Medicine!

I need information on plants, herbs, or medicines. Specifically, I want to develop an idea for a plant that can be used, or turned into a medicine, to counteract poisoning caused by ingesting harmful metals, something that's difficult to get to and might have other people looking for it for other reasons. ^.^ Can you help me out?

(Assuming Felarya context)
Well the metal poisoning would have to be pretty bad to overcome the healing effect.

As for plants, have you checked the wiki first?

I don't think much Fauna / Flora in this field has been addressed, as most of the time Felarya's plights are either "You gonna die in three... two... just kidding you only had two." or "Yeah, it's not going to kill you. Thank the soil."

In regard to ingesting harmful metals... just what are you looking to fix? If you mean injuries from eating solid metal objects and the typical problems thereof (see: Impaling or slashing apart internal organs), you're not going to get any medicines beyond perhaps a painkiller to last you while Felarya heals you. If you mean toxic metals that'll poison the bloodstream, well, keep in mind the first sentence. If not fatal but for a long while debilitating, I'm not quite sure of what medicines could be used.

However, if you're a Giant Predator, you'd very probably need a lot (I mean almost kilograms of the stuff) to have any effect: If you're about 15 times the height, you're about 3375 times the mass. Now, while this doesn't scale linearly, it still stands to reason that if you have 3375 times the mass, a 200mg "dosage" for a human is going to come into double or even triple-digit grams for you. In this regard, you'd need something very potent (perhaps something that amplifies the effect of an herb), a very large herb (which also stands to be, since you can't very well expect Crisis to start picking at a normal sized fern with any degree of success), and / or so on.

Since I'm assuming this is a Giant Predator you're talking about, for now you'd probably just want to have them wait out the few days / weeks of sickness, unless they have some Prey-sized beings (or a couple Fairies) around who're willing to help them, and in such cases you'd probably be better off having a mage work on them anyways.

If you're working on a Prey-sized character, though, who needs the medicine...

Well, this is a bit of a problem. Apparently, most of the "heavy metal" poisoning cures I can find are from synthetically generated products, and not naturally occurring / produced. Many of them are even "recent" developments, within the past 100-or-so years. In this case, trying to have a Deluran or Miratan give you some medicine might work best, since they could very probably synthesize it.

Wiki wrote:

However, while the soil can help guard against some types of harmful things, there are those it cannot. Among these are parasitic and fungal infections, poisons, venom, curses, hexes, and morning breath.

The soil is "heal wounds and illness". It apparently does nothing to poison.

The healing effect will not neutralise poisons. However it will mitigate the effects of weaker ones, as the body will heal the damage and process the poison. The healing effect boosts the organism's immune system as well as healing it directly. The immune system is what deals with poisons.

Therefore, a poison will have to be great enough to overcome all these to have any noticeable effect. Of course, if the poison cannot be processed (as is the case with some poisoning, particularly heavy metal poisoning) as soon as one leaves Felarya, the symptoms will manifest.

It doesn't say anything about poisons. This is something people are assuming. In fact, the "there are things it cannot guard" thing pretty much implies that there are substances and such that isn't affected by the soil in any fashion whatsoever.

My previous post is based off the following logic:

1. Poisons cause damage to the body.
   The healing effect repairs damage to the body.
   
   
2. Neutralising poisons is the job of the body's immune system.
   Part of the healing effect is a "great boost" to the body's immune system.

Therefore, complex organisms in Felarya are immune to the symptoms of weaker poisons.
(Weak poison is relative to the individual).


Please, explain the flaw in my logic.

If the soil give such a boost to the immune system that it make someone pretty much immune to disease, by that logic, you would be pretty much immune to poison, unless it killed in seconds.

Sean Okotami wrote:

If the soil give such a boost to the immune system that it make someone pretty much immune to disease, by that logic, you would be pretty much immune to poison, unless it killed in seconds.

There is a great difference between the reduction of the effects of something and the outright cancellation of it. I think what they've been trying to say is that since the inherent healing properties of Felarya's soil have been explicitly stated to be boosting to the immune and restorative systems of organisms, it can be presumed from this that such things as poisons would be easier to recover from as a result. It is a logical conclusion and I'm not seeing why you seem so intent upon fighting against that here.

What it seems to me you're attempting to do is rule anything not directly said by the wiki as implausible, which is in itself not a very open minded approach to the issue.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

My previous post is based off the following logic:

1. Poisons cause damage to the body.
   The healing effect repairs damage to the body.
   
   
2. Neutralising poisons is the job of the body's immune system.
   Part of the healing effect is a "great boost" to the body's immune system.

Therefore, complex organisms in Felarya are immune to the symptoms of weaker poisons.
(Weak poison is relative to the individual).


Please, explain the flaw in my logic.

Yep, pretty much this.

