Magic in use

So, there I was, working on the FOOD guys, trying to make their survival ever more believable (though it seems all I'm accomplishing is keeping karbo's thoughts well fed...), and as it turns out, I've gotten myself in quite the pickle here. Well, now, here's the thing. You all know I'm a shifty, violent wretch, and the devil knows his own, so the fights don't trouble me much- the problem now is, I feel I haven't given magic so far a place at all, and it deserves one. I've misused a couple things in it, too- despite Karbo's correction that predator sense isn't an auto-trump-it-all, I've been treating it as such all the time. It's high time I start messing with this stuff too.

In keeping to relatively humble resources, as usual for F.O.O.D., I've gotta ask now how much magic would be available if we were to still call it "relatively humble resources" with a straight face. On the other hand, predators like (or unlike) Vivian are magical... I don't know if we should call them 'powerhouses', but if they're going to have the upper hand, they better have it there too, it could be pretty silly otherwise. I dislike as much as the next those overly exaggerated femdom fantasies THAT GUY WRITES, I AM IS MUST DESTROY! Thankfully he hasn't found Felarya, or maybe he's found it and just isn't interested (I hope the second, because I know he knows at least three people who know this place), but just for the sake of preparedness we should be ready to assume the worst in any case. About the predators, I mean. Not about the guy.

So, basically, I need to know what would you call "relatively humble resources" where magic is concerned. What you wouldn't be too surprised at the average adventurer -or hired spellblade- having at his beck and call. You know, like Fire-1, Magic Missile, 1-mote detection rote, Hikari-o, or whatever. Also, what kind of magic should we be wary of predators having at their beck and call- considering that a predator's main weakness is that there's only one of it, so it can have a lot more oomph than anyone else (also, in the general mood for Felarya, predators have the upper hand anywhere it can be called "power" with a straight face).

Personally, I can't think of any magic I would consider relatively humble, but that's mainly because I generally consider magic to be flashy. If not, why bother?

On the other hand, I suppose predators must have the innate ability to shrug off nonmagical weapons up to a certain level of power, which'd explain why is it they haven't all been gunned down yet. However, I try not to work with that; that's only a preconception I've inherited from my D&D days which I'm trying to get rid of. So you don't need to say it again, Junkie, if you hadn't noticed, we all knew Felarya wasn't D&D before joining. Despite the number of things Karbo liked so much he simply couldn't do without. Like putting nine circles in Hell and calling one of them Acheron [so we know it wasn't off La Divina Comedia], or the Negative Plane, or any of those details that aren't as obvious as dridders. They're excusable, though, because Chris Avellone's "Planescape: Torment" was just THAT awe-friggin'-some... and maybe because spiders are sexy.

More seriously, on the predator side, where you've got all the sheer power you can shake the sexy tree at, there's... well, the wiki points out:
Vivian can melt your brains, or shoot rays at you.
Namesta can rip your head off with 50-foot vines.
Subeta has that found-you-trump-all we used to think predator sense was.
Saya... won't go there.
Rin can freeze large amounts of stuff.
Mina's illusions are notable.
Mennysan is an average spellcaster (making us wonder what's Karbo meant by that... -.-).
Lily's got buffs and debuffs strong enough to have plot importance.
Kiki is good at burminating stuff, or with raw magic if you've read it through.
Katrika's magic is more oriented to changing her body... just like... yoouuuUUAUGH! KIIEEELLL YOUUU! I WILL KIIEEELL YOU! YOU WILL DIIEEIEIEE! Ahem... Katrika's magic isn't an immediate threat.
Kallisti should seriously trump anything.
Kahla's been using nothing but illusions. Oh, and she melted your brain. Through your penis.
Iridan uses magic to move metal.
Garnet also uses magic to move stone and ground.
Fiona can huff and puff.
Endymion's not a threat.
Drayla can make it rain or hide herself.
Aya, which surprised me, can, when written by Gwadahunter2222, take a rocket launcher to the face (in her defense, it was in her super-hungry-power state).
Alvar makes tonorions cry. I'll cry for the tonorions who can't cry themselves.

I guess I'll divide the conditions to respond to in some groups:
-Enforced hostile environments (when Namesta, Rin, Iridan, Garnet, Kiki or similars turn the world against you, whether by animating everything there is, or by setting it on fire with you in it). Those are VERY easily the most dangerous; numbers don't do SQUAT in those cases, because you can't ever possibly outnumber everything, and you are ALL surrounded from ALL damn sides, even up and down. There is no logical response outside of the realms of magic that I can foresee at the time. And countering this feels like too much, maybe it's not meant to be countered, maybe this is where we were supposed to draw the line that says "if your characters can get out of this, maybe you should consider making up your own world?".
-Illusions (When Vivian, Subeta, Mina, or just about anybody starts messing with what's real and what isn't). About as dangerous as enforced hostile environments, they can easily solicit an incorrect response from even the best trained group and lead it completely to its demise. Assumptions are dangerous.
-Mandatory subjugation (when Vivian or Kahla just give you the game over screen. Game over sequence's worth it though). Their danger can't be rated. If this condition is encountered, pray to Minalca that not everyone can be affected at the same time.
-Subversions of usual constants (when Aya takes rockets to the face and survives, or Lily starts zipping around like she had a hundred coffees). Danger varies. As long as you weren't counting on any superiorities against them, you should be able to make do.
-Exotic long-range ordinance (When Vivian shoots rays, Kiki opens fire, Rin throws ice or Fiona tries to huff and puff. Ain't that just cute?). Least dangerous! Treat just like any death ray of doom!

Long story short- what would you expect of a mage you'd call basic yet effective/effective yet basic, with a straight face? Feel free to discuss what you consider an advanced mage capable of, how much magical power does a predator need to stay an interesting foe/character/obstacle/pred, or where is it Ramtov and Thas stand in the power scales.

Wooo, a big, meaty, in-depth topic to discuss

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I've misused a couple things in it, too- despite Karbo's correction that predator sense isn't an auto-trump-it-all, I've been treating it as such all the time. It's high time I start messing with this stuff too.

Its also important to remember that only a smal handful of predator species even have that skill. With Nagas, it is sort of the magical equivalent of a snake's heat sense...and with Fairies, it is likely because they have an extremely sensitive magical field anyways. It could be related to their antenna/horns as well, which would give a reason for them to even have them.

But yeah, its hardly 100% accurate. It just gives the pred a clue that "hey, there's something hiding in this general area." Skilled mages can even suppress their own magical fields to mask themselves from it, at least partially. No worries if you've misused it in the past though, we've all done stuff like that ^^ Just gotta remember in future stories and such.

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So, basically, I need to know what would you call "relatively humble resources" where magic is concerned. What you wouldn't be too surprised at the average adventurer -or hired spellblade- having at his beck and call. You know, like Fire-1, Magic Missile, 1-mote detection rote, Hikari-o, or whatever.

I think this would vary a lot. Magic, much like a martial art, takes time to train and hone. Now, the abundance of magic in Felarya would make this a bit easier, but it would still take practice. I could see small-time magic schools/dojos/etc scattered around Negav. Probably kind of a hidden thing, since the Magiocrats aren't exactly fond of rogue mages running loose. It really shouldn't be hard to learn the simple stuff. Fireballs, lightning bolts, ice shards, simple geomancy, magical shields and so on. Maybe even simple enchantments or bio-magics that temporarily enhance endurance, speed or strength.

The trick would be finding your affinity in the first place. If we assume humans work on the same rules as preds, then each person would have one or two types of magic they are naturally drawn towards, that are easier for them to learn than other types.

As for the potency of said magic...I don't think we can expect anything too jaw dropping from a magical newbie. Enough for self-defense against a human-sized creature, or a large animal like a bear maybe...but not enough to take on some of Felarya's bigger residents in a face-to-face fight.

