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 Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?

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Malahite
AisuKaiko
Silent_eric
Archmage_Bael
rcs619
Oldman40k2003
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rcs619
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Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Feb 03, 2010 7:11 am

You don't need to worry about inbreeding in a world where everyone is essentially immortal. People aren't going to be pressured to reproduce to continue the village. Some people would reproduce, sure...but its not like reproduction to have the village survive is going to be a major issue like it would be anywhere else.

Also, I think Eric may have a point about some of the more isolated villages view of Negav. Given the massive distances, and lack of communication...Negav probably is just a legend to some of them. The ones that knew about Negav probably would try to move there.

I still think you over-estimate the power of a fragmentation grenade. The blast isn't large enough to burst the stomach, and the shrapnel would be smaller than a grain of sand to a pred. If it did penetrate the stomach wall, it wouldn't be large enough to cause lethal bloodloss. Would it hurt? Probably, but the damage is probably just going to cause some irritation and discomfort. Probably about the equivalent of a bad ulcer.
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Malahite
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Feb 03, 2010 3:40 pm

A fragmentary grenade would be bad inside a Predator's stomach. However, the point is that it wouldn't do enough in time to kill one. It'll cause internal bleeding, it'll tear apart pretty much all the stomach (even if you consider it only "grain of sand", then take it like someone rubbed the inside of your stomach with rough sandpaper), and so on. The catch is it's not going to blow up the stomach (now, if you used a weapon like an oxygen-tank sized container of compressed air, the ones that are comparative to our slug-sized ones that can make a basketball sized hole), and that the Giant Predator can recover as with the exception of a few creatures many beings don't need to eat at least once / 24 hours or die immediately.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Feb 03, 2010 6:16 pm

I agree with rcs here, a frag grenade isn't going to do that much to a pred's stomach. (I'm holding one in my hand right now).

Quote from Wikipedia: The Mills bomb or F1 grenade are examples of defensive grenades where the 30–45 m casualty radius[14] matched or exceeded the 30 m that a grenade could reasonably be thrown.

Modern fragmentation grenades such as the United States M67 grenade have a wounding radius of 15 m (half that of older style grenades which may still be encountered) and can be thrown about 40 m. Fragments may travel more than 200 m.[15]


The grenade I have is a mills bomb, dating from around 1942. it looks a like this:
Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 180px-Mills_N%C2%B036_SGM-2
The shrapnel from this grenade aren't that big. at the most they would be about as big as the uppermost part of my pinky finger. that's nothing to a pred.
As stated in the quote, the more modern grenades are actually less powerful, but can be thrown further. So a squad equipped with modern weapons would have even less of a chance of injuring a pred with a grenade.
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Malahite
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Feb 03, 2010 8:04 pm

People seem not quite to get how explosions, regardless of scale, are still explosions. For instance - look at a firecracker. Look at how small it is to us. Look at how we could hold one in our hands, and light it with minor pain. It's nothing...

But now take that exact same firecracker, and hold it in your fist. Closed. I dare you to light it again, but don't cry to me or sue me when you're missing a significant portion of hand-mass. Now imagine that done inside your stomach. It just doesn't kill a Predator, as there's not enough immediately vital stuff in their stomach to matter.
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rcs619
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Feb 03, 2010 8:44 pm

To be fair, a pred-sized firecracker would be many times larger and more powerful than a hand-grenade...it'd be like 2-3ft long.
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AisuKaiko
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Feb 03, 2010 8:50 pm

Easiest way to kill a lot of preds at once.

1- Somehow find a nuclear scientist in Felarya

2- Somehow be rich enough to fund a massive project

3- Somehow obtain large amounts of Uranium in Felarya

4- Somehow enrich said Uranium until you have enough U235 to make a weapon

5- Somehow build this apocalyptic device without getting bitchslapped by any Guardians who take notice

6- Somehow get the bomb to the desired location without getting killed

7- Somehow detonate the bomb

8- ???

9- PROFIT!!!





So yeah, Felaryan humans will never be a issue to the preds. :\
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 12:48 am

Raveolution wrote:

I totally disagree about the effectiveness of grenades (unless the P/pred's stomach is made of iron?)...

Grenades are not really that effective at crushing things into dust (IE: destruction via shock-wave), because they simply don't have enough explosive in them to do that. They are quite effective at what they are supposed to do, however, which is throw fragments. Hollywood almost never uses realistic grenade explosions in their movies, because those are small and boring.


