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rphb
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PostSubject: Is Notys Atlas?   Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:13 pm

I have read all three volumes and though the story is compelling, the universe has some internal inconsistencies. I would try to explain the inconsistencies here and come with possible solutions.

As with all science fiction not everything needs to follow the present known laws of physics, as many things can be different in a different reality. But one thing that is truly universal is logic. If someone tries to tell you that in there universe 2+2=5 then they is surely mistaken. Of course they can say that the sign ď5Ē means I+I+I+I units, then they havenít really said anything at all, and therefore cannot be mistaking.
What I am concerned about in Felarya is the topic evolution. The problem is that there is a clear inconsistency between the way the predators act, and the way the predators live.

There is nothing illogical about a predator having territories, and living more or less solitary existences like the nagas does in Felarya. The tiger is an example for such a predator.
The problem is that that kind of predator needs completely different social competencies then for example the lion or the wolf, which lives in packs. A solitary predator is naturally antisocial and hostile towards other predators, as there presence can only mean topple. This is for the simple reason that a solitary predator simply doesnít need others, so they only seek company doing mating seasons.
This is wary different from a social predator, that lives in packs and has a division of labor. It is here in this seating of interdependence that social skills develop; the social skills that the predators in Felarya clearly have developed.
This inconsistency can only mean one of two things:

1) The predators we have seen so far, are only exceptions to the norm, and the majority do lives more or less in structured societies, or:

2) The predators of Felarya is no natural phenomena, and have been made by a creator. This can be both more or less conscious, but the species that they were before must have been one that lived in a society. Unnatural intervention is simply the only way to explain the inconsistency between the way they live, and the way they interact.

I hope Karbo that you agree whit my deduction in this, something I think that you have yourself hinted at in the ending of volume three.


Another curiosity is the fact that we havenít seen a male naga. I am actually a little perplexed about how there anatomy would be. It would be most logical if there genitals where hidden within their body, and they only became extracted when used. Genitals are something that needs to be protected, and with the general anatomy of the naga body that area would in many situations be under a lot of stress, and would as a consequence require hard study hide; external male genitals would for that reason be quite and inconvenience. If nagas are, or were originally created artificially, as many things hint that they must be, then external male genitals would be possible despite the handicap they would create. This would also explain why all nagas seen so far have been female, as a male naga would be considerable weaker due to his lesser measurability.
I would like to request the introduction of a male naga in volume four, as I am quite curios as to how they look like. I would also like to see a mating ritual with one or possible more females. I think that it would be a great artistic challenge, and a great plot twist. One thing that the story have yet to present are a romance. It would be fun to see Anna falling for a charming male. I have actually half made a character already. I havenít given him a name, but he is a charming intellectual, with long grey hair, that instead of eating his pray right away, keeps them in a cage, so he can eat when hungry and use the majority of his time with intellectual contemplating. His hobby is map making, and he have constructed a house inside a tree, with real furniture, most prominent a bed and a study table. Except the normal naga food, he also likes a good cup of tea. He has made his own tea set out of clay which he has neatly decorated. He is also a wary talented painter.

This would also create a love triangle as, as one of the other female nage, unfortunately I have misplaced where exactly it is, is in love with Anna. I hope you can see the dynamic and the jalousie this side plot can develop. Even if it doesnít go anywhere, or be part of the main events, I still think that this I a fun side story, and I hope that you would at least consider it.


Last edited by rphb on Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:38 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : I want to change the treat to what it is more relevantly about.)
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:30 pm

Welcome to Felarya.

Quote :
The predators we have seen so far, are only exceptions to the norm, and the majority do lives more or less in structured societies, or:

Most giant predators don't live in structured societies. The exceptions would be some fairies such as the Crimson Maidens as they might live in tribes, possibly some giant dridders and I believe the Jotuns. Besides that most giant races tend to be more loners that might associate with other giant predators, but not live in a society.

Quote :
The predators of Felarya is no natural phenomena, and have been made by a creator. This can be both more or less conscious, but the species that they were before must have been one that lived in a society. Unnatural intervention is simply the only way to explain the inconsistency between the way they live, and the way they interact.

I don't know quite what you mean here. Hybrids would not be 'natural' yes, but they mostly have a mix of traits from both their animal base and human half, soooo. Clarification on what you're saying?

Quote :
Another curiosity is the fact that we havenít seen a male naga. I am actually a little perplexed about how there anatomy would be. It would be most logical if there genitals where hidden within their body, and they only became extracted when used. Genitals are something that needs to be protected, and with the general anatomy of the naga body that area would in many situations be under a lot of stress, and would as a consequence require hard study hide; external male genitals would for that reason be quite and inconvenience. If nagas are, or were originally created artificially, as many things hint that they must be, then external male genitals would be possible despite the handicap they would create. This would also explain why all nagas seen so far have been female, as a male naga would be considerable weaker due to his lesser measurability.