Of course, with the right natural talent, and proper training, quite a bit is possible. We know from the manga that Isolon Fist battlemages, when working in tandem, can hold their own with a giant predator. Considering that the various arch-mages, and the Magiocrats themselves have centuries of training and practice...well, I wouldn't be suprised if a Magiocrat in full-on combat mode could even take down a full-sized predator in the right circumstances.

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On the other hand, I suppose predators must have the innate ability to shrug off nonmagical weapons up to a certain level of power, which'd explain why is it they haven't all been gunned down yet.

Nope.

If a pred shrugs off military-grade hardware without any explanation, that is because of bad writing. The current weapon consensus is roughly this:

- Melee weapons (non-magical): ...Seriously dude, what the hell is wrong with you? RUUUUUUUUN!
- Magical weapons: In the hands of a skilled mage, these could be pretty powerful.
- Pistols: Useless against anything much larger than a humans. Make good self-defense weapons in some of the rougher areas both inside and outside of Negav though.
- Shotguns: Once again, really only effective against humans and medium-sized animals. Primarily for anti-human defense, or hunting game.
- Hunting rifles/Sniper rifles: Depending on the type of round, this could cause a giant pred some pain if put in a sensitive location. The low rate of fire makes them completely impractical for a real anti-pred defense though. Main use would be hunting game or dealing with medium-large wild animals.
- Assault rifles: Now you are getting into a weapon class that can cause some pain. While 5.56mm assault rifles likely won't be all that impressive, a fully automatic 7.62mm assault rifle (such as an AK-47, for example), would get some penetration. It would not be lethal, but it would hurt, and possible make a pred go search for prey that isn't as much of a hassle.
- Light Machineguns: A step up from an assault rifle, these would be extremely painful, but likely still non-lethal. They are a bit clunky though, so that would need to be taken into consideration.
- 50-caliber weaponry: Be it machinegun or rifle, 50-caliber firearms would have serious penetrating power and a potentially lethal punch to a predator if aimed right. A 50-caliber machinegun would likely kill a predator with a well-aimed burst. These are large weapons though, and would need to be mounted somewhere.
- Anti-armor explosives: Rockets, satchel charges, anti-vehicle mines and so on fall into this group. They would be very lethal to most predators with a direct hit. The main issue is rarity and a low ammo supply.

Now, there IS the possibility of a pred defending themselves if they see an attack coming. Vivian produced some kind of magical shield in the 4th manga, and it is likely other giant magic-users may be able to do similar things as well.

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List of predator powers

The thing to really remember is that most of those powers are not made to be used on humans, and are completely impractical for the task. Predator magic is primarily there to help give the pred an edge against other giant predators, and the various species of giant wildlife that lives out in the wilderness with them. You could turn those abilities on a human, but it would be akin to using a sledgehammer to try and kill a mouse. Its complete overkill, and would probably be a bit tough to do.

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-Enforced hostile environments (when Namesta, Rin, Iridan, Garnet, Kiki or similars turn the world against you, whether by animating everything there is, or by setting it on fire with you in it). Those are VERY easily the most dangerous; numbers don't do SQUAT in those cases, because you can't ever possibly outnumber everything, and you are ALL surrounded from ALL damn sides, even up and down. There is no logical response outside of the realms of magic that I can foresee at the time. And countering this feels like too much, maybe it's not meant to be countered, maybe this is where we were supposed to draw the line that says "if your characters can get out of this, maybe you should consider making up your own world?"

Really the most dangerous of these are the area-of-effect spellcasters. Fire, Ice and Earth would be especially tough to deal with for the average human. The best bet with those types of predators is to simply not draw their attention. Stealth is your friend. The nature element users have it a bit tougher. I don't think every single one of them would have the concentration and pure skill to single out a human in the jungle and get them with their magic. Cypress can do this, but she IS a dryad, and has had 400 years to fine-tune her control of her powers.

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-Illusions (When Vivian, Subeta, Mina, or just about anybody starts messing with what's real and what isn't). About as dangerous as enforced hostile environments, they can easily solicit an incorrect response from even the best trained group and lead it completely to its demise. Assumptions are dangerous.

Similar to the area-of-effect casters in some ways. The best bet is to, once again, not get their attention. Now, I doubt all illusions are perfect. If someone is alert, and has the magical skill, it may just be possible to shatter the illusion and break loose. Of course, you're still in close proximity to a giant predator though...so you're probably still kind of screwed there anyway.

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-Mandatory subjugation (when Vivian or Kahla just give you the game over screen. Game over sequence's worth it though). Their danger can't be rated. If this condition is encountered, pray to Minalca that not everyone can be affected at the same time.

These are really similar to illusions in some ways, and probably only work at very close ranges. Once again...don't let the giant, spellcasting animal-person know you're there. These are likely a lot tougher to break, since they seem to be a stronger type of magic than a mere illusion. Might be possible to break out of with the proper willpower and magical training. Very dangerous stuff.

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-Subversions of usual constants (when Aya takes rockets to the face and survives, or Lily starts zipping around like she had a hundred coffees). Danger varies. As long as you weren't counting on any superiorities against them, you should be able to make do.

Ehhh, I really don't think ANY pred should take a direct hit from a rocket. It may just be an error in the writing. Given the power of Aya's berserker state, it probably isn't too much of a stretch to assume she can errect some kind of magical shield for defense. As for Lily...she's a racist, sociopathic fairy that can grow rape-vines out of her body to torture you before she sucks the life out of you. If you're anywhere close to Lily, you are completely screwed. Although, given that she is unable to actually grow giant...a VERY strong human mage (or maybe a very powerful pair of Isolon Fist battlemages) may just be able to take her on, or at least but up a decent fight.

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-Exotic long-range ordinance (When Vivian shoots rays, Kiki opens fire, Rin throws ice or Fiona tries to huff and puff. Ain't that just cute?). Least dangerous! Treat just like any death ray of doom

(Yes it is cute, as a matter of fact Don't forget she has a boomerang she can bop people with now too. lol)

But yeah, this is definately the least dangerous, at least to a human. Long range attacks like these are only useful against other giants or giant animals. They'd be flashy, and loud and scary...but very unlikely to actually hit you.

I still think stealth and knowledge are any aventurer's best friend. If you want to learn some magic to protect yourself in the jungle, you're better off trying to learn some defensive stuff. Learn to mask your magcial field, learn simple illusions to make yourself disappear, and so on. You won't stand a chance against a giant pred in full combat unless you're a highly trained battlemage, who has been tought how to engage that kind of opponent.

Mhm, I like the idea that human, neko and elves would also have an "alignment" like many of the predators seem to have. If one is not a mage it doesn't make much difference, but when practicing magic it will make one "School" easier.

Now the reason I like this is that it puts a restriction on mages not through sheer power but on versatility. This means that there can't be one "uber-mage" running around bitch smacking everything in the jungle.

A good example of this is Telekline and Voidfingers - two mages with specialized skills, but who work well together as a team.

I imagine that the Magiocrats have a magical university or school. Of course, some people might not have a strong alignment at all, meaning they can do just general spells or perhaps aren't suited for magic at all. There are probably a wide list of "Universal" magic spells.

(Removed)

rcs619 wrote:

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On the other hand, I suppose predators must have the innate ability to shrug off nonmagical weapons up to a certain level of power, which'd explain why is it they haven't all been gunned down yet.

Nope.

If a pred shrugs off military-grade hardware without any explanation, that is because of bad writing. The current weapon consensus is roughly this:

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- Melee weapons (non-magical): ...Seriously dude, what the hell is wrong with you? RUUUUUUUUN!
- Magical weapons: In the hands of a skilled mage, these could be pretty powerful.
- Pistols: Useless against anything much larger than a humans. Make good self-defense weapons in some of the rougher areas both inside and outside of Negav though.

