Feedback on defensive tactics

Calling all lowlives and malintentionated people!


Once more, I'm coming for feedback on a certain issue. In this case, tactics.

Being it that I'm not a war machine, general or even a good chess player, generally I make tactics that sound like stuff out of a children's card game and just word them in a way that makes them sound INTENSE enough to make you want to suspend disbelief. Now, the thing is, for my Lessons series, I was planning on having a lesson on combat tactics. Only a short thing- I know I've got a tendency to make things just tl;dr, so I'm trying to be as brief as possible this time.

However, there's another issue- being brief is no problem for me, but I'd like to make tactics that are at least passable at first impression. And so, I'd like your feedback on whether these tactics are too easy to counter, or feel too unrealistic.

I'm being perfectionistic, of course- I know nobody who cares to be left unmolested by a predator would bother looking at my tactical ideas; this is mainly to satisfy my own ego, nothing more. Every instance of a predator felled so far I've found was not depending on tactics- except to some degree Aethernavale's S'ryne crusade against their local giant elves and other predators, using ambushes, pit traps, nets, and loads of poison, Frenchsnack's tomthumb assault against Vuni, Tiasha and her children, and Timing2's Quincy, with the duiker. Poor duiker, by the way.

Currently, those tactics are designed for those whose only advantage is picking the terrain- by passing only through that kind of terrain. Successful ambushes, or incursions, are a horse of a different color, you see. So far, I've devised the following responses. There was just too much material in the wiki to devise an individual response towards all of it. None of those things assume someone who can shoot a fly's wings while pointing against the sun at a distance of two miles in the mist, but it still assumes reasonable competence with the weapons involved (Hey! See those cans? Thirty feet away? I'll betcha I can shoot three in a row with this shotgun!).


One-guard-two-attack stance
Triple Response (three shooters)
Materials needed: Just give guns to all of them.
Terrain: Any.

One of the most basic responses, OGTA stance involves three people walking in a bent line. The central one watches the rear and sides, while the back and front watch their front. Anyone who attacks any of the three will have two people to worry about; whoever is attacked needs only concern themselves with dropping to the ground and parrying.

The basic premise of the one-guard two-attack stance is that albeit a gun is useless to defend you if you're surprised, it's not useless to defend someone else who's been surprised. It's important that whoever is attacked drops to the ground as soon as he gets a chance, thus freeing the firing range for their companions.

Aside from the obvious vulnerability of a simultaneous attack, this stance is rather sound against anything that doesn't attack from range and can be killed with a gun. Needless to say, this stance is useless against ranged attackers- it's meant only for use against wild animals.


Mongoose Pincer
Quad Response (4+ skirmishers, hopefully nimble and capable of handling a hurtful rifle.)
Materials needed: Four ranged weapons of any kind, capable of causing some amount of damage to a naga's flesh. Bodkins and a shortbow or AP ammo are best. Kind of overkill with heavy weapons.
Terrain: Forest. With trees.

[This technique relies on the fact that a naga has actually two speeds- the speed at which it strikes, and its actual movement speed. Though their strike speed is legendary, their actual movement speed has never been reported to be that high; it's not uncommon for nekos to escape nagas in most fics. Besides, I felt that pointing at the crotch would be... a low blow is not the word, but on bad taste. I'll pretend a naga's frontal genitalia is either indestructible or just a decoy organ, which'd explain why the guys don't show it: their real organs are somewhere in the snake part, and if you shoot at the ones showing you're not doing any damage]

Named so for the animal that iconically kills cobras, the mongoose pincer requires at least four people moving in a spread formation. This formation is supposed to provide the most adequate response in case of an ambushing naga striking at the group. If at least four people survive the strike without being swallowed in the act... they are to run away from the naga. Were she not to pursue, everything's okay and there's no need to use tactics. If she does pursue, though...

Following the slithering sound from behind them as they run, the team must spread in two groups. One group is supposed to split off and go around a tree, just as the naga's slithering brings her front sliding away from them: snakes zigzag, they don't move in a straight line. The other group is to go the other way around, and hopefully around a tree too. While a naga has two hands, both eyes point in the same direction.

