General Q and A

Karbo wrote:

I'm not sure what I told you exactly but to me a harmful touch, life drain etc.. doesn't belongs to necromancy but more to dark magic in general.
By necromancy I mean the action ( raising dead ), not a specific school of magic ala D&d.

Thanks everyone! This clears up a lot of the concerns I had considering blacker magics. I am still curious about the Lich conundrum, but for now I have most of the answers I was looking for.

Karbo wrote:

Sean Okotami wrote:

@Cliff: We have been through this, but cemented terms for magic is not a good idea. Plus, when I spoke to Karbo, he never really thought of Necromancy (whose original meaning would be divining the future by asking the dead) would be restricted to only raising the dead and controlling them. That works fine, but the thing is, some people prefer to envision bigger than "animate a skeleton as your servant" and see it as the magic of death itself, which can range include such thing as death spells, life draining, etc. etc. Again, not exactly against that Karbo views Necromancy as "magic that make the dead walk", but just that the term for the "no resurrection" clause is a bit too restrictive.

I'm not sure what I told you exactly but to me a harmful touch, life drain etc.. doesn't belongs to necromancy but more to dark magic in general.
By necromancy I mean the action ( raising dead ), not a specific school of magic ala D&d.

Not everyone sees it like that.

That's the definition that we're using in Felarya.
Different people and different fantasy universes often use different definitions.

Maybe, but people from different universes come to Felarya, so by that logic, they'd use their own definition.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Maybe, but people from different universes come to Felarya, so by that logic, they'd use their own definition.

All those different universes are still within the Felarya multi-verse setting, and would still be subject to some of the same rules.

The Felarya setting is not just Felarya, it is all the worlds within the multi-verse that are connected to it too.The setting has its own rules, it doesn't bend to the rules of other settings.

But you're really just arguing semantics. Could a civiliation lump in all dark magic as necromancy? Sure. But as far as Felarya is concerned, necromancy is strictly raising or controlling the dead. All the rest are just curses, illusions and black magic. Different worlds are going to have their own terminology, we're just defining what IS necromacny as far as the dimensional plane of Felarya is concerned, since necromancy does not work there.

Point is: If you want to create that Multiverse feel, you gotta have casters from different universes use their own terms. That's my take on it and I am not going to change it.

Okay, so Felarya 'Necromancy' is "raising and/or controlling the dead." I have this filed and acknowledged. Now how would this effect a Lich's reformation? As mentioned before, when the body is destroyed (via ingestion, crushing, shooting, blasting, exploding, etc) the soul of the Lich returns to their phylactery (soul anchor). Now say the phylactery is in Felarya as well so we don't need to worry about transplanar soul travel and whatnot. Would a Lich then reform after a few days as the phylactery does what it is supposed to do, or would something else occur?

EDIT: I think I answered my own question after rereading the wiki more carefully, but answers are still welcome for clarification purposes. I'll post what I read and my conclusions though.

Quote :

"For reasons unknown, any spell involving meddling with the afterlife and calling forth a soul to inhabit a body (such as resurrection, or raising the dead) doesn't work on Felarya. A wandering spirit can still decide to possess a body on its own, or be bound to an object or a golem body, but recalling the soul from afterlife and forcing it in any way just won't work."

Basically what this means is that bringing a soul from 'beyond the veil' (Heaven/Hell/Limbo/The Afterlife/That-Big-Sandbox-In-The-Sky/Whatever), is a nono. With a Lich though, the soul never left the material plane, and is in fact anchored to its phylactery. As such it could be classified as a wandering spirit of sorts, except it has a phylactery which will recreate a body for it within a few days time. Basically, that answers my own above question.



This in turn has brought a new question though. The act of animating the dead is just that. Animating the dead. It in no way deals with binding souls or what have you. In fact the act of animating a corpse is much like creating a golem, only instead of it being made of clay or some other material, it is composed of flesh, bone, and sinew. Skeletons, zombies, and the other run-of-the-mill Lesser Undead are all mindless automatons which are basically grotesque golems. So my point then, whilst Necromancy in Felarya terms cannot retrieve the souls of the departed, can it animate their leftovers? *throws match onto tinderbox* DEBATE!

