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PostSubject: The right weapon   Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:08 pm

So I was like "let's develop the FOOD guys" and then I went like develop the FOOD guys. I was writing some shit like that when all of a sudden this motherfucka of a question justa hit me.

"Does a bizarre selection of weapons improve survival chances at all?"

You see, at first I thought that it didn't really matter what weapons they used; it'd be better to just use whatever was fun and then let them get eaten. You know, like they had just went up against Steven Seagal. They were meant to be cannon fodder, right?

Then comes along all those people who had a laugh with the puns, and Frenchsnack who showed me they could be taken more seriously if I just put a little effort into it. So then I see all those people who are complaining no one can believably survive in Felarya... long story short, I'm trying to make it believable that F.O.O.D. can complete a mission alive. And for that purpose, I think I should do away with them defaulting to bow, gun, sword, taser. I can't have both bows and guns together, there's a reason why one displaced the other. The FOOD guys are supposed to be cheap, but there's a lower limit to the money you can spend in something that works, as the public schooling system has consistently proven. It'd be worth for its survival potential to spend some money in the right kind of gun, and thus make it so that anything that tries to kill you will have to be bulletproof first.

Those are my thoughts on the issue.

Anything you use will need to allow you a good reaction time, it needs to be able to be used in close quarters, and in enclosed spaces (which you'll want to protect). Great predators don't count for the kind of gun you need; if a gun gets you through a predator, we'll be missing all the fun! (Besides you're going to make the rocket launchers feel neglected.) So you'll need something for everything else, all the big animals that will hop at you, get you pinned on the ground, and swallow you (whether whole and alive or not).
You'll also need something for the carnivorous plants, and the great predators.

Shotguns with trick ammo are neat, shotguns are cool after all and trick ammo can beat anything, but unless they give you the ability to respond to a threat you just saw with the right kind of ammo (which means looking, thinking, loading, then shooting, rather than just shooting), they're going to become a disadvantage.
Rifles are nice, specially with a silencer, a flash supressor, and subsonic ammo, you'll own anyone and no one will come to help them. However, using a rifle in close-quarters would be an exercise in futility.
The Isosceles stance for most handguns would make it very easy for something that you haven't seen yet to swat them out of your arm... or to eat your arm and leave you unable to counterattack. The Straight-Arm and Shooter (was it Shooter?) stances suffer from similar problems: something could leap at your arm.

My personal pick, all things considered then, would be a SMG designed to shoot from the hip. Something small enough to handle well, but heavy enough to take the recoil, with a flash supressor, a silencer, and subsonic, but very dense rounds (iron iodide core with an overlapping layer of steel, for example). Accuracy wouldn't be much of an issue, you're going to use it mainly for things that are trying to tear your throat off, so who cares if the barrel is a little out of line?
A visible light laser aim (with an on/off switch) would be nice. You can use the red dot to distract predators by pointing it at their eyes, but it's completely a side benefit. If we could have an underslung shotgun in there, like the KAC Masterkey, it'd be neat; you can load it with trick ammo, but that sounds like we're already overstepping a little.

This kind of weapon would be pretty weak in the Great Predator and Carnivorous Plants department, but I'm sure another weapon could deal with that. Not to mention in the sniper department, or the department for raiders armed with fully automatic weapons that can mow down dozen after dozen of people. But really, how many people in Felarya get killed by a bullet to the head?

For all I've been taught in college so far, unfortunately, I can only design the salts...

Any thoughts on the issue of what'd be the workhorse weapon in Felarya? For which purposes?

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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:54 pm

The most common weapon in Felarya, unfortunately, appears to be limited to medieval weaponry at best. With no regard to formation, either: Pretty much everyone seemingly operates in "Skirmisher" formation. So this means weapons that would be common sense (Regiment of Pikemen = wall of spears very few non-magical or co-ordinated enemies will want to press) are instead nigh-liability (give a handful of scattered guys 3m pikes and see how well they do individually).

Crossbows and Bows seem like they'd be the most preferential weapon, as pretty much everything is physically superior to a regular person (or even Neko). Bows and Crossbows don't care that you're stronger, and can always be souped up magically to get slightly closer to the void in technology (I wonder if you could apply large amounts of acceleration / speed-boosting enchantments to a Crossbow for instance to make a very crude Anti-Material weapon). Main reason that I'm somewhat against these is that - logically - wood would be very limited on Felarya. Look at how big trees are, and how tall up the branches. Can you imagine how much work it takes to get the material? It's abundant / all over the place, but actual harvesting of it would be nigh impossible (Imagine a tree "only" with a 15' diameter being a sapling tree to cut).

Spear throwers could work, but are under the same penalties (needing wood).

