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 Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?

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Malahite
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 5:39 pm

CauldronBorn24 wrote:
So who benifits from this argument exactly? Felarya is limited to our writing, art work and wahatever Karbo has up his sleeve. It's your choice as to what you include in your story or other artisitic medium. It's also your choice as to who survives what, but doing so just for the sake of promoting your character, well that's a different argument all together. Unless we are all on the same playing field when it comes to our knowldege on 'weaponology' or even magic, this argument wont be settled, it will just be a continuation of rebuttal after rebuttal.

Which is why any subsequent arguing about it will invoke Felarya Science Stage 5, which states that unless you do a field test on an actual giant, it is to be dropped.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 8:22 pm

Anime-Junkie wrote:
If anyone says TL;DR to the above post, I'll throw a grenade at them. (I have one)

More grenades? *Goes insane*. cat



timing2 wrote:
Ah yes, but what about NUCLEAR hand grenades! Laughing

I will murder you in your sleep! Razz
(And due to physics, the smallest you can make a nuclear device that uses plutonium is about 51 lbs (Like this one!), so it's not really a grenade, and it requires a high level of technology and an industrial base to produce, but I have little doubt that detonating this inside of a predator's stomach would kill it instantly and give everything within a hundred feet lethal radiation poisoning. (Flesh, being mostly water, acts as a decent radiation shield, so the lethal dose range would be less from an internal blast than one that occurs in mid-air.))


CauldronBorn24 wrote:
A more reasonable method would be a concussion grenade, where the killing power and method is derived from the explosive force not the shrapnel.

EDIT: I know enoguh that the enduring effects of an explosive shockwave depend on density of the medium: A shockave will dispurse much quicker in air than in water thus a concussion grenade or stick of dynamite exploding directly onto the stomach wall will cause alot more damage than if it exploded directly in the centre.

Concussion waves are such a pain to figure out how they would go. They tend to reflect and refract when passing through different densities, which explains why simply placing and explosive on the surface tends to not damage the surface much: the vast majority of the explosive energy travels into the air instead.


Malahite wrote:
Onto this topic some more, to detract from things: Humans can be a threat to Giant Predators.\

Yep. In terms of Earth weaponry, though I haven't done the math, if the weapon doesn't say "Anti-Tank" or maybe possibly "Anti-Material", it's probably not going to be much use. Doing some simple googling leads me to believe that an anti-tank round fired from a recoilless rifle, like this one, could penetrate roughly 64 feet of flesh, which means that it could actually threaten vital organs... though the round would be about the size of a BB on us, and firing the thing would alert everyone within miles of your exact location. Oh, and the back blast would destroy all the vegetation behind you for meters, revealing your position instantly. It's also heavy, takes 10 seconds to reload, and you could only carry a few rounds. Still, it's better than nothing.


Archmage_Bael wrote:
personally I'm willing to accept oldman's explanation because I dont want to find the same amount of evidence to try and reubutt his arguement ^^

plus it seems detailed and sound enough to be proven true.

Victory through a technique I like to call "The Avalanche"! Razz Smile




CauldronBorn24 wrote:
So who benifits from this argument exactly?

The point of my post was this: something X was claimed to negate or otherwise severely change one or more of what I consider the fundamentals of Felarya. I showed that X isn't possible given Felaryan, or our own, physics, and therefore doesn't actually negate or severely change things.

That is, in my opinion there are certain things that Felarya is supposed to be, certain things that should happen and should be allowed, and some things that shouldn't happen, or shouldn't be allowed. You won't find me posting proof that giant preds can't exist because they would collapse under their own weight, because I feel that giant preds are something that Felarya is supposed to have. I also feel that smaller prey should not have an easy time fending off larger predators, because that removes too much of the danger from the world, so I post arguments against things that make it too easy to defeat preds. It just so happens that physics says that grenades aren't really a threat, but if physics had said otherwise I would have noted it, then posted an argument that we should do something (give the preds stronger stomachs or the like) to negate the grenades anyway.

