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 Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!

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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Mon May 31, 2010 6:16 am

There, now, I've gotta voice my opinion, at least for the sake of it.

I'm afraid, Eric-Sama, I don't agree fairies are the only beings with size-changing magic, nor do I think that should be the case. I believe that anyone who could make good use of size-changing magic in a story, whether it be for adventure or fetish purposes, should be allowed to try. It's not like Gerridi or Naxyla were fairies anyway! Nor amazons with fairy wing belts are fairies.


Same for you, Jew. I agree that the no raising the dead rule is okay, because it takes too damn much tension out of death, which is a pretty important point in any plot, and part of the nature of Felarya is that if someone gets eaten, that someone dies. But having an explicit rule against raising the dead is important, since many backgrounds are based on RPGs where people can raise the dead, so it's often considered possible unless otherwise noted.

However, having an explicit rule against becoming a predator with magic is not on the same level, since there aren't many backgrounds that involve sorceresses turning fifty foot tall to gobble people up (if only). And if there are, you can be damn sure they will want to keep that part in Felarya (unless it's a story about how they can't do it anymore). As long as it doesn't happen, I'm all for letting it happen. But simply forbidding it... doesn't sit right with me, I'm sure someone could make a pretty good character with that, and I wouldn't want to wave a "true spirit of Felarya" at him. I know it's hypocritical of me, since I'd be against a character whose concept was being a chestburster of sorts and it's exactly what I'd do, willing and knowing, regardless of whether they made a perfectly interesting character with a damn good reason for their behaviour and fitting perfectly into the setting. I don't think the food chain should be set on stone, only that everyone must participate, but that's just me, and if everyone feels that's the way to do it, I'll humbly bow and let it just become one of the things I won't like about Felarya and that you'll be able to cricitize about my fanfics.


Hell, if you ask me, we should have a rule against golems, those things are gonna toss the fun right out of the window and everyone's just fanboying over them! But I respect them, and while as soon as they get stablished as a good solution all I write will look stupid, because it'll be like all of my characters just pretended they didn't exist. I don't have anything against golems, but someone PLEASE help me find a reason why they don't comprise ALL of the outskirting workforce in Felarya when something has to absolutely, positively get done, and stop just saying how good an idea they are, if with the ambient magic and stuff they're so cool and cheap.

I know they're cool, but so are undead, and I really love my zombies and mummies and ghouls and stuff (I hated vampires even before Twilight, though, they're either no-brainers or godmodding schemers where you really can't see intelligence, just barely concealed omniscience, or both at once!), but I keep quiet about this (despite they're the only kind of undead in Felarya). I wouldn't even dare think of bringing externally created undead to Felarya (okay, I do, but I decided not to do it!), because I know Felarya is not about merrily walking away while your hordes of caramel-coated, cream-filled, jam-brained and cherry-eyed zombies put a smile in the naga's face and meat in her tummy with no loss of life. If it were, we wouldn't have a rule against zombies.



Besides, why does everyone keep mentioning they want to disavow size-changing nekos? What do we have against Kurona, Luniela, that black-haired chick with a blue tail whose name I can't remember, and that 90 foot other one who was in a comic squishing a harpy underfoot? Did someone ruin the concept forever? 'cause as far as I care they're all sexy as hell and that's what matters, at least in the short term. It's also a nice break from size-changing fairies, and a good reminder that nekos are effing predators.



Now, the belief that all applicable knowledge must stem from science is an article of faith. If you want to give this a codified set of self-consistent pseudo-scientific rules (and no matter how hard we try it will ALWAYS be pseudo-scientific because we aren't using the scientific method, we're making it up; failure to understand this will put us at the level of a group with a copyright on its own name you get lowered taxes from joining), please remember two things. First, we must be both willing and able to accomodate for the way anyone wants to do it, which is why I was against this at first, but we must also be humble about this and be sure we won't be telling people what they can or can't do just because we were the first to think about it. The last thing I'd want, and the last thing I'd ever hear from anyone before losing completely all respect for them is "magic doesn't work that way". And I've read them so many times... it's sad.


I'm all for setting some ground-up characterizations, it'll certainly make interactions between different wizards all the more interesting*, but please everyone remember that even science doesn't always make sense. And specially, remember not to wave whatever we get to at anyone to tell them they're doing it wrong. We're doing this for fun, not to rage at the people who find our thoughts here disagreeable and/or unnecessary. I don't want us to become a set of stuck-up douchebags who tell people what to imagine.


Just saying, all that I've read so far is making me wary that we're about to go down a road we better shouldn't. Even the common good wouldn't justify it.

*
Spoiler:
 






TL;DR and completely subjective thoughts aside, here are some models you can start taking apart.

In spoilers, you have parts concerning my characters. I thought they'd be funny, you know I'm here only to have fun. Nonetheless, they're particular instances and aren't required reading. You know I wouldn't hold back any jokes with you guys, I'm here for only one reason, to have fun and make friends. And I'm all out of friends.

If you have more models or more characters' views, go ahead and post them! Every little thing helps, at least it helps us have fun, which is about the only thing we'll accomplish here.


My personal pick of an explanation is meaning magic. Meaning magic doesn't operate through any physical/chemical/etc means, as it's the reshaping of the tapestry of the universe through no means (if it were happening through some means, it wouldn't be magic). Meaning magic is sort of like the Matrix; just replace "your mind" with "your very being, the universe, and everything in it". Everything within creation is subject both to everything else, and to having its meaning altered through no real means. Meaning magic is like denying reality the ability to proceed rationally, forcing the meaning of everything within the tapestry to be reformed, whether through mind, feeling, or simple power.

The reason why magic exists, according to the meaning magic theory, is that there is something higher at work than mere matter or energy within creation. For a reason or another, crystal, feeling, mind and cosmos can all reach beyond the tapestry, and somehow change it. This reason is unknown; those who adhere to this often theory believe that this reason is the higher purpose, the meaning of life, and the ultimate answer to everything, that sentience was a necessary step towards the completion of the multiverse, and that knowing the meaning of life brings power beyond divine. Needless to say, meaning magic adepts are usually ambitious and arrogant individuals.

