's like I said. The morality matters not. I find it funny that I, an unabashed Christian, keep promoting Darwinism, but that's the way it is. From the preds point of view, they may be justified. But, if chickens rebelled and started killing humans, I guess that wouldn't make them evil, either. Or green beans, in your terms.

In terms of consumption, the fitter species survives. You don't have to be at the top of the food chain to be successful. You have to adapt. Cockroaches, ants, rats... they've fared much better than tigers, polar bears, and eagles. Unfortunately, in Felarya, it is the preds who have the environmental advantage... damn Guardians.

The Guardians aren't really an issue. They only intervene in world-shattering situations...like the Ur-Sagolians aggressively expanding (dislocating other humans, and preds along the way), and likely experimenting in things they shouldn't.

If a group of preds did the same thing, the Guardians would blast them just as quick. They're about upholding the balance. They don't care about a couple humans killing a couple preds...there's 1000's others of each group. What they DO seem to care about are massive super-groups being formed that completely unbalance the functioning of the world.
Actually, in the Felarya wiki I recall one of the giant preds (Crisis, maybe?) eating an entire town full of Nekos.

The Guardians didn't do a thing about that.

That brings up a question: how much destruction can a pred get away with?
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:23 pm

You're thinking of the Broken Hill tribe. It should be noted that the tribe was already severely diminished from various predator attacks - Crisis just polished them off, so to speak.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:35 pm

Raveolution wrote:

Actually, in the Felarya wiki I recall one of the giant preds (Crisis, maybe?) eating an entire town full of Nekos.

The Guardians didn't do a thing about that.

That brings up a question: how much destruction can a pred get away with?

Well, let's say a giant naga eats in entirety, three whole villages of humans/nekos/whatever: A-OK.

The same naga uses their fire affinity magic for burning down several hundred acres of forest with no end in sight: Not OK.

It doesn't seem like they micromanage the place. You cause a huge mess that sets the environment off-balance, you'd likely see some sort of response however.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:24 pm

/Fish/ wrote:
Raveolution wrote:

Actually, in the Felarya wiki I recall one of the giant preds (Crisis, maybe?) eating an entire town full of Nekos.

The Guardians didn't do a thing about that.

That brings up a question: how much destruction can a pred get away with?

Well, let's say a giant naga eats in entirety, three whole villages of humans/nekos/whatever: A-OK.

The same naga uses their fire affinity magic for burning down several hundred acres of forest with no end in sight: Not OK.

It doesn't seem like they micromanage the place. You cause a huge mess that sets the environment off-balance, you'd likely see some sort of response however.

Indeed. I doubt they care about a tiny little jungle village getting hit hard, or even several preds getting killed. Felarya, due to its chaotic nature and massive size (I mean, the 'main jungle' seems to be only one tiny part of one continent) likely has a combined Macro/"normal"/micro population of over a trillion (honestly, I consider that a VERY conservative estimate myself). Thats really what they care about, the bigger picture. I doubt even Notys, in all her multi-dimnesional weirdness could micromanage the place.

Now, I think if you had a massive group of preds ally to bum-rush and take on Negav (or any of the other massive human settlements that are likely scattered across all of Felarya) and...I dunno...take back the forest for predator-kind or something (which I doubt because of the cannons and other bits of technological and magical doom that defends it), I think that might actually warrant a glance by the guardians. With Negav alone, ou're talking about a city of several 100,000 (believe Karbo has estimated it between 500,000 and 1 million) and a major dimensional hub.

They don't care about individuals, or even most groups. All they care about are forces that can shape large areas of the world and throw them out of whack. Unless you somehow assemble a massive group and make a serious attempt to "take over the world"...there really is no chance of the guardians giving a shit about what you do day to day. That goes for humans, preds and tinies.

Hell, Ur-Sagol is the only time a group of "normal" Felaryans has actually gotten the guardians' attention. Other than that, it was an army of Titans, a Darkness elemental, that group of creatures from another dimension...forget what they were called, and Sineria, who was a special individual. Whatever the Ur-Sagolians did....it was HUGE. It wasn't the guardians just deciding to shit on some humans because they were doing well =P The Ur-Sagolians were up to something massive that posed a threat to the entire region, likely other humans along with preds and tinies.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:52 pm

Furthermore, something to consider: Why is killing a dozen-or-three Nekos on your own at once okay, but killing a handful of Giant Predators bad?

