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Jew
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:00 am

I reckon that one very effective, if difficult to obtain weapon to fight predators with would be large doses of various chemicals. They don't have to be poison or fatal either, you have drugs that give the victim cripplingly terrifying hallucinations, (I saw a vid where the gas was used on a cat who regularly caught rats, and as soon as the doctors put the rat in the same cage the poor cat just started -screaming- and trying to climb the walls) or drugs that act as strong depressants, which would make the target very sluggish and dopey. But there's basically a drug for whatever crazy effect you want, and if you found a practical way of making and administering it (gas grenades would probably get you too in the huge cloud it'd take to effect a giant) it'd be great.

Also IDK much about guns but I think one that could work really well would be a Rivet gun like the Rosies use in Bioshock, they're designed to punch through metal and you can upgrade it to shoot white-hot rivets. Small, deep holes/burns would take a long time to heal, burns always do.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:35 am

Jew wrote:
Also IDK much about guns but I think one that could work really well would be a Rivet gun like the Rosies use in Bioshock, they're designed to punch through metal and you can upgrade it to shoot white-hot rivets. Small, deep holes/burns would take a long time to heal, burns always do.
How about this?
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:37 am

Out of ANY post in this thread, the one I agree with the most is the Bee Gun.

Now that would get my vote hands down.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:53 am

Or perhaps....a chainsaw possibly fused to a gun would be the best melee weapon. (provided the user has some decent strength.) It could basically rip deep into anything.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:10 am

alliance wrote:
Or perhaps....a chainsaw possibly fused to a gun would be the best melee weapon. (provided the user has some decent strength.) It could basically rip deep into anything.
This ain't gears of war.

Having anything like that is very clumsy. If you want a chainsaw you get a chainsaw. When using it close range the gun part would just be extra weight.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:21 am

I was thinking along the lines in .hack
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:45 pm

Anime-Junkie wrote:
If you want a chainsaw you get a chainsaw.
Related. I'd imagine you NEED something like this on Felarya to properly go logging, so I would assume this functions as a sort of improvised weapon (insofar as a thing requiring two or more people to man and with pretty much no safety besides "Don't play around with it" can be used as a weapon).

And Rivet Guns, while nice against Predators, are probably more limited against man-sized enemies. Similar to the above chainsaw.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:58 am

Malahite wrote:
Related.
Error 403 Forbidden.
Can you upload it somewhere else?
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:09 am

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Malahite wrote:
Related.
Error 403 Forbidden.
Can you upload it somewhere else?
Better?
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:24 am

I like that uber-chainsaw!

But I thought I pointed out in another thread that loggers in Felarya don't have to cut down trees to get wood; they could simply "mine" out the inside of a big tree, entering and exiting the tree through an underground tunnel. This keeps them quite safe from anything that can't bash its way through lots of wood very quickly.

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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:20 am

Oldman40k2003 wrote:
This keeps them quite safe from anything that can't bash its way through lots of wood very quickly.
What's to bet Felarya has something that can do that too?
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:04 pm

Oldman40k2003 wrote:
I like that uber-chainsaw!

But I thought I pointed out in another thread that loggers in Felarya don't have to cut down trees to get wood; they could simply "mine" out the inside of a big tree, entering and exiting the tree through an underground tunnel. This keeps them quite safe from anything that can't bash its way through lots of wood very quickly.
They can, and it'd probably be the most likely (provided the end result could be produced via wood pulp), but you cannot deny the fun in taking a V8 (or better) engine and using it to have at a tree / Predator / annoying neighbor's garden.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:07 pm

A note on bullets:

I've done a lot of looking into terminal ballistics and to be honest the worest thing you want a bullet to do is continue to go through more and more flesh. When a bullet hits a human target as Malahite said it doesn't create a neat little hole; depending on the type it either fragments; mushrooms or tumbles; and the more flesh the bullet has to go through the more it fragments/mushrooms/tumbles as energy is tranasfured from mommentum to the bullet/target. Either way you are making a wound much bigger than that of the original diameter of the the bullet.

Terminal ballistics 1

Terminal ballistics 2

A bullet wound has two parts; the temerpal cavity and the permanent cavity. The temperal cavity is the boundary of the temporary displacement of tissue by the hydrostatic effect (fluid pressure) of the bullets passage; the larger the temperal cavity the more stopping power. Note that the temperal cavity can be several inches in diameter and any blood vessels in the are would most likely be ruptured. The permanent cavity is the "hole" left in the target by the bullet's passage. It is caused by the crushing and cutting effect of the bullet. Depending on the bullet's design it can be quite large in diameter or hardly noticeable.