A consequence of meaning magic is that it depends on meaning. Only by knowing what something means, either intellectually (I mean for her neurons to return to their state a minute ago, while all cells that have shut down because of lack of oxygen should promptly restore all oxidated proteins etc etc etc) or as a gut feeling (I... I don't want it to end like this! She still has so much to live for!) can someone ever accomplish it, either by simply willing it, or by finding the right thing to will. Also, meaning magic explains the things that magic can't do simply by saying that some meanings do not truly exist in the instances that magic fails to encompass them. For example, "revival" simply is not encompassed by Felarya's "lexicon", Felarya just doesn't contain the words, even if the mind can encompass the idea, even if the heart can long for it, the tapestry may not hold it, and thus, heart and mind both prove to contain things the world does not.

Epitome of meaning magic is wish-granting magic. How else are we to explain that wishes can come true, if not because their meaning carries some sort of meaningfulness to the world on its own? Are we to believe there's fried chicken energy? How about marriage particles? No, meanings carry themselves and there's no more to it. Let them cross from the mind to the greater world and manifest there, and that's all it takes. There's an infinite amount of energy within each soul, just in the form of desire, thought, feeling and imagination, and a great enough heart can spawn an infinite number of multiverses. Because the universe is no greater than any of its components. Same with mind-affecting magic: if there's no true meaning to thoughts, if they are simply electrochemical signals running through dendrites, then how comes it we can know what they mean to anyone else? Something is universal about the meaning of a thought or a memory. Everything else is but a contingent manifestation of this greater truth.

A common criticism to this theory is that it explains absolutely nothing. It just says that magic does what it does by being magic. Understandably, this theory is impopular amongst predators, to whom a mind or a heart cannot possibly be as great as the whole universe around it; sentience couldn't possibly be that important. Also, despite it has many adherents amongst mind-affecting mages, other mages point that they're limited to minds, while if meaning truly carries that much power, someone who can control minds should in theory hold all the power in the world.


Known Adherents to this Model: Locust

Spoiler:
 



A far more popular vision is the dynamic vision. According to this vision of the cosmos, magic is an energy, as we all know, since it is a measure of the power to exert changes in the world. Magic has its own mechanisms, which may be better or worse defined.

According to this, in order to employ magic, the magician must first tap into his own reserves, and then create an imbalance in the nature of the world. As this imbalance corrects itself, the desired effect (usually) takes place (if the energy was worked right with). The dynamic vision does however fail to explain why magic exists; its adherents usually consider it some sort of primal result of the creation of the world, in par with cosmic radiation.

A foreseen consequence by the dynamic vision is that, magic being energy, it has to be stored and gathered in finite amounts, like any other commodity. This consequence has been confirmed many times before, thus giving the dynamic vision great popularity today, far more than the outdated meaning vision. Another consequence of the dynamic vision is that the mage must actually know what he's doing, as he just has energies to work with. Another consequence according to what the dynamic vision entails is that, since the energy is tapped in different ways different wizards can experience "power peaks" in completely different situations, depending on how do they use magic: a mage who runs primarily on guts can make some great things in a moment of inspiration, one who uses their minds alone will probably be more powerful during some sort of intellectual epiphany, and someone whose power is not a characteristic of their minds or hearts is probably connected somehow to a crystal of sorts. Such an individual might probably experience their power waxing during cosmic events or at particular locations.

Epitome of the dynamic vision is metamagic and antimagic: if magic weren't truly some sort of energy, then how comes it that it can be dispelled, countered or augmented so generically? Even if there's an antidote for all poisons, if bezoars' properties are to be believed, there's nothing that added to absolutely any poison worsens it, unless it would worsen things on its own.

The dynamic vision has the most criticisms despite being one of the best theories (the way science works, if it has more criticisms it's a better theory, actually, because criticism means you're getting somewhere) include that it has several faults, amongst which, that it completely fails to encompass the effects better defined by meaning magic, such as illusions or transformations; unless meanings have some sort of power by themselves, no amount of free energy is going to transform someone into a bear. The effects involved in a transformation or an illusion are far, far too complex to be mere applications of free energy. Another criticism is that if a wizard is capable of willing something into existence (say, a rabbit, or flowers), then if we consider the energy involved in the creation of an object the mass of a rabbit or a flower, any apprentice should be able to conjure the same energy simply as energy and blow up both himself and several city blocks. If we consider the energy involved in conjuring a rabbit or flower, creating the mass, making it adopt the atomic proportions needed, then form the mollecules required, and then place all of them in their exact places, the same apprentice should also be able to blow up like a supernova if he's capable of making flowers pop into existence ex nihilo. At the same time, the dynamic vision can't explain mind-affecting effects. If magic is just energy, how comes the same energy can mean the same thing to any brain, no matter how are they wired?


Known Adherents to this Vision: Trish, Norman, Marcel

Spoiler:
 



Another theory is the sentient energy theory. This theory is considered usually an even worse handwave than meaning magic; rather than leaving something to the wizard, it shifts the weight entirely to the magic itself. As like in the others, magic has its own mechanisms, but is an entity rather than an energy.

According to this theory, a wizard or whatever isn't truly using anything. Something else does it for them, and at best they're demanding its interaction. Again, this theory doesn't say anything on why magic exists or where it came from. All it says is that magic is sentient. The nature of how they draw on magic is of no consequence. Those who draw on a being, so-called thaumaturgists, are merely adding another in-betweener.

Consequences predicted by the model are, aside from the possibility of an omnipotent being composed of all the magic in the world, or a finite number of not omnipotent beings, frankly zero. For that reason, this model has rarely been looked into; to most wizards who give a shit about how magic works, this feels like trying to use the Bible to answer scientific questions. It has few adherents, but only the vocal adherents remain, and most of them are assholes.

Epitome of the sentient energy theory is wild magic. If magic is truly about meaning as they say, where does this meaninglessness come from? And if magic is an energy, why do such complex, discrete manifestations take place? The random order to wild magic is, according to this model, the will of magic itself, while its discrete manifestations take place because magic knows the physical world somehow, and thus doesn't do anything too inchoate. That's why you don't ever see wild magic generating half a goat. But if you did... it wouldn't invalidate the theory, they'd just say magic's a sick one.