Perhaps some sort of "Greek Fire" type of concoction would work best? If you made something flammable, most creatures that are non-sentient could be readily driven off, and fire always hurts even when a Giant.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:04 pm

Well, all I can say is that if I see one more idiot trying to kill a naga with a handgun, then I'll kill him myself.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:09 am

Malahite wrote:
Main reason that I'm somewhat against these is that - logically - wood would be very limited on Felarya. Look at how big trees are, and how tall up the branches. Can you imagine how much work it takes to get the material? It's abundant / all over the place, but actual harvesting of it would be nigh impossible (Imagine a tree "only" with a 15' diameter being a sapling tree to cut).


I think wood would be really common... but the way you would harvest it would be really strange: you'd mine it.

There are all these really large trees around, all made of wood, but too big to really cut down easily. But if you bore into them, you can just start hollowing them out, cutting boards of whatever size and shape you needed as you needed them. It would also be a pretty safe way to gather wood, even if it was very noisy, if the entrance to your wood mine was bellow ground. What is a pred going to do, bash open this giant tree to get at you?

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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:29 am

Wood mine .. that's a great idea Razz

but actually the vegetation of Felarya is a bit odd : you have giant trees that are way higher than predators. And more normal-sized vegetation, incuding trees, that sometimes even grow on their giant counterpart.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:53 am

As for anything in the modern arsenal. i think a grenade launcher will work best.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:32 am

Mentalguy wrote:
As for anything in the modern arsenal. i think a grenade launcher will work best.
Not quite sure on their lethality compared to thrown grenades, but yeah. Lethal radius of six meters on a grenade means a diameter of 39'4" diameter to the blast that's normally lethal to man-sized man-durability beings. It's not like people often imagine, a little "firecracker" that makes a Giant Predator go "Ow, quit it". It would hurt, a lot. Not lethally to an 80' Giant Predator, but easily enough to make an entire limb hurt.

A quartet of said grenade launchers, which have firing ranges between 150m and 400m (or just thrice as far as a leaning predator's reach to nearly ten times), would easily be enough to drive a Giant Predator back. After all, even if you say "It won't hurt their body": Eyes. You'd have a significantly reduced range aiming that high, but the fact that you need the grenade to hit within about 20' of somewhere near their eye to cause blindness (at least temporary, depending on how good the hit possibly permanent).

The catch is, well, where are you going to get four Grenade Launchers? Oth doesn't seem to be bringing its advanced technology (not sure if that has been redacted from the wiki) to Felarya, any such weapons in Negav are seemingly reserved predominantly for protecting the city walls with the cannons, Delurans haven't had any to my understanding, and Miratans aren't exactly known for sharing. Grenade launchers also aren't normal equipment: A recon team that accidentally landed on Felarya would maybe have a pair of them. If a military force knew what it was facing it'd have more, but then that limits effectiveness at short-range due to the whole "Firing at something within 20' = very likely self-lethal".
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:11 am

Trees growing on larger trees? Only in Felarya. XD

But yes, the wood mine would make for an interesting story, or even create a new type of scenery. SAy, for example, an entire forest where trees were mined out and there are just holes everywhere.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:40 pm

That raises even more questions about the great tree. We see it depicted as only one tree, but maybe it's actually dozens of condensed fairy rings (one tree dies, and it's children sprout up around it in a circle) all on top of each other.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:56 pm

The things you've found out, people, are pretty interesting. However, I wonder if the wood in the roots is the same as the wood in the trunk; I know nearly nothing about trees...

Also, dlausactor, Mentalguy and Malahite, you've pointed out some pretty interesting things, but I didn't ask for a weapon to attack predators with. Maybe I didn't express myself clearly... but I considered them rare enough to ignore.

What I asked for were weapons to fight everything else.

On a sidenote, I think I've found the right combination. How about this combination: SMG and combat knife for two people, the other two carry spiked shields, stun batons, and hatchets (if a finishing blow is necessary). Stun batons are a lot easier to wield than swords, and have an absolute maximum of disabling power without threatening their lives, allowing you to finish your foes off in whatever wicked way you devise.

If something jumps at you, a spiked shield is the perfect disuassive weapon, without being as disabling as spiked armor, and it can have some side utility even against giant predators: while guns are mundane enough (and bullets are invisible as they go) for people not to believe they'd work against a giant predator, it's unbelievable that bashing itself against large spikes is something a soft-skinned being could do unadaunted. I know it makes no sense, but come on, it's easier to imagine something is immune to bullets you can't see than to imagine it's immune to spikes. It worked for Megaman, didn't it?

If the spiked shield doesn't keep the enemy away, it will at least slow it down for a few seconds after every blow. That's when you jam the contact probes in it. If you fail on all three accounts, in disuassion, in slowing it down, or in sticking the contact probes, then just try to survive while one of your pals fills its face with lead or stuns it from behind. How's that for teamwork strategy?



In this case, I'm not talking about great predators, I don't think anyone has ever written about one meaning for it to be stopped with man-portable weapons. If someone could pull it off, a great predator stopped with man-portable weapons, and at the same time a story that was worth our while, that'd be awesome. Of course, you can be awesome without stopping a great predator with man-portable weapons. So it'd be difficult too.