The eyes seem like a good place where to attack for a swift kill, but this technique relies instead on attacking the tail, just after the fleshy rump that follows the waist. As the naga will only follow one group at a time, the other one can attack- freeing the other group to concentrate on avoiding her hands. If the naga reverses attention, the groups change roles, continuing to attack just under the rump, using the tree as an obstacle.

If the naga's tail is harmed, it should be unable to simply tear off the trees with its tail, not without tearing something in their center of gravity. The damage should eventually slow it down, even if it doesn't perform this mistake. In extreme cases, such as a rocket launcher with Cliff writing, it's even possible that the naga's just torn in half. In that case, be grateful it wasn't you.

Anticipated Counters:
Of course, this response relies on the naga pursuing after the strike. If she doesn't, however, it's more likely that she's expecting to be outmaneuvered (and plans on a hit-and-run tactic) than she's full. If she doesn't pursue, as soon as you're out of strike range you are to attack with all you have before she gets away (and she will): you can't risk that she might try to strike from a concealed position again at a later time! Give her wounds to look after, or at least a good scare!


Armored Pursuit Response
Single Response (One individual capable of handling heavy weapons, grenades, or in desperation, a shotgun)
Materials needed: A white phosphorus grenade, molotov cocktail, or flamethrower. In a desperate case, a shotgun loaded with a flamer shell might do.
Terrain: Any.
Recommended: Do this from the back of a moving vehicle. Seriously.

Intended mainly for tonorions and kenshas, the Pursuit Breaker is appropriate for any creature too strong and ferocious to wait for it to get shot to death. Basically, set its face on fire. Even if it suffers not from this attack, the fire should keep it from seeing or smelling clearly for a while. In the case of a tonorion, one would want to burn its legs too, so that it doesn't feel vibrations as clearly. After performing this operation, turn around and run past it. It's possible it was leading you to a trap, this goes double for kenshas and other pack hunters.

Actually, this technique functions rather well against any creature too tough to simply kill. That's also the case for spine beetles- as they're too strong to hit with a broad and thin volley of fire, one would have to spew fire on all of them! The ones on the front will keep the atmosphere unpleasant while the ones in the back run them over.

Anticipated Counters:
There's not much you can do if the creature doesn't keep to the reach of your flamer- and we're expecting it to be terribly fast, too. Don't run if it's not running- you have to go BEHIND it, it's not unthinkable that there's an ambush ahead. Even tonorions can set an ambush; always attack the ambusher, even when it doesn't pursue, unless it runs away. If it does, assume it's aiming for a hit-and-run tactic. Be very very scared.


Distance Attack Response
Single Response (Though you all should know it)
Materials needed: Nothing
Terrain: Any with obstacles at least three times as tall as you are.

This simple procedure involves singling out your foe and keeping at all times an obstacle between the two of you. It's effective for slug girls, echydins, and some species of giant frogs. As long as you've seen it before it's seen you, all you need to do is hide behind a tree, and move away so as to keep the obstacle between the two of you, being careful to duck behind other obstacles when the profile grows too thin.

If it has seen you, and it's an echydin, it's fighting time. Make sure there's always something between the two of you, until it's close enough that you can hurt it before it can decide what it wants with you (grenades are good for this purpose). Keep in mind some mermaids have very long tongues. I repeat, they have very long tongues. Stay away from rivers big enough to have a mermaid who thinks you're the best thing since sliced bread, or keep a tree between you and the river.

Anticipated Counters:
If whatever you're looking at is in movement, assume constant speed- if it changes bearing, or if it's downwind from you, you can assume it knows you're there [and in the case of slug girls, you know it knows]. It'll probably mimic your tactic, except it'll try to move towards you.

In that case, if it's a slug girl, jog away MINDFUL of your surroundings: their range is limited and it's more likely that you can get away that way. If it's an echydin, try to reduce the distance as much as possible (though this might sound counter-intuitive, it's best: distance will hurt you more than it'll hurt that buck-toothed fuzzy bastard), by putting yourself somewhere the concentration of obstacles is densest. By the time it shows itself, you're probably ready to kill it- or at least set it on fire.