Consider for instance how wide an area those Giant Predators are covering: In order to sustain themselves, they're going to be combing an area easily several kilometers (if not tens of kilometers) in radius. A small village of Nekos is going to be making much less an impact on an ecosystem than the Giant Predators (realistically, you wouldn't have a bunch of Giant Predators living in a stone's throw distance unless food is extremely abundant in the area).

As such, killing a handful of Giant Predators is more akin to taking out several Villages over a spread area. While in terms of life, the Neko destruction is worse, in terms of overall impact the Giant Predators are worse in their death.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:01 am

Malahite wrote:
Furthermore, something to consider: Why is killing a dozen-or-three Nekos on your own at once okay, but killing a handful of Giant Predators bad?

killing a handful of Giant Predators bad?

Wha?

Quote :
Consider for instance how wide an area those Giant Predators are covering: In order to sustain themselves, they're going to be combing an area easily several kilometers (if not tens of kilometers) in radius. A small village of Nekos is going to be making much less an impact on an ecosystem than the Giant Predators (realistically, you wouldn't have a bunch of Giant Predators living in a stone's throw distance unless food is extremely abundant in the area).

As such, killing a handful of Giant Predators is more akin to taking out several Villages over a spread area. While in terms of life, the Neko destruction is worse, in terms of overall impact the Giant Predators are worse in their death.

I don't think your point here means much unless it's dozens and dozens of giant things that are being killed off. How does a handful of giants kicking the bucket mean anything now?
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:06 am

/Fish/ wrote:
I don't think your point here means much unless it's dozens and dozens of giant things that are being killed off. How does a handful of giants kicking the bucket mean anything now?
Because killing off a handful of Giant Predators suddenly removes several near-apex creatures from a multi-(tens of )kilometer radius? This will play a merry hell on local populations sizes (which will be allowed to grow, whether it's the prey species or a different Predator taking over), the type of traits we'll see in said populations (while too short term to cause evolution, consider the Guppy-Pond example that's common in Biology / Animal Behavior classes), and so on.

Killing dozens and dozens of Giant Things is worse, in that you're essentially leaving a gaping hole easily tens (if not hundreds) of kilometers-square in size. If not that big (see: Extremely dense prey population in the area as well), then there's an even bigger population-culling force removed as a Prey Species that took dozens of Giant Predators to keep "controlled" suddenly had a major limiter removed.

Giant Predators eat a helluva lot more, a helluva lot more often, patrol a much wider area, deal with game (See: Spine Beetle colonies, smaller Kensha Beast packs) that many natives cannot keep out, and so on. Removing them is not like removing a small no-name village, it's like removing a garrison that held constant, say, Blood Ape hunts to prevent them from reaching horde-numbers. One or two Giant Predators being dropped is nothing big / surprising on Felarya, especially if another Giant Predator killed them to swoop in and take their terrain, there were other Giant Predators nearby to pick up their slack, and so on. Killing an equal number of them as Prey-Species, however, would be worse for the ecosystem (note I'm not saying warranting enough to require Guardian Attention, just enough to harm the ecosystem) than the Prey-Species' loss.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:03 pm

I'll concede that depending on the environment, the loss of a few giant predatory humanoids could throw the place off. Moreso for the less populated places.

Now, I'd like to bring up gender ratios because it's been on my mind after I clarified how many single-gender races we have in the TVtropes article.

Last I recall the official ratio was about 1 male to 6 females, how generally or vague that was applied to I do not know. I've always considered the best and simplest explanation to be 'They're giant, having a skewed gender ratio would help curb overpopulation which would deplete resources'.

Then again, looking at the gender ratios of some other giant races beyond giant nagas, giant dridders, giant merfolk, you start to see some wrenches in that.

Single gendered races, female-to-male ratio
Giant races

Giant Harpies: 1:0
Gyspas: 1:0

Small races:

Miaxi: 1:0
Nemesises: 1:0
(I've just assumed that 'there are no male nemesises on Felarya' were weasel words and that the men exist, but for whatever reason don't come to Felarya. Maybe they're stuck in a dream world or something. : P )
Also +Small Harpies

Slug-girls: 1:1
Razias: 1:1
(These two races are hermaphrodites)

Now, on this note I'll add that I don't see any reason that most human-sized races would need to be any more lopsided in gender ratio than humans are, in other words be tied at all to the gender ratio of giants if they have a male counterpart.

I'm really kind of curious what your explanation for the gender ratio turns out to be Karbo, since you've said a few times you do have one in mind, but it's just still a secret/ hasn't been implemented. I'm hoping it's not just 'There's this magical artifact deep underground that makes everything more likely to be female'... or something.