So the purpose that this argument serves is "help to flesh out what Felarya is, and what it allows.", at least to some extent.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 9:25 pm

Oldman40k2003 wrote:
Grenades are not really that effective at crushing things into dust (IE: destruction via shock-wave), because they simply don't have enough explosive in them to do that. They are quite effective at what they are supposed to do, however, which is throw fragments. Hollywood almost never uses realistic grenade explosions in their movies, because those are small and boring.
We're getting hung up on the stomach thing here. As I did say more than once, the stomach is far from the only destination for a grenade. They would also tend to throw the grenade into the pred's mouth. If it's got a 4 second fuse like the Irish modified them to have, there's no way it'll even make it into the stomach. An explosion in the stomach is clearly debatable until hell freezes over, but in the mouth or throat?

rcs619 wrote:
You don't need to worry about inbreeding in a world where everyone is essentially immortal. People aren't going to be pressured to reproduce to continue the village. Some people would reproduce, sure...but its not like reproduction to have the village survive is going to be a major issue like it would be anywhere else.
But they do have sex, I assume. Sex sometimes leads to kids. If these people are dealing with early Renaissance tech, they're not going to have birth control around. Or are we talking about immortality with no sex, or they've found some way not to have kids, or...? What about evolution? Do these towns stay early Renaiisance level forever?

Oldman40k2003 wrote:
That is, in my opinion there are certain things that Felarya is supposed to be, certain things that should happen and should be allowed, and some things that shouldn't happen, or shouldn't be allowed. You won't find me posting proof that giant preds can't exist because they would collapse under their own weight, because I feel that giant preds are something that Felarya is supposed to have. I also feel that smaller prey should not have an easy time fending off larger predators, because that removes too much of the danger from the world, so I post arguments against things that make it too easy to defeat preds. It just so happens that physics says that grenades aren't really a threat, but if physics had said otherwise I would have noted it, then posted an argument that we should do something (give the preds stronger stomachs or the like) to negate the grenades anyway.
That's the whole thing. Nothing should be easy in Felarya; except that if you're the bigger P/pred, you easily win, with a few notable exceptions. You just have to be 10 times bigger than the prey you're after and it's all handed to you. Which is why I keep saying that this would cause all the smaller people to migrate away in search of safer ground in Felarya. I've never heard of sentient beings staying in a place where the odds are so badly stacked against them. Them Felaryan humans, nekos and tinies strike me as kind of dumb.

If life is meant to be so easy for P/preds then throw an endless supply of newb scouting parties at them. That works famously. Everyone else, though, is going to be trying to get out of Dodge.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 9:38 pm

Raveolution wrote:

That's the whole thing. Nothing should be easy in Felarya; except that if you're the bigger P/pred, you easily win, with a few notable exceptions. You just have to be 10 times bigger than the prey you're after and it's all handed to you. Which is why I keep saying that this would cause all the smaller people to migrate away in search of safer ground in Felarya. I've never heard of sentient beings staying in a place where the odds are so badly stacked against them. Them Felaryan humans, nekos and tinies strike me as kind of dumb.

If life is meant to be so easy for P/preds then throw an endless supply of newb scouting parties at them. That works famously. Everyone else, though, is going to be trying to get out of Dodge.

But that's the thing. If you leave Felarya you die. Felarya means immortality. Felarya means riches. Felarya means no sickness, no age. People stay for that reason, the odds are stacked, but the rewards are greater than anywhere else in the multiverse.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2010 11:46 pm

Silent_eric wrote:
Raveolution wrote:

That's the whole thing. Nothing should be easy in Felarya; except that if you're the bigger P/pred, you easily win, with a few notable exceptions. You just have to be 10 times bigger than the prey you're after and it's all handed to you. Which is why I keep saying that this would cause all the smaller people to migrate away in search of safer ground in Felarya. I've never heard of sentient beings staying in a place where the odds are so badly stacked against them. Them Felaryan humans, nekos and tinies strike me as kind of dumb.