As for the total weight involved, I'm using my Fallout 2 walkthrough and Player's Handbook 3.5 as weight references. I stated 15 pounds was already enough to start getting worried, since we're talking about people who get three months of part-time training, that's militia at best, the National Guard at worst, not actual soldiers who've lived in boot camp for a year, tempering mind and body with ferrous discipline from the best teachers that the money of a sovereign country's contributors can find.

A SMG and a combat knife weigh... we'll consider the SMG on the heavy end, the H&K P90 SMG weighs 8 pounds, the combat knife weighs 2 pounds, that leaves enough for 5 pounds of ammo and survival gear. However, since clothes already weigh 5 pounds (Traveler's outfit) or 15 pounds (leather armor), I might have to rethink this... maybe it's too steep a weight limitation? According to the PHB I should keep it down to 18 pounds (to account for Str 8, eventual lolis, or Str 8 + loli. If you have to do it with less equipment, you might as well put on some ribbons and say your best weapon is your heart).

A spiked wooden shield (wooden because nature magic is fun to use against cannon fodder, plus it's lighter) weighs 15 pounds, a handaxe weighs 3 pounds, and a cattle prod weighs 3 pounds. So it's 21 pounds for this other combination. Hmm... now I've got a weight problem here. There's some kind of wood out there that can shave off half of the shield's weight, but I'm not sure darkwood is available in Felarya. Polymers could substitute, but I'm not sure we can put spikes in a plastic shield either. Riot shields, the kind that can be used to disable any number of inmates in a jail, sounds awesome, but Felarya's kind of damp, I don't think it'd last long (or stay charged for that matter). Besides, if it's not spiky enough, it won't qualify for Rule of Cool.

How much survival equipment should be necessary, too? I picture plenty of water, plus something unappetizing that won't draw in something that'd like your meal (and you too for good measure), probably dehydrated beans or rice (or twinkies. Nothing eats twinkies unless specifically instructed to; this ration wouldn't draw anything towards you).


So, would armor have any power against most threats (other than being grabbed and gulped)? I don't know how strong are a poisonous creeper's needles supposed to be... Are they supposed to punch through leather? Hide? Metal? Space battleship hulls? All we know is that they don't punch through giant naga, and the girls vary way too much in resistance.

If anyone knows, is there some kind of reasonably light armor that could stop a lion from getting a piece of us, either? Anything that if you get pounced by panthers, or bears, can help you parry its forelimbs and jaw from your guts and throat for the three seconds it can take for a friend to kill it? Can armor help you there, or is it best to just be all the nimble you can? Most importantly, would it look appropriate as a redshirt uniform?

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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:43 pm

Double-barreled shotgun. If it can take out the forces of Hell then a couple of oversized nagas are gonna be a piece of cake.


On a more serious note, a sniper rifle and such would likely be incredibly useful as they are both very powerful and possess a long range. Even though their effectiveness would be cut down in the thick overgrowth in a forest, aiming for the eyes of any of the big preds would likely put them down or at least partially blind them. The bullets would pierce the soft tissues of the eye and possibly penetrate into the brain. Seeing as the eyes would be rather large targets on the giant preds of Felarya, this would be extremely effective.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:19 pm

Jasconius wrote:
Double-barreled shotgun. If it can take out the forces of Hell then a couple of oversized nagas are gonna be a piece of cake.


On a more serious note, a sniper rifle and such would likely be incredibly useful as they are both very powerful and possess a long range. Even though their effectiveness would be cut down in the thick overgrowth in a forest, aiming for the eyes of any of the big preds would likely put them down or at least partially blind them. The bullets would pierce the soft tissues of the eye and possibly penetrate into the brain. Seeing as the eyes would be rather large targets on the giant preds of Felarya, this would be extremely effective.
I doubt it, since a sniper rife isn't exactly the easiest weapon to throw around. I think that a solider would have a bit of trouble trying to handle the weapon and get it aimed at a pred's eye.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:59 pm

um, actually a sniper rifle would probably just blind that, if it hit the right optical nerve. remember that an eye that's that much bigger will have much more fluid for the bullet to go through. you'd have to be sure to hit a certain area. also, since the creatures are much bigger, bullets will do less damage as there is far more flesh to go through.

guns don't work too well because it pretty much feels like a needle at the doctor's.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:26 pm

I’m not sure what weapon would be ideal – likely a combination of them. A good knife is an absolute must, not just for being a weapon, but for the utility of it as well. Handguns are good for close-range. And SMG as you said is a good choice also. Shotguns would be nice as well, but now you’re dealing with bigger and bigger things to carry. Same goes for rifles or MGs.

Non-lethal devices might be just as effective at keeping you alive – think flashbang/smoke grenades, magnesium striker sticks, super powerful flashlights, decoy sirens/alarms, etc. If you want to go a little higher tech, think of a light projector that mimics a human doing something silly (to confuse your foe long enough for you to make good on your escape), night vision and/or infrared equipment, etc.