Nobody criticizes the sentient energy theory, because it's stupid.



Known Adherents to this Theory: Sokkiz

Spoiler:
 




I'm THAT fucking hardcore, you cocksuckers! Feeling man enough to reply, punk? Are you a tough guy, or just a pussy with a keyboard?

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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Mon May 31, 2010 7:42 am

Stabs wrote:
There, now, I've gotta voice my opinion, at least for the sake of it.

I'm afraid, Eric-Sama, I don't agree fairies are the only beings with size-changing magic, nor do I think that should be the case. I believe that anyone who could make good use of size-changing magic in a story, whether it be for adventure or fetish purposes, should be allowed to try. It's not like Gerridi or Naxyla were fairies anyway! Nor amazons with fairy wing belts are fairies.
I agree with Eric on this one, fairies should be the only living things with size changing magic. I say living because it is still possible for to size change by those super rare ancient magical artefacts. Size changing is supposed to be one of the things that make fairies unique.
It disrupts the balance too much, the magiocrats don’t need the isolon eye, they can just make some loyal warriors giant and send them out to kill predators, etc.
Stabs wrote:
Hell, if you ask me, we should have a rule against golems, those things are gonna toss the fun right out of the window and everyone's just fanboying over them! But I respect them, and while as soon as they get stablished as a good solution all I write will look stupid, because it'll be like all of my characters just pretended they didn't exist. I don't have anything against golems, but someone PLEASE help me find a reason why they don't comprise ALL of the outskirting workforce in Felarya when something has to absolutely, positively get done, and stop just saying how good an idea they are, if with the ambient magic and stuff they're so cool and cheap.
Agreed. They are too easy to make in their current form


Stabs wrote:
Besides, why does everyone keep mentioning they want to disavow size-changing nekos? What do we have against Kurona, Luniela, that black-haired chick with a blue tail whose name I can't remember, and that 90 foot other one who was in a comic squishing a harpy underfoot? Did someone ruin the concept forever? 'cause as far as I care they're all sexy as hell and that's what matters, at least in the short term. It's also a nice break from size-changing fairies, and a good reminder that nekos are effing predators.
Stabs, I am disappoint. Sexy is never all that matters, no matter in what term.
High chance is that they’ll never take their character past the sole sex and/or vore stage.


Stabs wrote:
Now, the belief that all applicable knowledge must stem from science is an article of faith. If you want to give this a codified set of self-consistent pseudo-scientific rules (and no matter how hard we try it will ALWAYS be pseudo-scientific because we aren't using the scientific method, we're making it up; failure to understand this will put us at the level of a group with a copyright on its own name you get lowered taxes from joining), please remember two things. First, we must be both willing and able to accomodate for the way anyone wants to do it, which is why I was against this at first, but we must also be humble about this and be sure we won't be telling people what they can or can't do just because we were the first to think about it. The last thing I'd want, and the last thing I'd ever hear from anyone before losing completely all respect for them is "magic doesn't work that way". And I've read them so many times... it's sad.
Logic shouldn’t get in the way of a really good story, but a good story contains it. There must be a balance.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Mon May 31, 2010 7:50 am

Yeah, my only real concern there is the exclusivity of size magic. It needs to remain an exclusive trait of fairies. There's a couple reasons for this.

1: Its kind of the fairies' thing. Without size-shifting they just become a race of winged humans, with no real defining traits. Nagas have extreme stealth and snake-like relfexes, Mermaids can breathe underwater, Harpies can fly the fastest and highest, Dridders can melt the insides of their prey and suck it out, etc, etc. If other races can size-shift, what makes the fairies more than just a race of winged elves?

2: Size magic is highly abusable. It NEEDS to be limited to as small a population as possible. You think the golems take any danger out of it....what do you think size magic would do in large numbers?

3: It isnt necissary for other races to have it. All the other races have their own strengths and weaknesses. They don't NEED size magic. Making that trait common just ruins the uniqueness of the others.

4: It completely screws over all humans' already slim chances of survival. The main way to survive a predator, is to evade them, to try and slip away and hide someplace they cannot see, or get into. If more predators can size-shift, it makes that tactic no longer valid. Among other things.

As for the nekos, I think they are fine the way they are. They ARE predators, they eat tinies. Not all preds need to be giant, and I think there are more human-sized hybrids than we realize (we know about human-sized nagas and mermaids). The big ones just giet all the press. If you want to write about giant nekos eating people because they're "sexy as hell"...write from the point of view of a Neera, or a human who got shrunk by a fairy, or something.

As for magic itself, I don't think it needs such a huge, specific explanation. The way I see it, magic (at least in Felarya) is an energy that flows through eveything. Mages are able to reach out (with their own magical energy) and tap into that energy, to manipulate it and create an effect on what the magic flows through.

Now, when magic flows through differnt things, it becomes altered a little by the composition of what its flowing through...that is why it each magical discipline is so different. Manipulating the magical energy of a rock requires a completely different set of methods from manipulating the energy of, say, water.

Just my own two-cents on the magical debate, since we already know that magic radiates and flows through things (that is how the healing factor was explained).
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Mon May 31, 2010 8:34 am

Anime-Junkie wrote:
I agree with Eric on this one, fairies should be the only living things with size changing magic. I say living because it is still possible for to size change by those super rare ancient magical artefacts. Size changing is supposed to be one of the things that make fairies unique.
It disrupts the balance too much, the magiocrats don’t need the isolon eye, they can just make some loyal warriors giant and send them out to kill predators, etc.
Last time I saw a warrior making herself giant she got eaten within five minutes. And it was hot.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Agreed. They are too easy to make in their current form.
But you're not worrying about the magiocrats making some loyal golems and send them out to kill predators etc. So why worry about the size-changing magic either? We're not worrying about them poisoning the forest with a foreign foliage full of accumulative poison, that will slay any predator in large enough doses (and they CAN do that! I could do that myself with no magic!).