It's not that their stomachs are made of iron, it's the combination of their relative largeness, and that their flesh is mostly water, which is dense. The fragments hit the flesh and travel maybe ten inches, causing damage the entire way, but being slowed down by hydrostatic drag caused by having to push the water out of the way. On a person, ten inches can go to the center of the their torso, hitting any vital organs along the way. On something that is 75 feet tall, 10 inches of penetration is no real danger, even when exploded inside the stomach.



I'm tired of seeing this argument every few months ("just drop a grenade in the preds stomach and they'd die!"), so I'm going to try to answer it definitively, once and for all. Unfortunately that means that this post will be rather large. (And watch-out "just use nerve gas on a pred and it will die!", I'm coming for you next!)




Lets do some math:

Human: 6 feet (1.8288 meters) tall
Crisis: 75 feet (22.86 meters) tall

Scaling factor: 12.5 to convert between the two.

Now, some quotes on the penetration abilities of fragmentation grenades: "...the fragments from a fragmentation grenade cannot penetrate a single layer of sandbags, a cinder block, or a brick building...", and "Fragmentation barriers consisting of common office furniture, mattresses, doors, or books can be effective against the fragmentation grenade inside rooms." (Citation)

AK-47 rounds will penetrate cinder-blocks (actually, they destroy them quite handily), so the AK-47 rounds are far more powerful than the fragments from a fragmentation grenade. (Citation)

This means that if we assume that the fragmentation grenade fragments are AK-47 shots fired at close range, then we will be vastly overestimating the damage a fragmentation grenade can do.


At close range (~10 yards, so the shot will have lost essentially no speed) a full metal jacket (IE: high penetration) AK-47 round will penetrate about 3 feet into ballistics gel, which is a decent approximation of human flesh. (http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=10879.0 see video 2)


Three feet is 0.9144 meters. Dividing by the scaling factor to convert it to human dimensions, we get 0.073152 (2.88 inches). So, if you ate a shrunken person who had a shrunken AK-47, their bullets (assuming they didn't hit bone) could travel up to 2.9 inches through your body.

I tried to find an anatomical diagram that showed both the heart and the stomach without showing the liver (which partially covers the stomach), but I didn't find any. The image I did find was this:
Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Anatomy

Image from here

Because I had to use an image with a liver, I had to guess what the shape of the stomach behind the liver was, based on other images.

In that image, the person is 413 pixels tall. If we assume that they are 6 feet tall, that means that a pixel's width is equivalent to 0.004428 meters. From before we know that a bullet might travel up to 2.88 inches throughout the body. That's On that picture, extending the borders of the stomach by 16.5 pixels (2.88 inches, to show the possible area of effect) covers most of the liver, some of the left lung, part of the kidneys, some space outside of the left side of the pred, and the lower third of the heart, among others. Also, while it is not possible to determine how far back from the stomach they are, there is an artery and a vein that travel past the lower left section of the stomach which are probably within range of the fragments.

So the organs that can be reached by the AK-47 round strength fragments are (though only a few of them are vulnerable to any particular grenade location): stomach, liver, kidneys, spleen, pancreas, part of the left lung, lower third of the heart, and possibly the vein and artery pair.


I'm going to use the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M67_grenade instead of the more iconic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_2_grenade because the M67 has more surface area, and thus more lethality potential. The M67 has a diameter of 2.5 in (64 mm), and thus a radius of 32mm (0.032 meters).
Scaled down by 12.5, to represent what size it would be on a human torso, it has a radius of 0.00256 meters. A sphere's surface area can be calculated by the formula 4*pi*r^2, where pi is 3.1415... and r is the radius. The surface area of the scaled down M67 grenade is 0.000082354 square meters.


For reference, a BB. (cite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB_gun) The BB has a radius of 4.39 millimeters, and thus a radius of 0.00439 meters. The BB has an “impact area” (the size of the hole it would make if you shot it through a piece of paper) of pi*r^2, or 0.000060545 square meters in this case.

To compare the two sizes, lets divide the surface area of the scaled down grenade by the impact area of a BB. If the resulting number was 1, then the surface area of the scaled down grenade was equal to that of a BB. The number is actually 1.3602, which tells us that the grenade has a little bit more surface area than the impact area of a BB. In other words, were you to cut a hole in a piece of paper just large enough to cover the grenade's surface, the hole would be only a little bit bigger than the hole created by shooting a BB through it.


