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Pendragon
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:07 am

Sean's kinda right on this one. That addendum regarding lions and tigers only applies to certain lion nekos. Most of them, though, are based off of other species.

Though there's a chance it varies regarding elves too. I'm sure alot of elves have really light muscle mass depending on the environment they've been raised in.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:01 am

No, not all nekos are.


However, if you want to use the discussion of cats vs apes, large cat predators win without a second glance. The largest predator cats weigh on average 550 lbs. The largest gorilla species on average weigh 440 lbs. The largest known gorilla specimen was reported to weigh 550~600 lbs. The largest of the natural cats (siberian tiger) weighed in at 932 lbs. Unnaturally, the liger is the largest of all since it is not inhibited by its genetics like tigers and lions, weighing in at 1760 lbs. Conversely, the largest house cat (snowball) weighs in at 85.8 lbs with the largest 'small cat' predator (cheetah) weighing in at 140 lbs and the smallest 'great ape' variety weighing in at 100 lbs. Jaguars (largest of the American breeds, third largest of the predator cats) weigh in at 300 lbs, with the puma (one of the smallest 'large cat' predators) weighing in at 150 lbs. After the largest 'great apes', the next sizes down vary from 490 lbs to 350 lbs (mountain, eastern, western gorilla). After this weight falls dramatically to the orangutang at 200 lbs and chimpanzee at 115 lbs.


As stated by Oldman earlier however, diversity applies here. Humans are listed as one of the primary groups of 'great apes'. Our weight range goes from a ridiculous spread of the lightest adult human at 4.7 lbs (who was surprisingly taller than the world's smallest adult human and died of hypothermia, not being crushed) to the heaviest at 1400 lbs. The average weight of a human depends on location and diet, varying from 160 to 190 in the developed countries.


Back to the actual point.


If a neko is generally consuming only small prey (tinies) and having to run from giant predators, we could therefore assume they would be on the lighter side. Nekos get portrayed most often as housecats, catching mice. You don't see too many nekos hunting in packs and taking down large animal kin with bare tooth and claw. Nekos are humanoid and portrayed mostly as such in the general scheme of things, which should make their size generally smaller and lighter. What I'm getting at here is that genetically speaking from an evolutionary standpoint, a neko would both weigh less and have a shorter height than a human on average due to their diet and hunting tactics, relying on stealth and speed to acquire their tiny prey with a cheetah's 'flight don't fight' mentality. However, from their fictional perspective they are almost always shown as being slightly larger and more heavy, with greater power than a human because people apply the 'big cat' concept to something that fits the 'small cat' evolutionary billet.


So in conclusion, it's entirely up to the standpoint of the author and the universe in question, and Karbo has already stated that he doesn't see a major difference between humans, elves, and nekos with the exception of some evolutionary developments and physical alterations. How these would have come about in nature is anyone's guess, since they don't actually make sense when applied from a realistic delineation. Truthfully speaking, the differences between nekos, humans, and elves across all stories have almost always been cultural, using physical characteristics to set them apart and make them easier to identify. Elves are most probably derived from the nordic racial theorem and nekos are just people applying the perception of 'feline grace' to a human. Applying science and reasoning to this goes against what has been developed, so other than for amusement value there isn't anything here to debate.


Last edited by aethernavale on Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Bah to grammar.)
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:08 pm

just like to point out that pound for pound Apes are much stronger than Cats. Their are videos of orangutans wailing on tigers, though I am sure tigers usually win. A tiger is on average 8 times stronger than a human (biased on pulling and carrying capacity) vrs a Gorilla that is at least 27 times stronger. That neko's were some how stronger never made any sense to me, they shouldn't be, cats aren't after all, what cats are is more agile, faster, and have claws... Also just because cats can jump impressively doesn't mean a neko would because they take on a more human leg structure which doesn't support it.

Apes (humans in particular) are endurance powerhouses, they keep performing after others tier out. The reason you don't see it much now days is because were couch potatoes, humans that are fit can literally run other animals until that animal dies, this is in fact one of the oldest forms of hunting used by humans. Their isn't just one reason for this adaption, their are several, bone structure, lungs, skin (more than you think) and muscle types, heart/circulation, brain efficiency , and more lead to this remarkable endurance, just making a cat humanoid would not give it our endurance.

