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Shady Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Magic in use   Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:57 pm

For armor I think a brigandine is enough. I think the robe is really for image since anyone associate a robed person as a caster of some sort. It's like a tradition. As for the sword, just to say, modern and future weapons are a luxury only few locations have, so places like Nekomura have to cope with lesser technology. That's just me, but I'm pretty sure Negav pigeon-holed practical rifles for their military anyway. Back to the robes, maybe they have shorter hemlines?
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PostSubject: Re: Magic in use   Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:00 pm

Well, would it be far fetched for a suit of armor to be crafted by mages or .... magismiths? (you get the idea, XP)

I see it as a sort of artifact magic where the cumbersomeness of the armor is outweighed by its magical properties. Then again, I could be wrong.


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PostSubject: Re: Magic in use   Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:09 pm

Quote :
Actually, I think the complication's coming into the picture because we're talking about similar effects (Shrinking spells, and Fairy Size-Changing magic), and using terms interchangeable enough that text being applied to one instance is being instead applied to the other (for instance, the quoted passage you responded to was in response to a Fairy changing its own size, not someone else).

I use them interchangably because they are the same. The magic a Fairy uses to change her own size is the same type of magic she uses to change someone else's. It is a powerful form of dimensional magic that changes someone's scale in relation to the universe around them. That is why ONLY Fairies (For the most part. Angels and Demons can do it too, apparenty) can do it, and why other people can't just learn "fairy magic".

Quote :
Suddenly, he is shrunk down to 6" tall. He can no longer cast a basic magic missile (in this case, a roughly baseball sized orb of magical energy that can be thrown forward), without requiring intense concentration. Why? Why can he suddenly not use the magic-soaked nature of Felarya to cast such a spell readily?

He could still cast that spell just fine at a shrunken size. The magical attack would just be much tinier in scale, and only effective against tiny things. Magic scales with size. There is no concrete "you need this much magic"...thing, it is based on the caster. A tiny caster could still do spells just fine, they would just be very small scale, and relatively weak to larger creatures. A Neera could shoot a fireball at a human just fine, it just isn't going to do much because it is tiny. Being giant or tiny doesn't mean you have more magic, it just affects the scale of your powers.

Quote :
This interpretation seems to take magic casters as being a "filter", so to speak. The magic must flow through the spell caster to be acted upon. Such an interpretation would... explain, why we're having this debate.

I think that is the wiki explanation for fairy magic. Fairies have no "true" size, and don't actually grow or shrink when they use their magic. They use a unique form of dimensional magic to change their (or someone else's) scale in relation to the universe around them. Fairies never grow stronger, or faster, or more powerful magically...all that changes is their scale.

Quote :
When you say this, what exactly do you mean (see above confusion on how magic works as an example)?

Yeah, I was being a bit too broad there. I would imagine illusion magic falls into two types. Visual illusions, and mental illusions.

Visual illusions are not directly applied to someone else. Someone making a temporary body double, or using magic to disguise a trap...or even how Dryads cast an illusion over themselves to look like a normal tree while they are sitting still. Those would work just fine against people of larger scales.

Mental illusions, like Vivian is fond of, would be a bit tougher. These would actually be casted on a particular targer, altering their view of the world around them. You're right that it is fairly similar to a charm or enchantment. I think that these would be somewhat limited to the target's magical ability. People with stronger magic would be tougher to do this too, and could break through it easier. Scale probably would have an effect too. Vivian can cast these mental illusions of smaller creatures all day, but it would be very difficult for a human to do the same to, say, Fiona (Why would you want to though? O: She's a sweetheart). Could it potentially be done by a skilled mage? Probably, but it would be tough.

Quote :
Known being one of the key words there, and in her case the questionable content is wherein the cutoff is for the non-standard sizes. Giant Hybrids, seemingly, would be right out most of the time. But a Kensha "pup", about 16' tall? They're above the standard cut-off on averages, being about 3' above the size limit. However, they're just that: About 3' above the size limit, practically (if not certainly) under 25% a size increase. While proportionally, again, that's a bit more than a 25% size change (in terms of volume), the jump is nowhere near as severe as that from a bloodclaw to Vivian (which would be several orders of magnitude).