Or perhaps I'm thinking of the Vore effect thing.


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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:05 pm

The reason for the general population being female is obvious.

Felarya destroys Y chromosomes, and slowly changes all its inhabitants into women. That is the reason portals are constantly linking to Felarya, most species can interbreed with humans, and what Ur-Sagol figured out and wished to bring an end to.

Over time, the nature of the land slowly shifts the biological functions of those there. Elves are not truly their own species - they're simply humans whose males are half-way through the gender change, with the females being female humans who have been brought over the brink by the changes and almost into their own species of females. The longer a time one spends on Felarya, the more likely one is to change. A few years, you might just have lowered testosterone levels. A few centuries, however (if a guy manages to live that long), and you'll start feeling funny in your chest and nethers region. You'll also almost resemble an Elven Male. If you somehow manage to make it into multiple millenia, you'll find your genitalia having drawn in on itself and your chest expanded - your very bone structure having slowly changed as well.

The reason native species still have males amongst their populace is through ingenious breeding with those from other realms that have come to Felarya. As they arrive, they allow a temporary return of the Y chromosome to the genetic line. However, the changes are still there. As such, over time, the males will eventually fade away without further replacements.

Insects, one of the fastest species to evolve, are the exception to this. Due to the fact that no demi-human in their right mind would shag one, those species that could not resist these changes (and thus, lacked the anti-magic defenses) were slowly turned all-female, and thus eventually wiped out. Those species that did have magical resistances, thrived and expanded upon such until eventually they could hold life on Felarya without the changes. This is also the true reason Faeries fear the Insects: Should all the portals to Felarya suddenly disappear, Insects would be the only race left to breed amongst itself in a few millenia.

I was told this fact by a very sober man - he assured me three times between swigs of his bottle - outside the Floundering Duck Tavern in Negav, who showed me his Degree from Napkin University, a University that writes all its graduee's degrees onto Napkins so that they may never be short a coaster.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:22 pm

Malahite wrote:
The reason for the general population being female is obvious.

Felarya destroys Y chromosomes, and slowly changes all its inhabitants into women. That is the reason portals are constantly linking to Felarya, most species can interbreed with humans, and what Ur-Sagol figured out and wished to bring an end to.

Over time, the nature of the land slowly shifts the biological functions of those there. Elves are not truly their own species - they're simply humans whose males are half-way through the gender change, with the females being female humans who have been brought over the brink by the changes and almost into their own species of females. The longer a time one spends on Felarya, the more likely one is to change. A few years, you might just have lowered testosterone levels. A few centuries, however (if a guy manages to live that long), and you'll start feeling funny in your chest and nethers region. You'll also almost resemble an Elven Male. If you somehow manage to make it into multiple millenia, you'll find your genitalia having drawn in on itself and your chest expanded - your very bone structure having slowly changed as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:16 pm

everything
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:20 pm

Claire wrote:
everything

that could be a bit of a problem X3

...and haven't seen you post anything in a while Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:25 am

I find Malahite's explanation a little much, though. Especially the elf part. I've always thought of them as an evolutionary offshoot of humans that lived in magic-abundant areas that ended up spreading through the cosmos like humans did (see: the Stargate Effect).

As to the skewed ratios... well, I've thought that a much more obvious problem is the clean-cut taurian nature of so many preds. Evolution doesn't work that way. So, I've always thought it a strong possibility that nagas, dridders, etc. were engineered, rather than evolved. Perhaps some ancient god-wizard, or a biologist from a super-futuristic society whose creations arrived in Felarya (and other worlds) long ago due to spacetime bends. So, if you're going for all that, maybe the gender imbalance was included. To be honest, nekos could have similar origins (the clean-cut nature of the feline and human elements is about as unlikely as the taurians). This means that only "natural" races, like humans and possibly elves, would have realistic gender ratios. Also, it's possible that nekos ovulate more than humans, bear more young, etc., to balance it all out.

As for nemeses, their nature is oddly human while still maintaining unique qualities. They might also be artificed, but perhaps from a different source. Or, once again, odd offshoots of the human race. Or stem from a group of humans exposed to an experiment, etc. Origins abound.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:54 am

Claire wrote:
everything

Shoo.

ZionAtriedes wrote:
I find Malahite's explanation a little much, though. Especially the elf part. I've always thought of them as an evolutionary offshoot of humans that lived in magic-abundant areas that ended up spreading through the cosmos like humans did (see: the Stargate Effect).