Earth Mouth Response
Dual Response
Materials needed: Two ropes with both ends loose.
Terrain: Somewhere with roots.

Basically, if two people are walking one in front of the other, and both carry a rope, the one to fall into an earth mouth can have a friend to throw a rope at them and tie the other end somewhere, before reeling them back.

PROTIP: Leave the rope there. You're not the last person who'll need it.



However, I don't have an appropriate response for most predators, including but not limited to sphinxes, centaurs, harpies, dridders, mermaids, gravedigger, coulorme, titan chalemeon and steam scorpion. Mermaids seem like a lot of trouble to deal with, assuming you don't have anything otherworldly- if I move from flamers to napalm I'm going to start getting a little silly, this is the Isolon at best and on-and-off mercs at worst; not the effin' USA combined arms [that'd be just mean!]. Besides, it's just me, not Sun Tzu, and there's nearly nothing to be said on the issue of how to kill 100 foot long beasts, other than "stick them with a BIG harpoon right in the spiracle". For obvious reasons, this wouldn't work on giant mermaids, they do breathe underwater and they know to splash water on the decks, ram the ship to shift its balance, spyhop to know where the harpoons are placed, use a large stick to poke out the ballistas/cannons/130mm surface-to-surface batteries, etcetera.

I'm aware I've used rifles in one response while in others I've used flamethrowers, not to mention suggesting shortbows, when a flamethrower might always serve the purpose. That's because flamethrowers might be too much in some cases, and I'm trying to avoid the ending in the fairy lesson- six words: flashbang, flashbang, flashbang. I'm trying to rotate weapons a little this time around, make it a little less boring while not getting into an absolute logistics disaster either. Realism is nice, but enough is enough.

I really couldn't have called it better myself. I think the most important thing to remember are three simple rules: Preparation, Coordination, and Discipline.

Preparation: The best plan in the world won't help you if you don't have the right tools. Remember that a lot of things can be improvised, especially in Felarya. Fantastic materials abound. Also, knowing your terrain and the predators you'll likely encounter is good too.
Coordination: The others better know of the plan, too. Working like a lone wolf is much less effective than working together, especially against Kenshas, because trust me when I say that THEY will be working together.
Discipline: When things are looking bad, don't let the plan fall apart. Don't let panic overcome your rational thinking.

And those, kids, are the first three things you need to learn before any tactics are effective.

Pretty much what Zion said. The greatest strength humans have over giants is numbers and diversity. It's by sticking and working together that humans have been able to overcome impossible odds. Another thing: realize when a situation is hopeless and have a fallback plan prepared for such occasion. Even with the best laid out plans and tools, unexpected events (may or may not be caused by Murphy) can still occur and completely shift the situation against you. In which case, it's best to know when one is outmatched, or resistance would cause too many losses. Running away and admitting defeat is the bravest course of action in some situations.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Running away and admitting defeat is the bravest course of action in some situations.

Yes. Live to fight another day!

But an unorganized retreat is little more than a running buffet for preds. Maintain discipline!

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Sean Okotami wrote:

Running away and admitting defeat is the bravest course of action in some situations.

Yes. Live to fight another day!

But an unorganized retreat is little more than a running buffet for preds. Maintain discipline!

Run away! Run away! Run away! Run away!

Sean Okotami wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Sean Okotami wrote:

Running away and admitting defeat is the bravest course of action in some situations.

Yes. Live to fight another day!

But an unorganized retreat is little more than a running buffet for preds. Maintain discipline!

Run away! Run away! Run away! Run away!

The above will result in OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM.

Yeah, one does not simply walk into Mordor- er, Felarya.

You need a plan of action everywhere you go otherwise things will get messy.

You know, while browsing 40K quotes, I found a few that fit perfectly, or at least almost:

"You ask me how, for example, I would deal with a fortress. What can I say? Blast it? Burn it? Gas it? The list is endless. But the military man should never raise such questions. From the moment he enters the Chapter he is taught to deal with practicalities. What is the objective - capture or destroy? What troops do I have - Space Marines or native planet regulars? How are they equipped? What is known of the defenders? And so on. A military man avoids open questions, and resists himself to facts. This is a crucial difference; a question requires an answer, a set of facts has only a result. An answer raises further questions, but a result is indisputable."