Heh, magic, particularly black magic, is one of my favorite subjects.

In terms of necromancy, in Felarya it is not viable (that I know of, so somebody please correct me if I get this wrong) to 1. recall a soul, in any form, from death, 2. replace a soul into a dead body, 3. reanimate a corpse (zombie, skeleton, ect.)

Basically, all you can do is contact the dead and talk to them. If it has died, you can't mess with it. I suppose you could "reanimate" something using a trick I call "Necrotic Puppetry", but that isn't necromancy, in reality. It's when you put a machine set or biotic propulsion into/onto the dead body and it is physically moved about by the system. The thing is dead, and the system has to be alive and present throughout the body to move it (ie, put remote-controlled skeletal system into a body and move it like that, a pervasive parasite with tendrils threaded through the body to make it move, ect.) That would be the only viable way for a dead body to move around, and it's not necromancy, as stated.

So, in essence, "a body can't self-propel", "die once, you're dead forever", and "contact, yes; recall, no"

Even the Lesser Undead can't be raised in Felarya. Even if there is no binding, ect., something that is dead is simply not able to be made into an autonomous system. If you want a skeleton or corpse to get up and move, you're going to have to physically/psychically/magically pick it up, or use Necrotic Puppetry.

MrNobody13 wrote:

Heh, magic, particularly black magic, is one of my favorite subjects.

In terms of necromancy, in Felarya it is not viable (that I know of, so somebody please correct me if I get this wrong) to 1. recall a soul, in any form, from death, 2. replace a soul into a dead body, 3. reanimate a corpse (zombie, skeleton, ect.)

Basically, all you can do is contact the dead and talk to them. If it has died, you can't mess with it. I suppose you could "reanimate" something using a trick I call "Necrotic Puppetry", but that isn't necromancy, in reality. It's when you put a machine set or biotic propulsion into/onto the dead body and it is physically moved about by the system. The thing is dead, and the system has to be alive and present throughout the body to move it (ie, put remote-controlled skeletal system into a body and move it like that, a pervasive parasite with tendrils threaded through the body to make it move, ect.) That would be the only viable way for a dead body to move around, and it's not necromancy, as stated.

So, in essence, "a body can't self-propel", "die once, you're dead forever", and "contact, yes; recall, no"

Even the Lesser Undead can't be raised in Felarya. Even if there is no binding, ect., something that is dead is simply not able to be made into an autonomous system. If you want a skeleton or corpse to get up and move, you're going to have to physically/psychically/magically pick it up, or use Necrotic Puppetry.

Sort of accurate. There happens to be a sect of elves that can reanimate after death - once. Also, they reanimate in the same place they died so it has limited uses.

Yes, but I assumed they were a kind of exception to the rule and didn't include them.

They're phantom elves, and they're not a sect, they're a race of elves that live in Sunfall Thicket.

Sean Okotami wrote:

They're phantom elves, and they're not a sect, they're a race of elves that live in Sunfall Thicket.

If you're going to go to the trouble of attempting a correction, at least be correct. In your acknowledgment they would be a subspecies, not a race. Race is a horribly misused word, stemming from the fact that there is only one species of human and thus people greatly confuse the issue. Race is not a good scientific descriptive (if it is one at all, and I am of the group that believes it not to be, however that is another debate in and of itself), and in truth is close to sect in its distinction - though historically speaking sect was more tied with religion (it has since expanded to include more). I used sect incorrectly due to the nature of the beast and the understanding I had of them, the wiki specifically and accurately calls them out as a species.



At any rate, this is sidebarring. The current discussion was about magic and necromancy - though overall, I will agree that placing limitation on it or attempting to describe magic with rigor will only result in irritation. Karbo's point seems to be maintaining the base, which he has always held - to my knowledge. I think too many people are reading into the necromancy thing based on what they know of magic from other arenas - like someone that doesn't learn a language to understand it, merely to translate it.

I see people here enjoy finding ways to subvert the rules Karbo and several others put into place.

Why do people have such a desire to see magic that messes with souls and all that nonsense? Can't we just let dead people lie? I'm sure they don't need you people constantly ringing a black magic powered alarm clock in their faces.

Pendragon wrote:

I see people here enjoy finding ways to subvert the rules Karbo and several others put into place.