What I'm trying to say is that even if the magiocrats had size-changing magic, it wouldn't solve anything. Haven't you ever watched Tom and Jerry?

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Stabs, I am disappoint. Sexy is never all that matters, no matter in what term.
High chance is that they’ll never take their character past the sole sex and/or vore stage.
Then what are you worrying about? If they never get past that part, we'll never see them again.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Logic shouldn’t get in the way of a really good story, but a good story contains it. There must be a balance.
If you must.


rcs619 wrote:
1: Its kind of the fairies' thing. Without size-shifting they just become a race of winged humans, with no real defining traits. Nagas have extreme stealth and snake-like relfexes, Mermaids can breathe underwater, Harpies can fly the fastest and highest, Dridders can melt the insides of their prey and suck it out, etc, etc. If other races can size-shift, what makes the fairies more than just a race of winged elves?
The fact that they're nutcases crawling out of the woodwork.

rcs619 wrote:
2: Size magic is highly abusable. It NEEDS to be limited to as small a population as possible. You think the golems take any danger out of it....what do you think size magic would do in large numbers?
Feed kensha beasts, hydra trees, flying squids, leviathan mermaids...

rcs619 wrote:
3: It isnt necissary for other races to have it. All the other races have their own strengths and weaknesses. They don't NEED size magic. Making that trait common just ruins the uniqueness of the others.
I'm not saying it should be common, just possible.

rcs619 wrote:
4: It completely screws over all humans' already slim chances of survival. The main way to survive a predator, is to evade them, to try and slip away and hide someplace they cannot see, or get into. If more predators can size-shift, it makes that tactic no longer valid. Among other things.
I'm not saying it should be available to EVERYONE. I think it should be rare, too, and that the only reliable way to get it was to be a fairy. I'm saying it shouldn't be only available to fairies, just not available in the general market.

rcs619 wrote:
As for the nekos, I think they are fine the way they are. They ARE predators, they eat tinies. Not all preds need to be giant, and I think there are more human-sized hybrids than we realize (we know about human-sized nagas and mermaids). The big ones just giet all the press. If you want to write about giant nekos eating people because they're "sexy as hell"...write from the point of view of a Neera, or a human who got shrunk by a fairy, or something.
They already set that fairies' shrinking magic only lasts long enough for you to worry about anything else if they get you in their stomach. Ironic, isn't it.
But nah, what I meant to write about was a size-changing, half-elemental mermaid, actually... turning into a normal-sized woman when her tail dries. Dude, that sounded an awful lot funnier in my head... if it helps, I meant for her to die pretty quickly.

rcs619 wrote:
As for magic itself, I don't think it needs such a huge, specific explanation. The way I see it, magic (at least in Felarya) is an energy that flows through eveything. Mages are able to reach out (with their own magical energy) and tap into that energy, to manipulate it and create an effect on what the magic flows through.
But it's fun to make a huge explanation! We never do anything together anymore!

rcs619 wrote:
Just my own two-cents on the magical debate, since we already know that magic radiates and flows through things (that is how the healing factor was explained).
It was? Damn.

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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Mon May 31, 2010 9:43 am

Yeah, the general consensus is that the healing factor is a form of magical energy that originates from Felarya itself. It flows up and through rock, plants, people, water and just about everything. It super-enhances the immune system, allowing the body to fend off nearly all disease before it can mulitply enough to cause sickness. It enhances the body's natural healing processes as well, making them much quicker and more efficient (it isnt instant though, of course. It just makes you heal up quicker than normal. Maybe taking a couple weeks instead of a couple months for a broken bone to heal, for example). It also stops the aging process at a person's prime (between 25-28 for humans), since any further aging would begin to create degenerative effects.

Now, it doesn't cover everything. Curses, poisons and parasites can still be very dangerous.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Mon May 31, 2010 3:05 pm

Stabs wrote:
Anime-Junkie wrote:
I agree with Eric on this one, fairies should be the only living things with size changing magic. I say living because it is still possible for to size change by those super rare ancient magical artefacts. Size changing is supposed to be one of the things that make fairies unique.
It disrupts the balance too much, the magiocrats don’t need the isolon eye, they can just make some loyal warriors giant and send them out to kill predators, etc.
Last time I saw a warrior making herself giant she got eaten within five minutes. And it was hot.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Agreed. They are too easy to make in their current form.
But you're not worrying about the magiocrats making some loyal golems and send them out to kill predators etc. So why worry about the size-changing magic either? We're not worrying about them poisoning the forest with a foreign foliage full of accumulative poison, that will slay any predator in large enough doses (and they CAN do that! I could do that myself with no magic!).
Actually, for the golems thing I am. Also what's that about a foreign foliage full of accumulative poison?

Stabs wrote:
What I'm trying to say is that even if the magiocrats had size-changing magic, it wouldn't solve anything. Haven't you ever watched Tom and Jerry?
Then why are you saying everyone should be able to do it? They don't need it. Also no, I haven't.

Stabs wrote:
Anime-Junkie wrote:
Stabs, I am disappoint. Sexy is never all that matters, no matter in what term.
High chance is that they’ll never take their character past the sole sex and/or vore stage.
Then what are you worrying about? If they never get past that part, we'll never see them again.
For the wrong reasons.


Stabs wrote:
rcs619 wrote:
1: Its kind of the fairies' thing. Without size-shifting they just become a race of winged humans, with no real defining traits. Nagas have extreme stealth and snake-like relfexes, Mermaids can breathe underwater, Harpies can fly the fastest and highest, Dridders can melt the insides of their prey and suck it out, etc, etc. If other races can size-shift, what makes the fairies more than just a race of winged elves?
The fact that they're nutcases crawling out of the woodwork.
That doesn't set them apart. Look at campers, adventures and explorers.