I have a male naga, Monty. His genitalia are internal, hidden by his belly scales. I don't know if Karbo intends to introduce a male naga into the manga, but existing male nagas and most other hybrids would likely follow this anatomy.

Quote :
I have actually half made a character already. I havenít given him a name, but he is a charming intellectual, with long grey hair, that instead of eating his pray right away, keeps them in a cage, so he can eat when hungry and use the majority of his time with intellectual contemplating. His hobby is map making, and he have constructed a house inside a tree, with real furniture, most prominent a bed and a study table. Except the normal naga food, he also likes a good cup of tea. He has made his own tea set out of clay which he has neatly decorated. He is also a wary talented painter.

Perhaps you could post what you have on him in Character Discussion?

As it is some characters have made cameos in the manga, but first were already incorporated into canon. The Wiki is where this information can be found.

(Also, I believe that General Discussion would be a better place for this thread. I shall move it there.)

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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:45 am

First of all, welcome to Felarya!

rphb wrote:
I have read all three volumes and though the story is compelling, the universe has some internal inconsistencies.

One important point here is that the mangas do not include the totality of Felaryan canon. Anything in the mangas is, of course, canon, but for a more complete look, you should browse the wiki (as Fish indicated).

Quote :

I would try to explain the inconsistencies here and come with possible solutions.

As with all science fiction not everything needs to follow the present known laws of physics, as many things can be different in a different reality. But one thing that is truly universal is logic. If someone tries to tell you that in there universe 2+2=5 then they is surely mistaken. Of course they can say that the sign ď5Ē means I+I+I+I units, then they havenít really said anything at all, and therefore cannot be mistaking.
What I am concerned about in Felarya is the topic evolution. The problem is that there is a clear inconsistency between the way the predators act, and the way the predators live.

There is nothing illogical about a predator having territories, and living more or less solitary existences like the nagas does in Felarya. The tiger is an example for such a predator.
The problem is that that kind of predator needs completely different social competencies then for example the lion or the wolf, which lives in packs. A solitary predator is naturally antisocial and hostile towards other predators, as there presence can only mean topple. This is for the simple reason that a solitary predator simply doesnít need others, so they only seek company doing mating seasons.
This is wary different from a social predator, that lives in packs and has a division of labor. It is here in this seating of interdependence that social skills develop; the social skills that the predators in Felarya clearly have developed.

Interesting points, but you're forgetting two important things.

First, giant nagas and a number of other top predators are sentient. They aren't driven solely by instinct. Thus they can develop friendships on the basis of compatible personalities, for example - something which "non-sentient" predators, in general, wouldn't do.

Second, hostility towards other predators makes sense if they're competing for scarce resources. In Felarya, that's not the case. Resources are abundant.

I think it was Zoekin who once wrote a story in which his naga Katrika asked Crisis whether she (Katrika) wouldn't be an unwelcome presence, due to feeding on her hunting grounds. Crisis reassured her that there was more than enough food to go around.

Quote :

Another curiosity is the fact that we havenít seen a male naga. I am actually a little perplexed about how there anatomy would be. It would be most logical if there genitals where hidden within their body, and they only became extracted when used. Genitals are something that needs to be protected, and with the general anatomy of the naga body that area would in many situations be under a lot of stress, and would as a consequence require hard study hide; external male genitals would for that reason be quite and inconvenience. If nagas are, or were originally created artificially, as many things hint that they must be, then external male genitals would be possible despite the handicap they would create. This would also explain why all nagas seen so far have been female, as a male naga would be considerable weaker due to his lesser measurability.
I would like to request the introduction of a male naga in volume four, as I am quite curios as to how they look like.

That there have been no male nagas in the mangas doesn't mean there are none in Felaryan canon. As Fish said, there's Monty, who's been central to several stories. And there used to be Zoekin's smaller male naga Talwin. Less prominent has been my male naga Ajab - local herbalist, and not the most outgoing of personalities. (I haven't developed him much yet, but I've got a story planned where we'll be seeing more of him.)

It's been established that male nagas keep their genitals within, producing them only when needed.

Karbo doodled Monty here. As you can see, no external genitals.

Quote :

I would also like to see a mating ritual with one or possible more females. I think that it would be a great artistic challenge, and a great plot twist. One thing that the story have yet to present are a romance. It would be fun to see Anna falling for a charming male.

I have to concur there. Anna in love would be interesting to see. Especially Anna in love with a giant naga, while she's still struggling with her own transformation. Laughing

Quote :

I have actually half made a character already. I havenít given him a name, but he is a charming intellectual, with long grey hair, that instead of eating his pray right away, keeps them in a cage, so he can eat when hungry and use the majority of his time with intellectual contemplating. His hobby is map making, and he have constructed a house inside a tree, with real furniture, most prominent a bed and a study table. Except the normal naga food, he also likes a good cup of tea. He has made his own tea set out of clay which he has neatly decorated. He is also a wary talented painter.