This is fine and I agree.

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- Shotguns: Once again, really only effective against humans and medium-sized animals. Primarily for anti-human defense, or hunting game.

Someone doesn't know what shot slugs are. Or Shotgun grenades.

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- Hunting rifles/Sniper rifles: Depending on the type of round, this could cause a giant pred some pain if put in a sensitive location. The low rate of fire makes them completely impractical for a real anti-pred defense though. Main use would be hunting game or dealing with medium-large wild animals.
- Assault rifles: Now you are getting into a weapon class that can cause some pain. While 5.56mm assault rifles likely won't be all that impressive, a fully automatic 7.62mm assault rifle (such as an AK-47, for example), would get some penetration. It would not be lethal, but it would hurt, and possible make a pred go search for prey that isn't as much of a hassle.

- Light Machineguns: A step up from an assault rifle, these would be extremely painful, but likely still non-lethal. They are a bit clunky though, so that would need to be taken into consideration.[/quote]
Not really, some LMGs are designed to be fired while standing. There are quite a few light machienguns which are almost like heavy assault rifles. Light really is a relative term. There are even light machineguns that you can fire with one hand while still keeping decent accuracy.

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- Hunting rifles/Sniper rifles: Depending on the type of round, this could cause a giant pred some pain if put in a sensitive location. The low rate of fire makes them completely impractical - 50-caliber weaponry: Be it machinegun or rifle, 50-caliber firearms would have serious penetrating power and a potentially lethal punch to a predator if aimed right. A 50-caliber machinegun would likely kill a predator with a well-aimed burst..

No it wouldn't, but they would most definitely feel it.
A .50 cal is not going to kill a predator unless you have a heart of steel, a LOT of ammo and a cornered predator.
Even a .50 cal shot in the eye won't kill a pred, but they're not going to be seeing anything for a while.

If you have enough ammo on hand to kill a predator then you've probably also got a rocket launcher, which will do it in one hit when aimed right.

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These are large weapons though, and would need to be mounted somewhere.

No, see below.


Of course you can see this guy won't be able to run really fast with this thing, but it IS man portable and he can fire with a decent enough accuracy to hit a predator there.

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- Anti-armor explosives: Rockets, satchel charges, anti-vehicle mines and so on fall into this group. They would be very lethal to most predators with a direct hit. The main issue is rarity and a low ammo supply.

If it can kill a tank it's safe to say it will kill a giant predator.

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Ehhh, I really don't think ANY pred should take a direct hit from a rocket.

This. This. A million times this.

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Oh, and maybe we should get down just what each "affinity" of magic is good for? Um, roughly...

Ha, affinities. Originally my idea (if you're speaking of what I think you're speaking of), I never definitivly wrote it down. I outlined it breifly in a thread a while ago.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

Schools of Magic
Fire

Water

Etcetera, etcetera.

I disagree with this. Not with schools of magic, they should exist, but with your definition of it there.
Your definition is too restrictive and at the same time I can thing of some things that mages should be able to do yet they don't fall into any of those categories or blur the definitions (wind mages throwing fireballs? It's more likely than you think by your defninition).

Also, with the magic classes, according to fable 3, you can mix them together. A wind mage could also throw a fireball, but using ley magic they could mix the fireball spell with a wind spell to make it far more destructive. Maybe the longer it goes on, the more it "snowballs" from the wind spell attached onto it.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

Also, with the magic classes, according to fable 3, you can mix them together. A wind mage could also throw a fireball, but using ley magic they could mix the fireball spell with a wind spell to make it far more destructive. Maybe the longer it goes on, the more it "snowballs" from the wind spell attached onto it.

See that's what I'm talking about, it just gets confusing, it shouldn't happen like that because we don't want some mage running around with a bit of everything.

Can't everybody just wait until I get my affinities idea typed up?

Like I said, these aren't restrictive. These are simply magical affinities that one could specialize in, which are used to identify schools of magic. These affinities would be much more restrictive for predators than for humans, since predators generally don't have access to large libraries of magical technique. But a good mage would be able to multi-school. Vivian has an affinity for water but seems to be using Shadow magic, or some illusions, with great ease.

Tossing out a low level fireball would be probably easy for most early mages.

Plus, its a matter of time to master various schools. Hypothetically, a really old mage who had been studying all his life could have much of these down. Then there is the whole business of where you are getting your power from... a good mix of complimentary magics would be very helpful - i.e. Voidfingers seems to be a Shadow Mage who has a large cache of artifact magic in the form of his masks.

Combining spells from different affinities is another cool idea, I agree.

These are more just definitions of what sort of spells people would be slinging around. I suppose there should also be a "Universal" or "General" magic school too, but I figure many "general" spells can fit under "Light" or "Shadow".

An affinity is just a natural strength at a certain school of magic - Felarya seems to somehow cause these affinities in people, or allow them to manifest.

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An affinity is just a natural strength at a certain school of magic - Felarya seems to somehow cause these affinities in people, or allow them to manifest.

Well... Yes and no.

If everyone could have a bit of patience, we could work this out properly. Anyway this thread is not for how magic works. It's for how people use it.

If I may toss some two cents, and I just know almost everyone will disagree with me, but don't you think we have too many mages and not enough fighters? I know Felarya is rich in magic, but from many stories I've read so far, over half the characters are very proficient in at least one type of magic, and it make it seem like learning how to use magic is incredibly easy, when I'm certain it isn't. I'm not against mages, but they're getting pretty stagnant in my book.

Also, JT, while I can agree to some parts of how you put magic types, I don't like the idea of restricting everything to one type of purpose or name. It may be a multiversal setting, but if everything is the same, it undermines the whole "multiple world" thing. I also prefer to keep Light and Holy as separate, as well as Dark and Unholy, because I'm sure there is manipulation of light that isn't necessarily connected to angels and divine power.

Sean Okotami wrote:

If I may toss some two cents, and I just know almost everyone will disagree with me, but don't you think we have too many mages and not enough fighters? I know Felarya is rich in magic, but from many stories I've read so far, over half the characters are very proficient in at least one type of magic, and it make it seem like learning how to use magic is incredibly easy, when I'm certain it isn't. I'm not against mages, but they're getting pretty stagnant in my book.

First off, I don't really disagree. I find that in Felarya magic is often times implemented in such a way that defies what would be reasonable in various regards. The most obvious of these regards being, as you stated, the number of able users of magic. While it is true that it would be taught and implemented for various purposes, I doubt every roaming party would have mages amongst them. It probably isn't very easy to learn either save for some inherent character elemental alignment or what have you, but for the sake of convenience in story telling a lot of people may simply cut corners when it comes to the development of magic as a skill. Onto what you said about regular fighters, I can't disagree there either. Other individuals have, much to my disdain, expressed the idea that conventional weaponry as we know it would have little in the ways of effectiveness against a predator, particularly the giant kinds. This simply isn't true if you're anything beyond ignorant, I'm not saying that a full clip is going to be downing everything, but those bullets certainly aren't going to be bouncing off of exposed skin harmlessly. In the case of higher caliber arms and artillery, then a competent group of "fighters" would actually fare well. But this is just how I see things. Bladed weapons would have their uses as well, but I'm inclined to think guns would be somewhat of a standard.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Also, JT, while I can agree to some parts of how you put magic types, I don't like the idea of restricting everything to one type of purpose or name. It may be a multiversal setting, but if everything is the same, it undermines the whole "multiple world" thing. I also prefer to keep Light and Holy as separate, as well as Dark and Unholy, because I'm sure there is manipulation of light that isn't necessarily connected to angels and divine power.