If life is meant to be so easy for P/preds then throw an endless supply of newb scouting parties at them. That works famously. Everyone else, though, is going to be trying to get out of Dodge.

But that's the thing. If you leave Felarya you die. Felarya means immortality. Felarya means riches. Felarya means no sickness, no age. People stay for that reason, the odds are stacked, but the rewards are greater than anywhere else in the multiverse.
Exactly. If it wasn't so damn hard, the Felarya would be swamped in people looking for immortality, riches, cures and all that. It already is, the preds just keeps the numbers down.

Another thing.
Some are successful
If you knew there was a diamond the size of your fist in the back of a cave, but you had no chance of getting it, would you try? No.
How would you even know it was there?

Most people who travel to Felarya in search of riches or power end up as fairy food. However there are some who are cunning, smart, suitably equipped or just really lucky (or all 4) to visit Felarya and return relatively unharmed with a a pocket full of diamonds or the Gem of Gal'borsh or what have you. These people are where the legends spring from.

Not all of these people are super powered mages or warriors with Amulets of extreme Unappetisement (Amulet of Extreme Unappetisement a new product of MUST), some are just average adventurers or unknowing people who got warped to Felarya and were lucky enough to net be eaten and stumble upon a dead warrior who's Amulet of Extreme Unappetisement failed to protect him from falling off that tree branch 40 feet up. (If you want something that does that you need the boots of excellent balance)
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 6:00 am

Silent_eric wrote:
But that's the thing. If you leave Felarya you die. Felarya means immortality. Felarya means riches. Felarya means no sickness, no age. People stay for that reason, the odds are stacked, but the rewards are greater than anywhere else in the multiverse.
I can see people staying for the treasures and immortality. If Karbo says a grenade exploding in the mouth or throat is no problem then hey, it's no problem. But after the first P/pred attack on a tribe/town the humans/nekos/tinies (name your victim) status quo won't be maintained; except for newbies blundering into a given zone, sentient food always, without exception, fights back and if they can't, they become scarce (dies off or flees in search of a safer zone in Felarya). Either way life gets hard for their P/preds, by difficulty of hunt or sheer scarcity.

Why would someone sit pat in an area where a fairy just ate their friend?
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 6:04 am

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Silent_eric wrote:
Raveolution wrote:

That's the whole thing. Nothing should be easy in Felarya; except that if you're the bigger P/pred, you easily win, with a few notable exceptions. You just have to be 10 times bigger than the prey you're after and it's all handed to you. Which is why I keep saying that this would cause all the smaller people to migrate away in search of safer ground in Felarya. I've never heard of sentient beings staying in a place where the odds are so badly stacked against them. Them Felaryan humans, nekos and tinies strike me as kind of dumb.

If life is meant to be so easy for P/preds then throw an endless supply of newb scouting parties at them. That works famously. Everyone else, though, is going to be trying to get out of Dodge.

But that's the thing. If you leave Felarya you die. Felarya means immortality. Felarya means riches. Felarya means no sickness, no age. People stay for that reason, the odds are stacked, but the rewards are greater than anywhere else in the multiverse.
Exactly. If it wasn't so damn hard, the Felarya would be swamped in people looking for immortality, riches, cures and all that. It already is, the preds just keeps the numbers down.

Another thing.
Some are successful
If you knew there was a diamond the size of your fist in the back of a cave, but you had no chance of getting it, would you try? No.
How would you even know it was there?

Most people who travel to Felarya in search of riches or power end up as fairy food. However there are some who are cunning, smart, suitably equipped or just really lucky (or all 4) to visit Felarya and return relatively unharmed with a a pocket full of diamonds or the Gem of Gal'borsh or what have you. These people are where the legends spring from.