So, to conclude the mathematical part of this post, with a super powered grenade you could damage flesh with a total volume equal to a cylinder a little bit wider than a BB, and 2.9 inches long, if scaled down to human size.

Given the list of organs that are within 2.9 inches of the stomach (the stomach itself, liver, kidneys, spleen, pancreas, part of the left lung, lower third of the heart, and possibly the vein and artery pair), what can be done to kill the pred?

The answer is: not much. Putting a hole the size of a BB in your stomach won't kill you, regardless if the hole is all in one place or spread out all over. It won't kill you if the same holes (either all in one place or spread out) are put in your liver. Your kidneys can survive holes in them, as can your spleen and your pancreas. These are all volumetric tissues with essentially no vital parts, and most of them heal rather quickly to boot. Your left lung warrants special mention, as lungs are very compartmentalized and thus very resistant to damage, so putting a small hole or many tiny holes in it is about the same as doing nothing.

What's left is the heart, and possibly the artery and vein pair. The heart, especially the lower third, which is the only part that can be reached, is thick muscle. Ballistics gel simulates average human tissue, not muscle, so any bullets that reached the heart would not penetrate as deeply as would be suggested, so it's entirely possible that the heart itself would not have any holes in it. But for the sake of argument, lets assume that they do penetrate. Any small holes are automatically plugged by the natural clotting agents found in the blood. If, somehow, every single fragments of the grenade somehow hit right next to each other all at the same time, then they could possibly create a hole the size of a BB in the heart. This is not immediately fatal to humans, though it does usually require heart surgery. For a Felaryan, however, it could probably be fixed in relatively short order by the healing effects of the soil. The last possibly vulnerable organ is the vein and artery pair near the back of the stomach. Small holes will be sealed up by either the clotting mechanisms in the blood, or by the natural sealing of the walls themselves. The same thing happens when you give blood, for example. As with the heart, it might be possible to create a BB sized hole in the artery or vein if you somehow managed to get all the fragments from the grenade going in the same direction all at the same time. This is probably actually more dangerous that a wound to the heart, because the vein and artery walls will not seal as tightly as muscle tissue will. It is probable, however, that Felarya's healing soil will fix this injury before death occurs, because the blood has no easy direct route to the outside; all possible exits are sealed with tight rings of muscle, so the predator will probably not bleed to death.


So, my conclusions. (1)Assuming that you have a hand grenade that is far more powerful than a regular hand grenade, and (2)assuming that you place it very carefully, and (3)assuming that you are somehow able to get every single fragment to travel in the same direction at the same time, and (4)assuming that the predators are internally identical to humans, but scaled up, you could possibly cause a semi-life threatening injury from inside of the pred's stomach. However, most of these conditions will never be true simultaneously, so grenades are not effective at killing giant preds.

Assumption #1 will rarely if ever be true; a hand grenade is a casing with some BB sized fragments inside surrounding an explosive core, and the explosive used is the most powerful but stable explosive that can be had. To get more explosive power would require a larger grenade, but that takes it out of the hand size category. You will not be able to accelerate the fragments to AK-47 round speeds, because the fragments are not surrounded by a barrel to confine the gasses from an explosion; as the grenade flies apart the still expanding gases rush PAST the fragments, a waste of energy that cannot happen when the gasses are trapped behind the projectile. Furthermore, the sheer number of fragments in a standard fragmentation grenade mean that they will have vastly less penetration than a solid round of the same weight traveling at the same speed. This is because many smaller fragments have a higher surface area to weight ratio, meaning that they suffer from drag more because they have more surface. Higher drag means lower penetration.

Assumption #2 will rarely be true; proper placement requires planning ahead (learning the vulnerable locations), the appropriate tools (a grenade and spikes to hold the grenade in place, a light-source to see by), and the mental fortitude to carry out the action (you have to not panic, and you have to be willing to commit suicide (see next assumption)).