Agreed as well. If I might go into specifics regarding the examples given (light and holy, dark and unholy), then I would have to say that there would be, in my eyes, a good amount of difference between such things. Light manipulation/magic would, to me, be incorporating actual light. This being sunlight, artificially produced lights, or for raw power I'd venture to say lasers could fit the bill as well. Holy, on the other hand, is associated with divinity and such, so that entails entirely different things as far as I'm concerned. Same deal with dark and unholy. If my logic is anything to go off of then it's clear that putting magic into general groupings wouldn't work out in the end.

Stabs wrote:

. On the other hand, predators like (or unlike) Vivian are magical... I don't know if we should call them 'powerhouses', but if they're going to have the upper hand, they better have it there too, it could be pretty silly otherwise.

Why, if you don't mind me asking? I see no reason for a Giant in particular to have an automatic "Magic +20" bonus just because they're big. Are you saying that if a Human Archmage was to use a Growth spell, for instance, their magic would suddenly multiply in proportion to their change in volume? Or, if a Fairy shrinks down from "Giant" to "Tiny" size, their magic suddenly suffers a -200 penalty?

Stabs wrote:

So, basically, I need to know what would you call "relatively humble resources" where magic is concerned.

While I wouldn't exactly say Magic is as common as the Elder Scrolls series, I would say Enchantments and Potions / Alchemy (alchemy ALA historic and TES-styles, not FMA style which is magic pretending to be something else) are practically as common due to the high magical residue of Felarya. You'd still need someone with magical talent to work materials into something useful, but it's the difference between having That One Mushroom that only blooms every blue moon in the underground lake, and having the things grow in your neighbor's garden every other week. Similarly, there's much more magic around to place into enchantments as opposed to a place wherein magic comes from select "springs": Felarya's saturated in such magic, the issue is more shaping it and controlling it than having a supply.

Stabs wrote:

What you wouldn't be too surprised at the average adventurer -or hired spellblade- having at his beck and call.

Average off-worlder, or average native? I imagine for natives things like minor stunning spells (preferably to be cast at-will) with at least enough power to stun a man-sized being (not everything going after mages is going to be Giant or magic resistant) will be a good start. Something like a D&D Magic Missile wouldn't surprise me, but their aim-bot capabilities would (unless it had something akin to a Pred-sense in that it tracked specific magical "signatures" and homed in on 'em, which would delay casting times from the very helpful fast to a more dreadful not-so-fast).

Typical "cantrips" involving starting small fires (like lighting a lantern, or starting the kindle) would also probably be common. They require very little energy, but can be extremely helpful.

For advanced explorers (but still within common reach), sonic-related spells and light-related ones are also probably helpful. Lighting a flare in a Predator's cornea is bound to buy you time, and neither sound nor light should be heavily modified by magic-resistance of things like bugs.

Why'd I mention sound? Because sound's an amazing weapon. Cast "Deafness" on self. Learn how to center the noise of a loud thunderclap on an individual, or amplify it even further and cast on self. Watch as suddenly things that were attacking you are writhing as their eardrums burst and / or their balance and coordination is completely shot to hell. Heck, a tag-team combo could very probably catch an unawares Predator (I say unawares because any Mage, Predator or Human, worth their salt probably has a ton of counter-spells and magical defenses readied on their person such as "Dull any noise louder than [x] to [y] level" so as to avoid being taken out like a chump).

Stabs wrote:

You know, like Fire-1, Magic Missile, 1-mote detection rote, Hikari-o, or whatever.

Fire 1 would probably require more experience / affinity than Fire-Spark. A Spark practically any mage worth their salt should be able to manage, provided they can access offensive magic. Spontaneously combusting even a 1'x1'x1' box? Something else altogether, even with catalysts. Similarly, small static shocks should be probable for almost any magic user to learn, but something like "Taser-Hand!" would require a bit more skill or affinity (though I now have this image in my head of a mage going "No means no!" before Taser-handing then Prismatic Spraying a would-be-rapist in the face).

Stabs wrote:

Also, what kind of magic should we be wary of predators having at their beck and call- considering that a predator's main weakness is that there's only one of it, so it can have a lot more oomph than anyone else (also, in the general mood for Felarya, predators have the upper hand anywhere it can be called "power" with a straight face).

Predators have an edge in physical powers by default, because they're large. Again, magic is something else entirely. Arguing that size = might means that, whenever a Fairy cuts its size, it'd be willingly handicapping itself by some 1000%+ of what they're normally capable of. Potentially a whole 'nother digit added on to that percentage. And I can't see any Fairy doing that on a whim, let alone as casually as they do in stories and art (Would you jump between sizes willy-nilly if you proportionally went from being able to make a gunshot to defend yourself to poke someone with your finger nail?).

Stabs wrote:

Personally, I can't think of any magic I would consider relatively humble, but that's mainly because I generally consider magic to be flashy. If not, why bother?

Savage: "Because flashy-flashy is a waste of good precision, energy, and time. Sure, you find a good arch-mage they can probably make a fireball the size of a house with a few moments incantation. But ask them how often they'll use a spell that big, that cumbersome, and that long to call, and see how many state they'll do it frequently. Those that do, see how many are members of magical shows or green academy show-offs and how many have some jungle between their toes."

Stabs wrote:

Long story short- what would you expect of a mage you'd call basic yet effective/effective yet basic, with a straight face? Feel free to discuss what you consider an advanced mage capable of, how much magical power does a predator need to stay an interesting foe/character/obstacle/pred, or where is it Ramtov and Thas stand in the power scales.

Illusions are always problematic (yes, you mentioned them before this paragraph) not because of power: They're practically a complex light spell with possibly some TK and sound thrown into the mix if you're going for an authentic image. The problem with an illusion is you need to know what you're mimicking, what it would behave like, what it can do, etcetera. In this regard, Predators that eat humans but show more interest in them than "Ooh walking Twinkie" would probably be much more adept than a Predator thrice their age and magical power, but doesn't bother with "those small things" unless they're involved in their dinner plans.

It also makes impersonating a specific person that someone / something knows extremely risky, because it can rat out readily who it is behind the illusion as well. For instance, about how many Demi-Human friends does Lea have? Now, if someone could make an illusion that walked like her, talked like her, behaved like her (insofar as the illusion could behave), and so on, about how many culprits would that leave for who could be behind the illusion?

For Illusion Mages, generic "Humanoid" illusion spells probably would be more a matter of concentration and adding components beyond the basic visual (such as ability for the illusion to "interact", not reek of magical power, have "mass", and so on). However, once you break away from "John Doe" in the crowd and go into "Professor Kar" or "Landlord of the apartments", you're much more tried in what you can and can't do. I could see a starter capable of doing something like an illusionary mouse without much trouble, but if they tried to do "Gunther having a walk" they'd very probably wind up with a failed illusion at best.

Sean Okotami wrote:

If I may toss some two cents, and I just know almost everyone will disagree with me, but don't you think we have too many mages and not enough fighters? I know Felarya is rich in magic, but from many stories I've read so far, over half the characters are very proficient in at least one type of magic, and it make it seem like learning how to use magic is incredibly easy, when I'm certain it isn't. I'm not against mages, but they're getting pretty stagnant in my book.

I'll agree that Mages are a bit common... overall, for Predators and Prey. It's not something D&D-rare, wherein having That One Guy(tm) in your town who can occasionally throw a fireball is considered a pinnacle of average mental defenses, but at the same time "Prey" Wizards don't appear to be Elder Scrolls common wherein practically anyone and their three year old step-son can learn some spells if they bother to practice every now and then.