The temperal cavity is why you get large exit wounds; if you look at the terminal ballistics diagram and translate onto a cross section of the human torso you'll see that the cavity is still being carved up to and past the back of the torso; This is also why most headshots result in most of the head going all over the place; the bullet loses mommentum after penertrating the skull and has an increased surface area or starts to tumble. (That's right; a 7.62mm round will blow heads apart like a .50 cal.) Now these wounds wont be too deep in a giant predator however it's going to be a bit more than a pin prick. Now this brings me to the humble AK-47/AKM firing a steel cored 7.62x39mm round; if you look at the diagrams you'll see that the bullet only starts to tumble after going through over 20cm of flesh and continues to tumble for another 30cm. Now also consider that the AK-47 can be fired on fully automatic and that the target (a giant predator's torso) is the size of a barn door. The same also applies to the NATO 7.62x51mm (Which has a temperal cavity dimater of 20 cm after going through 25-30 of flesh.)

Now lets move to the .50 cal; the 12.7mm anti material round. Oddly enough against unarmoured humans a .50cal has no real stopping power (unless it's a head/spine shot) that's because the round is so fast and heavy it goes straight through the body; leaving a 12.7-13mm hole. Now if the round loses some of its mommentum and starts to fragment or tumble it will have a lot of stopping power; the temperal cavity is around 30cm in diameter at its widest point; with a permanent cavity of around 15 cm. Think about that; that's like having a 6 inch hole in your body. Now as preds have alot of flesh and bone it is very likely that the 12.7mm bullet will be slowed and will start to fragment/tumble.

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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:39 pm

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Oldman40k2003 wrote:
This keeps them quite safe from anything that can't bash its way through lots of wood very quickly.
What's to bet Felarya has something that can do that too?

Giant death woodpeckers? lol!
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:58 pm

X wrote:
Giant death woodpeckers? lol!
Woodpecker harpies. The bane of dryads. (Note; I don't think these would be giant).
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:09 pm

Malahite wrote:
They can, and it'd probably be the most likely (provided the end result could be produced via wood pulp), but you cannot deny the fun in taking a V8 (or better) engine and using it to have at a tree / Predator / annoying neighbor's garden.

The end products don't have to be made via wood pulp; to get 2x4's simply cut them out of the "mine" walls, for example.

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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:00 pm

First thought:

Spoiler:
 

2nd thought:

Spoiler:
 

3rd thought:

Spoiler:
 

That was off the top of my head. I'll come up with more when I'm feeling bored again.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:54 pm

Kain wrote:
First thought:

Spoiler:
 
Interesting Idea, however this would be quite large and unwieldy. Not to mention that the predatory would attempt to pull the bolts out.
This kind of thing would require foreknowledge of the predators location. Either that or it could be used in village/outpost/etc defence.
A few other problems I see here are obtaining dynamite. There are however other explosives (often of less power) that can be made more easily.
Lastly, (in the case of defence) nobody really wants a giant predator corpse rotting outside their village or outpost. The stench would become unbearable and the sight would be terrible. The aim of a lot of the non-negav-wall defensive weapons is deterrence.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:30 am

Well,

Predator.

It's whats for dinner.

Man, wouldn't that be ironic.


Anyway. About the bolts getting pulled out, I did the math in my head, and you're right, if they don't get deep enough, it would be possible to pull them out. This is why you do this en-masse and keep the fuse time low, so they don't have the time to pull out the bolts, and assuming they get some, they won't get them all, and as long as the first one explodes, the rest that are in proximity would explode in a chain reaction with it. This was just math done for a 60 ft tall pred. If we go even larger, the chances of the pred pulling out the dynamite just sinks further down.

And, yes, usage of this requires some planning and coordination, but it's certainly doable. It's also doable with dynamite's cheaper counterpart, TNT, though the damage is lessened. To quote wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:
The energy density (joules/kilogram or J/kg) of dynamite is approximately 7.5 MJ/kg, compared to 4.6 MJ/kg of TNT

So, per stick, I think it would now be about 1.72 MJ. Weaker, but still good.

Anyway, as a parting gift, I'll leave another quick thought behind: "Homing ammunition." Bullets, crossbows, what have, you. This would require a lot of enchanting, I guess, for the individual ammo. It'll also require a mage, or some enchanted pointer, to designate something as a target. From there on, all the attacks continue to hit the same spot, which is very bad, especially if that spot is vital.

Another thought on portals: Use a portal loop to accelerate an object to dangerous levels of speed, and then, use a portal to aim the final trajectory of the shot at a pred in whichever region you prefer. This seems like it would work much better than just letting the the one portal take objects on the ground and fling them down out of the sky.

Gonna stop before I get too into this. Need sleep. See ya.