Weapon aside, I’d definitely try to get my hands on some type of magical enhancement. I know you said FOOD is cheap. Still, I think some of them could afford a few enchantments – even it’s as simple as silencing their weapon, making it lighter, reducing or eliminating the recoil, dimensionally altering the ammunition so that they can carry more – things of that nature. For knives/sword, something that makes them unnaturally sharp or keeps them always sharp/clean would be nice. For armor, something that reduces the noise it makes or lowers its wearers “magical” signature that some predators are known to use – a kind of stealth effect if you will. For the other things, even tiny enhancements could make the world of difference – a cloth pouch that is magically watertight, a match that always lights, a light that never runs out of power, and on and on… Could FOOD afford one or two small magical boons per person out of the list above? Or are they strictly limited to non-magical items?

If you’re willing to dip into alchemy, you could come up with all sorts of nastiness that predators haven’t dealt with (at least, not in stories I’ve read). Or you could go the good old fashioned D&D buffing route and give them access to potions that increase their speed, endurance, senses, strength, etc. More than one adventuring party has been saved by the timely application of a potion or three.

Felarya’s supposed to be a magic-rich world and there are some incredibly powerful magic-users around. This is often ignored (other than the fact that Negav exists purely because of some of those incredibly powerful magic-users). Surely some of them have set up shop to sell such things to would be adventurers? And if people had access to such services, I’m almost certain they’d utilize them. Smaller/simpler enchantments shouldn’t be that terribly expensive. Permanent enchantments would be more expensive, I would assume. What about temporary enchantments that are meant to last days or weeks, just enough for a mission?

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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:31 pm

I agree with timing2 here, also ultimately it would come down to what you're most skilled with i would think. Dealing with creatures as massive as the one's felarya has...one's level of danger over another wouldn't be as significant unless you hit a weak point.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:13 pm

Archmage_Bael wrote:
um, actually a sniper rifle would probably just blind that, if it hit the right optical nerve. remember that an eye that's that much bigger will have much more fluid for the bullet to go through. you'd have to be sure to hit a certain area. also, since the creatures are much bigger, bullets will do less damage as there is far more flesh to go through.
This is obviously true, a shot to the eye will just blind (temporarily thanks to the healing effect). However, since modern sniper rifles fire bullets at supersonic speeds, there will be more damage than just the actual bullet piercing. I think that since it will be hitting the liquid inside the eye the bullet would fragment due to its immense speed. Those fragments would cause serious problems, much extending the healing time.
Archmage_Bael wrote:
guns don't work too well because it pretty much feels like a needle at the doctor's.
I think they'd hurt a bit more than that, people really do underestimate the power of guns.

timing2 wrote:
I’m not sure what weapon would be ideal – likely a combination of them. A good knife is an absolute must, not just for being a weapon, but for the utility of it as well. Handguns are good for close-range. And SMG as you said is a good choice also. Shotguns would be nice as well, but now you’re dealing with bigger and bigger things to carry. Same goes for rifles or MGs.

Non-lethal devices might be just as effective at keeping you alive – think flashbang/smoke grenades, magnesium striker sticks, super powerful flashlights, decoy sirens/alarms, etc. If you want to go a little higher tech, think of a light projector that mimics a human doing something silly (to confuse your foe long enough for you to make good on your escape), night vision and/or infrared equipment, etc.

Weapon aside, I’d definitely try to get my hands on some type of magical enhancement. I know you said FOOD is cheap. Still, I think some of them could afford a few enchantments – even it’s as simple as silencing their weapon, making it lighter, reducing or eliminating the recoil, dimensionally altering the ammunition so that they can carry more – things of that nature. For knives/sword, something that makes them unnaturally sharp or keeps them always sharp/clean would be nice.
MUST Inc sells eversharp blades and their cheaper variants (the ones that self sharpen).
timing2 wrote:
For armor, something that reduces the noise it makes or lowers its wearers “magical” signature that some predators are known to use – a kind of stealth effect if you will. For the other things, even tiny enhancements could make the world of difference – a cloth pouch that is magically watertight
Don’t need magic for something that simple, unless you mean that water could never enter it, even if it was opened underwater.
timing2 wrote:
a match that always lights, a light that never runs out of power, and on and on… Could FOOD afford one or two small magical boons per person out of the list above? Or are they strictly limited to non-magical items?

If you’re willing to dip into alchemy, you could come up with all sorts of nastiness that predators haven’t dealt with (at least, not in stories I’ve read). Or you could go the good old fashioned D&D buffing route and give them access to potions that increase their speed, endurance, senses, strength, etc. More than one adventuring party has been saved by the timely application of a potion or three.