Assumption #3 will never be true with a hand grenade, almost by definition. A fragmentation grenade is fragments surrounding an explosive core, which when exploding throws the fragments in all directions. To get that sort of directionality requires a gun; to get that sort of area of destruction requires a large mouthed gun; to get that depth of destruction requires a gun that can fire its shots as fast as an AK-47. Really, it would be a shrapnel cannon, with a barrel diameter of over 5 inches(!), and a kick strong enough to blow your shoulder clean off. (If you had a gun of that diameter you would be better off with solid shot) Because this argument will never be true, anyone who places and sets off a grenade inside the stomach is committing suicide, since there is nowhere to hide from the deadly cloud of fragments, and the prey does not have the benefit of meters of flesh to shield their vital organs.

Assumption #4 may or may not be true; nagas and other giant preds seem to be humans that are just scaled up, but I would expect evolution to work on any species that had been eating live prey for a long time and increase the strength of their stomach walls, possibly with cartilage “plates” and other things that would drastically change the ballistic performance of bullets traveling through them.


Summary of the conclusion (the conclusion's conclusion, as it were): hand grenades are not a viable method with which to damage a predator from inside of its stomach.



(Interesting side note: the penetration of a full metal jacketed AK-47 round is such that a person inside of a stomach could, in theory, shoot their pred's left elbow through the sides of the ribcage, assuming they missed the ribs.)



Malahite wrote:

People seem not quite to get how explosions, regardless of scale, are still explosions. For instance - look at a firecracker. Look at how small it is to us. Look at how we could hold one in our hands, and light it with minor pain. It's nothing...

But now take that exact same firecracker, and hold it in your fist. Closed.

That's only a problem if the volume enclosing the explosive is small enough that the extra volume of gasses that are produced by the explosion is enough to rupture the container. This is very much dependent on the size of the container, and how tightly it is sealed. For example, a hand grenade in a tightly sealed box will blow the lid and sides off. A hand grenade in a tightly sealed warehouse will not blow the doors off their hinges, because the additional gasses produced are a small fraction of the gasses already inside the warehouse, so the additional pressure is small. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive_material#Volume_of_products_of_explosion . I could do the math, but I am rather sick of math at the moment, so instead I leave you with something to think about: would a hand grenade cause a room sized, air-tight, flexible and expandable bag, with two semi-tightly sealed exits, to explode from the pressure difference alone?
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 1:23 am

If anyone says TL;DR to the above post, I'll throw a grenade at them. (I have one)
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timing2
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 3:43 am

Ah yes, but what about NUCLEAR hand grenades! Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 7:18 am

timing2 wrote:
Ah yes, but what about NUCLEAR hand grenades! Laughing

A more reasonable method would be a concussion grenade, where the killing power and method is derived from the explosive force not the shrapnel.

EDIT: I know enoguh that the enduring effects of an explosive shockwave depend on density of the medium: A shockave will dispurse much quicker in air than in water thus a concussion grenade or stick of dynamite exploding directly onto the stomach wall will cause alot more damage than if it exploded directly in the centre.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 12:47 pm

Oldman40k2003 wrote:
That's only a problem if the volume enclosing the explosive is small enough that the extra volume of gasses that are produced by the explosion is enough to rupture the container.
Reviewing my point, while I still stand that a grenade in the stomach is going to be worse than a grenade, say, in their hand, that a better spot for detonation would be the throat: Much, much tighter. Only problem here is that you're pretty much promised, besides requiring your hand stretched out, to sacrifice a full half of the blast's force against your body before hitting the Giant Predator.

Quote :
so instead I leave you with something to think about: would a hand grenade cause a room sized, air-tight, flexible and expandable bag, with two semi-tightly sealed exits, to explode from the pressure difference alone?
The room would be relatively small - remember that the average stomach isn't much bigger than one's fist, and if we scaled it up to a Giant Predator without throwing off proportions (as doing such would then skew other facts), it shouldn't be too bad as we've seen Giant Predator hand sizes.

The air-tight would be one of the biggest problems, how much I can't exactly say as there's multiple seals, I don't know the formulas for what happens if the force surpasses that necessary to force such open, and so on. Furthermore, remember that my point is that it would not kill a Giant Predator. Inconvenience them? Yes. Cause them a great deal of pain? Yes. Kill them? Not in the least, at least once Felarya's healing properties come into effect.