Also Humans are remarkable eaters, humans have one of the most varied diet in the animal kingdom (though not the most varied). We are capable of eating more forms of food, get value out of it, and not be poisoned from it than most other animals. Foods like avocados, tomatoes, nutmeg, macadamia nuts, grapes, onions, GARLIC, chocolate, all are poisonous to most other animals, but not humans. What we aren't are glutions, we cant just eat a mass of food and go a while with out eating again, humans rely on a constant supply of food.

Also compared to many animals (not counting most fish and a few lizards) humans are resistant to shock, we might get hurt, but Apes are surprisingly resilient to damage, we may take it, but we deal with it well. Facing similar amounts of damage to their structures many animals would simply die compared to what a human can recover from.

Now what does this mean, yes, Nekos and Elves can be frailer than humans, have less endurance, ect. its not a big deal. To be honest Elves (and dragons) in many fantasy settings often need knocked back a few (or many) notches. What elves tend to be is a "Almost Perfect" race in may settings, to some people they have to be better than humans in almost every way (ala Tolkien), that they are not sets just fine by me. If elves and neko die from blows that humans could survive and are more effected by poison then I say GOOD! its a weakness, they need them.

A good example of a poorly designed race in a resent story is the Na'vi from Avatar, oh I could go on and on about how bad they are.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:38 pm

I agree with what asaenvolk said.
I've been trying to make the same point about neko endurance vs human endurance for most of the thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:33 am

I agree with the premise, but not the example. Had you picked just about any other cat we would be in agreement. Picking the tiger for your comparison knocks it out of the water in endurance. Tigers have hunting ranges of 400-500 sq km established for life (I will say this is both evolution and interference - though they've always been rovers the interference of humans in natural habitats and the thinning of their food supplies forces them to roam more than they ever have in the past). They are the definition of endurance. Other cats - particularly the small cats but some of the larger ones such as lions - in general have low endurance but high speed (the lion is slightly different, relying on aggression and group tactics to take down prey and thus having one of the lowest stamina/endurances of any cat). Tigers have been seen taking down smaller brown bears for food, so even in strength they are at a high regard - though it should be noted that these studies indicated tigers wouldn't go after a bear >800 lbs. Additionally, it should be noted that in attempting to take down a bear its easy enough for it to go the other way, because the bear does have higher endurance and strength than the cat. Generally speaking an adult male bear will be able to take down the cat due to its higher strength and endurance, though NatGeo has submitted evidence that male browns have been killed by siberians when desperate.


The tiger is actually the proof of the exception to the rule, not the rule itself.


Back to my previous post in regards to this, nekos fit the small cat billet but are often given the large-cat-exception-to-the-rule advantages. People pick the best things of what they like the most from the entirety and give it to the general to make it better than the perceived other choice. Given their predatory styles and the way evolution would have molded them it makes more sense for them to be stealthy, sleek, fast, agile. They would lack endurance and raw strength - my inclusion of the Zagaru tribe is in some part to show the difference between mentalities. An isolated group that hunts big game will take an evolutionary path that leads them to endurance and strength over speed and stealth (though in truth the Zagaru would most aptly be compared to wolves from a nature standpoint). Generally speaking, nekos in Felarya don't hunt the bigger predators of Felarya. They hunt tiny prey and avoid contact to survive, which makes them fit more with the lesser endurance generality.


Also, asaenvolk, where did you get gluttony in this? Just because predators eat a large amount of food in one sitting doesn't make them gluttons - gluttony is the over-indulgence of food to waste. Humans are generally guilty of waste, most natural predators do not - especially when so many of their hunts are unsuccessful (I think I can recall reading that solitary predators have like a 30% success rate compared to the much higher ratios for group preds). A creature that eats a lot in one sitting and goes days or weeks without eating again is not guilty of gluttony.


Overall, I think the general 'accepted' balance criterion when these races are thrown together in the pot is that nekos tend to have high agility and speed/lower stamina and constitution, humans are average/balanced across all traits, and elves have high dexterity and intelligence (usually related to magic in some way)/lower stamina and constitution. I still contend that the majority of differences between these races is cultural, not evolutionary - any significant advantages/disadvantages they claim over the other are more or less just their own talking points.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:04 am

Quote :
I still contend that the majority of differences between these races is cultural

Rebutal: If we're only going to distinguish races by culture, why even have races? Why not have only humans and a ton of cultures?

As for "The exception that proves the rule", shouldn't it be for certain subraces of Nekos?
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:46 am

Sean Okotami wrote:
Quote :
I still contend that the majority of differences between these races is cultural

Rebutal: If we're only going to distinguish races by culture, why even have races? Why not have only humans and a ton of cultures?