Yeah, the actual cutoff point is fairly vague and undefined. Honestly though, that isn't really an issue. It is more of a common sense thing. The ony reason a cutoff point is even mentioned is so that Fairies cannot shrink other giant hybrids, or other large Felaryan predators like Kenshas, Giant Flying Squid and Marsh Vipers. It is just a balance check for fairies so that they can't just use fairy magic to get out of ALL their problems.

Quote :
This would support a "magic filter" style of magic used, though in such a case their magic would change with scale changes (or we're working off the "cheating" principle, wherein a shrunken fairy has a several hundred times more efficient wing pair than normal, even though it would practically be much smaller).

I think that, given the fact that we are combining BOTH magic and size-shifting physics, we are never going to get a solution that answers all the issues. Either of those is a tricky subject all its own, really.

As for fairy wings, the magical focusing array theory seems the most plausible. We know that when their wings are seriously damaged, they lose their access to size magic, and their other magical abilities drop sharply. The idea of them storing magic in their wings is a bit silly...but using their wings as some kind of focusing array, to draw in extra amounts of magic to meet the huge power requirements of dimensional magic...that is a bit more plausible.

Quote :
So this would argue, then, that size does not matter in some magics' cases, but type used. A sort of "rock paper scissors" to magic, wherein one style of magic can trump over another style / resistance, whereas another would be trumped. Within reasonable limits, of course (A 1" rock not decimating a city-sized piece of paper).

Pretty much, yeah.

Quote :
Perhaps such might have a role in "forbidden spells", that people are generally told not to practice / bother with? The issue is not that the student is playing with fire, it's that they're playing with fire that absolutely refuses to be dispelled, and also completely ignores any attempt at a barrier / firebreaker. Would a description like that be applicable? Lores / types of magic which are naturally on such a different scale from other lores / types that messing with them without proper experience / knowledge is risky at best, cataclysmic at worst?

Oh, I imagine there are quite a few forms of "Forbidden magic" around. I think dimensional magic especially would be full of them. When you start messing with the mechanics of reality, weird and powerful things can probably happen. Curses probably hae some as well...spells so horrible that they have been banned from use altogether (Lesona probably has a few tucked away though, knowing her =P). There is probably an official magical "black list" kept by the Magiocrats. Spells that aren't allowed to be taught, or maybe even spells it is a crime to use on someone.

---

Quote :
Magic tomes? You better have that spell memorized before you come out. Tomes are for booklearning mages trying something complex.

Yeah, I tend to see magic is something fluid, quick and dynamic. A battle between two mages would be more akin to a gunfight than two guys standing still and slinging spells. Magical tomes would have their place, but yeah...only for the more complicated spells, rituals, etc. You'd probably need them for magical crafting and such, and maybe to help with alchemy.

Quote :
Relics, artifacts, gems, etc. - This would depend on the twin variables of how awesome is the effect and how big and heavy the thing is. A mage might have quite a few.

Don't forget magical weapons too. Like, take actinite for example. It generates an electrical charge when you infuse it with magic. If you could, for example, craft a piece of actinite into a blade...and give it to a skilled mage...well, then, you have a lightning-sword right there. The same could be applied to other minerals that are affected by various types of magic as well.

Quote :
So, in actuality, a Felaryan Adventurin' Mage would likely look nothing like the be-robed bookworms of lore. They would dress in outdoors clothes that are simple, but be indentifiable by being festooned with various small trinkets, charms and ornaments and perhaps having strange patterns on their clothing. Perhaps a little less well kept than the disciplined soldier types, being more focused on things in the ether.

I like that image, actually. Kind of has a rogue/adventurer mage kinda quality to it.

Quote :
Of course, we'd probably see some robed bookworm mages in Negav itself. Not the adventuring kind - the sort that do magical maintenance work on the city, research new spells and probably the ones who sell stuff to the aforementioned group.

Yepper. Gonna be magical scholars, and craftsmen, and rich magical dudes that just want to go "Hey, look at my fancy robes. Im rich bitches! Very Happy"

---

Quote :
Oh, yeah, and because practically everything in Felarya seems to be tailored so that armor doesn't matter.