He sounds interesting. And more male nagas would be welcome.

In some ways, he'd be similar to my giantess Milly. She too stores prey in a cage for future meals. (Or at least, did so until recently.) She has a hut in the forest, with basic furniture. She's never tasted tea, but she likes chocolate. She doesn't paint, but she messes about with clay modeling now and then.

I'd be interested to know why a naga lives this way, though. Milly's lifestyle is different to that of other giant predators because she comes from another world, where she was used to a roof over her head and a few basic comforts. Would the same be true of your naga?

Quote :

This would also create a love triangle as, as one of the other female nage, unfortunately I have misplaced where exactly it is, is in love with Anna. I hope you can see the dynamic and the jalousie this side plot can develop. Even if it doesnít go anywhere, or be part of the main events, I still think that this I a fun side story, and I hope that you would at least consider it.

You're thinking of Katrika, Zoekin's main character.

For the rest, of course, that's up to Karbo... So far, his characters have remained unattached.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:50 am

Thatís a lot of replies in one day.

Let me try to answer as best as I am able.
Starting with my character, whom we can call Leopold, lives that way, not because he originated from another world, but because many of the things that he enjoys: painting, mapmaking, tea, requires a dry climate, and as Felarya is a jungle, it would also often rain. He lives at the same near his house, both because it is more practical, but also to guard it, from others that might otherwise try to steel it. Being a firenaga he is also generally unfound of water as is, so he prefers to sleep somewhere dry. A cave would have the same effect, but the hollow tree made house is better for several reasons, the primary being of convenience, there is simply no caves in the area, but plenty of trees. The second is that he likes to decorate and have a more civilized appearance. He fancies himself of being cultivated and looks down on ďsavageryĒ.
A bad side to him is of course that he is a bit snobby, and he have a particularly hatred to harpies whom he consider the embodiment of all that is profound. He himself never swears, and has made it his virtue always to be polite and respectful, even to the people he his eating. Many adventures have mistakenly believed, his politeness and understanding means that he wonít eat them, but that is unfortunately for them, really the case.
There are of course exceptions. If he finds a fellow scholar that are ďas intelligent and wise as himselfĒ, he might really not eat them, and instead bring them to safety so they can continue there research. There is a small grope of humans living in Negav City or elsewhere that he has regularly correspondence with, all of whom he originally captured in the forest.

For the love triangle, the other naga I referred to Katrika. My idea is that after Anna is starting to have feelings for him, Katrika and is starting to plot her revenge. One day she breaks in to his house to totally mess with one of his paintings. She gets caught but instead of being mad, heís trilled. He has been working on that picture for months but he has never been completely satisfied, it has always been missing something. Then she comes and makes the most beautiful abstract painting he has ever seen. He charms her socks off, figuratively speaking of course, and in the end she too starts to have feelings for him. This of course makes her vary confused about what to think. I am not sure if Karbo will take it or where it would go from there, but I know what Leopold wants and I hope that you do too.


The next objection, have more to do with Felarya logic then the characters as such.
The Nagas and many of the other predators are hybrids, this is the key point, not that they are sentient. I personally believe that both lions and tigers are sentient too, and I am willing to prepare a long defense on this subject if anyone is willing to object. I wonít do it know, because frankly I find it irrelevant.
What you want in life depends on your evolutionary history. I do make room for Free Will and personal taste in my equation but you will find both to be of lesser and lesser significance the larger the population it is you are examining.
I am also not totally convinced that nagas are hybrids, they might be chimeras instead. A hybrid is for example a mule, half horse half ass, but no part of the mule is completely horse or ass. A Chimera on the other hand have body part of different animals, and each of these body parts are 100% that animal Scientist have made many different animals of that sort, for example the geep, half sheep, half goat see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep%E2%80%93goat_chimera
In the Simpson episode: S11E02 Brother's Little Helper
The scientist that made Barts Focusyn, also have a parrot-octopus chimera. It would properly take a long time before scientist can play God on that level, but a Chimera is like a jigsaw where you purposefully put wrong pieces together, but it is still possible to see and distinguish where the different pieces are from.
I am not sure however that either of the terms would be correct when we are talking about a species, ass all the alterations would need to be contained and correctly sorted in there reproduction systems. We have no knowledge about how this should be done, as all hybrids known today are sterile, and all chimeras produce normal offspring from that species there genitals belong to.
One thing is for certain though; all the predators of Felarya contain irreducible complexities, which mean that there must be some kind of intelligent design.
This is of course not the case with normal humans. I donít want to explain why I just want anyone that might object to read a little elementary biology. Another point is that the existence of irreducible complexities doesnít mean that there is no evolution merely that the species in question did not evolve naturally. This is exactly my point that the predators of Felarya canít.