Meanwhile, for Predators... Magic still isn't that common. People try to argue "Well they need it to survive, so obviously Mage Predators are more common." Prey. Same argument applies there then. Would you argue that any Adventurer on Felarya who isn't green behind the ears is a skilled Arch-Mage (since a good deal of the Predators with spell-capabilities are magical powerhouses)? No? Why? Arguably they have much greater incentive to need magic casters, what with having even more stuff out to get them, as well as a more cohesive society that would allow better sharing of spells and spell books (for that matter, they can actually have spell books). "Natural affinity" only cuts for certain sub-species, and considering we don't see people start making things like "Fire Humans" or "Ice Nekos" with frequency, you don't need to apply such to every single type of Predator (you can have them a mage, just stop trying to present them as sub-species!).

Well, I've been reading a bit of stories, and I've noticed that a lot of the named characters know some degree of practical magic. I was thinking that this is just the shown stuff and mages are not as common as non-casters, but from a character standpoint, I think we are seeing a bit too many characters with somewhat versatile magic. Like I said, it gives a connotation that spellcasting is incredibly easy, which I don't think is the case. For those who read my stories, I am aware that my main protagonist has a form of practical magic.

well generally magic in use makes a person feel special, so people include it in stories because it's fun, easy to write, and it makes them feel like their character can be better than everyone else's. I think the main issue there is "being better than everyone else", it's not enjoyable to have a weaker character, and that I think is the main reason (at least psychologically) why people don't write stories about anyone who cant use magic at all, especially since most predators have some kind of ability that's relevant to magic in a vague way. A single adventurer with a gun just wont do anything in felarya unless they are extremely intelligent, and their characteristics start bordering on mary sues. (though in felarya certain sue-ish features dont apply I think.)

there are extreme limitations when it comes to magic use, either not at all, maybe one or two abilities MAX (like avatar the last airbender. curse james cameron), or just...a ridiculous amount of it.

rcs619 wrote:

Nope.

If a pred shrugs off military-grade hardware without any explanation, that is because of bad writing.

I agree, to some degree, but on the other hand, Felarya seems to run on a toned-down version of Godzilla physics. After all, I remember in the manga Anna getting hit in the back with what appeared to be a grenade, and being annoyed but basically fine. While Belletia had a grenade go off in her mouth/throat, and was similarly in pain but mostly uninjured. Then again, I'm no weapon expert, so maybe I'm misunderstanding what 'military-grade' means. In any case, this is probably a topic for another time, and another thread.

Sean Okotami wrote:

I was thinking that this is just the shown stuff and mages are not as common as non-casters, but from a character standpoint, I think we are seeing a bit too many characters with somewhat versatile magic.

I concur, and this is definitely backed up by the manga. Most mages tend to specialize in one or two types of magic (Thas, Ramtov), but can be quite deadly in their chosen field. In addition to keeping characters from being overpowered, it makes them more unique and interesting, too. I have thus-far endeavored to keep my magic-using characters focused in this way.

On another magic topic, predator magic-scaling has been something that always vexed me. On the one hand, I can't think of a good explanation for why a fireball thrown by a predator of equal skill should be bigger than that of a human (short of something like midichlorians, but then I said good), but on the other hand, if, for example, Vivian were to throw a human-sized fireball at some harpy who will remain unnamed, she'd be wasting her time. So small she'd be better off punching her. While on the third hand, if magics of predator-scale were reasonably attainable by humans and predators alike... well, lets just say it might not have been a shark that Telekline hurled through the air like like a ragdoll.

I have given this a good deal of thought, and can come up with no satisfying solution, to the point where I just hand-wave and say 'Mezzus did it'.

Thoughts?

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I agree, to some degree, but on the other hand, Felarya seems to run on a toned-down version of Godzilla physics. After all, I remember in the manga Anna getting hit in the back with what appeared to be a grenade, and being annoyed but basically fine. While Belletia had a grenade go off in her mouth/throat, and was similarly in pain but mostly uninjured. Then again, I'm no weapon expert, so maybe I'm misunderstanding what 'military-grade' means. In any case, this is probably a topic for another time, and another thread.

Those were just standard anti-personel fragmentation grenades.

The explosive charge in those really is not that great. Nearly all of their killing power comes from the shrapnel and pressure waves that they put off. They are designed to kill soft, or very lightly armored targets. They really don't have any kind of penetrating power, at least, not enough to be anywhere near lethal to a full-grown pred.

The grenade in the manga impacted with Anna's back. There is nothing there to really damage. It seemed to be painful, and did leave a mark though, which is still pretty impressive to a creature that size. With Belletia, the grenade exploded in her mouth. It was clearly very painful, as it was able to cause a full-grown Harpy to reel back in pain and suprise long enough for her prey to escape. It just isn't anywhere near lethal to something that big.

Now, if you get that same grenade into a predator's eye, well...the pain would likely be excruciating, and some kind of damage would certainly be done to the eye itself.

There are several levels of "military-grade" really. Anti-personel grenades really fall into the same category as most assault rifles...powerful enough to be painful, and potentially draw some blood, but just not damaging enough to cause serious bodily harm and/or death.

The kind of stuff you want to have if you want a lethal hit, is going to be anti-vehicle weaponry. Heavy machineguns is sufficient numbers, rockets (even something as simple as the RPG-7 would be more than adequate), mortars, satchel charges, anti-vehicle mines and explosives, and so on. Anything less than these are really only viable as a deterrant...which sometimes IS the better option. No need to kill someone and be forced to deal with a 100 ton rotting corpse (or angry friends of said corpse), if you can cause them enough pain to just make them go find easier prey.

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I concur, and this is definitely backed up by the manga. Most mages tend to specialize in one or two types of magic (Thas, Ramtov), but can be quite deadly in their chosen field. In addition to keeping characters from being overpowered, it makes them more unique and interesting, too. I have thus-far endeavored to keep my magic-using characters focused in this way.

Yep, this is a good thing. It puts a set or rules and restrictions on magic, and forces characters to play within them. It keeps one mage from just being able to magically solve any problem, and makes sure there are some situations where that magic user's abilities are going to be completely ineffective, and he's forced to think of a non-magical solution.

Rules and restrictions help encourage creative thought. When you have boundries, you actually have to think of new ways to work around them ^^

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On another magic topic, predator magic-scaling has been something that always vexed me. On the one hand, I can't think of a good explanation for why a fireball thrown by a predator of equal skill should be bigger than that of a human (short of something like midichlorians, but then I said good), but on the other hand, if, for example, Vivian were to throw a human-sized fireball at some harpy who will remain unnamed, she'd be wasting her time. So small she'd be better off punching her. While on the third hand, if magics of predator-scale were reasonably attainable by humans and predators alike... well, lets just say it might not have been a shark that Telekline hurled through the air like like a ragdoll.

There is no other solution other than to assume that magic power is scaled up. A fireball generated by a giant pred is going to be bigger, and more destructive than that of a human fireball of the same relative size. Could a human mage generate a massive fireball on par with a predator's fireball? Sure...but the pred is always going to be able to make a bigger one in the end. Its just a matter of scale. Its the same principle as a predator's speed and strength. They are all scaled up with size.

Now, it iisn't "fair" to humans, but that was never the point of Felarya. You don't win a fair fight with a giant predator. Even Voidfingers and Telekline, two VERY skilled mages in their own right, had to combine their powers to have a shot. Telekline's powers are definately capable of great things, but we've seen that a point-blank strike to Anko's face with his powers isn't anywhere near strong enough to do much other than piss her off. But when you combine that power with Voidfinger's extreme mobility and skill at using his portals in very creative ways...well, then its a bit more of an equal matchup.

Like was shown against Anna. Engaging a predator is all about attacking at the right moment and using the right tactics. Being tiny is a lot more useful than people think. It makes hit and run attacks potentially very effective, especially with the aid of someone with extreme mobility, like Voidfingers.