It has been established that the healing factor greatly enhances the immune system. If a poison is weak enough, the immune system neutralises it. Strong enough poisons would certainly work, like various neurotoxins, but weaker stuff is probably just going to make you very ill for a while.

Then explain why there is a mention of substances that it cannot protect from, and among those is poison? Also, I find that "strong enough to overcome it" pretty ridiculous, since by that logic, you could get a disease on Felarya if it's strong enough to overcome the healing. Keep in mind, if the mention of afflictions that the soil doesn't offer protection from, I probably wouldn't question it. However, such a mention exist and state that it won't guard you from poisons. It doesn't state that it has to be strong enough either, so I see it as being unaffected by whatever force boost your system. Remember that it's boosted by magic and it doesn't operate on the same level as real life physics and such.

Most of the poisons mentioned that could do you serious harm on Felarya are naturally synthesized in the local flora and fauna. Assumably, evolution would have allowed for a server increase in the potency of venoms in those organisms in order to make them a viable defense or hunting strategy whatsoever.

Of course, this does not explain why Felarya is not home to super-diseases due to its increased level of competitiveness. My best guess would be that diseases "lost" the evolutionary arms race - they could not evolve enough to keep up with the healing factor. There probably are bacteria on Felarya, but only those that exist in symbiotic relationships, like those that live in the human bodies. On Felarya, this would be the best bet for these sort of simple organisms to survive. Those who try to be contagious would not have made it very far.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Then explain why there is a mention of substances that it cannot protect from, and among those is poison? Also, I find that "strong enough to overcome it" pretty ridiculous, since by that logic, you could get a disease on Felarya if it's strong enough to overcome the healing.

It's my belief that the listing of certain substances against which the healing factor is limited in ability to prevent or heal effectively is to balance the fact that such a thing is, in the first place, rather capable of rendering some characters invulnerable to an extent. Nobody likes the idea of a character being able to justifiably run around and fall under things that would almost certainly prove fatal even in the context, and because of this there would arise the need for such things.

Now, it might sound contradictory given the previous argument but more minor poisons are such a thing that I believe should be negated to a degree. This is of course following the same logic employed in arguments stating that the boosting of the immune system would have such an effect. Furthermore, you must understand that diseases and poisons can't necessarily be pushed into the same group with the same rules being applied. Poisons are foreign chemicals or substances that when introduced to a body interfere with it's ability to maintain homeostasis. Meanwhile, diseases aren't always foreign in origin and can be caused by inherent imbalances in the body. Therein lies the difference. Because of this, your stating that the logic applied to the poison argument could be used also for diseases simply doesn't hold water because the two are in many instances entirely different things.

But I'm just interjecting my standpoint upon the matter, whatever.

Well, you proved my point warrior: poisons and diseases aren't the same thing. For a while, the effect of the soil was simply accelerated natural healing and an immunity to diseases. However, then came an explanation on how it worked, that it magically reinforced your immune system. However, I believe the concept of the "heal faster, untouched by diseases" still apply, and that the mention of substances that it doesn't protect against is simply a reminder that while there is an explanation on how it protects you from illness, you still have to worry about being poisoned and infected by parasites among other things.

And adding to what JT said: what exactly would a weak poison be in Felarya since pretty much any manufactured, often by assassins, overcome the effects of the soil.

Don't forget that part of the lethality of a poison is in the dose.
I'd imagine that many plants and organisms that use poisons as a self defence mechanism just use greater quantity. It seems to me that it would be the easiest way to overcome the effect.

As for assassins, I reckon they'd go to an alchemist.

Or to simply say it clear and simple: Any mention of a poisonous plant, animal or substance pretty much mean that the substance itself will affect you despite the soil. After all, the Law of Conservation of Details dictates that if you mention that something is poisonous, then it's poison will have a clear effect. So there's not much point in worrying about "too weak/too strong", since if something in Felarya is classified as poisonous, then it's going to be visibly weaken you. There would be no point in saying that something is poisonous if its poison did nothing.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Or to simply say it clear and simple: Any mention of a poisonous plant, animal or substance pretty much mean that the substance itself will affect you despite the soil. After all, the Law of Conservation of Details dictates that if you mention that something is poisonous, then it's poison will have a clear effect. So there's not much point in worrying about "too weak/too strong", since if something in Felarya is classified as poisonous, then it's going to be visibly weaken you. There would be no point in saying that something is poisonous if its poison did nothing.

After talking about this with a few other people, i figured I'd repeat this...

We've been saying this for ages, i don't get why there is such a fuss now. It has been accepted that the Felaryan healing factor works by super-enhancing the body's immune system and bodily healing processes. Harmful bacteria and Viruses can exist in Felarya, likely brought in from offworld, but no one gets sick because they are just not strong enough to overwhelm the immune system. That's what a cold is, an intrusive organism overwhelming your immune system. Your body is killing invaders constantly, but they only get out of control every now and then.