Onto this topic some more, to detract from things: Humans can be a threat to Giant Predators. It is all a matter of circumstances. There's high-tech, wherein there are weapons quite capable of harming (or, in some 'verses instances, killing) giant predators passed about on an infantry scale. There's "low tech", wherein extremely potent toxins (which there are a lot of on Felarya) could be used. There's brute-force magic, such as what would in D&D terms be an "Epic" Evoker. There's indirect magic, stuff like dangerous illusions and the like. And so on, and so on. However, people have to keep several things in mind during such things:
1) Threat does not necessarily mean kill. One who can injure, scare, disable, whatever a Giant Predator is a threat.
2) Not everyone has access to such. No, it should not be as uncommon as people make it out to be (Maybe one in a million adventurers will maybe have something that might draw a Giant Predator's attention maybe long enough that it decides to maybe kill you slightly faster than the others), but neither should it be made out as something that's passed around like candy on Halloween (And here's Jenkin's Stinger Missile, and here's Karl's E-Web, and here's Jane's Redeemer..).
3) What works on one Giant Predator, may not work on the next. Similarly, what works on Giant Predators, may be worse to use against the "regular" mega-fauna. Yeah, a high power rifle could do some harm to a Dridder. Could vent a hole in their heart. But what's that rifle going to do if an 'Ape horde comes after you? Or if you're attacked by a Diamond Naga?
4) Stories are no fun when the prey are helpless and removing the helplessness is due to a villain. Similarly, making Predators easy to conquer until a villain shows up is poor writing. If your Giant Predator is wading through dozens of gunships and treating the missiles like a gentle rain, and is not protected by some serious magical armor / spells, you're showing a failure in a few concepts. If you're having a team of Unreal Tournament players w/ 23mm Miniguns wade through Giant Predators like wheat to the scythe, you're portraying the Giant Predators like dumb fools who're refusing to acknowledge "23mm bad, don't charge head on" and use hunting tactics, common sense, and so on.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 1:02 pm

nonetheless, oldman's point still stands it looks like. Grenades wouldn't do too much, considering all the differences. personally I'm willing to accept oldman's explanation because I dont want to find the same amount of evidence to try and reubutt his arguement ^^

plus it seems detailed and sound enough to be proven true.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 3:20 pm

Again, the best defense against a pred is this.

Spoiler:

Thank you.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 3:24 pm

thanks pendragon. i think we've argued enough about this.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 5:11 pm

So who benifits from this argument exactly? Felarya is limited to our writing, art work and wahatever Karbo has up his sleeve. It's your choice as to what you include in your story or other artisitic medium. It's also your choice as to who survives what, but doing so just for the sake of promoting your character, well that's a different argument all together. Unless we are all on the same playing field when it comes to our knowldege on 'weaponology' or even magic, this argument wont be settled, it will just be a continuation of rebuttal after rebuttal.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 5:39 pm

CauldronBorn24 wrote:
So who benifits from this argument exactly? Felarya is limited to our writing, art work and wahatever Karbo has up his sleeve. It's your choice as to what you include in your story or other artisitic medium. It's also your choice as to who survives what, but doing so just for the sake of promoting your character, well that's a different argument all together. Unless we are all on the same playing field when it comes to our knowldege on 'weaponology' or even magic, this argument wont be settled, it will just be a continuation of rebuttal after rebuttal.

Which is why any subsequent arguing about it will invoke Felarya Science Stage 5, which states that unless you do a field test on an actual giant, it is to be dropped.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 8:22 pm

Anime-Junkie wrote:
If anyone says TL;DR to the above post, I'll throw a grenade at them. (I have one)

More grenades? *Goes insane*. cat



timing2 wrote:
Ah yes, but what about NUCLEAR hand grenades! Laughing

I will murder you in your sleep! Razz
(And due to physics, the smallest you can make a nuclear device that uses plutonium is about 51 lbs (Like this one!), so it's not really a grenade, and it requires a high level of technology and an industrial base to produce, but I have little doubt that detonating this inside of a predator's stomach would kill it instantly and give everything within a hundred feet lethal radiation poisoning. (Flesh, being mostly water, acts as a decent radiation shield, so the lethal dose range would be less from an internal blast than one that occurs in mid-air.))


CauldronBorn24 wrote:
A more reasonable method would be a concussion grenade, where the killing power and method is derived from the explosive force not the shrapnel.

EDIT: I know enoguh that the enduring effects of an explosive shockwave depend on density of the medium: A shockave will dispurse much quicker in air than in water thus a concussion grenade or stick of dynamite exploding directly onto the stomach wall will cause alot more damage than if it exploded directly in the centre.