As for "The exception that proves the rule", shouldn't it be for certain subraces of Nekos?

Because race and culture are completely different things.

A race is an ethnicity, like white, black, hispanic, arabic, etc. A culture is a group of people united by common beliefs, location, upbringing, etc. Americans and French, for example, both belong to the same race, but their cultures are completely different.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:48 am

You know I mean fantasy races like elves and dwarves, stop averting the question.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:51 am

Sean Okotami wrote:
You know I mean fantasy races like elves and dwarves, stop averting the question.

Those aren't races. Those are species.

Nekos and Humans are different species.

Rosic Nekos, Nekomurans and Wild Neko tribes are all different cultures, but could also be different races, depending on ethnicity.

Remember, it goes: Species --> Culture --> Race, in terms of importance. A species can have a lot of different cultures within it, and different cultures can have many different races. The humans in Negav, for example, belong to the same species and culture, but likely vary wildly in race.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:58 am

I was pointing out that if humanoids like Humans, Nekos and Elves as species for you linguists, have barely any difference in what their strengths and weaknesses are, and their only distinction is culture, then there's no point to make them different species, just make them all the same specie but with a ton of culture differences.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:04 am

My two cents:

Being new to the fantasy stuff, I don't know much about Elves. Going by the Felaryan definition of race and species, my understanding of Elves is that they are just a different species under the Human race. They are distinguished only by their outward appearance; which is usually taller, thinner, more beatiful/handsome *but I won't hold them to that, and have pointy ears.

Nekos have more feline traits but are also members of the Human race, IMO. They don't have enough genetic differences to classify them in their own race.

This is where the Wiki kinda throws me off. I look under Elves, and I see a pic of a giant predator. To me that's no different from a giantess, but then I didn't even know Evles could grow that big. After all the good ideas for races and species I 've seen overlooked on this board, the cannonized races on the Wiki seem like splitting red apples and green apples.

p.s. I like what Asaenvolk is saying.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:15 am

gt500x wrote:
My two cents:

Being new to the fantasy stuff, I don't know much about Elves. Going by the Felaryan definition of race and species, my understanding of Elves is that they are just a different species under the Human race. They are distinguished only by their outward appearance; which is usually taller, thinner, more beatiful/handsome *but I won't hold them to that, and have pointy ears.

Nekos have more feline traits but are also members of the Human race, IMO. They don't have enough genetic differences to classify them in their own race.

This is where the Wiki kinda throws me off. I look under Elves, and I see a pic of a giant predator. To me that's no different from a giantess, but then I didn't even know Evles could grow that big. After all the good ideas for races and species I 've seen overlooked on this board, the cannonized races on the Wiki seem like splitting red apples and green apples.

p.s. I like what Asaenvolk is saying.

Eh, no. Just because they look like humans doesn't mean they are humans. It's pretty obvious they are separate species. If we went for that logic, tauric races would count if they are human from the waist up, am I right?
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:31 am

I see far more similarities between evles and humans than I do between centaurs and humans. Your comment is too off base for me to address in further detail.

No, I take that back.. That was a bit harsh.

I'll simply say, that in my opinion there is just too much of a physical difference to say the taurs are part of the human race, or species (now I'm getting confused).
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:48 am

gt500x wrote:
I see far more similarities between evles and humans than I do between centaurs and humans. Your comment is too off base for me to address in further detail.

No, I take that back.. That was a bit harsh.

I'll simply say, that in my opinion there is just too much of a physical difference to say the taurs are part of the human race, or species (now I'm getting confused).

By that logic, Fairies are humans.

Some fantasy worlds do that, where all the different groups are offshoots of humans. That's why calling Elves and Dwarves different "races" in other fantasy settings would work.

But they all assume a closed system, which Felarya is not.

All of the hybrid species are different species. Keep in mind, nekos, inu and the like aren't just lumped in with humans. They are hybrid predators, just like the giant ones.

Callng the different species humanoid is fair, since they do share a resemblance, but they are not humans. All the different species have their own abilities and strengths, subtle or obvious, that seperate them from humans.

This is something a lot of people tend to forget or ignore. The hybrids, and more specifically the predatory ones, are not human. They look human, and to a degree think similarly on some ways, but they are not. They operate on stronger, more powerful instincts and senses, and a different set of rules and morals. They are wild animals for the most part (semi-domesticated in the cases of some nekos and inu) that happen to be sentient. People tend to forget the wild part.