Keep in mind, other humans are a common risk too. Negav has its fair share of thives and thugs...and bandits roam the area just outside Negav's walls to try and steal from adventurers who are fully loaded with supplies as they leave the city. While it may not do you much good against the wildlife, body armor of some kind would help you out a bit against other humans that may try to attack you. That is also why you see so many people carrying around swords, and daggers, and pistols. It is for protection against other humans.

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PostSubject: Re: Magic in use   Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:22 am

Stabs wrote:

PrinnyDood wrote:
I agree, to some degree, but on the other hand, Felarya seems to run on a toned-down version of Godzilla physics. After all, I remember in the manga Anna getting hit in the back with what appeared to be a grenade, and being annoyed but basically fine. While Belletia had a grenade go off in her mouth/throat, and was similarly in pain but mostly uninjured. Then again, I'm no weapon expert, so maybe I'm misunderstanding what 'military-grade' means. In any case, this is probably a topic for another time, and another thread.
I agree.

Cliff wrote:
Those were just standard anti-personel fragmentation grenades.

The explosive charge in those really is not that great. Nearly all of their killing power comes from the shrapnel and pressure waves that they put off. They are designed to kill soft, or very lightly armored targets. They really don't have any kind of penetrating power, at least, not enough to be anywhere near lethal to a full-grown pred.
As I told you before that can't be. If they were aware of what they were doing they couldn't POSSIBLY have brought useless grenades. If they weren't lethal, why'd they brought them? So as to risk killing themselves by accident in case of sucking too bad?
Just bringing up that Felarya doesn't and shouldn't run on any version of Godzilla physics.

Stabs should already know this from an MSN discussion but for the rest of you...

Those grenades were anti-personnel grenades.
Manga Spoilers:
 


On topic:

Quote :
Well, would it be far fetched for a suit of armor to be crafted by mages or .... magismiths? (you get the idea, XP)

I see it as a sort of artifact magic where the cumbersomeness of the armor is outweighed by its magical properties. Then again, I could be wrong.
The local Magical and Useful Survival Tools Inc. representative is ready to answer all your questions about their range of enchanted armor pieces and enchantment services.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic in use   Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:06 pm

I'm going to be perfectly honest: I'm multitasking like hell and barely skimmed the first page, let alone the rest. I did, however, do a Ctrl+F on all the pages to look for a few keywords for the point I wanted to bring up, and they weren't found. So I think this hasn't been said yet. If it has, I only ask that someone tell me nicely, and I will be sufficiently chastised.

Though I know perfectly well Felarya isn't D&D, there was one thing I'd like to consider to be the same between the two pertaining to magic. I've never played D&D, but I remember reading through a rulebook (don't ask what edition; I don't know) and spending a bit of time looking at different classes. I noticed a difference between wizards and sorcerers: wizards used more structured and practiced spells, whereas sorcerers were more intuitive and free-form with their casting. The difference was that wizards, being naturally less talented at magic, had a stricter methodology and used techniques that were proven and effective. They're the ones using the same spells their teacher taught them, or poring through old books for arcane knowledge. Sorcerers were more prone to relying on an understanding of their own magic, and improvised.

Most of my characters are more like sorcerers, but many others I've seen take a more wizard-like approach to magic, using the idea of set spells (like "Fireball" or "Thunder"). I'd imagine most casters in Felarya, especially humans who "learned" their magic instead of it being instinctive, would use a blend of both styles. Most human mages would be closer to wizards, with the capability to slightly modify any given spell or perhaps use it in an unorthodox fashion. This is especially true of someone who has studied a variety of disciplines.

World of origin would strongly impact this. Someone from a high-tech/low-magic world would be less likely to use magic at all, but may perhaps learn some by approaching it as a science (this also goes for any world that views magic as a science [shameless plug]such a Geha, Zion and Co.'s homeworld[/shameless plug]). A world with an environment almost as magical as Felarya's but is much less dangerous would probably produce mages who grew up learning magic and use it a little more naturally and instinctively. A mage from a violent and war-torn world would probably be more ferocious and offensive than one from a peaceful one. As for native Felaryans, the variance of cultures guarantees a grab-bag of magical approaches.