Stabs wrote:
rcs619 wrote:
2: Size magic is highly abusable. It NEEDS to be limited to as small a population as possible. You think the golems take any danger out of it....what do you think size magic would do in large numbers?
Feed kensha beasts, hydra trees, flying squids, leviathan mermaids...

rcs619 wrote:
3: It isnt necissary for other races to have it. All the other races have their own strengths and weaknesses. They don't NEED size magic. Making that trait common just ruins the uniqueness of the others.
I'm not saying it should be common, just possible.
Why? I really haven't seen a reason that outweighs the negative effects of it.
Stabs wrote:
rcs619 wrote:
4: It completely screws over all humans' already slim chances of survival. The main way to survive a predator, is to evade them, to try and slip away and hide someplace they cannot see, or get into. If more predators can size-shift, it makes that tactic no longer valid. Among other things.
I'm not saying it should be available to EVERYONE. I think it should be rare, too, and that the only reliable way to get it was to be a fairy. I'm saying it shouldn't be only available to fairies, just not available in the general market.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but as I have said many times before, I'm sure it's possible to size change with rare ancient magical artefacts. Therefore, if a writer really wants or needs a character to change size in a story, it's possible.
rcs619 wrote:
As for the nekos, I think they are fine the way they are. They ARE predators, they eat tinies. Not all preds need to be giant, and I think there are more human-sized hybrids than we realize (we know about human-sized nagas and mermaids). The big ones just giet all the press. If you want to write about giant nekos eating people because they're "sexy as hell"...write from the point of view of a Neera, or a human who got shrunk by a fairy, or something.
I agree with Cliff here.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Mon May 31, 2010 3:58 pm

Stabs wrote:
But you're not worrying about the magiocrats making some loyal golems and send them out to kill predators etc. So why worry about the size-changing magic either? We're not worrying about them poisoning the forest with a foreign foliage full of accumulative poison, that will slay any predator in large enough doses (and they CAN do that! I could do that myself with no magic!).

What I'm trying to say is that even if the magiocrats had size-changing magic, it wouldn't solve anything. Haven't you ever watched Tom and Jerry?
Okay, you got a giggle out of me. That was an interesting take on the matter and I tend to agree. Any magic, regardless of the kind, can be abused in a story - size-changing magic is no exception.

I don't think fairies should be the only creatures in all of Felarya who have and/or can use this type of magic. It is not their only trait - they are defined by a multitude of abilities and by their mischievous behavior (based on their views of what constitutes good/evil).

With that said, I also don't think it should be common in other species. Should all nagas have it? Nope. Most human mages? Nope. But there's a vast difference between saying it shouldn't be common and saying it cannot occur at all.

There are stories with fairies (or at least, half-fairies) that can't change size, so why not a few with other characters who "intrude" on fairy abilities? If someone wants to write a story about a size-changing neko, by all means, have at it.

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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Mon May 31, 2010 4:14 pm

timing2 wrote:
There are stories with fairies (or at least, half-fairies) that can't change size, so why not a few with other characters who "intrude" on fairy abilities? If someone wants to write a story about a size-changing neko, by all means, have at it.
to quote the wiki "fairies can change their size at will, from 3 inches to 100 feet, although this range varies a bit from one fairy to another, and some can't change size at all" fairies that can't change size is canon.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Mon May 31, 2010 6:42 pm

I'm siding with the 'size changing is only for fairies' group. All the other species have interesting, unique adaptions to survive, and saying that fairies aren't being snubbed by taking away the size changing magic sounds weird to me. I mean, nearly all predators people write about have the 'no concept of good and evil' thing because they're based on Crisis who was raised by fairies. If we took away the driders ability to liquefy guts, their culture being conserved would come as a very small consolation.

Oh, and while I'm not a fan of nekos at all, I do think it would be possible for there to be naturally occuring ones that don't have size-changing magic. I mean, we have giant humans, giant nagas, and loads of other species that have a more common smaller version, so I don't know why there has to be a rule against them. Unless every giant neko story written so far is pure shit, that's a decent reason.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Mon May 31, 2010 9:22 pm

Jew wrote:
I'm siding with the 'size changing is only for fairies' group. All the other species have interesting, unique adaptions to survive, and saying that fairies aren't being snubbed by taking away the size changing magic sounds weird to me. I mean, nearly all predators people write about have the 'no concept of good and evil' thing because they're based on Crisis who was raised by fairies. If we took away the driders ability to liquefy guts, their culture being conserved would come as a very small consolation.

Oh, and while I'm not a fan of nekos at all, I do think it would be possible for there to be naturally occuring ones that don't have size-changing magic. I mean, we have giant humans, giant nagas, and loads of other species that have a more common smaller version, so I don't know why there has to be a rule against them. Unless every giant neko story written so far is pure shit, that's a decent reason.
I'm pretty sure giant nekos are possible, we have had some decent stories. Although the one I recall had the giant neko in question was originally human size, but was made giant by a magical artefact or something (That happened before the story took place but was mentioned therein).
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:18 am

me I'm personnaly not really for rules engraved in irons. I believe there should be always exceptions to everything.
I do agree that size-changing magic is a trait specific to fairies and that very few creatures outside of them have it, but I don't think it should be something absolutely *forbidden* either ^^;
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:56 pm

Maybe you remember "Kuroneko", by Gwadahunter2222? Kurona has some limited size-changing magic, she can shrink giant nagas to human size, and she's at predator size, though she can't go back to her own now. And it was sexy as hell.

Maybe you misunderstand, as well. I'm not saying it should be common, only possible, "get eaten by a naga and emerge as another" possible, or "meet a naga, and befriend it instead of getting eaten" possible, and most people should go their entire lives without meeting anyone who can do it. I wouldn't be enough of a... I don't know the word, I would never say "if you want that, it has to come in an artifact. Rewrite this. Now".

Size-changing magic has been around before Felarya, and it will stay long after it's gone. So saying only fairies can do it... if you had this sorceress who could do it long before her maker heard of Felarya, and he moves her in, would you tell the maker "find a new concept. Change her character. You can't do that here. Period."? I'm not saying we make more species that size-change. I'm just saying a finite number of characters won't make fairies less special. Some of us like size-changing but don't care one way or another for pointy ears and feel a really, really profound dislike for flying characters with weird-wired brains, or fey in general. Anything wrong with that?

Timing, I'm with you. Thanks for being so clear.

