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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:04 pm

Yeah, we've got the jungle bowl, so there might be some stuff like that, minus the Bowl and resident friendly Dryad.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:38 am

Ok let's tone down a bit guys

Sean Okotami wrote:
Anyone knows that agile implies strength in the limbs. But when the wiki says that nekos are stronger than humans on average, does it mean that kind of strength or being able to do things like carry heavier loads and punch harder?

That would be strenght in the sense of carrying heavier loads.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:11 pm

Another thing, if Nekos are part cat, do they have lesser stamina than a Human?
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:36 pm

Sean Okotami wrote:
Another thing, if Nekos are part cat, do they have lesser stamina than a Human?
Indeed, this is something I would like too know too.

I would have thought that Nekos would be "sprinters."
Able to move very fast or lift a lot for a short time, but unable to sustain the weight or speed over long periods of time. (Like cheetahs)

Just a note, bringing Inus into this briefly, I would imagine that they wouldn't be able do run quite as fast over short distances, but they would be able to maintain their pace over longer distances. (Not necessarily their top speed, but still faster).

Not saying this would be true for all Nekos and Inus (greyhounds, etc). However I think that we should remember that dog breeds are not natural, a lot of them would not survive in the wild because they are too specialised or just unsuited to surviving without human help. We should think more along the lines of the natural divisions in the canine family. Dingos, coyotes, wolves and such.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:41 pm

And while we're at it, are Nekos and Elves more frail than Humans? What I mean, do they take punches, kicks, or overall damage worse and their bones are more easily broken than a Human? Along with the nimbleness, the necessary drawback of Elves is their delicate figure is, and since Nekos are descended from felines, I assume they are also fragile compared to a Human.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:01 pm

I doubt nekos are more frail than humans due to the fact they can lift heavier loads (state by Karbo), if their bone structure were more frail they would be unable to lift heavier loads.
As the Wolf's law explains, the bones resistance vary according the stress imposed upon them, so an elf or a neko during a correct physical training can be as tough as any well-trained human, as a human doing few exercise can be as frail as a neko and a elf in the same condition. So the bone resistance will depend on the physical conditions.

About punch, it exist skills to lesser or nullify a punch or a kick the damage by accompanying the blow and relaxing the muscle. A delicate figure can be worked to be more resilient.

About stamina it depend on the breathing system and her heartbeat, neko are part feline and part human, their breathing system is closed to human than cat so they have a better endurance than their animal counterpart. Elf and neko have a breathing system similar or closed to human, so you can expect their stamina very closed to us. But stamina can be improved by training there is no definite value about it.

Inus are not dogs but are part dogs and humans, they have more things than their animal counterparts like more autonomy and a human level intelligence, so they are more possibilities of development.

About possible physical drawback due to natural abilities like endurance, problem of speed, or frail constitution they can be partially compensated with proper training. Of course you won't surpass natural born specialist, a inu won't run as fast as a citas but at least can improve his/her personal performance in terms of sprinting.

What defining the physical attribute are more the living condition than a specific racial feature. Because they tend to develop to answer to the environment.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:35 am

Once again, that's up to Karbo to answer. Also, Elves and Nekos sound better than being a Human, so racial drawbacks are necessary so it doesn't feel like there's any ultimate race who have a better chance of surviving in Felarya overall. Oh, and if you're going with "weaknesses should be given to specific cultures", then I will go back to my argument that if all we're going to have is cultures and not different races, then we might as well scrap all the races and put only different group of Humans. The races should have general strengths weaknesses that can realistically come into play and weakens it, like Nekos are stronger and faster than Humans, but this rush of power will tire them in the long run. Just because their nose is more sensitive doesn't mean much. You're not going to run into a high level of stench on a daily basis. Same with the ears, you're not going to ear thunderous or extremely high-pitched noises all the time, even in the Jungle. The cultures should dive deeper with those strengths and weaknesses, such as reinforcing a weakness at the cost of something else, like an Elf living in the mountain would be stronger and tougher than the average Elf, but would no longer be as nimble. I know it sounds like an RPG with talks of balance and weaknesses, but as Cliff pointed out, if another race is inherently better than another in virtually all domains, then there is no incentive for that race to even exist. I say that races should be the skeleton of a species and that the culture adds in the meat and flavor.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:25 pm

I have the right to explain myself on this forum and on this thread.

And if you want it's Karbo and only to answer you and only you send it a private message and you won't be be annoyed but you are posting in a public sections so people are free to express themselves and give their opinion on the topic they want. It's what I did so stop whining please.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:50 pm

I wasn't whining, I was trying to say that there must be a drawback to all strength in order to make them interesting.

This is the method I love to build a race:

The general characteristics and the traits of untouched, average members of the race make the skeleton.

The cultural traits which was caused by the evolution of their society, mostly in response to survival, will add complexity and may play a bit with their racial traits.

Lastly is the character, which is the customization of skills and talents which make it a unique member of its race.