Concussion waves are such a pain to figure out how they would go. They tend to reflect and refract when passing through different densities, which explains why simply placing and explosive on the surface tends to not damage the surface much: the vast majority of the explosive energy travels into the air instead.


Malahite wrote:
Onto this topic some more, to detract from things: Humans can be a threat to Giant Predators.\

Yep. In terms of Earth weaponry, though I haven't done the math, if the weapon doesn't say "Anti-Tank" or maybe possibly "Anti-Material", it's probably not going to be much use. Doing some simple googling leads me to believe that an anti-tank round fired from a recoilless rifle, like this one, could penetrate roughly 64 feet of flesh, which means that it could actually threaten vital organs... though the round would be about the size of a BB on us, and firing the thing would alert everyone within miles of your exact location. Oh, and the back blast would destroy all the vegetation behind you for meters, revealing your position instantly. It's also heavy, takes 10 seconds to reload, and you could only carry a few rounds. Still, it's better than nothing.


Archmage_Bael wrote:
personally I'm willing to accept oldman's explanation because I dont want to find the same amount of evidence to try and reubutt his arguement ^^

plus it seems detailed and sound enough to be proven true.

Victory through a technique I like to call "The Avalanche"! Razz Smile




CauldronBorn24 wrote:
So who benifits from this argument exactly?

The point of my post was this: something X was claimed to negate or otherwise severely change one or more of what I consider the fundamentals of Felarya. I showed that X isn't possible given Felaryan, or our own, physics, and therefore doesn't actually negate or severely change things.

That is, in my opinion there are certain things that Felarya is supposed to be, certain things that should happen and should be allowed, and some things that shouldn't happen, or shouldn't be allowed. You won't find me posting proof that giant preds can't exist because they would collapse under their own weight, because I feel that giant preds are something that Felarya is supposed to have. I also feel that smaller prey should not have an easy time fending off larger predators, because that removes too much of the danger from the world, so I post arguments against things that make it too easy to defeat preds. It just so happens that physics says that grenades aren't really a threat, but if physics had said otherwise I would have noted it, then posted an argument that we should do something (give the preds stronger stomachs or the like) to negate the grenades anyway.

So the purpose that this argument serves is "help to flesh out what Felarya is, and what it allows.", at least to some extent.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 9:25 pm

Oldman40k2003 wrote:
Grenades are not really that effective at crushing things into dust (IE: destruction via shock-wave), because they simply don't have enough explosive in them to do that. They are quite effective at what they are supposed to do, however, which is throw fragments. Hollywood almost never uses realistic grenade explosions in their movies, because those are small and boring.
We're getting hung up on the stomach thing here. As I did say more than once, the stomach is far from the only destination for a grenade. They would also tend to throw the grenade into the pred's mouth. If it's got a 4 second fuse like the Irish modified them to have, there's no way it'll even make it into the stomach. An explosion in the stomach is clearly debatable until hell freezes over, but in the mouth or throat?

rcs619 wrote:
You don't need to worry about inbreeding in a world where everyone is essentially immortal. People aren't going to be pressured to reproduce to continue the village. Some people would reproduce, sure...but its not like reproduction to have the village survive is going to be a major issue like it would be anywhere else.
But they do have sex, I assume. Sex sometimes leads to kids. If these people are dealing with early Renaissance tech, they're not going to have birth control around. Or are we talking about immortality with no sex, or they've found some way not to have kids, or...? What about evolution? Do these towns stay early Renaiisance level forever?

Oldman40k2003 wrote:
That is, in my opinion there are certain things that Felarya is supposed to be, certain things that should happen and should be allowed, and some things that shouldn't happen, or shouldn't be allowed. You won't find me posting proof that giant preds can't exist because they would collapse under their own weight, because I feel that giant preds are something that Felarya is supposed to have. I also feel that smaller prey should not have an easy time fending off larger predators, because that removes too much of the danger from the world, so I post arguments against things that make it too easy to defeat preds. It just so happens that physics says that grenades aren't really a threat, but if physics had said otherwise I would have noted it, then posted an argument that we should do something (give the preds stronger stomachs or the like) to negate the grenades anyway.
That's the whole thing. Nothing should be easy in Felarya; except that if you're the bigger P/pred, you easily win, with a few notable exceptions. You just have to be 10 times bigger than the prey you're after and it's all handed to you. Which is why I keep saying that this would cause all the smaller people to migrate away in search of safer ground in Felarya. I've never heard of sentient beings staying in a place where the odds are so badly stacked against them. Them Felaryan humans, nekos and tinies strike me as kind of dumb.