(EDIT: Yes, there are giant elves too. Most races have giant and human-sized sub-species within them. Harpies are a good example. Rock Harpies are huge, 90ft tall on average...while Seagull Harpies are only human-sized. Nekos and Inu are entirely human-sized though, like how Neera (mouse people) are all tiny)
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:30 pm

Thanks for the break down. I understand the logic of this world a little more now. However, the only knowledge I have of Nekos is what I see from Thas Voidfingers, and he doesn't seem very wild. This is sorta making it harder to distinguish the species' beyond tails, ears, and maybe even claws.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:59 pm

gt500x wrote:
Thanks for the break down. I understand the logic of this world a little more now. However, the only knowledge I have of Nekos is what I see from Thas Voidfingers, and he doesn't seem very wild. This is sorta making it harder to distinguish the species' beyond tails, ears, and maybe even claws.
It's not quite fair judging an entire species based on a single character. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:03 pm

I only used Tigers for referring to strength not endurance, they are one of the stronger cats, but not all that physically strong compared to apes. Your right in that Tigers have more endurance than most other cat, but while their hunting ranges are vast it takes them a long time to cover it all. They have to have such a huge hunting ranges because of the low amounts of food in it.

Now as for race, culture and species. I really doubt I that natural evolution had much of ANYTHING to do with it, what happened to Anna in one way or another is probably what happened. Magical transmutation undoubtedly had a huge part in the origin of several Felaryan Species and not normal evolution. So many Felaryan races would not have evolved natural, they were more likely the effects of chaotic magic upon a few life forms. For that matter sense everything seams to be able to interbreed are things REALLY separate species? To be honest though again this is probably more an effect of magic than genetics, which shouldn't be able to work in the first place. So mixing races is probably more a mixing of platonic ideals, the magic then shifts the genetic markers into a working format.

Also RCS, about instincts, while it is considered part of Felarya so I wouldn't change it, but according to what we have been able to determine with science, humans have lots of and very strong instincts! The difference is that the human mind is more flexible and sentient, this means that humans are better able to shape their minds and ignore their instinct to kill and eat something for its meat. The other races are CLEARLY part human, so they would retain some of this natural elasticity, but hey maby they don't have as much, sticking them in more set patterns than humans, maby at lest a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:07 pm

I'm pretty sure you can have giant nekos, but are just very rare.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:27 pm

timing2 wrote:
gt500x wrote:
Thanks for the break down. I understand the logic of this world a little more now. However, the only knowledge I have of Nekos is what I see from Thas Voidfingers, and he doesn't seem very wild. This is sorta making it harder to distinguish the species' beyond tails, ears, and maybe even claws.
It's not quite fair judging an entire species based on a single character. Wink

If you met only one tiger and found that it was very kind and gentle, with no prior knowledge of tigers, having a good experience. Then one day met another tiger, with only one experience with said species, how would you approach that new tiger? As an enemy? I don't think so. Our experiences shape our views of the world, fair or not. This is part of our psychological conditioning.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:16 pm

gt500x wrote:
Thanks for the break down. I understand the logic of this world a little more now. However, the only knowledge I have of Nekos is what I see from Thas Voidfingers, and he doesn't seem very wild. This is sorta making it harder to distinguish the species' beyond tails, ears, and maybe even claws.

Remember the situation with nekos in Negav. Many Negavians do not trust them because they are not human, and sometimes do not treat them that well.

Voidfingers is a battlemage in the Isolon Fist, the private army of the Magiocrats. It is very likely that he was only chosen at first because of his magical skill, and likely DID face a good deal of racisim and predjudice early on. Its only natural that Nekos who live in, or around Negav would try to "humanize" themselves more, and act in a more human manner, to try and fit in better.

That is what I meant by semi-domesticated with some nekos and inu. When you live around humans long enough, especialy a large number of humans who aren't totally fond of you, its only natural that you would try to do what you can to counteract that. Altering your mannurisms, dress, and so on are a logical first step.

As for Asa's view on instincts: Keep in mind, a lot of our abandonment of baser instincts is because of civilization and how we currently live.

These are people living in the middle of an obscenely dangerous jungle, full of things that could bite, tear at them or poison them. I imagine instincts help them keep alive. Im not saying they HAVE to obey their instincts no matter what, that is clealry not the case. Im just saying that they are more in tune with theirs, and used ot relying on them more often to survive.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:20 pm

Anna's event was stated to be a rare one, and potentially involves the interference of a guardian, accidental or not. Given the vast amount of creatures in the dimension, I'm gonna go with no on evolution not having a role to play. Felarya is the scientific equivalent to species disruption, where you introduce new animals from one habitat into another and chaos ensues. Those that find ways to survive forgo extinction. Evolution definitely plays a role.