Felarya’s supposed to be a magic-rich world and there are some incredibly powerful magic-users around. This is often ignored (other than the fact that Negav exists purely because of some of those incredibly powerful magic-users). Surely some of them have set up shop to sell such things to would be adventurers? And if people had access to such services, I’m almost certain they’d utilize them. Smaller/simpler enchantments shouldn’t be that terribly expensive. Permanent enchantments would be more expensive, I would assume. What about temporary enchantments that are meant to last days or weeks, just enough for a mission?
Yeah, Magical and Useful Survival Tools Inc does this (Among other things). If an adventurer wants his favourite sword to stay magically sharp, they do that too.
They also they sell standardised equipment, most of which have small (or large if you have money) magical enhancements.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:52 pm

Stabs wrote:
Also, dlausactor, Mentalguy and Malahite, you've pointed out some pretty interesting things, but I didn't ask for a weapon to attack predators with. Maybe I didn't express myself clearly... but I considered them rare enough to ignore.

What I asked for were weapons to fight everything else.
Oh, then situationally dependent. Typical warfare stuff, however. Pretty much anything that can be used properly as a weapon in such an instance, can be used in such an instance. We're probably going to see a lot of Crossbows however (if I had to guess) due to the type of environment (Volleying is bound to piss something off higher in the trees), and the type of enchantments / capability advantages such weapons have at shorter ranges over bows.

Crossbows as the predominant ranged weapon, for melee it depends on if you're tightly packed (in which case something like a pike wall will be pure evil) or going for individuals (in which case it depends on if you're doing human-like humans and nekos or Guts & Fingolfin-like versions that say "FUCK YOU!" to expectations of the human(ish) norm).

Stabs wrote:
If the spiked shield doesn't keep the enemy away, it will at least slow it down for a few seconds after every blow. That's when you jam the contact probes in it. If you fail on all three accounts, in disuassion, in slowing it down, or in sticking the contact probes, then just try to survive while one of your pals fills its face with lead or stuns it from behind. How's that for teamwork strategy?
Just a heads up that if the spiked shield is spiked enough that most weapons have a very high chance of getting jammed or barred with it, then it's very likely it'll be a pain for you to manage as well. Let alone the maintenance of it, and how quickly spikes would get worn down / broken off and thus need repair.

Stabs wrote:
In this case, I'm not talking about great predators, I don't think anyone has ever written about one meaning for it to be stopped with man-portable weapons. If someone could pull it off, a great predator stopped with man-portable weapons, and at the same time a story that was worth our while, that'd be awesome. Of course, you can be awesome without stopping a great predator with man-portable weapons. So it'd be difficult too.
Technically, it's painfully easy to stop a Giant Predator with man-portable weapons. The catch is you need to jack up to modern-esque level weaponry, and that most people also jack Giant Predators up to be proportionally durable to a slab of iron. As in, "Oh look at these missiles they're pattering off me like rain I'm getting angry you silly food-things" Predators that for some reason take a Davy Crockett to the face to even slow. Considering a lot of people see this a high-fantasy-esque realm with characters like they belong in an anime (in terms of design and power), it's not exactly surprising: A lot of people are much more interested in a Wesker or Ichigo-powerful character than they are in someone like a Boromir (who is particularly notable for being 'ard like a human would probably be).

Back to the main point, Giant Predator can be stopped with man-portable weapons. Quite readily, without even going into Sci-Fi. Just a few SAWs and Rocket Launchers / Grenade Launchers, or even a few Flamethrowers added in, would be more than sufficient for at least driving one off. Of course, this goes off real world physics. Similarly "Of course!", some universes have man-portable weapons that could slaughter a Predator (even a Giant One) without non-magical immunities (A FORCE:Ground rifle, for instance, could possibly even one-shot a Diamond Naga that turned the area to be shot into Diamond: 500m penetration of an unknown stone meaning that even if they made about a 2m depth equal to about 400m of that stone, there'd still be a 100m penetration remaining). However, such weapons are "cheap" on Felarya, mostly because it's akin to throwing a party of Enclave Power Armored Troopers together to assault the Shire as of the start of The Hobbit: Brutally (and possibly even enjoyably at the start) one-sided, quick to be resolved, not much left afterwards.

Archmage_Bael wrote:
um, actually a sniper rifle would probably just blind that, if it hit the right optical nerve.
Unless an anti-material rifle, probably just blinding. A lot of people tend to forget that human skulls (and thus, most Giant Predators) have bone behind the eyes. You need to penetrate that too before you can get to the juicy good noggin'. Of course, an Anti-Material rifle may very well have such a penetration capability (in the very least enough to over-penetrate the skull part).

Archmage_Bael wrote:
also, since the creatures are much bigger, bullets will do less damage as there is far more flesh to go through.
This is actually false. Bullets aren't "neat little holes". Gunshot exit wounds tend to be nasty, because you're just dragging more and more with you.