If life is meant to be so easy for P/preds then throw an endless supply of newb scouting parties at them. That works famously. Everyone else, though, is going to be trying to get out of Dodge.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 9:38 pm

Raveolution wrote:

That's the whole thing. Nothing should be easy in Felarya; except that if you're the bigger P/pred, you easily win, with a few notable exceptions. You just have to be 10 times bigger than the prey you're after and it's all handed to you. Which is why I keep saying that this would cause all the smaller people to migrate away in search of safer ground in Felarya. I've never heard of sentient beings staying in a place where the odds are so badly stacked against them. Them Felaryan humans, nekos and tinies strike me as kind of dumb.

If life is meant to be so easy for P/preds then throw an endless supply of newb scouting parties at them. That works famously. Everyone else, though, is going to be trying to get out of Dodge.

But that's the thing. If you leave Felarya you die. Felarya means immortality. Felarya means riches. Felarya means no sickness, no age. People stay for that reason, the odds are stacked, but the rewards are greater than anywhere else in the multiverse.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 11:46 pm

Silent_eric wrote:
Raveolution wrote:

That's the whole thing. Nothing should be easy in Felarya; except that if you're the bigger P/pred, you easily win, with a few notable exceptions. You just have to be 10 times bigger than the prey you're after and it's all handed to you. Which is why I keep saying that this would cause all the smaller people to migrate away in search of safer ground in Felarya. I've never heard of sentient beings staying in a place where the odds are so badly stacked against them. Them Felaryan humans, nekos and tinies strike me as kind of dumb.

If life is meant to be so easy for P/preds then throw an endless supply of newb scouting parties at them. That works famously. Everyone else, though, is going to be trying to get out of Dodge.

But that's the thing. If you leave Felarya you die. Felarya means immortality. Felarya means riches. Felarya means no sickness, no age. People stay for that reason, the odds are stacked, but the rewards are greater than anywhere else in the multiverse.
Exactly. If it wasn't so damn hard, the Felarya would be swamped in people looking for immortality, riches, cures and all that. It already is, the preds just keeps the numbers down.

Another thing.
Some are successful
If you knew there was a diamond the size of your fist in the back of a cave, but you had no chance of getting it, would you try? No.
How would you even know it was there?

Most people who travel to Felarya in search of riches or power end up as fairy food. However there are some who are cunning, smart, suitably equipped or just really lucky (or all 4) to visit Felarya and return relatively unharmed with a a pocket full of diamonds or the Gem of Gal'borsh or what have you. These people are where the legends spring from.

Not all of these people are super powered mages or warriors with Amulets of extreme Unappetisement (Amulet of Extreme Unappetisement a new product of MUST), some are just average adventurers or unknowing people who got warped to Felarya and were lucky enough to net be eaten and stumble upon a dead warrior who's Amulet of Extreme Unappetisement failed to protect him from falling off that tree branch 40 feet up. (If you want something that does that you need the boots of excellent balance)
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 6:00 am

Silent_eric wrote:
But that's the thing. If you leave Felarya you die. Felarya means immortality. Felarya means riches. Felarya means no sickness, no age. People stay for that reason, the odds are stacked, but the rewards are greater than anywhere else in the multiverse.
I can see people staying for the treasures and immortality. If Karbo says a grenade exploding in the mouth or throat is no problem then hey, it's no problem. But after the first P/pred attack on a tribe/town the humans/nekos/tinies (name your victim) status quo won't be maintained; except for newbies blundering into a given zone, sentient food always, without exception, fights back and if they can't, they become scarce (dies off or flees in search of a safer zone in Felarya). Either way life gets hard for their P/preds, by difficulty of hunt or sheer scarcity.

Why would someone sit pat in an area where a fairy just ate their friend?
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 6:04 am

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Silent_eric wrote:
Raveolution wrote:

That's the whole thing. Nothing should be easy in Felarya; except that if you're the bigger P/pred, you easily win, with a few notable exceptions. You just have to be 10 times bigger than the prey you're after and it's all handed to you. Which is why I keep saying that this would cause all the smaller people to migrate away in search of safer ground in Felarya. I've never heard of sentient beings staying in a place where the odds are so badly stacked against them. Them Felaryan humans, nekos and tinies strike me as kind of dumb.