There's been no flood of size-changing characters when we didn't have that rule, Junkie, only half a dozen or so, including Rayu and Ziya, who didn't get that good of a reception, but let's be honest, that's not because they size-changed. Adding that rule will only get it ignored, at best, and at worst, straight-out gone against, out of bloody-mindedness. You said I had too much faith in humanity- I say you have even more faith than me. If you think a sign is going to stop anyone from doing it if they want to, think again.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Actually, for the golems thing I am. Also what's that about a foreign foliage full of accumulative poison?
You are not, I don't see you doing anything about it like you are about this.
That about the foliage is an abuse of nature magic that can directly kill mostly anything. If you create a poisonous foliage with some advantage over the local phlora, the foliage can poison everything in the wild. I can't remember where did I read about that technique being used to slay everything in a very hostile forest. Ah, right, Lords of Madness for 3.5. That's what any aberration with a brain would do in any jungle deathworld. Or what I'd do.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
For the wrong reasons.
That's, now that's being picky.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
That doesn't set them apart. Look at campers, adventures and explorers.
Camper vore...? I had never thought of that! But what would the camper eat? I know! Campers! But they're the same size... now if you want that to happen, campers are going to need size-changing magic... your argument is invalidating itself. Or wait, same-size camper vore! But that would take the shtick out of nagas, chlaenas and others... your argument is still invalidating itself.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Why? I really haven't seen a reason that outweighs the negative effects of it.
Junkie, make a clear reply to this. If someone wants to use size-changing magic with a character, they should be allowed to try, rather than told it's fairy-only. If they make a good enough story, then we should enjoy it, and stop fretting about how only fairies have size-changing magic.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but as I have said many times before, I'm sure it's possible to size change with rare ancient magical artefacts. Therefore, if a writer really wants or needs a character to change size in a story, it's possible.
No, I don't agree it should be limited to artifacts alone, it's an even worse compromise than "fairy only &%@#!!". Artifacts are transferrable, physical and independantly existing, and if we don't want it transferrable, physical and independantly existing, there's no need to (or possibility of) forcing us to do it. If someone wants it to be a spell or a superpower, there's nothing you or I can do except counsel moderation. Like Kurona, she didn't get an orb, she got her powers from the orb.

That said, I think we should reach a compromise, we've been doing nothing but restating our points all over again during this whole conversation. How about... "As a rule of thumb, only fairies have size-changing magic."

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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:30 pm

Karbo wrote:
me I'm personnaly not really for rules engraved in irons. I believe there should be always exceptions to everything.
I do agree that size-changing magic is a trait specific to fairies and that very few creatures outside of them have it, but I don't think it should be something absolutely *forbidden* either ^^;
I agree here. Fairies are the MAIN size-changers, but there are a FEW exceptions. Plenty of emphasis on "few". It is a complicated and difficult art, and most mages would prefer to rely on other schools of magic.

As for the pseudo-science thing, I'm not asking that we create a system that ruins existing stories and completely-totally engraves everything in stone. I mean, even in the real world, there are phenomena that baffle scientists. This isn't to say they're not scientific: it's just that no one knows everything. So I'm not saying we need to totally flesh out magic, I just support the idea that magic is a natural and supposedly-scientific phenomenon. Of course it's pseudo-science, that's obvious as hell.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:11 pm

Stabs wrote:
Maybe you remember "Kuroneko", by Gwadahunter2222? Kurona has some limited size-changing magic, she can shrink giant nagas to human size, and she's at predator size, though she can't go back to her own now. And it was sexy as hell.
You read my stories Shocked

I think he knows better this story because he proof-read it many times. And there was discussion about the size change ability of the characters in overall.
In my personal opinion the size-changing abilities is not an exclusivity to fairies because many canon character can change their size, looks Terror, Kalisti, or Alice in certain way we can say there are demons and claim Demons and angels are exceptions.

The main issue in size-changing abilities it's justify by saying it works likes fairy size-changing abilities. It's a good example to illustrated it except 1) Fairy alter their size in a different way than they alter the size of the other. 2) Fairies have difficulty to alter the size of many thing bigger. Many people can argue by saying I have a fairy who can because due to a different shape of their wing or are very powerful. I didn't aim anyone in particular. At first sight it looks cool but when you start to think it's silly. Because it's like saying you change the motor of your car and now you can drive now at the speed of light (it's an over-exaggerate example.)

Of course in Rin's adventure, Kiki was able to shrink Rin. But honestly, Rin's growth has been altered by a strange magical crystal, Kiki helped Terra to stabilize the process, and the same Kiki has been altered by a strange crystal which alter her normal abilities.

Indeed Kurona's ability didn't work in the same way than fairies, in the sequel "L'héritièré" sorry but DA forced me to change the characters, Subeta explain she tries to change her back to her normal size but she couldn't. I mean by that she tries all the different possibilities she had involving her natural abilities and many artefacts. There is an explanation about it.

To conclude, an opposition to a character with size-changing abilities except if the justification is cheap or lame and becomes out of proportions.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:55 pm

A-fucking-greed.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:51 pm

Stabs wrote:
Maybe you remember "Kuroneko", by Gwadahunter2222? Kurona has some limited size-changing magic, she can shrink giant nagas to human size, and she's at predator size, though she can't go back to her own now. And it was sexy as hell.

Maybe you misunderstand, as well. I'm not saying it should be common, only possible, "get eaten by a naga and emerge as another" possible, or "meet a naga, and befriend it instead of getting eaten" possible, and most people should go their entire lives without meeting anyone who can do it. I wouldn't be enough of a... I don't know the word, I would never say "if you want that, it has to come in an artifact. Rewrite this. Now".

Size-changing magic has been around before Felarya, and it will stay long after it's gone. So saying only fairies can do it... if you had this sorceress who could do it long before her maker heard of Felarya, and he moves her in, would you tell the maker "find a new concept. Change her character. You can't do that here. Period."? I'm not saying we make more species that size-change. I'm just saying a finite number of characters won't make fairies less special. Some of us like size-changing but don't care one way or another for pointy ears and feel a really, really profound dislike for flying characters with weird-wired brains, or fey in general. Anything wrong with that?
You are correct.
Stabs wrote:
Timing, I'm with you. Thanks for being so clear.