So, when asking what an average mage should be capable of, there are a lot of factors to consider.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic in use   Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:16 pm

The D&D Wizard use the Rule Magic thing in the wiki. The Sorcerer uses the Innate Magic clause. Given how rich in magic Felarya is, it's not surprising that Rule Magic is more common since a lot of accomplished wizards would pass their knowledge down to the next generation so they stand a good chance of survival.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic in use   Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:49 am

Malahite wrote:
Furthermore, the application of physical strength scaling = magical strength scaling seems to be consistent. To make a further example of what I mean: Say there's an arch-mage. He has been studying magic for some 200+ years on Felarya, has trained in several schools and seen the coming and going of several named Predators (named insofar as in they'd be "plot important", so to speak) and politicians.

Suddenly, he is shrunk down to 6" tall. He can no longer cast a basic magic missile (in this case, a roughly baseball sized orb of magical energy that can be thrown forward), without requiring intense concentration. [...]
...lol wut?

Slow down, I'm stone. Did that ever happen? Because if it did- I totally missed it!

Malahite wrote:
Isn't that the purpose of this debate? To assume that the magic exists, runs in a particular manner, and as such what one might expect in such a situation on the average mage?
Come to think of it, you're right- I keep going in circles and finding nothing because I have long refused to make that assumption. Then again, I don't believe we have the freedom to make that assumption. If Felarya's still supposed to welcome people from now on, they'll have their own ideas about magic. I don't think we can afford to define it and substract that degrees of freedom from our future friends.

Though... want to look at the canon? Lookit this and know my pain.
Wiki wrote:
t's often very difficult to characterize the magic that is used on Felarya, due to the fact that many people from a variety of worlds have their own ways of drawing upon this force. A fire elementalist native to Felarya and a fire elementalist who has just arrived through a portal may approach magic in entirely different ways.
I'm trying to stick to that. And it's driving me NuTTercAsE.

Malahite wrote:
Or is this a wish-list instead of a proper forum of debate / theory, wherein we just put out spells (regardless of how much they fit / "practical" reasons, seeing as "practical" is relative to a set of rules / accessibility that can be compared to) that we'd want to see on average persons?
"Wishlist" is, come to think of it, the best description of what I was after. Plausibility is, as I've stated, something I don't believe we can afford to judge spells on. We can only judge them by so-called balance and practical reasons, otherwise we'd lose compatibility with future writers who have their own ideas.

Malahite wrote:
This type of thought leads to stories wherein someone's considered a magical genius, because they realized that light + targeting light on eye = blinded predator. These people, in the fictional realm, apply the magic (which is very real to them) to survive, and are going to be looking for any sort of edge that they can. Without a set of rules, the type of "edges" you can expect are very minimal. In most rules, creating "only" sound is a much simpler task than creating "only" fire, for an example, or more accurately only light > only fire.
But applying another set of rules, that falls apart- and neither is more valid than the other. By thermodynamical rules, no process can waste no energy as heat- and thus, light should be more difficult to do alone than fire. I know Ghost sound is lower level than Silent Image, and Silent Image is lower level than Permanent Image, but that's not helping our case.

Malahite wrote:
Even working off basic patterns? Making a general shape? It's not like you're programming each and every photon being repelled non-stop. I mean, heck, consider putting a red lens up to a flashlight: look at what changes were made to the end of the beam. That didn't require the universe grinding down to a halt because the light was artificially changed at the end, does it?
No, but if you make basic patterns and a general shape, your illusion would look, at best, like CGI. Darn if it wouldn't be funny- but I doubt it'd be convincing.

Malahite wrote:
I dunno, saying something that can do over 1000 trillion operations a second (to put that into perspective, the number is: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000) can't ever make a human-like image in a reasonable timeframe is a bit odd. Especially considering we've artificially made holograms / optical illusions (if crude ones) already, without using said computers.
Yes. But that was an optic trick, in the presence of said images. Even making a mouse's going to be difficult without a computer, unless you have a mouse close by to film. If you try to make a mouse from scratch, or just from some images in your head, that's where a thousand trillion operations in a second come into play. But if you already have a mouse, what are you making an illusion for? Just throw the darn mouse at them already!