We even made a list of things that the healing factor has trouble with...

1: Curses, since they are magic.

2: Parasites, since they are complicated and the immune system can't just kill them outright.

3: Poisons and Venoms, depending on type and dose. There are dozens of different types of poison and venom. Some just make you ill, others kill you in minutes. Whether or not the healing factor can save you is very situational. A ratttlesnake bite on Earth may kill you, a rattlesnake bite in Felarya will probably make your very ill but not kill you. A Box Jellyfish sting on Earth or Felarya is going to kill you quick, because it is just such a powerful neurotoxin.

Some creatures on Felarya have poison, so it does work. Poison is what makes a Kensha pack so dangerous. They're only the size of a medium-sized dog to a giant predator, but their claws pack a potent venom, and they attack from all sides, clawing you up and putting so much venom into you that you just fall down and die.

Oh good something about chemistry.

A few things to note before reading, "Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison." - Paracelsus.
It has been established that the healing factor is not instantaneous and only henances what the body can do itself.

You have two types of biological poisoning, acute and chronic. Acute poisoning is of course when you receive a harmful or leathal dose in a short ammount of time; such as a snake bite or consuming cyanide; symptoms develop in close relation to the exposure depending on the actual leathal dose. Chronic poisoning is long-term repeated or continuous exposure to a poison where symptoms do not occur immediately or after each exposure; usually the substance is bioaccumalitive and thus you build up a leathal dose over time. These are just the two different types of exposure to posions; one could still die of acute exposure to a substance that generally causes chronic poisoning if the does is high enough to cause it, mercury and cyanide are good examples of both an acute and chronic poisons.

However the mechanisms of poisoning also play a role; most natural substances which generally cause acute poisoning will not cause chronic poisoning as they do not accumulate in the body. They are either metabolised by the body and become biologically active/inactive or set out damaging the body upon exposure. Chronic poisons are very danergous as the body cannot metalolise them easily, if at all, hense they bioaccumulate.

Here I'll explain the limitations of the healing factor when it comes to poisons while referancing the points I stated above and explain the need for medicines. On Felarya acute posioning will of course be the most common as it is used as a natural method of hunting and defense; most natural poisons will be fast acting neurotoxins. They are extremely dangerous due to the small harmful/leathal dose and fact they are quickly metabolised into the biologically active poison, some substances considered poisonous are not toxic themselves rather reactions in the body result in them becoming toxic, or are already biologically active when they enter the body. The only real delay with neurotoxins is the route of exposure; though the general rule is the quicker it enters the blood stream the quicker it sets to work. As these types of poisons are fast acting and the difference in does between being harmful to being leathal is very small, the healing factor is going to be a moot point as the mechanism of poisoning is just too quick; if you pass a certain threshold you will die. Now not all exposures to neurotoxins are fatal. Depending on their mechanism of action, some will only cause temporary paralysis while others are just not toxic enough or the concentration of the dose is too low to be fatal. For those poisons which don't kill you, the healing factor will of course decrease your recovery time, so if you were poisoned by something that just causes paralysis the effect will ware off quicker unless an excess of unreacted poison is still in the body which could result in the paralysis setting in again even after the original poisoning has worn off.

In terms of acute poisoning I used neurotoxins as a example as they will probably be the most common kind on Felarya. The limitations of the healing factor will hold true for all acute and some cases of chornic poisoning.

Factors of poisons that limit the effect of the healing factor:

The dose: All posions have a certain threshold where by the concentration in the body can cause harmful or leath effects; for exmpale the leathal dose for cyanide is very low, and the leathal does for most nuerotoxins is even lower, while the leathal does for something like copper sulfate is rather high. If you exceed the leathal does, thus there is an increased concentration of the posion in your body; the poison will react quicker with the corrosponding chemicals in the body as explained by the rate law of chemical reactions. Another factor is time of expsoure to the poison if it is present in the enviroment, the shorter the time of exposure the higher the concentration is needed to have any harmful or leathal effects. This is what leads to acute poisoning. An example I use is chlorine gas; chlorine is rather nasty but it isn't that toxic when compared to the likes of hydrogen cyanide or neurotoxins. If you are exposed to a conentration of around 30 parts per million of chlorine in the air it will cause caughing and vomiting, your eyes would already be burning at this point, above 60 ppm and the concentration of chlorine will be high enough to damage the lungs. Stay in such an enviroment for long enough and you will die quite horribly, but if you limit your exposure you will survive and the healing factor can start to repair any damage. However if the concentration of chlorine in the air was increased to 1500 ppm a few deep breaths will kill you as the concentration of the chlorine in your lungs is enough to cause fatal damage very quickly. Natural poisons are generally administered in that the victim receives a leathal does or several times the leathal does in a very short ammount of time; this is so the posion can be effective.