The only humans I COULD see taking on a predator one-on-one would be a Magiocrat in full-on combat mode. They're the most powerful mages in Negav, and I imagine they are capable of some crazy things if they are actually put in a position where they have no other choice.

Prinny, I hope I'm not offensive, but you quoted a line that said that I believe that the majority of characters with a name will be a mage of some kind, and I find this practice to be getting old. You concured, but then you said that mages focus on their field and all, which didn't have anything with the line you quoted. I have nothing against mages, but seeing so many kind of defeat the purpose of a spellcaster being special and powerful if they are common. I am of course not counting races with high magical aptitudes like fairies and elves.

rcs619 wrote:

There is no other solution other than to assume that magic power is scaled up. A fireball generated by a giant pred is going to be bigger, and more destructive than that of a human fireball of the same relative size. Could a human mage generate a massive fireball on par with a predator's fireball? Sure...but the pred is always going to be able to make a bigger one in the end. Its just a matter of scale. Its the same principle as a predator's speed and strength. They are all scaled up with size.

I continue to disagree with this, and shall repeat one of my better examples for why: Fairies. When a Fairy changes its "true size" from "Giant" to "Humanish", do they suddenly have their magical power cut exponentially? If so, why? Why would they then so casually risk so much power as well, by so willingly changing between sizes?

Unless the differences in size were made to be extremely minor (Ex: Giant Predator x2 or x3), the penalties for any shrinking spells or buffs from a growing spell would be enormous (imagine if any mage with a "Growth x2" spell could immediately double their magical power for the duration of the spell. Such spells would be extremely common in the process of enchanting and setting magical defenses and the like then). This also means that magic would be a field practically no Tinies / Neeras / small creature would involve itself in, only their arch-mages and most talented of talented having any change of influencing anything bigger than a common house cat (well, again, besides the obvious Sound, Light, Electric, and few other fields which are not proportional in power). The best one could manage would be a walking taser and rave.

rcs619 wrote:

Even Voidfingers and Telekline, two VERY skilled mages in their own right, had to combine their powers to have a shot.

Isn't there a canon image of an Arch-Mage supercharging a Diamond Naga?

rcs619 wrote:

But when you combine that power with Voidfinger's extreme mobility and skill at using his portals in very creative ways...well, then its a bit more of an equal matchup.

Portals themselves are amazing weapons, depending on what sort of "safety" features they have on them. If you can close them on command and the portal severs immediately with no "body dumped where majority of mass is", you have a 100% infallible cutting instrument (provided the target can be taken through a portal in the first place). Perfect edge, instantaneous, only defense is not being in the portal (hence why you position the portals rapidly or in a spot where gravity will aid you) or being immune to portal effects, that's about it.

Reason you'll never see them used consistently as a weapon is portals are by no means a simple procedure. Illusion is a fancy light show, sound is low-scale manipulation of matter. Portals are bending the universe so as to connect one point to another. The longer you try to hold the portal, as well, and the bigger you try to make the connection (ex: A 1.5m at longest point oval versus a 3m circle), the more energy it takes / better control (at least as long as you don't want to risk an "accident").

rcs619 wrote:

Like was shown against Anna. Engaging a predator is all about attacking at the right moment and using the right tactics. Being tiny is a lot more useful than people think. It makes hit and run attacks potentially very effective, especially with the aid of someone with extreme mobility, like Voidfingers.

Aye, haste spells would be amazing so long as you don't buff yourself too fast for your body to keep up (or you modify your reaction times to be consistent with the new speed). Compared to average Predator speeds, a Human is like a small turtle almost. Place a few magical buffs on them, the Predator hunting a human is now like a human trying to catch a mouse. Add in that, unlike Humans, the Predators predominantly try to catch their "mouse" prey alive, you're making things even more difficult for said Predator to nab you.

rcs619 wrote:

The only humans I COULD see taking on a predator one-on-one would be a Magiocrat in full-on combat mode.

I assume you mean mages.

I could see a bunch of Humans, possibly even rookies, taking on a Predator if they know what to do, and winning. The thing here is, I consider "winning" to be "Minimal chance of the Predator catching or thwarting said Mage's current objectives", not "killing". A well placed portal spell could work if you force the Predator into it, but unless you're fething good with multi-tasking, wide portals (wide enough to at least fit a Predator's head through), and illusions, you probably aren't going to do anything more than lop parts of a finger / hand off with any one portal. Properly applied electrical damage can obviously work, but then again a properly grounded / protected Predator could pretty much ruin any electrical attacks regardless of power (Guardians help Felarya if Anna shares the secrets of a Faraday Cage and the Predators learn to improvise / improve it).

Someone who can cast disintegrate, even if only capable of reducing a human-sized volume to ash, would be capable of putting quite lethal damage on a Predator, but someone who can put lots of such spells out is probably an Evocation Arch-Mage or better, and it's kind of a given that a talented, high-ranking Wizard focusing in the school of "Kill shit dead" is going to be skilled at, well, killing shit dead.

The difficulty in disabling a Predator and winning (see: not getting eaten or flattened) one-on-one is very small. Heck, if you can make a flashbang at a distance you already have all you technically need to temporarily disable a Predator. The difficulty in using magic, raw magic, and magic alone to absolutely kill a Predator is something else entirely. Dedicated offensive spells are needed, and you need to have them prepared for such a circumstance (as you're very probably not going to have the time to charge 'em, unless you can also focus on the disable spells) to have a real shot. Any "lethal" spells would probably work best sans brute force, and more through targeting key anatomy spots (See: Summoning a magical spear that flings with the force of a cannon projectile into the spine of a Predator) or improvising (see: Creative use of a Water-to-Dust spell or a Part Water spell).

Archmage_Bael wrote:

it's not enjoyable to have a weaker character,

Sure it is. Having weak characters, in my opinion, is what makes a story interesting. Don't get me wrong, I like seeing super-humans wading through villains as much as the next guy, but watching the Common Man(tm) do something through use of wits that otherwise would have been impossible (or even watching the Common Man fail, but try their best and show that they had a chance) is what really draws my attention. There's a reason I still remember the human Knight from the attack on Mithril Hall who challenged a Drow Captain to a personal fight - it's not because he won, or lived, or even managed to harm his opponent (because he did none of those things), it's because it was someone sticking it to the odds and acting anyways.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

A single adventurer with a gun just wont do anything in felarya unless they are extremely intelligent, and their characteristics start bordering on mary sues. (though in felarya certain sue-ish features dont apply I think.)

You don't need suish intelligence to do well on Felarya. However, if you write a story poorly, you will look to be a Sue if you portray your character as the only one smart enough to do such.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

there are extreme limitations when it comes to magic use, either not at all, maybe one or two abilities MAX (like avatar the last airbender. curse james cameron), or just...a ridiculous amount of it.

Bit of a false dilemma. There's many applications possible for magic. The catch is that most people are stuck with the "What do you mean my mage can't Dragon Slave?" power levels, "I can cast Magic Missile once every day" levels, or non-existent (as you said). Few people work around with a magic level that is present, but neither "GIGA SLAVE!" nor "CHROMATIC ORB!" level powerful.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Prinny, I hope I'm not offensive, but you quoted a line that said that I believe that the majority of characters with a name will be a mage of some kind, and I find this practice to be getting old. You concured, but then you said that mages focus on their field and all, which didn't have anything with the line you quoted. I have nothing against mages, but seeing so many kind of defeat the purpose of a spellcaster being special and powerful if they are common. I am of course not counting races with high magical aptitudes like fairies and elves.

Spellcasters aren't going to be special and and rare in Felarya though.

Felarya is saturated in magic. Its a part of everyday life there. Most of the people who were born and raised there ARE going to know magic of some kind, even if it is just something basic and simple. It is just the nature of the world. Extremely powerful spellcasters, like Voidfingers and Telekline, and the Magiocrats....they would be a bit more rare. But I imagine most native Felaryans will know some simple magic of some kind.