How long have we had Ghosts and Vampires, without real complaint? We've also had Golems and possessions (albeit with things like Succubi and Angels instead of Elementals or Ghosts, though I'm sure those two in stories wouldn't surprise anyone if enacted by the creature instead of a mage) for a bit. Then we've had Elves that can auto-revive once...

The only thing I could possibly be "subverted" would be a rise in the number of "dark" magic use, since people are starting to use the "Raise the dead in various ways" necromancy definition instead of "Larloch's Minor Drain" necromancy definition.

Okay, well in response to people talking about vampirism and necromancy I quote asaenvolk as a reminder.

asaenvolk wrote:

Necromancy its a tricky subject, in some cultures what was considered necromancy was a bit more narrow than in others, not every one had the same concepts of what was possible with magic in the real world. Some early Greek concepts for example just allowed you to commune with the undead, not even raise them as undead or back to life within the bounds of what would be considered necromancy. On the OTHER hand even OLDER ideas of what was essentially necromancy concepts in China or India (or younger) Nordic it included a whole lot more than just communing with the dead or raising them.

Many European concepts of necromancy go all the way back to Salomon and probably a whole lot earlier, the earliest concepts mostly concerned with communing, though the idea of using it to raise people into a semblance of life was later added, but then again the earliest terms for necromancy that was recognized was "νεκρομαντεία - nekromantía" which more or less meant "dead proficiency". Over time these terms changed in meaning and though what Necromancy meant changed as well.

Necromancy basically means "Dead magic", so any form of magic that involves death as a concept is Necromancy, be it draining life, raiseing the dead, talking to the dead, making vampires or zombies, ALL are necromancy. If you want to say that you can't raise the dead or make undead then it should be specified and not use a catch all phrase like Necromancy.

Now Vamperism, at least the version that we mostly think of that is descended from Romanian vampires, they were much more like ghouls that drank blood than what we think of them today. As for what I mean by ghoul, watch a modern zombie movie and remove the insane infection rate and add a bit more cunning. They were shambling corpses that were hard to kill and had weird weaknesses. The modern concept of vampires came about via Bram Stoker who mixed the vampire myths with the then more popular succubus myths.

I believe necromancy and/or the dark arts could be debated in another thread if you guys really want to discuss it.

Its kind of dragging this Q & A thread off its purpose ^^;

I'm gonna throw another question about phantom elves.

We know they live in one of the "dark zones" of Felarya like Evernight, and their dark zone, Sunfall Thicket, has ambient magic. Do phantom elves develop the ability to see in absence of light and let's say they move from low light to normal light somewhat abruptly, would they be blinded and dazzled for a little while?

What about raising the dead through the alteration of time....

Wasn't something like this done to Anna?

Which opens up a whole new can of worms.... is time magic and time travel permitted in Felarya?

That was more like Reality Warping than anything.

Sean is right, it was reality warping. Possibly a bit of time manipulation too.

As for time travel, just look at the Akaptor desert.

Grave wrote:

What about raising the dead through the alteration of time....

Wasn't something like this done to Anna?

Which opens up a whole new can of worms.... is time magic and time travel permitted in Felarya?

I don't think Anna actually died. I think she got changed right as the digestion was starting. The last we see of her in that comic is where her clothes are starting to dissolve. I think all she got was a decent stinging sensation out of it, and nightmare fuel for years to come (I really do think she'd have nightmares about it sometimes. That kind of thing is just horrific).

Besides, what happened to Anna was some wierd bend in space and time. The only person in Felarya that could probably come close to do that is Notys, and she plays by a different set of rules than everyone else. No mage is going to be able to bend reality that way. Fairies come the next closest, with their scale magic...but even then, it's effects are very limited, and only Fairies can do it. So yeah, with Anna it was either some very random fluke...or Notys was passing somewhere near by (Her mere prescense can destabilize space and time near her. Whole regions have gotten completely shifted and changed just by her passing by).

The only form of time travel permitted in Felarya is in the Akaptor Desert, and even then, only in certain unstable parts of it. Time travel is just as out of reach for magic as it is for science. For good reason too, since time travel almost always causes more problems than it solves.

rcs619 wrote:

Grave wrote:

What about raising the dead through the alteration of time....