Now, while said bullet is unlikely to make an exit wound on a Giant Predator (again barring something like a stupidly powerful rifle, which might just go so fast that it can't create such an extra-ordinary exit wound anyways), it's going to work under the same mechanic. Internal bleeding will still hurt, muscles torn will still hurt. The muscle won't magically be immune to the damage (unless by OP fiat): If you fire an M-16 up a Predator's arm and empty an entire magazine over an area about the size of a dinner plate, that wound is going to smart even being comparatively the size of almost an inch-sized crater in a human limb (actually, still consider how badly you'd be hurt having a good inch-diameter sized chunk of flesh violently torn from your arm, even if less than a finger-nail deep).

People tend to do direct scales, which don't always work for a variety of reasons. "Oh, it's only .50 calibre, for a Giant Predator that must be something like a pin-sized hole". Fine, take a pin. Now take said pin and shove it all the way up to the threading hole in your arm. Hurts now, doesn't it? Let alone that you might as well have the tip growing the further you put it in: Say that by the time it's fully in, the pin's reversed and now you have the threading hole-sized end as the deepest point.

Archmage_Bael wrote:
I agree with timing2 here, also ultimately it would come down to what you're most skilled with i would think.
This is also something to keep in mind. While many people will upgrade to whatever gives them the most chance at survival, a lot will also stick with what's familiar as they know its weight, how it handles, what it can and cannot do at the given moment, etcetera.

Archmage_Bael wrote:
Dealing with creatures as massive as the one's felarya has...one's level of danger over another wouldn't be as significant unless you hit a weak point.
This is mostly a result of the fact that most Felaryan People are Renaissance Technology, no-magic equipped at best. Or, in other words, it's artificially imposed. About 1% of demi-humans are mages. Maybe 10% will have ranged weapons of some crude design. 50% have the self-preservation drive of a lemming. Most of those with more self-preservation are capped at renaissance-level melee tech.

When capped at medieval weapons and given a disproportionate cap on Wizards, it does sorta mean you're at a very low danger level. However, by the same token you're ending a lot of people's fun if you can just end a Vore story / remove a story's main antagonist by having the Mercs / Adventurers go "Five rounds rapid into the big scaled chap, Lightning Bolt the head ol' Merlin n' Tim!"


Speaking of which, spells that summon lightning from the sky would probably be very non-helpful on Felarya. Think of where the most likely place to be struck by lightning is, and think of the typical Felaryan Terrain. Not exactly good for calling lightning bolts down onto a regiment.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:32 am

timing2 wrote:
I’m not sure what weapon would be ideal – likely a combination of them. A good knife is an absolute must, not just for being a weapon, but for the utility of it as well. Handguns are good for close-range. And SMG as you said is a good choice also. Shotguns would be nice as well, but now you’re dealing with bigger and bigger things to carry. Same goes for rifles or MGs.

Non-lethal devices might be just as effective at keeping you alive – think flashbang/smoke grenades, magnesium striker sticks, super powerful flashlights, decoy sirens/alarms, etc. If you want to go a little higher tech, think of a light projector that mimics a human doing something silly (to confuse your foe long enough for you to make good on your escape), night vision and/or infrared equipment, etc.

Yes, of course. However, hi-tech is a bitch to adjudicate, so I prefer avoiding it whenever possible. Knowledge, on the other hand, can never be assumed overpowered, so it's what I'm trying to work with, mostly. No one can tell you 'WTF!? Your character knew how to make a Dakota firepit!? That's SO broken! Why don't you go and make him immune to bullets too!? He can fly for good measure!' 'Well, I'd love to, but God didn't do that with me, so...'

timing2 wrote:
Weapon aside, I’d definitely try to get my hands on some type of magical enhancement. I know you said FOOD is cheap. Still, I think some of them could afford a few enchantments – even it’s as simple as silencing their weapon, making it lighter, reducing or eliminating the recoil, dimensionally altering the ammunition so that they can carry more – things of that nature. For knives/sword, something that makes them unnaturally sharp or keeps them always sharp/clean would be nice. For armor, something that reduces the noise it makes or lowers its wearers “magical” signature that some predators are known to use – a kind of stealth effect if you will. For the other things, even tiny enhancements could make the world of difference – a cloth pouch that is magically watertight, a match that always lights, a light that never runs out of power, and on and on… Could FOOD afford one or two small magical boons per person out of the list above? Or are they strictly limited to non-magical items?

If you’re willing to dip into alchemy, you could come up with all sorts of nastiness that predators haven’t dealt with (at least, not in stories I’ve read). Or you could go the good old fashioned D&D buffing route and give them access to potions that increase their speed, endurance, senses, strength, etc. More than one adventuring party has been saved by the timely application of a potion or three.

Felarya’s supposed to be a magic-rich world and there are some incredibly powerful magic-users around. This is often ignored (other than the fact that Negav exists purely because of some of those incredibly powerful magic-users). Surely some of them have set up shop to sell such things to would be adventurers? And if people had access to such services, I’m almost certain they’d utilize them. Smaller/simpler enchantments shouldn’t be that terribly expensive. Permanent enchantments would be more expensive, I would assume. What about temporary enchantments that are meant to last days or weeks, just enough for a mission?