The mechanism: The rate of the mechanism or pathophysiology depends on the does of the poison, however the mechanism of the posion can determin the does; for example a neurotoxin works by blocking the receptors of ion channels in nerve cells preventing neural signals from being recieved while chlorine destorys cells by reacting with the water inside them to form hydrochloric and hypochlorous acids. The neurotoxin stops the body from functioning by disrupting/destroying the nerve system thus shutting the body down while chlorine causes physical damage to cells which results in blood filling the lungs. Some poisons like carbon monoxide and flourine have multiple mechanisms in which the effect the body. As only a small ammount of neurotoxin is needed for the mechanism of action, the does is very small thus only a small concentration of poison is needed. Some poisons are also rapidly metabolised thanks to their chemical structure once ingested allow for quick access to the blood stream thus the dmage they cause can occur very quickly. Substances can also be metabolised to become biologically active, others such as chlorine, carbon monoxide, cyanide, and most nerve agents are already biologically active when they enter the body. Poisons which are slow to metabolise and slow to enter the blood stream are best countered by the healing factor as it can set to work on restoring the limited damage caused before more of the poison enters the blood stream; this would limit the effect of chornic poisoning on Felarya. However bioaccumulation is a problem due to the poison still being present in the body, as the body is slow to deal with the poison the healing factor can only repair any damage caused. If enough of the poison accumulates it can still be fatal.

The need for medicine: As the healing factor has its limitations when it comes to poisons medicine or antidotes will be needed to speciffically counter certain poisons be it something that acts very quickly do deal with a fast acting neurotoxin or something you take readily to remove a bioaccumulative poison.

I forgot about the healing properties of the soil. DX I'll have to redo my whole story now.

FurryKurry wrote:

I forgot about the healing properties of the soil. DX I'll have to redo my whole story now.

Not really. As long as something is mentioned as poisonous, it's going to have an effect. It's pointless to say that something is venomous and the venom itself does nothing at all.

Well, Cliff explained it pretty well. The soil just enhances the immune system, so it's not that easy to get sick.

I don't see why we're still talking about it.

Pendragon wrote:

Well, Cliff explained it pretty well. The soil just enhances the immune system, so it's not that easy to get sick.

I don't see why we're still talking about it.

Simple; because while the body can fight infections caused by pathogens, bacteria or viruses. With pathogens the body has much more of a chance fight the infection before the onset of symptoms due to the realitivly long incubation period which can range from a day to several weeks. However it is a lot more difficult to deal with poisons which are just molecules; esspecially those which can kill with an acute dose or those the body cannot metabolise and excrete such as heavy metals. If you have ingested some mercury the healing factor will repair the damage done to the body, mercury tends to acculumate in the brain, however it will do nothing to remove the mercury and if enough of it acculumates it may very well kill you. Likewise if you get jabbed full of neurotoxin chances are that the neurotoxin will harm or kill you before the healing factor becomes a factor. That is not to say it is completely redundent as I stated above in some causes of chronic poisoning the healing factor may be enough if the body can metabolise and excrete the poison before it a accumulates to leathal levels.

So, the way you present it Cauldron is that there's - in "gaming" terms - two bars:
1) Current poison level. Once it reaches a certain point, the buffs to healing don't matter and you're still gonna croak: Hence how some plants can kill you instantly with their poison, whereas others merely leave someone with a case of the "HRBALRAG!" for the next few hours.
2) Accumulated toxins. These are those that can be neutralized (temporarily) by the buffs to healing, but will not pass. If given sufficient time and not removed through other means (some type of purge, magical intervention, surgery, etcetera), will accumulate to a point that they become lethal / a constant source of toxin-related illness.

Got it about right?

Or we can be more efficient and classify how lethal a poison is on Felarya. Like any mention of a creature being able to inject venom that numb the entire body as it slowly stops the heart on Felarya is going to do just that. After all, that massive boost of healing is only on Felarya since the soil loses almost all of its power outside of Felarya. So if you mention poison on Felarya, it's faster to just say what are its effects when it infects you on Felarya.

Malahite wrote:

So, the way you present it Cauldron is that there's - in "gaming" terms - two bars:
1) Current poison level. Once it reaches a certain point, the buffs to healing don't matter and you're still gonna croak: Hence how some plants can kill you instantly with their poison, whereas others merely leave someone with a case of the "HRBALRAG!" for the next few hours.
2) Accumulated toxins. These are those that can be neutralized (temporarily) by the buffs to healing, but will not pass. If given sufficient time and not removed through other means (some type of purge, magical intervention, surgery, etcetera), will accumulate to a point that they become lethal / a constant source of toxin-related illness.

Got it about right?

I'd say so; the dose would determin the 'current poison level' yes, however different poisons have different harmful/leathal doses so that is something you'd need to be aware of.