Not all of these people are super powered mages or warriors with Amulets of extreme Unappetisement (Amulet of Extreme Unappetisement a new product of MUST), some are just average adventurers or unknowing people who got warped to Felarya and were lucky enough to net be eaten and stumble upon a dead warrior who's Amulet of Extreme Unappetisement failed to protect him from falling off that tree branch 40 feet up. (If you want something that does that you need the boots of excellent balance)
A percentage of treasure hunting newbs get dead in large numbers and many different ways in any adventure story. There's no story without some treasure hunters getting killed.

What gets me is that long term residents of Felarya never learn absolutely any survival lessons whatsoever, no survival instincts that even basic insects know, no way no how, and they only survive because someone bigger hasn't found them.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 6:38 am

To be fair, insects have insane survival instincts...
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 8:38 am

FalconJudge wrote:
To be fair, insects have insane survival instincts...
I think his point was more that people who have been natives of Felarya for generations, generations, see no problem camping out on their own in the middle of the forest with a nice big fire and strong aroma food sitting over top, with absolutely no attempt to hide such, and the moment they see a Giant Predator they very well should know exists they freeze up as though some creature from a long-disproved fantasy, or in the case of a Fairy immediately grab for their bug catching net (even if the Fairy's acting benevolently) and try to "Get rich".

In other words, people depicting the average Felarya citizen like a Darwin Award Winner who is the offspring of a potential Darwin Award Winner and a Signs Alien. Which is annoying, as it's less-than-desirable to read a story where every non-named Predator / Prey is going to be just smart enough to breathe and feed themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 1:52 pm

Malahite wrote:
FalconJudge wrote:
To be fair, insects have insane survival instincts...
I think his point was more that people who have been natives of Felarya for generations, generations, see no problem camping out on their own in the middle of the forest with a nice big fire and strong aroma food sitting over top, with absolutely no attempt to hide such, and the moment they see a Giant Predator they very well should know exists they freeze up as though some creature from a long-disproved fantasy, or in the case of a Fairy immediately grab for their bug catching net (even if the Fairy's acting benevolently) and try to "Get rich".

In other words, people depicting the average Felarya citizen like a Darwin Award Winner who is the offspring of a potential Darwin Award Winner and a Signs Alien. Which is annoying, as it's less-than-desirable to read a story where every non-named Predator / Prey is going to be just smart enough to breathe and feed themselves.

Unfortunately that is a problem with the writers, not the setting. Natives would know not to light fires. They would know to be quiet. It's that knowledge that has let them survive for generations. They know when to run, when to try to fight, and when to retaliate. Because they are Felaryan, and that is all they know.

However, that is indeed all they know. The majority of natives, and we are talking about the ones who live in the jungles and wilds, only know this life. For all they know, trying to move would get them all killed. And it likely would. Staying hidden is better than being on the move. They wouldn't know about Negav, or grenades, or guns. They might use rudimentary poisons, but only if they are lucky enough that such a thing would be availible. Focus stays on staying alive in a hostile enviroment. Why would they try to leave when they have no idea a better place even exists?
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2010 10:22 am

Silent_eric wrote:
However, that is indeed all they know. The majority of natives, and we are talking about the ones who live in the jungles and wilds, only know this life. For all they know, trying to move would get them all killed. And it likely would. Staying hidden is better than being on the move. They wouldn't know about Negav, or grenades, or guns. They might use rudimentary poisons, but only if they are lucky enough that such a thing would be availible. Focus stays on staying alive in a hostile enviroment. Why would they try to leave when they have no idea a better place even exists?
So when a Pred actually attacks them where they're hiding, they stay right there when it's over and don't try to move away?