This is also the only thing that can explain there humanlike relations. Plentiful or not, a solitary predator would never welcome another predator into there territory because they wouldnít need them. If living in a society hasnít been a big part of your evolution you would never have developed a social intelligence. There is nothing inconsistent of all the predators of Felarya living like we have seen, if there ancestors before there species was created lived in societies.


A new curiosity I have is regarding Naga reproduction, we have never seen a naga mother or child, but logic dictates that they must care for there young. Even with the unnatural heritage of there race they still need to know bond and trust from a young age to develop the character trait that we see. If they needed to struggle and be successions of everything and everyone from day one, they would naturally become solitary and hostile themselves. I donít know how long it would take them to grow to adulthood, but based on there anatomy, they would give birth to one or two children at a time, each child being about 5% of adult height and weight at birth.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:39 pm

rphb wrote:
Thatís a lot of replies in one day.

Let me try to answer as best as I am able.
Starting with my character, whom we can call Leopold, lives that way, not because he originated from another world, but because many of the things that he enjoys: painting, mapmaking, tea, requires a dry climate, and as Felarya is a jungle, it would also often rain. He lives at the same near his house, both because it is more practical, but also to guard it, from others that might otherwise try to steel it. Being a firenaga he is also generally unfound of water as is, so he prefers to sleep somewhere dry. A cave would have the same effect, but the hollow tree made house is better for several reasons, the primary being of convenience, there is simply no caves in the area, but plenty of trees. The second is that he likes to decorate and have a more civilized appearance. He fancies himself of being cultivated and looks down on ďsavageryĒ.
A bad side to him is of course that he is a bit snobby, and he have a particularly hatred to harpies whom he consider the embodiment of all that is profound. He himself never swears, and has made it his virtue always to be polite and respectful, even to the people he his eating. Many adventures have mistakenly believed, his politeness and understanding means that he wonít eat them, but that is unfortunately for them, really the case.
There are of course exceptions. If he finds a fellow scholar that are ďas intelligent and wise as himselfĒ, he might really not eat them, and instead bring them to safety so they can continue there research. There is a small grope of humans living in Negav City or elsewhere that he has regularly correspondence with, all of whom he originally captured in the forest.

For the love triangle, the other naga I referred to Katrika. My idea is that after Anna is starting to have feelings for him, Katrika and is starting to plot her revenge. One day she breaks in to his house to totally mess with one of his paintings. She gets caught but instead of being mad, heís trilled. He has been working on that picture for months but he has never been completely satisfied, it has always been missing something. Then she comes and makes the most beautiful abstract painting he has ever seen. He charms her socks off, figuratively speaking of course, and in the end she too starts to have feelings for him. This of course makes her vary confused about what to think. I am not sure if Karbo will take it or where it would go from there, but I know what Leopold wants and I hope that you do too.

If you want to write a story on him feel free to write it Very Happy

rphb wrote:

The next objection, have more to do with Felarya logic then the characters as such.
The Nagas and many of the other predators are hybrids, this is the key point, not that they are sentient. I personally believe that both lions and tigers are sentient too, and I am willing to prepare a long defense on this subject if anyone is willing to object. I wonít do it know, because frankly I find it irrelevant.
What you want in life depends on your evolutionary history. I do make room for Free Will and personal taste in my equation but you will find both to be of lesser and lesser significance the larger the population it is you are examining.
I am also not totally convinced that nagas are hybrids, they might be chimeras instead. A hybrid is for example a mule, half horse half ass, but no part of the mule is completely horse or ass. A Chimera on the other hand have body part of different animals, and each of these body parts are 100% that animal Scientist have made many different animals of that sort, for example the geep, half sheep, half goat see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep%E2%80%93goat_chimera
In the Simpson episode: S11E02 Brother's Little Helper
The scientist that made Barts Focusyn, also have a parrot-octopus chimera. It would properly take a long time before scientist can play God on that level, but a Chimera is like a jigsaw where you purposefully put wrong pieces together, but it is still possible to see and distinguish where the different pieces are from.
I am not sure however that either of the terms would be correct when we are talking about a species, ass all the alterations would need to be contained and correctly sorted in there reproduction systems. We have no knowledge about how this should be done, as all hybrids known today are sterile, and all chimeras produce normal offspring from that species there genitals belong to.
One thing is for certain though; all the predators of Felarya contain irreducible complexities, which mean that there must be some kind of intelligent design.
This is of course not the case with normal humans. I donít want to explain why I just want anyone that might object to read a little elementary biology. Another point is that the existence of irreducible complexities doesnít mean that there is no evolution merely that the species in question did not evolve naturally. This is exactly my point that the predators of Felarya canít.