Just like how someone coming from a technologically advanced world likely is not going to know any magic, or may even believe magic to be a thing of myth and legend...but they will have technology to help them.

Magic is an energy field, and if you are exposed to it long enough, you learn to feel it...to bend it...and eventually, to use magic of your own. People native to Felarya have been exposed to that from birth, so they are going to be much more magically inclined than someone coming from another world that had little or no magic.

(Sorry for the double-post, but I'd already posted and this deserves its own post)

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I continue to disagree with this, and shall repeat one of my better examples for why: Fairies. When a Fairy changes its "true size" from "Giant" to "Humanish", do they suddenly have their magical power cut exponentially? If so, why? Why would they then so casually risk so much power as well, by so willingly changing between sizes?

Yes, yes they do. If a fireball makes a fireball in her hand when she's 4 inches tall...of course it will be much, much, much weaker than a handheld fireball when she's giant. It is all a matter of scale. If you do not factor in scale then things just begin to look silly, and strange.

Faires ARE much weaker when they are tiny. That is why it is only viable to hunt them when they are human-sized are smaller. A human-sized fairy is only going to be them magical equivalent of a skilled human mage plus the ability to shrink people or change her size back.

As for why they would do this. For conveiniance and safety. The jungle is full of a lot of small, cramped, tiny spaces that giant's don't have access to. Fairies can get around this completely, making them one of the most mobile of all predator races. It is also a good defensive mechanism. If a giant animal comes along, or even another pred, and the Fairy can't handle it...well, all she has to do is shrink down and hide somewhere the giant can't get to.

Fairies are affected by scaling just as much as everyone else. When they shrink smaller, their magic, strength and speed all scale down with them. That is why Lily is so, so lethal to humans, but would be nearly harmless to any giant predators. She is stuck at human size, and is stuck with all the strengths and weaknesses that go along with that.

If Crisis got shrunken to human size somehow, she wouldn't still be able to break boulders with her tail. That kind of stuff is affected by scale, and changes with it.

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Isn't there a canon image of an Arch-Mage supercharging a Diamond Naga?

I think the key word there would be Arch-Mage. Someone who has centuries of magical training and is among the upper tier of all mages. Plus, that image is extremely old, and likely outdated by new rules and restrictions in modern Felarya.

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Portals themselves are amazing weapons, depending on what sort of "safety" features they have on them. If you can close them on command and the portal severs immediately with no "body dumped where majority of mass is", you have a 100% infallible cutting instrument (provided the target can be taken through a portal in the first place). Perfect edge, instantaneous, only defense is not being in the portal (hence why you position the portals rapidly or in a spot where gravity will aid you) or being immune to portal effects, that's about it.

I don't think that is the case, or Voidfingers likely would have done that already. Besides, it would make that kind of magic far too powerful. Portals need to be a type of support magic, not some uber-powerful offensive magic.

He probably cannot close his portals if there is mass still passing between them.

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I assume you mean mages

I specifically said one-on-one. The only two things that could do that are someone getting a lucky shot with a rocket, or an extremely powerful mage, like an arch-mage or a Magiocrat.

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I could see a bunch of Humans, possibly even rookies, taking on a Predator if they know what to do, and winning. The thing here is, I consider "winning" to be "Minimal chance of the Predator catching or thwarting said Mage's current objectives", not "killing".

I've said exactly that, many times. The two main advantages human have in a combat situation are numbers, and their small size. They can attack from multiple angles, and then fade into the jungle or hide someplace the predator cannot even get to. A small, well-trained squad, both magically and technologically equipped, probably has a decent change (like an Isolon Fist squad).

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well placed portal spell could work if you force the Predator into it

Nope. There need to be limitations on the portals. The amount of magic it takes to make a portal probably increases exponentially with size. A portal mage like Voidfingers could probably make openings large enough to drive vehicles through, but probably not much bigger than that before the strain starts to get too much.

rcs619 wrote:

Sean Okotami wrote:

Prinny, I hope I'm not offensive, but you quoted a line that said that I believe that the majority of characters with a name will be a mage of some kind, and I find this practice to be getting old. You concured, but then you said that mages focus on their field and all, which didn't have anything with the line you quoted. I have nothing against mages, but seeing so many kind of defeat the purpose of a spellcaster being special and powerful if they are common. I am of course not counting races with high magical aptitudes like fairies and elves.

Spellcasters aren't going to be special and and rare in Felarya though.

Felarya is saturated in magic. Its a part of everyday life there. Most of the people who were born and raised there ARE going to know magic of some kind, even if it is just something basic and simple. It is just the nature of the world. Extremely powerful spellcasters, like Voidfingers and Telekline, and the Magiocrats....they would be a bit more rare. But I imagine most native Felaryans will know some simple magic of some kind.

Just like how someone coming from a technologically advanced world likely is not going to know any magic, or may even believe magic to be a thing of myth and legend...but they will have technology to help them.

Magic is an energy field, and if you are exposed to it long enough, you learn to feel it...to bend it...and eventually, to use magic of your own. People native to Felarya have been exposed to that from birth, so they are going to be much more magically inclined than someone coming from another world that had little or no magic.

It may be so, but it still look like there are way more mages than fighters and it makes things stale. Maybe magic is more rich, but I don't see it as making you more apt at being good at channeling it. I doubt many has the patience and willpower to pursue many years of study and research to cast the most basic prestidigitation. But my main thing is, about 70% of the characters I've read so far are a mage of some sort. I'm seeing this as stale as I would like to see how non-mages survive in stories. It may be background stuff, but as a reader, I am growing jaded to see that any character with a name is a caster of some sort. I would like to see a bit more variety, but so far the rule of thumb sounds like: if the character has a name, then there's a 90% chance it's going to be a spellcaster of some sort.

By the way Cliff, you do realize your comparison is channeling magical energy vs physical application? They're two completely different things. You don't channel magic more easily if you are bigger, and the wiki flat-out says that a fairy's magic capacity doesn't change when growing or shrinking.

rcs619 wrote:

Fairies are affected by scaling just as much as everyone else. When they shrink smaller, their magic, strength and speed all scale down with them.

So, in regard to this: How much weaker do you say a Fairy's shrinking spell-powers become during a change in size? A common example of a spell-type most Fairies have (being able to shrink "prey"), that can have a readily established limit (for instance, I believe the max for an average power fairy was 4m creatures). When they shrink, do the shrinking powers drop to, say, only dog-sized beings capable of being shrunk? Or, if the 4m is their limitation when a human in size (or roughly human, at least), do they get the power to shrink Giant Nagas when they go Giant (which would theoretically be around the middle-tier of their power, if at human-size they can shrink approx. 3-4m tall beings)?

rcs619 wrote:

If Crisis got shrunken to human size somehow, she wouldn't still be able to break boulders with her tail. That kind of stuff is affected by scale, and changes with it.

The difference is one is physical capabilities, and one is not. A reason I'm iffy on the size changing is that it means that even a simple "Size +50%" spell leads to a notable increase in spell power & duration. If Karbo's confirmed this point somewhere (that size = power), I'll concede the "size =/= power" point as false, but then my question on things such as Fairy shrinking magic remains (unless it's stated to be the same regardless of size, in which case that proves that at least specific types of magic are impossible to aid through size, and can only be modified through other means).

Until then, however, it'll remain a difference in opinions.

rcs619 wrote:

I think the key word there would be Arch-Mage. Someone who has centuries of magical training and is among the upper tier of all mages. Plus, that image is extremely old, and likely outdated by new rules and restrictions in modern Felarya.

My apologies, I got a few details wrong (and a few right).