Think of it like a funnel - broad, racial traits - the effects the evolution of their society have on a few members of the race - then the personal skills which came to be through the character backstory. Smile

So, if we got to the basic Elf and Neko, which is the ordinary one untouched by evolution from society, we know they are more agile and have better senses, physically stronger than Humans for Nekos and magically adept for Elves. Now, since they have evolved these strengths, what are the points of these two races that didn't catch up and became weaknesses?
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:03 pm

So why are you complaining about my post.

In my previous post, I showed just the physical resistance can be affected by the living condition and is not defined only by the racial feature.

You stated neko are more frail than human about a so-called reason of balancing more in RPG-like system than a plausible or believable one.

It could be true if we see neko emphasize power and speed which make them natural sprinter but it doesn't make them really resistant. Because sprinter muscle their body to move faster but they didn't perform really well to lift heavier load. But Karbo stated neko can lift heavier loads than humans so their skeleton can resist better to the stress of heavier load than human, so they are physically more resistant than human.

About stamina, it depend mostly on your breathing system and heartbeat which allow a better oxygenation of the muscles, humans have the most advanced breathing in animal kingdom, so we have more stamina than any feline. but nekos is not a feline but part feline and part human, so they gain a better breathing than their animal counterpart, it will change many things. And about human's stamina and physical performance in overall depends on mostly on their culture, their civilization and way of life. A human living with constant physical training or in a Spartan way will have better physical performance than a modern human who passed most on this time seat at his office and travelling in car. You want to compare the stamina of a neko in what type of human, the one who trains regularly or the average modern human with the classical western life style.

About elves, in a pure physical way without any magic enhancement of any kind, except good hearing, good vision and their dexterity which make they are very accurate, next to nekos they are weak physically but next to human, in stamina they are at the same level, and in physical resistance, if they live in a life with few physical activities they are not better a modern human they are not better. An elf can perform better than a human where it require precision but most of the time as human they rely on their skill. Until now we are on the racial feature.

You ask a question about does physical strenght make you punch or kick stronger?(this more matter of skills than a racial feature)
The answer is no because when we watch the different system of punching in martial art and combat sport, the weakest punch are the one using the strenght of the arm. In overall punch draw their power by the force generates by the move of the body and the shift of the weight, for kick you add the sense of balance but the muscle strenght play a minor role. To be a good striker, it's not how strong and muscular you are but how good you move with your body. Wink

It's true in some situation the racial feature are in advantage in other time not, if an elf, a neko and a human run a marathon who will win? We can say the neko has disadvantage due to her lower stamina but seriously do humans and elves can run a marathon without a proper training? No, they all have to train. Now they are train we can say the neko will be slightly advantaged because she can make good acceleration but in this kind of competition, are more strategic, there is a particular timing to accelerate and maintain the pace, human and elves will be in the same boat, even if the elf can hear the hearbeat of the human to see where he is exhausted and decide to accelerate he doesn't have more stamina than the human so he will be as tired as fast as the human. What the elf forget humans can have a good pain tolerance with his mental, it can be surprised to see the humans maintain his pace even if he is completely exhausted. So it will depend on how they play their cards

In combat, we start with the fact all have been trained in combat. The nekos will have an advantage in throw, attack speed and dodging, elves precision strike and counter, you can ask what the human can do? Many things, he can still perform joint control, exploitation of the momentum of the opponent, strangulation, hit the pressure point on both of them or aim the vital organs because they have an anatomy closed to human.

Even if elf and neko can show some advantage in some domain in other ones they are not as good as human.

Why your post was aggressive as I showed the difference between a skill and racial feature. Answer only Karbo has the right to answer to your question is stupid and childish as you post in a public forum where anyone on the community can express his/her opinion if you don't like the opinions of other stop starting post like that and send private message directly to Karbo
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:46 pm

Good point, but you are again undermining the need to ask for clarifications to what Nekos and Elves have lost to gain superior agility, senses, strength for Nekos and magic aptitude for Elves by bringing in factors that can modify it, which doesn't bring a legitimate answer, but instead just walk in circles.

All I want to know is if Nekos generally have less endurance than a Human, and while we're at it, if an Elf's fine built implies frailness.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:46 pm

Sean Okotami wrote:
Good point, but you are again undermining the need to ask for clarifications to what Nekos and Elves have lost to gain superior agility, senses, strength for Nekos and magic aptitude for Elves by bringing in factors that can modify it, which doesn't bring a legitimate answer, but instead just walk in circles.

To gain something doesn't involve involve to loose something else.

Sean Okotami wrote:
All I want to know is if Nekos generally have less endurance than a Human, and while we're at it, if an Elf's fine built implies frailness.

You want compare the endurance of neko next to what type of human, a well-trained human in good shape maybe or an average human with the modern life style and doing few physical exercise. No because Human has to train to built their stamina. On this domain both are in the same boat both because breath in the same way.

Do elves' built implies frailness? not necessary.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:35 am

I want to apologize for my outburst. I simply asked for a query, but when I did not obtain the answer that I seeked, I lost control. I hate it when people don't give any real information that could answer the query.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:40 am

I don't see what all the big fuss is about honnestly Rolling Eyes

The fact is the thre races are pretty similar , like it or not, and the variety come mosty with the plenty of groups, tribes, sub-species and such.