It's an interesting point, I think the term "hybrid" can not be interpreted in a strict biological point of view but more symbolical side. First, it's obvious some predator are not hybrids creatures like a mule or real hybrids like on Earth, in the case of naga, dridders, mermaids, neko etc.... are called "hybrids" because they are the result of the mix of two entities most of the times, they are "hybrids" in that way. Other details there are some creatures defined as chimeras as Notys or the dem-chimeras, this creature are constant in the shape but they belong to the same specie. So the word "chimeras" and "hybrids" can't be interpreted in the same was in a biological domain

rphb wrote:
This is also the only thing that can explain there humanlike relations. Plentiful or not, a solitary predator would never welcome another predator into there territory because they wouldnít need them. If living in a society hasnít been a big part of your evolution you would never have developed a social intelligence. There is nothing inconsistent of all the predators of Felarya living like we have seen, if there ancestors before there species was created lived in societies.
Except predators as we known don't have the ability to speak the same language or have a discussion as we humans have. In the same area many sentient predators have to coexist, they have the choice to be hostile or to be more diplomatic depending to the individual the nature of the relation will vary from an individuals to another.


rphb wrote:
A new curiosity I have is regarding Naga reproduction, we have never seen a naga mother or child, but logic dictates that they must care for there young. Even with the unnatural heritage of there race they still need to know bond and trust from a young age to develop the character trait that we see. If they needed to struggle and be successions of everything and everyone from day one, they would naturally become solitary and hostile themselves. I donít know how long it would take them to grow to adulthood, but based on there anatomy, they would give birth to one or two children at a time, each child being about 5% of adult height and weight at birth.
You didn't read Rin's adventure, or Crisis' bio about her childhood. Some people write many fictions about the youth of their predator's characters you should search them.


Last edited by gwadahunter2222 on Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:43 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : minor rephrasing)
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:23 pm

I think pretty much everything I was going to mention has been said already, but I'd like to say that, from what I've seen, the taurian preds having unnatural origins is not an unpopular theory. My own character, Zion, muses to himself that it's probable at the beginning of my most recent chapter.

Yeah, I'd have to say that nagas, dridders, mermaids, chilotaurs, harpies, possibly even dryads, and all those types of preds are not natural. I mean, the idea that several separate species would evolve with an almost perfect divide between a human upper half and an animal lower half doesn't seem right to me. If you ask me, I smell genetic engineering (you can argue that it has magical origins, but don't forget that I usually blend magic and science, so even magical means would fall under "genetic engineering" in my personal opinion).

As to the romances... well, I suppose that's not my forte. Personal history has shown me, time and time again, that dabbling in romance is not wise for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:17 am

My argument was not out of probabilities but about absolutes. It is absolutely certain that they did not develop naturally, because I have pointed out and located an irreducible complexity. This does not need to have a drastic effect on storyline though.
My argument about childhood are the same, you canít develop friendly characteristic or sapience if you havenít had a nurturing mother, being it your biological or not.

The character I came with was a suggestion nothing more. I involve several characters that I have not created and have no ownership over.
I donít have the right to deem something canonic or not, and I donít see the point in writing anything that might be discarded.
I doubt very much that Karbo will allow me to use his characters that might not fit into his plan for the universe.
If I must be frank I honestly donít understand how anything but a pure fan based community can exist, as the creator must have complete control and final say about everything.
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PostSubject: Science vs. magic   Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:47 am

Ps. About your comment about magic and science. I know that I have said several times that I donít want to reveal anything about the universe I am working on. But I think I own you this one thing at least, and beside itís too out of context for you to lead to anything.

ďMagic and science are fundamentally differed. There difference lies in a very simple way, there intent. Science seeks to grasp the truth about the universe. Scientist wants to learn to understand. A mage wants the opposite. He wants to control, he wants to command. For a scientist his inability not to affect the thing he is examining is a weakness, for the mage it is his strength. He wants to affect, he donít care about understanding, because he know that he cannot. Magic is known as the arcane art. It is arcane because it is hidden from this that does not have the eyes to see, it is an art, because it can never be understood but only felt. If you want to be a mage the first thing you need to understand is that magic is fueled by your emotions and innermost desires, reason and logic have no place in magic, not because they are not there but because they are not relevant for your use. And that is exactly what you do, you use magic.
A sorcerer have always been a creature to be feared. He is feared because he do what you canít neither do nor dream. He his not afraid and he affect you in a way that you do not understand. You have seen him in the streets, you have felt his presence, but you have never really understood, and that is your mistake. How do you define a mage then? Are you a mage when you can effect the minds of others, when you can alter there belief and there thoughts without them even knowing, or are you first a mage that day that your will becomes so strong that even physical reality starts to bend by your passing? By reading this you may already have taken the first step to becoming a wizardís apprentices or you may forever be struck in the mediocrity that is your life.
One thing is certain; the wizard will always be rare, for as his powers grow, he affect not only himself and the people around him, but also the magic itself. That is why magic is an art, it can never be understood before it has become history and mute.
Know this, and despair - you will never be a mage.Ē

I hope this quote from one of my unfinished books, helps to underline my point.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:06 am

Well magic can be more than just innermost desires. It depends on the person weilding the magic. Maybe someone shows magical talent but it's not in their innermost desire to become a mage?