Inevitably they'll all get picked off...
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2010 9:59 pm

thats not the point. Hiding is your best chance, technology higher than early 20th century tech is rare. Plus if you're spotted in a hiding spot like that you'd be screwed. Brute force is too inefficient in felarya.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 16, 2010 4:38 am

Archmage_Bael wrote:
thats not the point. Hiding is your best chance, technology higher than early 20th century tech is rare. Plus if you're spotted in a hiding spot like that you'd be screwed. Brute force is too inefficient in felarya.
If they can hide then life still becomes hard for a predator: they can't find their prey. But if a sentient gets attacked by a predator they can't beat they're going to move away. Or they will die when the next attack comes. We're talking about sentients, not rabbits. So which is it? Does the predator run out of prey by eating them all or by running them off?
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 16, 2010 9:00 am

Raveolution wrote:
If they can hide then life still becomes hard for a predator: they can't find their prey. But if a sentient gets attacked by a predator they can't beat they're going to move away.
last time I checked predators are sentient too Razz

Raveolution wrote:
Or they will die when the next attack comes. We're talking about sentients, not rabbits. So which is it? Does the predator run out of prey by eating them all or by running them off?

I would disregard your typo, as I'm pretty sure you meant "prey" and not "sentient" but here you make it sound like predators are just wild animals. A sentient predator will still do whats most advantageous, they'd most likely eat all the prey in a small group that they find, and then go do something else.

That's the point I made anyway, if you're in that kind of a position in the first place you'd still be screwed. Who exactly is being "run off" anyway? A small group of people? or A large one? Safety in numbers in felarya is incredibly deceptive.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 21, 2010 6:00 pm

Raveolution wrote:
A percentage of treasure hunting newbs get dead in large numbers and many different ways in any adventure story. There's no story without some treasure hunters getting killed.

What gets me is that long term residents of Felarya never learn absolutely any survival lessons whatsoever, no survival instincts that even basic insects know, no way no how, and they only survive because someone bigger hasn't found them.
I think I've only written two stories in which treasure hunters get eaten. What do I win? Wink

It's mentioned in the wiki, but the one of the ways to ensure survival if you're going to be in one place with a significant population is to try to befriend any giant predator(s) in your territory. Without that or without some really potent magical, technological, or natural defenses, it's only a matter of time before some predator finds you and does its thing. Think about what a wandering flock of fairies could do. The problem is predators have so many methods of detecting prey, it's hard to counter them all. And the more people in one area, the harder it becomes to mask their presence.

When I came up with the Verdoya tribe of tomthumbs, I gave them an underground home in an isolated gully. As tomthumbs, they're pretty much at the bottom of the food chain. They have no magic or technology (other than poisoned weapons) to back them up. They didn't have a giant predator looking out for them. They survived mainly by being clever and minimizing exposure to risk. Even so, they lost members of the tribe to predation. And then they were unlucky enough to attract the attention of a wandering group of nekos who decided to wait the tomthumbs out rather than move on. I think you've read that on my dA page, so you know what took place. That's the kind of thing I see happening to any group of smaller "prey" in Felarya, under the same circumstances.


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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 21, 2010 6:03 pm

I dunno. The Verdoya tribe is a pretty exceptional bunch of tomthumbs. I don't think every tribe of them is going to be able to pull something like that off.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeTue Apr 26, 2011 10:30 am

Anime-Junkie wrote:
If anyone says TL;DR to the above post, I'll throw a grenade at them. (I have one)

I have an armed 95 mm shell.
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PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeTue Apr 26, 2011 10:39 am

I don't think that will help, considering you necroposted a YEAR OLD thread.

Be careful with the dates Vore, especially when they aren't on topic.
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Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitimeTue Apr 26, 2011 1:34 pm

vore4life99 wrote:
Anime-Junkie wrote:
If anyone says TL;DR to the above post, I'll throw a grenade at them. (I have one)

I have an armed 95 mm shell.

Kindly avoid necro-posting in a year-old thread, especially if it's not to contribute anything useful.

Thread locked.
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Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?   Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle? - Page 4 Icon_minitime

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