If life is meant to be so easy for P/preds then throw an endless supply of newb scouting parties at them. That works famously. Everyone else, though, is going to be trying to get out of Dodge.

But that's the thing. If you leave Felarya you die. Felarya means immortality. Felarya means riches. Felarya means no sickness, no age. People stay for that reason, the odds are stacked, but the rewards are greater than anywhere else in the multiverse.
Exactly. If it wasn't so damn hard, the Felarya would be swamped in people looking for immortality, riches, cures and all that. It already is, the preds just keeps the numbers down.

Another thing.
Some are successful
If you knew there was a diamond the size of your fist in the back of a cave, but you had no chance of getting it, would you try? No.
How would you even know it was there?

Most people who travel to Felarya in search of riches or power end up as fairy food. However there are some who are cunning, smart, suitably equipped or just really lucky (or all 4) to visit Felarya and return relatively unharmed with a a pocket full of diamonds or the Gem of Gal'borsh or what have you. These people are where the legends spring from.

Not all of these people are super powered mages or warriors with Amulets of extreme Unappetisement (Amulet of Extreme Unappetisement a new product of MUST), some are just average adventurers or unknowing people who got warped to Felarya and were lucky enough to net be eaten and stumble upon a dead warrior who's Amulet of Extreme Unappetisement failed to protect him from falling off that tree branch 40 feet up. (If you want something that does that you need the boots of excellent balance)
A percentage of treasure hunting newbs get dead in large numbers and many different ways in any adventure story. There's no story without some treasure hunters getting killed.

What gets me is that long term residents of Felarya never learn absolutely any survival lessons whatsoever, no survival instincts that even basic insects know, no way no how, and they only survive because someone bigger hasn't found them.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 6:38 am

To be fair, insects have insane survival instincts...
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 8:38 am

FalconJudge wrote:
To be fair, insects have insane survival instincts...
I think his point was more that people who have been natives of Felarya for generations, generations, see no problem camping out on their own in the middle of the forest with a nice big fire and strong aroma food sitting over top, with absolutely no attempt to hide such, and the moment they see a Giant Predator they very well should know exists they freeze up as though some creature from a long-disproved fantasy, or in the case of a Fairy immediately grab for their bug catching net (even if the Fairy's acting benevolently) and try to "Get rich".

In other words, people depicting the average Felarya citizen like a Darwin Award Winner who is the offspring of a potential Darwin Award Winner and a Signs Alien. Which is annoying, as it's less-than-desirable to read a story where every non-named Predator / Prey is going to be just smart enough to breathe and feed themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 1:52 pm

Malahite wrote:
FalconJudge wrote:
To be fair, insects have insane survival instincts...
I think his point was more that people who have been natives of Felarya for generations, generations, see no problem camping out on their own in the middle of the forest with a nice big fire and strong aroma food sitting over top, with absolutely no attempt to hide such, and the moment they see a Giant Predator they very well should know exists they freeze up as though some creature from a long-disproved fantasy, or in the case of a Fairy immediately grab for their bug catching net (even if the Fairy's acting benevolently) and try to "Get rich".

In other words, people depicting the average Felarya citizen like a Darwin Award Winner who is the offspring of a potential Darwin Award Winner and a Signs Alien. Which is annoying, as it's less-than-desirable to read a story where every non-named Predator / Prey is going to be just smart enough to breathe and feed themselves.

Unfortunately that is a problem with the writers, not the setting. Natives would know not to light fires. They would know to be quiet. It's that knowledge that has let them survive for generations. They know when to run, when to try to fight, and when to retaliate. Because they are Felaryan, and that is all they know.

However, that is indeed all they know. The majority of natives, and we are talking about the ones who live in the jungles and wilds, only know this life. For all they know, trying to move would get them all killed. And it likely would. Staying hidden is better than being on the move. They wouldn't know about Negav, or grenades, or guns. They might use rudimentary poisons, but only if they are lucky enough that such a thing would be availible. Focus stays on staying alive in a hostile enviroment. Why would they try to leave when they have no idea a better place even exists?
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