There's been no flood of size-changing characters when we didn't have that rule, Junkie, only half a dozen or so, including Rayu and Ziya, who didn't get that good of a reception, but let's be honest, that's not because they size-changed. Adding that rule will only get it ignored, at best, and at worst, straight-out gone against, out of bloody-mindedness. You said I had too much faith in humanity- I say you have even more faith than me. If you think a sign is going to stop anyone from doing it if they want to, think again.
Not the sign, the people who put it there, but that's something that I answer below.
Stabs wrote:
Anime-Junkie wrote:
For the wrong reasons.
That's, now that's being picky.
No, it's being fair. I don't think someone should be forced to leave because they had half a forum come down on their head, it's a terrible thing to happen.
Stabs wrote:
Anime-Junkie wrote:
That doesn't set them apart. Look at campers, adventures and explorers.
Camper vore...? I had never thought of that! But what would the camper eat? I know! Campers! But they're the same size... now if you want that to happen, campers are going to need size-changing magic... your argument is invalidating itself. Or wait, same-size camper vore! But that would take the shtick out of nagas, chlaenas and others... your argument is still invalidating itself.
I was referring to nutter crawling out of the woodwork. You find a lot of them wandering around without much clue how dangerous things are. That's crazy in my opinion.

Stabs wrote:
Anime-Junkie wrote:
Why? I really haven't seen a reason that outweighs the negative effects of it.
Junkie, make a clear reply to this. If someone wants to use size-changing magic with a character, they should be allowed to try, rather than told it's fairy-only. If they make a good enough story, then we should enjoy it, and stop fretting about how only fairies have size-changing magic.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but as I have said many times before, I'm sure it's possible to size change with rare ancient magical artefacts. Therefore, if a writer really wants or needs a character to change size in a story, it's possible.
No, I don't agree it should be limited to artifacts alone, it's an even worse compromise than "fairy only &%@#!!". Artifacts are transferrable, physical and independantly existing, and if we don't want it transferrable, physical and independantly existing, there's no need to (or possibility of) forcing us to do it. If someone wants it to be a spell or a superpower, there's nothing you or I can do except counsel moderation. Like Kurona, she didn't get an orb, she got her powers from the orb.

That said, I think we should reach a compromise, we've been doing nothing but restating our points all over again during this whole conversation. How about... "As a rule of thumb, only fairies have size-changing magic."


Congrats, you've managed to convince me. I don't want to stand in the way of a good story.
What I didn't want to see was it being abused, that's what I was afraid of. I guess with some people posting very overpowered characters lately that it would be used as another thing to make them overpowered. You're right, this debate has reached no point, going around in circles just makes people frustrated and that is something we want to avoid. I agree, your "rule of thumb" makes sense, it's possible for others to have it, but rare.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:18 am

Well, we also have to take into account that stories are often for FUN, and have no intention of being canon. While some serious writers do aspire to be made canon, and contribute to the universe, others don't really care, and there's nothing we can do to stop them. Those that do have the slightest chance of being semi-canon should already know to be smart and reasonable with size-changing, magic, or anything else we've been debating.

So really, all we're doing now is beating a dead horse. We mostly agree with each other, but we continue to debate our points for some reason.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:31 pm

I'm glad we've all agreed. I promise not to make anything that size-changes that isn't a fairy, at least, nothing that size-changes at will.

Now, it's time to keep making some magic, or at least talk about making some magic... but remember, guys, we're not trying to make rules. We're trying to put our heads together and have fun or find out something interesting.

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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:15 pm

I don't see what the big deal with size changing magic is. While I don't think it should be limited to fairies, they should be the only ones able to do it natural, the only ones who have the innate ability to perform it.

For everyone else, the power of changing size should be either an extremely complicated spell that only the most powerful, learned and dedicated mages can achieve, or else a feat of science only a truly inspired, and indeed likely as not mad scientist could ever hope to accomplish.

For example Mezzus, being a powerful mage who has spent his life studying fairies, would have learned a spell that can't alter someone's or his own size, (Which would explain why he can travel through the fairy kingdom in relative safely, as he can simply undo any size altering that is done to him. Or swell up to gigantic size if he so wishes.)

That being said, on the other side of things, a mage like Vivian, even a skilled as she is, is unlikely to know such as spell, as she likely lacks the dedication to learn it, (as well as having no reason to.)

Other predators are definitely less likely to learn size changing magic than human sized races would, as the lack the institutions to teach them the skills they need to master such complicated magic, so fairies would still be unique among predators in this regard.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:25 pm

I think it should only be possible for fairies to change size with the exception of a few ultra-rare magic items or artifacts.

I once had an idea for a story where a mage called a "pixelmancer", or video game mage, has a spell called "summon power-up", which summons a random video game power-up item. He gets lucky and gets a mega mushroom from the New Super Mario Bros. game, allowing him to grow to 60 feet tall, albeit for a very short time.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:42 pm

JohnDoe wrote:
I don't see what the big deal with size changing magic is. While I don't think it should be limited to fairies, they should be the only ones able to do it natural, the only ones who have the innate ability to perform it.

For everyone else, the power of changing size should be either an extremely complicated spell that only the most powerful, learned and dedicated mages can achieve, or else a feat of science only a truly inspired, and indeed likely as not mad scientist could ever hope to accomplish.

For example Mezzus, being a powerful mage who has spent his life studying fairies, would have learned a spell that can't alter someone's or his own size, (Which would explain why he can travel through the fairy kingdom in relative safely, as he can simply undo any size altering that is done to him. Or swell up to gigantic size if he so wishes.)

That being said, on the other side of things, a mage like Vivian, even a skilled as she is, is unlikely to know such as spell, as she likely lacks the dedication to learn it, (as well as having no reason to.)

Other predators are definitely less likely to learn size changing magic than human sized races would, as the lack the institutions to teach them the skills they need to master such complicated magic, so fairies would still be unique among predators in this regard.
JohnDoe's proposal is an excellent one.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:15 am

Anime-Junkie wrote:
JohnDoe's proposal is an excellent one.
No, it's not. The characters which burst this theory is Nina, Jade'sister. She's a giantess who shrink any giant creature to human size and a human to a tiny size, including altering her own size.
Claiming the size-shifting is a complicated magic including a lot of theory will make the fairies or any characters possessing this abilities look Mary Sue. Because no matter the size or the magic resistance the character will be shrink and this capacity will be superior to any ability or close to nuke by snapping your fingers.