Also, hybrid creatures might not have evolved naturally, or they might have. There's no way to tell, you must remember that the multiverse is an unimaginably massive place, and to think that we know all there is to know about biology and physics pertaining to it is just arrogant and stupid.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:17 am

rphb wrote:
My argument was not out of probabilities but about absolutes. It is absolutely certain that they did not develop naturally, because I have pointed out and located an irreducible complexity. This does not need to have a drastic effect on storyline though.
This point has been raised in many discussions on this forums many times and people have already admitted it's obvious the existence of the predators is not really natural. Karbo said there is an explanation behind that and prefers to keep it secret from now. Maybe he will explain it in the manga.

rphb wrote:
My argument about childhood are the same, you canít develop friendly characteristic or sapience if you havenít had a nurturing mother, being it your biological or not.
For the case of Crisis, it's Temi who plays this role. Rin in Rin's adventure had a mother she died by protecting her daughter but Rin found cpt Falcon, Terra and Kiki who helped her to develop social relationship. In many stories even if some characters started orphan they always find someone who plays the role of parents for them.

rphb wrote:
The character I came with was a suggestion nothing more. I involve several characters that I have not created and have no ownership over.
I donít have the right to deem something canonic or not, and I donít see the point in writing anything that might be discarded.
I doubt very much that Karbo will allow me to use his characters that might not fit into his plan for the universe.
If I must be frank I honestly donít understand how anything but a pure fan based community can exist, as the creator must have complete control and final say about everything.
In my knowledge, he never makes a particular opposition about using his characters in a story on Felarya because you will be surprise about the number of stories involving Crisis and Anna.


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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:51 pm

Maybe you are right; maybe I just should try to right the story. It can be tiring to invest so much time in a novel that always seems to be one step forward to step back. Maybe I should try to post something sometime, but it could be fun to write a short story in another universe, and this is small enough to care. I will give it some though. Any hint on where I would be publishing it if I were? Here or in deviant?
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:07 pm

Either is fine, really. People will find it easily enough on either.

There are more writers who post on dA than here, though.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:11 pm

What I like to do is post my stuff first here, on the forum, in bits and get reaction and criticism before posting full edited chapters on DA.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:43 pm

rphb wrote:
Magic and science are fundamentally differed. There difference lies in a very simple way, there intent. Science seeks to grasp the truth about the universe. Scientist wants to learn to understand. A mage wants the opposite. He wants to control, he wants to command.
See, here my views diverge from thine.

I simply see magic as an application of an as-of-yet unexplained phenomenon in which the sentient mind connects to the physical universe to manipulate energy or matter. In the end, scientists also seek to control. You're not describing a difference between magic and science, you're describing the line between "pure science" and "technology". Pure science seeks knowledge for the sheer sake of knowledge. Technology seeks to apply that same knowledge and put it to use. Thus, magic could be considered a form of technology. (Note that I am not talking about technology as the term is commonly used, I am talking about the true definition, which means "applied science". It doesn't have to be machinery. Machines are just a prime example of technology.)

Due to my view, I'm very fond of stressing the relation between magic and science. Though Zion can produce fire and electricity, he often remarks about the physics of thermal energy or electrons, and how it ties into the ability. For instance, he has to consciously keep the combusting air separate from his clothes, lest he catch fire. The very source of his powers is rooted in his scientific knowledge. He can produce electricity because he learned the tiniest intracies of electron movement in an electrical current, and practiced (with all the intensity of a victim of Aspberger's Syndrome) the techniques required to understand the current's effects on spacetime and the astral plane (the plane of the mind). It was through understanding all the relationships involved that he became able to control.

See, I consider Zion the embodiment of "knowledge is power". That's why he often triumphs against natural magicians, because they're just wielding power whose cause they barely understand, even if they understand the usage. He uses his superior knowledge to come out on top.

In my opinion, scientists don't need to seek control, because it is by understanding that control becomes an option.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:32 am

(Takes a deep breath. Breathes out)

Alright, Zion. He's saying what works for him. As far as anyone knows, magic doesn't exist. So magic could be anything, and able to be anything it will stay. Unless you're going to racemaster7 and writing a fanfic overthrowing Gregory in Magic Mountain to use its power to reverse-control all imagination in humanity to create thus an unified magic theory we'll all be compelled to follow.
And please stop rambling about Zion Atreides at every chance you get. You're tempting me to do the same about mine. And then we'd never, ever be able to stop.

Rphb, yeah, predators don't need friends. Nobody really needs friends. Then again, I'm sure you don't need sunlight or dryness yourself, and I don't really see you living in the gutter emerging periodically to go to work. Then again, you raise a good point. I had thought that maybe fairies are a bit more intertwined with Felarya's nature than we all realize, that they have some sort of function as a whole... such as making sure everyone shares a laugh from time to time, keeping everyone friendly.