Malahite wrote:
To my understanding, such has not been directly contradicted by Karbo saying "You're wrong", meaning that as far as canon goes I'm still in the clear (even if such will never be published).
As such, we can't assume either. I won't say flashy is easier, you don't say subtle is easier. I think it'd be easier to blow myself up than to actually make a rocket, for instance. I'll admit, If I wanted to make something subtle with magic, I couldn't, because all the subtle matters I've ever tried before were metagaming. I've never found a narrative translation for "+1 to attack and damage". You're still using a sword, what has changed? On the other hand, explosions or paralyzation are concise and clear, as is "the rope animates and moves as directed by you". That's what I meant by flashy- noticeable and clearly magical.

Malahite wrote:
Begging the question, partially. "A Predator is more powerful a spellcaster than a human by default." "Why?" "Because a Predator is more powerful a spellcaster, obviously."
Because it's HUGE. It's gotta be scary and dangerous, or else, things are going to get silly. Don't waste time wondering why, just carry it to its logical conclusion. Can you see a predator's spells losing to a human's? Do you like where that leads? If not, I'm right. If yes, I'm wrong.

Malahite wrote:
To sum up what I was going to say here (since the initial post was much harsher): If you scaled straight up, Vivian should be capable of stuff like making nuclear explosions, unless you assume that proportionally she's a worst magic caster than a human of the same rank. You cannot apply volume / size changes as linearly to magic as you can physics (and even then, that's iffy as there's the examples of "Spider movement speed" which would have Dridders running around at potentially hypersonic speeds).
Can't we think of it like a multiple variable polynomial where mass has a linear impact and skill a quadratic one, both being independant of each other, so that mass only has a real impact when there's a LOT of it? I hadn't seen magic shrinking magic before, ever. And the only neera wizard I've ever read about had man-sized magic. Strange, huh?

======

A'rright here's the thing. I've realized, thanks to Malahite, that as long as I keep adamant that we can't ever possibly know anything, I'm not going to get anywhere, neither myself, nor anyone. Let's try to compromise... we won't define magic itself and the way it works, but we can try to agree (or argue) there should be some uses, or systems thereof, that are more common than others. It's at times like this that I feel Sean's deviations on Shinnos disciplines are something else than a contagious waste of time that was "heavily borrowed" from the SRD. A crime I'm guilty of myself, too. I wouldn't have come up with a fireball myself, ever.

As for where my purposes take me, I suppose I've got no choice but to start checking MUST. Items are consistently themselves. Wizards... it looks like they aren't. Speaking of Telekline and Voidfingers, I've got the impression that the best way to picture what they can do is to imagine them both masked, muscular and ripped as hell, wearing their underwear on the outside, [s]playing Cho Aniki[/s] fighting crime. Watch out, evildoers! It's Curtain Cat and Massage Man*!

*Pity Anna wasn't in the mood, don't you think?


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PostSubject: Re: Magic in use   Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:15 pm

Quote :
Quote :
Wiki wrote:
t's often very difficult to characterize the magic that is used on Felarya, due to the fact that many people from a variety of worlds have their own ways of drawing upon this force. A fire elementalist native to Felarya and a fire elementalist who has just arrived through a portal may approach magic in entirely different ways.

I'm trying to stick to that.
Word.

As for my Shinnos Disciplines, this is really just a reminder of how my own guys work and to save space when I write their profiles.

The thing about magic is that we will never in any way reach a definite, set in stone way of how it operates and how to approach spellcasting. However, the wiki pretty much gave us all we need to use magic: where a mage's power originate. I of course refer to Rule Based Magic, Theurgy, Innate Magic, Wild Magic, Alchemy, Ley Line Magic, and Device Magic. That's really all we need. How the mage in person perceives and approach magic as well as what he call school/branches of magic should be left open to the author and character in order to give Felarya that "Link between worlds" feel.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic in use   Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:12 pm

If we really wanted to be wordy and specific, we could always come up with our own ideas for a kind of magic that works, critique it, and add it to a massive list of examples.

This is not taking into consideration the level of power between a giant and a tiny, that has been contested for ages on this forum.
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