Well, my problems with fantasy settings are those two notes you hit: magic and money.
If I go by the strict interpretation of D&D rules, I could take out great predators by 7th level. Seriously, I designed a strategy to take out CR 13 dragons at that level, and I've got a strategy to take down a gold great wyrm (or whatever dragon you want, because I'm a bona fide munchkin) at 13th level. Core material alone. Period. If you want, I can do it without using magical items too. And you can play the dragon smart if you want, it won't make a difference, I'll kill it anyway.

Magic would be nice, but I try to avoid it; it's really, really hard to set a bar. D&D is everything I've got on that note, and I'm trying to lay the stuff off. There, a suit of magical armor, the least there is, costs 1000 gp. That's already 20 pounds of gold. Also, I have no idea how much would be too much; how much are mercenaries supposed to charge, how much for magic, and how much magic is too much, how much money is supposed to be little... Felarya's very diffuse there, I'd sooner avoid the issue. Besides, predator sense was supposed to detect magic; magic uncontrolled, even a little, I could abuse, therefore the people who spend 24 hours a day in Felarya and live in life-or-death situations should abuse it worse than me. So I assume generally that carrying magic items for stealth is self-defeating as far as preds are concerned.

As for minor enchantments on weapons... frankly I don't really see much point, timing. Weapons are supposed to have recoil, it's a part of the muscle training involved in handling them, magazines are meant to be the right size, and a flashlight with decent batteries isn't likely to run out of power anytime soon. I suppose they could afford it... if it was affordable.

In the end, I thought we could assume there's such a surplus of guns and magic in Felarya that you can afford anything the plot requires you to have. freak out so I'm trying to decide what do we need them to have.

Malahite wrote:
Oh, then situationally dependent. Typical warfare stuff, however. Pretty much anything that can be used properly as a weapon in such an instance, can be used in such an instance. We're probably going to see a lot of Crossbows however (if I had to guess) due to the type of environment (Volleying is bound to piss something off higher in the trees), and the type of enchantments / capability advantages such weapons have at shorter ranges over bows.

Crossbows as the predominant ranged weapon, for melee it depends on if you're tightly packed (in which case something like a pike wall will be pure evil) or going for individuals (in which case it depends on if you're doing human-like humans and nekos or Guts & Fingolfin-like versions that say "FUCK YOU!" to expectations of the human(ish) norm).
Rawr, crossbows. Hmm... maybe enchanted crossbows that are easier to reload, or to point in a pinch...

Malahite wrote:
Just a heads up that if the spiked shield is spiked enough that most weapons have a very high chance of getting jammed or barred with it, then it's very likely it'll be a pain for you to manage as well. Let alone the maintenance of it, and how quickly spikes would get worn down / broken off and thus need repair.
Actually, I meant lions and hippos by enemies. There's no need to jam weapons in it... as long as it keeps the hippo on its toes you'll make do.

Stabs wrote:
In this case, I'm not talking about great predators, I don't think anyone has ever written about one meaning for it to be stopped with man-portable weapons. If someone could pull it off, a great predator stopped with man-portable weapons, and at the same time a story that was worth our while, that'd be awesome. Of course, you can be awesome without stopping a great predator with man-portable weapons. So it'd be difficult too.

Stabs wrote:
Technically, it's painfully easy to stop a Giant Predator with man-portable weapons. However, such weapons are "cheap" on Felarya, mostly because it's akin to throwing a party of Enclave Power Armored Troopers together to assault the Shire as of the start of The Hobbit: Brutally (and possibly even enjoyably at the start) one-sided, quick to be resolved, not much left afterwards.
Whales are killed by seagulls IRL, Malahite! There's no need to keep posting a wall of text about how predators should be vulnerable to killing force every time you post, we already know it! Besides, if diamond nagas were really made of diamond, just cleaving along the right axis would produce decapitation. Preds are tougher than drop-forged steel because they have to be, Malahite.

But if you want, I'm working on one that isn't. Maybe you'll like her, if you point a gun at her she'll have to hide. And she knows it, at 130 feet tall.



Well, guys, thanks for the discussion. I think I'll stick to SMGs (silencer, subsonic hyperdense rounds for minimum noise and maximum stopping power) and combat knives for this exercise.

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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:59 am

People always go for sniper rifles when they want heavy weapons. A CZ550 with a .600 Overkill would do serious damage to a pred without going overboard in the tech department. Its also something a civvy can acquire - that shot is designed for taking down elephants from the front and charging dangerous game, so I think it could go through a pred's bone as well. Problem is, its just one shot (two modified), so you'd better make it count.