The reason I define the differences as primarily cultural is due to the very balance you're harping on. Yes, there are nekos that prove to be exceptions to the rule - that was something debated a few pages back, which I might add you were knocking down anyway for wishing to have a general synopsis. How much of a difference do you really want? The median of all three races - humans, nekos, and elves - are going to be remarkably similar. If you seek to define generalities, you may as well attack it from a very basic level. My opinion on the matter is that if you pulled the average units of each, putting them through the exact same tests, without allowing for training, you're going to get the same results overall. So what if the average human can run for 5 mins longer than an elf or the elf demonstrate better visual acuity by reading three lines down from the human? Yes, you will have the solo elf who can put Robin Hood and his entire band of merry men to shame and the human that can run on and on and on and on and on and on and on. They are freaks, not the norm, and generally have training and experience and evolution to back their status up. A group of freaks does not a status quo make.


Yes, each particular race will have its subsets that are capable of certain things that other races or even other subsets will not be capable of. However, once again this was a topic already brought up earlier - standard deviation - and at the time was deferred as not the intent of this discussion. Indeed, the original point was to provide distinction between three very similar races - something that sounds suspiciously like defining standard deviation but yet not apparently standard deviation.


This is where culture matters. The three races will be individually raised according to their cultures ideals, which by means of their survival will further propagate the mentality others have of them. Yes, genetic makeup and physical factors will play a role - and in the case of abnormalities, disease, dysfunction and disfigurement will even greatly change the ability of an individual despite the background. That being said, there is a social experiment being conducted in Europe where children are raised without identifying social norms or allowing external influences to change their perceptions. As it turns out, generally speaking, a male and female of the human race raised on a blank template tend to be remarkably similar and when given the exact same encounters and instruction will develop to be able to perform in very similar ways. The differences are minor when you remove the external elements of tradition, culture, and biased instruction. Form and function become the only variance, and this is a static element - a girl is a girl and a guy is a guy, and a neko is a neko and a hume a hume and etc. There will be some things the other is capable of that the other is not, but the average member of both sides is capable of performing a given set of tasks within a defined band that varies only slightly.


However, what I'm reading from this now is that you want something defined to the point of "I can punch this average human and wind him, but if I punched this average elf the exact same way I'm going to fracture ribs." If this is what you seek then just do it - but I don't think you're going to get support for it from any majority. You're really just arguing for debate's sake at that point, particularly after you've already been told by Karbo that the differences are minor which is why the three races are similarly described leading us back once again to the original question and my own derision on the subject of why its needed. From a science standpoint the above comparison is just biased conjecture, and from a literary standpoint its extremely constraining. I mean, realistically, how many obese people do you expect Felarya to have for example? Those that don't 'make the cut' are going to be food or will hide in a city like Negav or simply leave, if able. I further see this analogy as if taking a human that has lived his entire life in zero-g, to one in an Earthlike gravity, to another living on a heavy gravity world - and putting all three of them in a cage match at standard gravity. And then claiming that environmental constraints had nothing to do with it when the fight ends.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:29 pm

I repeat: What's the point of making them different species if they're nothing but humans called a different way?
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:03 pm

It does sorta reek of someone's personal preference to have it that way (being completely seperate races). Whatever, I'll abide by the rules of the world. I'm trying to let go of my previous ideas that humans, nekos, and elves were like green apples, red apples, and apples of a slightly different shade of either color.



Last edited by gt500x on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:19 pm

Sean Okotami wrote:
I repeat: What's the point of making them different species if they're nothing but humans called a different way?

Because they ARE different species.

Its like species in real life. Look at different species of say, Cobra. They aren't that different. All are highly venemous and have a hood on their neck. The only real differences are in location, coloration, size, and a couple species can spit their venom.

Humans, Nekos and Elves are only similar in form. They each do have their own individual strengths and weaknesses to make them different. This isn't a videogame, there don't have to be dramatically different, strict classes and species. Subtle differences are still differences.
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PostSubject: Re: Elves VS Nekos   Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:27 pm

No, from Aether's reasoning, they're humans but with a different "skin" and name. I can get subtle difference, I'm just restating Aether's statement summed up. My point of view: If they're not humans, make sure they are NOT humans and that includes capabilities, which they model part of their culture around and breed different races out of that.
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