Now, let yourself make the mistake that kills almost everyone in Felarya, and assume that just 'cuz the top half is human that godawful man-eating thing could be a loving mother. Assume they all love their mothers, and are sociable enough to tolerate each other... in small doses. They're territorial, yes. Crisis has fought for her territory at times. Specially against dridders. But that's beside the point: predators are able to enjoy a good laugh together from time to time. That doesn't mean they all live together and say good nights to each other.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:55 pm

Kiiiiinda what I meant about people being abrasive. You probably could have phrased that in a manner that's a little less confrontational. Then again, I'm currently in an argument with someone else, so I'm probably just being touchy. *shrugs*

I know that everyone's got different theories. I'm simply putting mine out there, because this is, last time I checked, "General DISCUSSION". Hey, er, notice that second word in the title? Yeah, discussion. Meaning that he puts his ideas out there, I put mine, and we civilly comment on them. Do I think my view is a good one? Of course, that's why I use it. Am I insulting his? Not really, maybe I just think mine makes more sense, or whatnot. For all I know, he might like something I said, and decide to integrate it. I know I've done that before.

As for the shameless character ads... okay, yes, I'm bad about that. But I've tried to limit myself to only doing it when it strictly pertains to the subject at hand. Also, last time I checked, I'm not the only one to do that. Plenty of people have mentioned characters, whether theirs or someone else's, to use as examples for a point. If I could think of another's character that illustrated MY IDEA of magic/science correlation, I would have used that character. But, and it's really funny how this works, the best illustration of my system is someone created by me.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:18 pm

No no, I never claimed they would, only that they by simple logic must be caring mothers. A hyena is a caring mother, more or less, but they donít care about anything else, including there siblings. Actually that cat is a bad example as hyenas are fucking monsters. But thatís just it. If you want to be anything but a monster, you need to have warm trusting relationship. Itís simple psychology, if you are betrayed as a child and have to fend for yourself, with no one to trust other then yourself, you become a monster. Itís inevitable. It may not be all hardcore criminals that have a broken past, but all that have a broken past, are hardcore criminals.

Itís quite obvious that the predators of Felarya are not monsters. They are caring sentient individuals that just have peculiar food habit.
But is that unmoral?

Leopold my male fire naga loves a good discussion. One of his preys challenges him, and says that what he does is wrong. That it is wrong to eat a sentient being.
ďIs it wrong? Exactly why? Where you forced to come her, where you unaware of the danger? Didnít you take a calculating risk?Ē Yes he tries to say but, to hunt intelligent creatures for food.Ē
ďDo you have farm animals in your world: Cows, pigs, birds; animals that you keep as slaves, for no other purpose then to eat?
They never have any choice, they never have any hope. They may or may not be sentient, but does being unaware of fate it any less wrong. Isnít it better, to hunt intelligent prey, creatures that know the risk, and consciously decides to take it?Ē
Stun on word, the accuser have nothing to say and is swallowed.

What really separates man from animals but a mere quantitative difference in intelligence? If there is no qualitative difference then there is nothing that can morally distinguish a man from an animal. Thatís not to say that we should all be vegetarians, but just to never but use an animal, but always treat it as a goal in and of it self, just as we would with any man.

Respect, thatís the keyword. Do you respect your meat?
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:45 pm

rphb wrote:
Respect, that’s the keyword. Do you respect your meat?

I respect my meat.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:10 pm

A very good point! I have never heard it phrased that way, and I must applaud that. However, I must also offer a rebuttal.

Non-sentient creatures have no conscience, and no sense of sorrow. In this way, it's impossible to make a widow, or an orphan. Humans, however, have intense emotional bonds. It's quite refutable that our livestock even have emotions beyond the basic sensation of physical pain, and that's more of a sense than an emotion. But it also goes back to what I said in another thread: if you want to get Darwinist, you have to accept the other side of the coin. If you see humans as food, the species will see you as a threat. One day, a human, or a gorup of them, will gain the upper hand.

It's only a matter of time until we find a way to destroy those Guardians once and for all, and then we will assume our rightful place as the dominant species of all existence! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:15 am

The collective strength vs. the individual strength, good point, but you are forgetting the intent. Sure the guardians could be defeated if a large enough group of humans decided to ban together, no force in the universe no matter how strong is more powerful then the collective strength of man. Thatís what you are saying. Iím not saying I disagree, but Iím going to give you that thesis.

Even with that, Felarya will still remain untouched and wild simply because the intent is not there. The creatures of Felarya are only a treat to these that enter Felarya. The vast majority of humans live in other worlds. Why should I as a human on Calcador, a world that have no predators and have known peace for millennia care what happens in Felarya? Sure I may have a relative that went there to seek treasure and predictable got earthen.
If I am psychological unstable like Lesona, I may take it personally and seek vengeance, but my government sure as hell wont interfere and send troops just because a few adventures that had been warned lost there lives.
The government of Calcador is interested in the lives and welfare of the citizens of Calcador. You will never get them to join a war against the guardians as long as the guardians are no treat to Calcador.
Sure there may be a few worlds that are so warlike that they will fight anyone that donít submit, but unless we have a very good reason to ban together against the guardians of Felarya we wonít.