Wrong: Description says "Mage", not "Arch-Mage". They're "manipulating some ancient and powerful" magics together, so it's not just the Mage doing the work.
Right: The mage does appear to have some importance in the process, wherein if the mage was practically null in the power chart would be like adding a small twig to a bonfire. Furthermore, the powers are still "powerful".

Considering it's on the wiki, I have a hunch it's still quite canon. The issue is more how much of the work is the Human Mage doing.

rcs619 wrote:

I don't think that is the case, or Voidfingers likely would have done that already.

I did say with a lot of safety limitations removed. It's a simple principle, though: Say you have a hole. Say you stick your arm in the hole. Now say that hole spontaneously de-exists while your arm's inside it. Your arm would, best-case scenario, be stuck. Worst case scenario, whatever filled the hole filled all the hole, even where your arm was inside it.

Problem being that it's hard to turn such a thing offensive. You can't very well center a portal spell on someone, and if someone's aware at all of this danger they're not very well going to stick their limb in it. Furthermore, there's the obvious limitation in that you can at most fit whatever will fit inside the portal-area: If you make a 1m diameter hole, you're not going to fit a 3m diameter (approx) hand through it. It can't be done. You might be able to shave off a 1m chunk of flesh, but that's about it, and in that case you're not doing anything particularly lethal.

rcs619 wrote:

Besides, it would make that kind of magic far too powerful. Portals need to be a type of support magic, not some uber-powerful offensive magic.

It isn't too powerful, really. It's sort of like a super-beartrap more than anything else (whether we're looking at the "caught in portal" or "slice n' dice" resolution when a portal closes on someone part-way through).

rcs619 wrote:

He probably cannot close his portals if there is mass still passing between them.

Again, that could be a very possible safety that might or might not be work-aroundable. If it is a physical impossibility to close a portal until a specific number of beings have passed completely through, and has some repulsing ability or whatever to prevent any more from interacting with it, then that would prevent any offensive / defensive use of a portal.

The rules of a portal determine if it could be used as a "weapon" or not.

rcs619 wrote:

I specifically said one-on-one. The only two things that could do that are someone getting a lucky shot with a rocket, or an extremely powerful mage, like an arch-mage or a Magiocrat.

In this case, I'm assuming we're speaking someone with mundane gear with typical human limitations. A standard assumption, but I could handily see some humans who aren't Arch-mages or armed with that fancy tech dealing with a Giant Predator.

rcs619 wrote:

Nope. There need to be limitations on the portals. The amount of magic it takes to make a portal probably increases exponentially with size. A portal mage like Voidfingers could probably make openings large enough to drive vehicles through, but probably not much bigger than that before the strain starts to get too much.

Which would practically limit the injuries / trapping to limbs, if portals can even be used in such a manner.

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You don't channel magic more easily if you are bigger, and the wiki flat-out says that a fairy's magic capacity doesn't change when growing or shrinking.

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So, in regard to this: How much weaker do you say a Fairy's shrinking spell-powers become during a change in size?

Both of these are kind of related.

The important thing to remember about a fairy's size-shifting is that, technically, a Fairy NEVER actually changes size. Their size-shifting is a form of dimensional magic. The Fairy itself never grows or shrinks, they just change their scale in relation to the universe. This change in scale also changes the relative power of their magic as well. A Fairy's magic doesn't grow "stronger or weaker" with size, it stays exactly the same. It is the scale that changes.

Let's say a Fairy is human-sized and creates a fireball the size of a soccer ball to her (football, whatever). If she makes herself 4 inches tall, the same fireball is tiny, and would do very little damage to a human. If she makes herself 70ft tall, then the same fireball would be several meters across and would be able to burn a fairly large area, from a human perspective. The fireball is exactly the same the whole time...it is just its scale that is altered.

Keep in mind that the actual size-changing magic seems to be completely different from most other forms of magic, which is why it remains constant no matter the size of a fairy. Whether she is tiny, human-sized or giant, she can only alter the size of creatures up to a certain point. This is likely based on the mass of the creature/object, and the amount of energy required to alter it probably increases exponentially with size. This is why a Fairy can shrink humans, backpacks, clothes, food, tigers, crocodiles and so on...but could never shrink a Kensha Beast. It is just far too large to be affected. I wouldn't be suprised if the target's magical field has some affect as well, which would mean that an extremely powerful mage could be semi-resistant to it, and maybe hold off its effects long enough to launch some kind of counter. Of course, this would be an arch-mage, or a Magiocrat. I doubt even Isolon Fist battlemages could even come close to doing something like that.

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Portal stuff

Hmm, in special situations, I could see the portal-blade technique being possible. That kind of ability may require a forced override of the process by which portals usually work, which means the mage would need to concentrate a lot harder than usual and expend more energy than normal to hold it in that state. This would turn it into more of a last-ditch, special circumstance type of ability, instead of something that would be used often.

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Which would practically limit the injuries / trapping to limbs, if portals can even be used in such a manner.

Yep. That would, if portals can even be used in such a way, limit the cutting to thinner limbs. Fingers, hands, arms and so on. You could still cause devastating damage, but there would be restrictions in place so someone couldn't just insta-decapitate a predator or something.

I could honestly see that ability being even more useful as a negotiation aid. If you lop of a predator's limb, there's going to be screaming, and blood, and all her friends from miles around coming to help. But if you can trap the limb, and hold it still...well...then, you could very well open up negotiations, since most predators ARE going to want to save their arm.

Thanks for discussing this, its been thought provoking. I'm not ashamed to admit that in my many years on this Earth, Felarya is my first and only real exposure to this magic stuff. I grew up on Street Fighter and DBZ
XP

Adjusting to this has been challenging, to say the least. My human characters' use of magic: Well basically, their civilization has innate elemental magic but require the use of crystals in weapon form to manifest their power. Each on them have the ability to manifest either Fire, Lightning, or Wind; but the element of their affinity is by far the strongest among them all. Without their weapons they only have their survival training and physical fitness to rely on. That will only get them so far in Felarya, I suspect. These people are also in the army so they move collectively. I'm not opposed to a predator mage being much more powerful than a smaller human because they're larger. It makes sense to me that a larger body has a higher capacity for magic at the lowest level, but when it comes to max potential I'm not sure size should have a definitive say in the matter.

Well, that's my take. I'm open to suggestions to refine the idea if there's a problem in there.

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It makes sense to me that a larger body has a higher capacity for magic at the lowest level, but when it comes to max potential I'm not sure size should have a definitive say in the matter.

Oh, it doesn't. Keep in mind, besides Fairies and Dridders, predators have little to no education outside of their parents or siblings. The only predator species with any kind of organization are Fairies, Dridders, Dryads (which tend to be stationary and not very magically inclined anyway) and Harpies (which are usually a more physically oriented race than a magical one).

Predator mages, for the most part, are going to be much less disciplined and not nearly as well trained as a human from a place like Negav. What they know of magic are things their parents showed them, or things they have just picked up over their lifetimes in the wilderness (keep in mind, a predator isn't even fully grown until age 40).

Humans are going to generally be far more skilled on a technical level than the average predator. I mean, in Negav for example, you have magical academies, libraries with books on magical techniques, training, history and so on. Humans are just far more organized and better trained in this kind of thing. The size difference just makes up for the difference in skill a lot of the time.

I think people like Vivian are going to be very rare amongst predators. A lot of them may have magic, but you're going to have very few truly elite mages. Most predators are probably going to have more basic magic, that their size helps make far more effective. Fairies are a bit more dangerous, since they often live in pack of ten or more, and have fairies of different skills and levels of experience to help them out. They're also one of the only other races that keeps books, and records of any kind, at least in the Fairy Kingdom.

What about Sphinxes? They do seem as taking knowledge in high esteem, so why wouldn't they educate their cubs?