And their physical differences are not huge. When I say nekos are stronger, it don't mean superhuman, like they can lift a car and throw it at you or something..
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:48 am

Agreed.

Also while you're here Karbo, what did you think of my idea of nekos being stronger, more agile, etc but having lower endurance?



And a final note, I can foresee this debate getting a bit "heated" if it goes on too long. Nobody wants that.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:53 am

I would still like to know if for their superior senses, agility for nekos and reflexes for Elves, if a physical aspect of their race has weakened considerably. The example I gave a page ago is, if Nekos are part cat, does that mean that they use their speed in short bursts due to a lack of stamina, similar to a real lion?
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:13 am

Sean Okotami wrote:
use their speed in short bursts due to a lack of stamina, similar to a real lion?
That's what I've been proposing for a lot of the thread. In my last post I asked Karbo to confirm or deny it.


Last edited by Anime-Junkie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:39 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Rephrasing)
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:37 am

I guess that would also explain why they prefer to hide than running away: if they run for too long from a Predator, they're as good as dead.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:50 am

[quote="gwadahunter2222"]
Sean Okotami wrote:

You want compare the endurance of neko next to what type of human, a well-trained human in good shape maybe or an average human with the modern life style and doing few physical exercise. No because Human has to train to built their stamina. On this domain both are in the same boat both because breath in the same way.

I would assume in Felarya at least, they'd mainly be the former as the latter would have a tendency to be eaten.

Anyhow mostly what people seem to be arguing about here is the average potential of a given member of a species, and not the actual results which are generally up to the individual.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:56 pm

Oh, another query just happened. While waiting for a confirmation or denial to Nekos having lower endurance and saves it by using momentary bursts of speed and strength, are they also lighter than Humans? The thought occured to me on some D&D guidelines to build a character, such as Humans having a base height and weight, and for every inch you add above that base height, you add 5 lbs to their base weight. Elves have a higher base height and lower base weight and for every inch above that base height, you add 3 lbs to the base weight. So it made me wonder if an average Neko would be lighter or the same weight as an average Human.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:07 pm

They'd probably be heavier due to muscle density.
I've had talks with rcs619 and he holds that nekos have denser muscle mass. This would mean that a neko muscle and a human muscle of the same size would not weigh the same, the neko muscle being heavier.


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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:04 pm

JohnDoe wrote:
Anyhow mostly what people seem to be arguing about here is the average potential of a given member of a species, and not the actual results which are generally up to the individual.


We must also not forget that it isn't just the "average" potential that counts; the standard deviation matters as well.

Lets assume that there is a parameter we want to measure that has a well defined manner of measurement (IE: we can unambiguously turn it into a number). Lets also assume that this parameter varies between members of a group, and that this distribution is roughly "normal" in shape; lots of people are near the average, with few people particularly bad or particularly good at it. For a particular group we can then get two statistical measurements: the average, and the standard deviation. The average is just that, the average, and the standard deviation is a measurement of how far from the average a certain percentage of the population is.

A concrete example: a group of humans have their upper arm lifting strength measured; the average is 100 lbs, with a standard deviation of 30 lbs. If you go look up the definition of a standard deviation, you can see that one standard deviation away from the average contains 68% of the sample population. In other words, in this group of humans, 68% of them have upper arm lifting strength in the range 100 +/- 30 lbs ( 70 lbs to 130 lbs). 95% of them are within two standard deviations (40 lbs to 160 lbs).


Why is this important to us? Consider a second species, with an upper arm lifting strength average of 130, but a standard deviation of 5 lbs. They are, on average, stronger than humans, but there are a significant fraction of humans that are stronger than them.

So it isn't just the average potential that is important; how varied the potential can be is important as well. There are also other considerations, especially among the more civilized races. If you have a large population in a city, it might be worth while to find all your strong and agile folks and use only them to interact with the outside world, leaving the "easy prey" inside the towns and cities as farmers and workers. This would give the appearance to an external observer that your entire group is strong and agile, when that is not the case.

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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:21 am

Anime-Junkie wrote:
They'd probably be heavier due to muscle density.
I've had talks with rcs619 and he holds that nekos have denser muscle mass. This would mean that a neko muscle and a human muscle of the same size would not weight the same, the neko muscle being heavier.
Well, keep in mind that Nekos descend from felines, and I'm likely going to be proven wrong, but I generally picture a cat as lighter.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:51 am

Sean Okotami wrote:
Anime-Junkie wrote:
They'd probably be heavier due to muscle density.
I've had talks with rcs619 and he holds that nekos have denser muscle mass. This would mean that a neko muscle and a human muscle of the same size would not weight the same, the neko muscle being heavier.
Well, keep in mind that Nekos descend from felines, and I'm likely going to be proven wrong, but I generally picture a cat as lighter.
you've never seen what a lion or a tiger weighs... have you?
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:07 am

Are all Nekos based on those? Hmm? And if we use those, are apes and gorillas heavier than those?
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