Last edited by Kain on Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:34 am

Ironic indeed, but I really can't see that happening.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:22 am

Edited previous post to not waste space. Derp.
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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:35 am

Kain wrote:
First thought:

Spoiler:
 

There are a few problems with your discription.

1. In order for this weapon to achieve the desired resuts the bolt shaft itself would need to fully imbed itself inside the target; a handheld crossbow won't give you this kind of penetration; a ballista (the static siege engine used by the Greeks and Romans) might.

2. While a stick of dynamite has more energy of a 12.7mm bullet; they deliver their energy in different ways; a 12.7x99mm will penetrate 1 inch of steel at 100 metres; a stick of dynamite detonated against a 1 inch thick steel plate will, depending on the size of a steel plate, will leave a scorch mark, deform it slightly, or throw it a few feet in the air.

3. You can't just scale up or use direct ratios when it comes to energies which use the kinetic energy equation KE=1/2(mv^2.) You use this equation to figure out the muzzle energy of weapons. In reality a scaled up 12.7mm weapon would be closer to the main armament of a Main Battle Tank. So lets have a look at the 120mm L44 used on tanks usch as the Leopard 2A4 and the M1A1/2.

Ammunition: DM53 APFSDS anti tank round. Weight of protectile; 8.35kg. Muzzle velocity; 1750m/s. Muzzle energy; 12,785,937.5 joules or 12.7MJ

Ok as the APFSDS isn't really anywhere near a conventional bullet; we'll use something a bit more conventional; the German Pak 44 128mm Anti-tank gun.

Ammunition: AP shell (You can think of this as an oversized bullet) Weight of projectile; 28.3kg. Muzzle velocity; 1000m/s. Muzzle energy; 10150000 joules or 10.1MJ

Either way they a a bit more than the values you were giving.

4. It's still a sound idea; however such a weapon would not be an out and out pred killer; though it would work well at driving them away fro your camp/outpost.

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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:23 am

I see your point. There's also the matter that dynamite distributes its force in all directions, so maybe only half to a third would actually hit the target if not embedded completely. The biggest problem, then, is probably the delivery, although, let's be honest, heat and explosive force will both work on a pred, so the example of the steel plate doesn't really count. The heat would just make it easier for the explosion to tear through the tissue. I also thought the crossbow itself wouldn't work best as the method of delivery, it's just that it was the cheapest option I could think of. You're right, a ballista would work much better, and you could tie several sticks to it, or turn the entire shaft into a container for the dynamite, but it's certainly not as cheap as a few crossbows, though well in the technological reach of native Felaryans.

I think, en masse, it could be a very good weapon at killing giants, though, especially if you do manage to blow off a limb, or hit vital spots. For one, that's a lot of pain, and two, blood loss. Going for the eyes is no good, because even if it penetrates, the fuse might get put out early from tear-ducts, or even the eye itself leaking, and if, by chance, you somehow magically account for all of these, it's still not going to get anywhere near the back of the eye, which is necessary if you want the explosion to affect the skull itself. If you've got the skill and the opportunity, I would advise shooting up the nose. It's, pretty much, a straight line to the brain, and if the dynamite its that close to the skull, I think you could definitely shatter and fragment some bone. The fact that these can all go off simultaneously if concentrated in one spot is also one of the best selling points.

Point being, if the pred isn't running the hell away after the first few shots, and they aren't exceptionally strong, smart, or somehow resistant to intense heat and explosive force, it's not going to end well for the pred, and it's very likely she would end up dead.

Edit1: My bad on one thing, it's 2.1 MJ, not 2.8, but that's still a solid number.

Edit2: Thought it over a little, and remembered that crossbows actually have really good penetrating power. Enough for this idea to work: if you were to place a metal container on the front of the bolt, a sharp one, and then you filled the end with dynamite, hollowed out some of the wooden shaft to lead a fuse out the end, and used that to ensure it blows up while embedded inside the pred, then you would have a working system with only a few minor additions.

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PostSubject: Re: The right weapon   Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:51 pm

Quote :
I would advise shooting up the nose. It's, pretty much, a straight line to the brain, and if the dynamite its that close to the skull, I think you could definitely shatter and fragment some bone. The fact that these can all go off simultaneously if concentrated in one spot is also one of the best selling points.
This would require extreme luck or the predator to be standing completely still; which is highly unlikely.
As for blowing off an arm, I doubt that would happen, however it still would cause grevious injuries in penetrated deep enough. Which brings me to a point.
If muscle density is scale up, then I don't think the bolt will penetrate as far. Even if it isn't the bolt will be thicker, meaning that there will be more resistance and less penetration.

That aside, I still think this could be effective, but many firearms would be just as effective or more effective while being more manageable.

Finally, the question of where to obtain the explosive or components outside negav is an issue.
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