Have you ever wondered why the guardians donít interfere more often, and why they donít try to spread there influence beyond Felarya? Is it because they canít? No itís because they wonít. Whatís the point in antagonizing a peaceful and powerful world like Calcador? Even if they could overrun it, their allies would turn the entire universe against them.
You see war is not inevitable. You only go to war when you hope you have something to grain, or fear that you have something to lose.
As long as the guardians never interfere with anything outside Felarya you will never muster an army powerful enough to defeat them, simply because there is no reason good enough.



Ow an about the sentience nonsentience of farm animals. I know for a fact that some animals are sentient and care as much about family relations as we do. They have had many problems in Africa about gangs of raging teenage male elephants. What made these boys so angry was that they got traumatized after seeing there families shot by humans; some by poachers, others by the authorities because they deemed that there were too many elephant in an area. They never considered the psychological effect of the survivors when you decide to massacre some of there close relatives. These elephant gangs have become furious at man for what we have done to them and have often attacked small villages destroying them completely. The really tragically thing is that it is never the villages that kill there kinds, but almost always the white men.
An elephant are of course very intelligent animals, far more intelligent then cows, but how do you know that cows donít have emotions when we know for a fact that we, and some of the must intelligent animals do. As I said before, you need to point to a qualitative difference between man and animal. If sentience isnít a question about absolute a ďEnten ellerĒ (either or) as Kierkegaard would say, if itís just a gradual increase of intensity, then there can be no absolute moral difference between man and animals, but only a gradual one.


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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:31 am

you are right about that, Guardians would never get involved with another world besides truly extraordinary circumstances. I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:46 am

rphb wrote:
Ow an about the sentience nonsentience of farm animals. I know for a fact that some animals are sentient and care as much about family relations as we do. They have had many problems in Africa about gangs of raging teenage male elephants. What made these boys so angry was that they got traumatized after seeing there families shot by humans; some by poachers, others by the authorities because they deemed that there were too many elephant in an area. They never considered the psychological effect of the survivors when you decide to massacre some of there close relatives. These elephant gangs have become furious at man for what we have done to them and have often attacked small villages destroying them completely.
What s/he said. 100%.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:47 am

See even Karbo agrees. One thing guardians should care about though, is that there is never any large scale emigration from Felarya; if lots of predators started purring out into other worlds that could also start a chain reaction that could end with their own destruction.
Itís all about politics. Do the government of USA cares one bit what the government of North Korea does to the people of North Korea? No, but if they started to be a direct treat to America, and an attract seemed immanent then it would be a very bad day to be Kim Jong-il.
Itís just like Afghanistan. The people were brutally suppressed for years without anyone doing anything simply because they didnít care. But when they lanced an attack at 11/9 the response was instantaneous and unified.


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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:18 am

rphb wrote:
See even Karbo agrees. One thing guardians should care about though, is that there is never any large scale emigration from Felarya; if lots of predators started purring out into other worlds that could also start a chain reaction that could end with their own destruction.
Itís all about politics. Do the government of USA cares one bit what the government of North Korea does to the people of North Korea? No, but if they started to be a direct treat to America, and an attract seemed immanent then it would be a very bad day to be Kim Jong-il.
Itís just like Afghanistan. The people were brutally suppressed for years without anyone doing anything simply because they didnít care. But when they lanced an attack at 11/9 the response was instantaneous and unified.

A large number of predators leaving is unlikely. From what has been observed, most dimensional portals are relatively small, at least to a predator. Whther this is because most are generated by humans, or that the energy required to make them keeps their size small...I don't know. It seems like most of the naturally occuring ones are generally too small for predators. The only massive portals you see are made by angels or demons when they travel between the dimensions, or the dimensional gates at Negav and Ur-Sagol.

Really the only place a predator could likely leave Felarya is either the Miragia woods, due to its inherent instability (although, most predators avoid it for that reason)...or to get caught in a vanishing land as it re-aligns to its homeworld (most predators learn about the vanishing lands, and try not to hang around them long, it at all).

It does seem for the most part, that predators have no intrest in leaving. I would imagine that the idea of ending up in some other world, alone and cut off from their friends/family (possibly forever) is the reasoning behind that.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Notys Atlas?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:28 am

Exactly and thatís another argument for that Felarya is not going to be invaded. The predators, hell any sentient being would rarely like to be court of from there home. If we consider that the dimensional portals are wormholes, with the same instability issues, it would require a tremendous amount of energy to send even a small object trough. The energy required rises exponentially with size. So if it takes X J for a human to get trough, an a predator is n times more massive then a human, then the energy required to transport a predator is X^n and thatís quite a lot.
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