The real problem with the gun argument really is deployable scale. Anything >25lbs or requiring setup is not something you're going to be lugging around the forest with you without a support train or convoy. Of course, getting ammo for them, unless you're making it yourself, would also be a problem. If we use the 1:1 scale argument, human skin thickness is around 4+ mm at its thickest points on an average human. That would make it around 4.25+ inches on a 75' pred, which is not enough to stop any real firearm you'd be using. The .600 Overkill can penetrate several feet into solid oak. We could argue that density of a pred's skin is higher, but even so, you're still not looking at enough to stop a round.


That being said, bar the use of HE or high caliber rounds that have good penetration and could actually create an exit wound, you're talking about a projectile that is still very small in diameter. Unlike in a human or a large game animal on earth, preds in Felarya are much larger, and many of the tauric species do have armor. Unless you can coordinate your fire into dense patterns, you aren't going to get enough damage to disable. Low caliber rounds are going to more than likely pelt and shatter against a pred rather than penetrate (see angles of attack, projectile speed, stopping power, density/sa, etc), leaving you with medium and heavy calibers for discouragement. And you'd have to be hoping that they're actually discouraged, not just pissed off. Only a lucky shot from a high caliber handheld weapon or a vehicle mounted gun or a missile launcher or kinetic energy round is going to have the capability of killing a predator outright.


It should be noted though that several preds have had experience with pain however. Granted, not many are up to Garnet's scale in this regard, but a variety of them have had to battle off opponents that wanted them for dinner, and not all of these critters are into the soft vore-sque style. Compared to what they've experienced in the past, a decent hit from a human weapon would only be a minor injury to be ignored. Granted, I imagine if you lit up someone like Jora with a few dozen rounds, she'd bail. So mentality also plays a part here, not just the weapons being used. Someone can think "Oh, that's a glancing blow" but another person would be doubled over in pain.


We should also take into account that predators generally learn that which they live through. There are several preds that know better than to hit a convoy of humans unless they can gain some tactical advantage over them. If getting shot hurts, just don't get shot. Weapons only work if they're actually able to be used (WWII battleship Yamato argument).
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:47 am

One of the top ten things to remember during a zombie apocalypse: You always need more ammo to reload your guns.
Bladed weapons, however, never need to be reloaded.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:05 pm

The healing factor is the main case you have to factor in while fighting, it increases a predators durability by a considerable amount, so a weapon designed to counteract the healing factor. The best way to counter healing is cauterization, cauterized wounds will take considerably longer to heal, if they heal at all. Think of Hercules vs the Hydra, the Hydra would regenerate heads at a rapid rate until Herc heated his sword and stabbed the severed neck, and the head could not regrow. So one would think a highly heated weapon that cauterizes wounds made by it would damage the healing factor immensely. Try thinking along those lines.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:54 pm

Irrelevant wrote:
One of the top ten things to remember during a zombie apocalypse: You always need more ammo to reload your guns.
Bladed weapons, however, never need to be reloaded.
This is a big problem people tend to ignore: Blades need to be repaired and maintained. A lot. If you just keep using a blade, using a blade, using a blade, it's eventually going to either be worn dull or break (or both), alongside stuff like chips.

It doesn't remove that you need to reload and resupply, but it's not as though melee weapons are short on such demand either. Similarly, barring someone who went "Oh hey neat item I'll buy it," or the rest of operations turning away from the plan, ammunition is probably not much a concern for a party that has the means to be equipped entirely with modern-ish firearms.

Prof.Nekko wrote:
The healing factor is the main case you have to factor in while fighting, it increases a predators durability by a considerable amount, so a weapon designed to counteract the healing factor. The best way to counter healing is cauterization, cauterized wounds will take considerably longer to heal, if they heal at all. Think of Hercules vs the Hydra, the Hydra would regenerate heads at a rapid rate until Herc heated his sword and stabbed the severed neck, and the head could not regrow. So one would think a highly heated weapon that cauterizes wounds made by it would damage the healing factor immensely. Try thinking along those lines.
This is good thinking. Poisons also seem to work well, since many beings thrive off being able to cripple / kill something with poisons, and acids as well (seeing as how people don't spend days being digested). Of course, they're still mutually exclusive (you can't very well poison fire), but they'd probably be key things in many battles either versus-Predator or versus-Demihumans.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:51 pm

I would think the best weapon would be either some horrible beartrap like device, that attaches to the uvula/ inside of the mouth (assuming you were able to even have time to get it on there, or (at least for sentient predators) simply rolling around in something horrible. I know i wouldn't want to eat someone who had just rolled through a bunch of someone's poop. Not that I would want to roll in anyone's poop.

Or, even better, this.


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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:50 pm

Malahite wrote:
Of course, they're still mutually exclusive (you can't very well poison fire),...

Or can you? Very Happy (I'm thinking about burning something that has toxic byproducts, so it would both be on fire and poisonous.)

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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:03 am

Quote :
If I go by the strict interpretation of D&D rules, I could take out great predators by 7th level

Quote :
Or you could go the good old fashioned D&D buffing route

Quote :
D&D is everything I've got on that note

Felarya is not D&D nor should it operate on D&D rules.
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