Give an elitist value to an abilities which serves only to make it cool but not prevent the abuse it's the opposite.

As one of my characters has been quote so in this discussion. I will use her as reference. Kurona can only shrink naga to human size why because her ability don't work on any other race. She can't shrink a human size naga why because if she does that the naga will be too small for her and difficult to catch due to her giant size.

To prevent an abuse of an ability it's simply to show how practical and impractical it can be. For example Roy Mustang in Full Metal Alchimist if you saw the last episode of the brotyherhood or read the manga. You know this guy is the most powerfull character but he is easy to counter. The power of Mustang is to create a spark with is glove made in pyrotex and control how it burn by manipulating the concentration of oxygen of air. So technically it can blast an army of zombie or blast a naga. However this ability it easy to counter a creature more agile than him can easily have the edge on him, the moisture of the air can affect it. That's why he is powerless when it's raining. Claiming you can beat him by opposing him water can backfired you easily see his fight against Lust. He showed he was able to decomposed water, wateris the consequence of the fusion of oxygen and hydrogen two of the easiest burning element in the universe. Solution made with sodium like napalm makes water useless against fire. In addition he can use a lighter to made spark.

Why he is snapping his finger, it's not because it's coolest bu simply to gain time. Using a lighter involve you have to hold it constantly and it's faster to take you gun from it's holster than to remove your lighter from your pocket. And it's ability impose it to keep his opponent at distant because to have a good control of his flame he has to use his eye to aim. It's a more sniper like ability than a close combat one. At close range speed and reflex tend to have the edge against a man with a machine gun he can be easily defeat. So in theory is power look powerful but in practical application show man flaws.

Let's come back to Felarya: Imagine a fairy try to shrink a group of explorer, it's easier to say she shrinks them all in a blink of eyes. It's possible at condition this guy didn't know magic and never been exposed to it. Someone who live in Felarya and have a better tolerance to magic will resist or be immune but does it will affect the fairy? No the fairies will try to affect the size of his clothes to constrict him or overgrown them to make too dificult to wear or use or simply she will grow and grab him. The shrink ability is not the deadliest ability but more the ability to change their size and using advanced system like trap in a similar way than humans.

To limit an ability the solution is to show how practical and impractical he can't be which make look like more a tool than the ultimate weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:01 pm

Meh, I myself still agree with JohnDoe, but I see your point. However, nothing is un-counterable. As I've said before, fairy size-changing (as well as any other type) is really dimensional distortion, a type which fairies are naturally able to utilize (and dimensional fairies are able to use in other ways), but other races would have to learn. However, anyone who learns a skill will have an advantage over a natural, since they have to understand the factors involved. But dimensional distortions are tricky, and even fairies might be prone to mess up if they're distracted. In fact, while we're referencing our own stories, in my old and now-deleted Felarya Saga, Zion and Co. actually fight a dimensional fairy and emerge victorious, even though dimensional fairies are some of Deeper Felarya most feared predators. The secret? Good strategy. Kenson provoked the fairy, causing her to warp him into her stomach. Undaunted, Kenson began to lay the smackdown on her innards, while Zion opened up with his assault from outside her body. Unable to deal with both Zion and Kenson at the same time, the fairy's mind was easy prey for Leif's psychic might, and he soon had complete control over her nervous system.

Size-shifting is a complicated magic, but not necessarily any more so than teleportation, which many characters possess. The difference is that magic in Felarya isn't about ingenuity, it's about using what you know. If the knowledge of size-shifting is rare, than it won't be widespread. Few mages really know about the numerous factors involved in what they do, but it works anyways. Same with size-shifting. A character that does know a thing or two (*cough*Zion!*coughcough*) would have a nice advantage.
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:25 pm

The most fear among fairies are the Crimson Maiden due to they are known to burn their opponent into ashes their opponent and their war like society. The canopy fairies are just fairy who can teleport their food in to their stomach and know to use dimensional base magic but it doesn't make them more powerful than other fairy in particular. for example I asked Karbo once if a canopy fairy can teleport a giant naga into her stomach he answered no she can't because she will burst. Their belly shift is limited by the physical limit of their stomach it allows just they send their food directly inside their stomach without swallow it but beyond is pretty dangerous.

Saying learning skills has advantage to natural abilities is not really true. For example you can learn to swim but you won't swim faster than a fish, you can learn to run you will never outrun a cheetah or any fast animals. The difference won't come if your ability are natural or not but your experience. Look at me I'm a foreigner I learn to speak English but I'm a bit limited next to English natives who learn to speak with his parent without knowing to read or write. Learning something makes you to understand how it works but it won't make you necessary better than a natural gifted who is more experienced in his using.

I have some doubts about the knowledge is very rare or limited to a particular elite because a mage can discover this knowledge because he wanted to shrink some objects in order to have more space or to carry easily some items, after he will try if he can change the size of living being and do more experienced before to finally write a list of a good spells. The size-changing can exist in different form for example the gyspa use their venom can compress their targets, they shrink them in a certain way but the target still conserve its mass. This ability can be useful in some situation.

Mezzus study fairies and their abilities in overall and was able to understand their abilities
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PostSubject: Re: Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:57 am

Of course you can't swim faster than a fish... but you can know the science of hydrodynamics and construct a water vessel to do that. Knowledge is power, always. Humanity rules Earth not because they're naturally strong or fast, but because we learned how to conquer it. A mage may not be able to cast as well as a naturally-gifted pred, but his knowledge could allow for greater creativity and tactical usage.

Studying fairies may be one way to gain the proper knowledge, but how many people could actually survive an in-depth study? I still think knowledge and scientific progress is rare because few Felaryans have the means to advance. Necessity may be the mother of invention, but means is the father. Who's going to experiment and devise theories when you can't get any good field studies?
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Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!
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