I'm fairly positive it was an elaborate joke idea presented as somewhat plausible, as I sometimes am known to post.

Quote :
As to the skewed ratios... well, I've thought that a much more obvious problem is the clean-cut taurian nature of so many preds. Evolution doesn't work that way. So, I've always thought it a strong possibility that nagas, dridders, etc. were engineered, rather than evolved. Perhaps some ancient god-wizard, or a biologist from a super-futuristic society whose creations arrived in Felarya (and other worlds) long ago due to spacetime bends. So, if you're going for all that, maybe the gender imbalance was included. To be honest, nekos could have similar origins (the clean-cut nature of the feline and human elements is about as unlikely as the taurians). This means that only "natural" races, like humans and possibly elves, would have realistic gender ratios. Also, it's possible that nekos ovulate more than humans, bear more young, etc., to balance it all out.

Felarya's races don't all have the same origins, you can't really apply a theory of a beginning to them all. If anything, it's likely many were already hybrid races on a variety of worlds, brought to Felarya and either adapted or were someway altered. Then equally likely to explain the giant races, is the theory that Notys has been sneezing out hybrid races since the dawn of Felarya. : P

But yeah, I can see how being an unnatural thing in the first place gives an amount of leeway in the regard of such things as gender ratios.

Quote :
As for nemeses, their nature is oddly human while still maintaining unique qualities. They might also be artificed, but perhaps from a different source. Or, once again, odd offshoots of the human race. Or stem from a group of humans exposed to an experiment, etc. Origins abound.

They're dang mysterious. Based off of the Japanese Rokurokubi monster/spirit thing, and their powers are just weird. Just trying to discern whether they use some sort of psionic-based power to affect the dreaming, or if it's another example of 'real illusions', hard to make sense of. Then they can walk on walls, which in itself could be a number of things. Therefore it's harder to discern how they might have originated since their nature is rather vague.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:38 am

/Fish/ wrote:
I'm fairly positive it was an elaborate joke idea presented as somewhat plausible, as I sometimes am known to post.
Pretty much. I'd be absolutely terrified if I somehow hit it right on the nail and Karbo's now scrambling to recover his plans.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:33 pm

Well, the one correct answer is that all the gods of Felarya like boobs.

Scientifically - the engineered idea could be correct. I would put this more to magic than science. Of course, the scary though is that Felarya itself is heavily modified and engineered for unknown purposes.

Here's some other notes to think on.

-There is actually a real bacteria on earth that targets only males - though I think that more affects crustaceans and other less complex creatures.

-An interesting quote from the Wikipedia article on sex rations

"...in families which females require multiple matings to keep producing eggs, sex ratios are less biased (close to 1); and in families which females can produce eggs continuously after only one mating, sex ratios are strongly skewed towards females."

Not saying that nagas only need to mate once - but something to consider.

-Interestingly, one animal that has a similar ration is alligators. They have about 5 females to 1 males. Alligator eggs develop males or females depending on temperate - warmer eggs turn into males. Only a few are so heated to develop into males. Just sort of interesting.


-Lastly, one more quote from Wikipedia which I think very much supports the engineered theory.

"...the most economically efficient community of animals will have a large number of females and a very small number of males. A herd of cows and a few prize bulls or a flock of chickens and one rooster are the most economical sex ratios for domesticated livestock."

In short, lots of females equal rapid growth of population - i.e., it only takes one bull to get multiple cows pregnant. On a world where so many creatures die, perhaps this ratio is just something to help boost populations? Admittedly, this makes more sense in predators that live communally. For individualistic ones like nagas who can lay multiple eggs, it doesn't really matter as much. Perhaps many of the predators were once designed to live together? Was Felarya some sick farming project gone horribly awry? (Answer - Probably not.)


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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything you think could be improved about Felarya?   Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:21 pm

Now I'm embarrassed that I didn't immediately assume it was a joke. I had considered the notion, but I proceeded as if it was serious.

I'm not saying all the species have one origin. I'm saying they have very similar ones. Or, just maybe, they do have the same one. I'd say it makes sense. And as to the science/magic argument:
Quote :
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" -Arthur C. Clarke.
To be honest, it's entirely possible the two are actually one in the same.

As to the ratios, yes, it's definitely true that a high ratio of females to males is economic... at least, in reproduction. Evolutionary potential is another matter, but I suppose that's not what the preds are going for, as they're high enough up there.
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