Wasn't something like this done to Anna?

Which opens up a whole new can of worms.... is time magic and time travel permitted in Felarya?

Besides, what happened to Anna was some wierd bend in space and time.

If you look at the Minkowski Space model of spacetime, time can be looked at as a dimension, or direction, just like the three dimensions which make up visible space. In fact, the passage of time could be considered a sixth sense, since even blind and/or deaf people can still mark time.

Now, in my opinion, Felarya is situated at a position where spacetime is somewhat... warped. Or, perhaps Felarya isn't one single locus, instead existing as several loci that are linked by imperceptible "folds" in spacetime. This overlaps with Eiinstein's theories on gravity, in which matter creates a "dent" in spacetime relative to its mass. When two "dents" come close together, a "tunnel" may be formed, destroying most matter but perhaps transitioning some as well. Warp portals and teleportation could be achieved by creating minuscule "tunnels" in spacetime using similar mechanics.

I know, it's disorganized right now (I've been meaning to clean up the entire theory and put it on here), but I keep procrastinating. An older version of my theory, which is still mostly the same, is here. The main problem is that I think I didn't do the best job of explaining it back when I was seventeen.

The point I'm trying to make is that spacetime overlapped upon itself, effectively undoing the previous event. The "turned into a naga" part... well, that's harder to explain.

In the comic though I got the impression it was trying to show that Anna had been totally digested.

But, regardless, Notys then stepped in and gave reality a beating. Does this count as necromancy? I don't know. Seems more like editing of reality.

Notys punched the walls of reality because she lost a bet against Trejal.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

rcs619 wrote:

Grave wrote:

What about raising the dead through the alteration of time....

Wasn't something like this done to Anna?

Which opens up a whole new can of worms.... is time magic and time travel permitted in Felarya?

Besides, what happened to Anna was some wierd bend in space and time.

The point I'm trying to make is that spacetime overlapped upon itself, effectively undoing the previous event. The "turned into a naga" part... well, that's harder to explain.

I always assumed it was because of her close proximity to Crisis. Really there are two possibilities, I think...depending on what really happened.

!: Anna didn't die: The space-time anomaly happened before Anna actually died. She experienced some pain and some nightmare fuel, but didn't actually get digested. During the space-time reversal, her own genetics got jumbled up with Crisis because she was in such close proximity to her. Kind of similar to how the scientist in "The Fly" got his DNA mixed with that of a house fly. This is potentially supported by the fact that, one, Anna is EXACTLY the same height as Crisis...and two, her tail is a shade of blue, as is Crisis' tail.

2: Anna did die: This possibility assumes that the space-time anomaly happened some time after Anna was eaten... and she had already died, been digested, and partially absorbed into Crisis' body when it happened. The space-time anomaly reversed this, and in reconstructing Anna's body, incorporated elements of Crisis' DNA by mistake, resulting in a naga body that is exactly the same height as Crisis and has a tail that is a shade of blue.

Either way, I don't imagine Anna would know. She would have felt stinging and pain, and then passed out. She would have no way of knowing if she actually died or not.

Quote :

But, regardless, Notys then stepped in and gave reality a beating. Does this count as necromancy? I don't know. Seems more like editing of reality.

I don't think it would. The space-time anomaly didn't actually raise the dead, it just altered the timeline to where Anna was never eaten in the first place, and is now a naga for some reason.

I doubt Notys did it on purpose either. She probably wouldn't care about a single human. I see three possibilities as to why it happened at all.

1: Comeplete, random chance: Notys wasn't involved, and it was just a freak space-time anomaly. Anna's official bio states that this makes her one of the luckiest indiividuals in the history of the universe.

2: Notys was indirectly involved: Notys is a living space-time anomaly. It is canon that whenever she passed through somewhere, wierd things always occur in her wake, and there are plenty of rumors of entire regions, islands and so on that have been completely changed or shifted around just from her getting close to them as she passes by.

3: Notys was directly involved: I see this as the least likely, since I really doubt she would care enough to help. The only reason I could see is that, maybe she thought it would be funny, and did it just to see what would happen. It has been stated that Notys thinks differently than a creature from our plane of existance, so it is likely that her sense of humor is quite different as well.