"Always endeavour to fight the enemy on your terms. If you are powerful at close quarters then engage in dense terrain where your advantage will prove greatest. If you are superior at long range then fight the battle at a distance. If you have greater numbers then attack along an extended front. Use reserves to break through when the enemy's overstretched lines collapse. If outnumbered then concentrate your forces so that the enemy can fight only your best troops. No-one ever won a battle who failed to take advantage of his enemy's weakness."

"Do not throw your forces blindly into battle. Before committing your forces, examine the situation. Review your own strength, and that of your enemy. Remember your own objectives, and try to anticipate those of your opponent. Then select those of your troops best suited to the task in hand."

Actually, I have no military experience, but I'm a fair hand at tactics, chess, ect. These tactics are actually good for basic situations in the given parameters.

The mongoose pincher would need fairly heavy weapons, like assault rifles, to work, because it would need rapid firing and high-caliber bullets to do enough damage to slow a naga down enough for your average human to outpace. Snakes, and I'm assuming nagas, have a lot of muscles in thier tails, and it takes a lot of damage to even affect thier speed minimally.

And as for mermaids:

If you are in the water: You are dead
If you are on a boat that is either a) smaller than 100 feet or b) made of wood: You are dead.
If you are on a large steel or whatever-they-make-boats-from-these-days ship with weapons: Stay away from the railings, and make sure to tether yourself to something. Fire as you can. Probably the mermaid is going to wise up after one shot or even before that, and stay under while still able to screw with you by splashing, rocking, ect.
If faced with a) a leviathan mermaid b) a school of giant mermaids or c) Anko: Seriously, man, give up.

Stabs wrote:

I'm being perfectionistic, of course- I know nobody who cares to be left unmolested by a predator would bother looking at my tactical ideas; this is mainly to satisfy my own ego, nothing more. Every instance of a predator felled so far I've found was not depending on tactics- except to some degree Aethernavale's S'ryne crusade against their local giant elves and other predators, using ambushes, pit traps, nets, and loads of poison, Frenchsnack's tomthumb assault against Vuni, Tiasha and her children, and Timing2's Quincy, with the duiker. Poor duiker, by the way.

Those are actually perfect applications of tactics, though if going against Giant Predators you're going to need some very powerful mages (or a foreign predator and exploitation of a native geological feature) to use something like a pit trap. That, or massed labor work, but unless your people hail from the World of Minecraft most aren't going to be able to dig pit traps large enough to fit a Giant Predator in a reasonable time-frame (however, you could instead go for smaller "traps" against things like Dridders, with the intent of breaking legs and overall slowing them down that way).

Stabs wrote:

Currently, those tactics are designed for those whose only advantage is picking the terrain-

To be fair, being a "Prey" usually means you can quite readily pick the Terrain, unless you're a "fresh meat". Especially if you're a Mage. Even with things scaled larger, there's still a good deal of geological limitation to where a Giant Predator can and will readily go - things, surprisingly, are in the favor of the things that aren't the size of an office building and weigh less than a couple dozen metric tons.

Stabs wrote:

One-guard-two-attack stance
Triple Response (three shooters)
Materials needed: Just give guns to all of them.
Terrain: Any.

One of the most basic responses, OGTA stance involves three people walking in a bent line. The central one watches the rear and sides, while the back and front watch their front. Anyone who attacks any of the three will have two people to worry about; whoever is attacked needs only concern themselves with dropping to the ground and parrying.

The basic premise of the one-guard two-attack stance is that albeit a gun is useless to defend you if you're surprised, it's not useless to defend someone else who's been surprised. It's important that whoever is attacked drops to the ground as soon as he gets a chance, thus freeing the firing range for their companions.

Aside from the obvious vulnerability of a simultaneous attack, this stance is rather sound against anything that doesn't attack from range and can be killed with a gun. Needless to say, this stance is useless against ranged attackers- it's meant only for use against wild animals.

I wouldn't necessarily state it's useless against ranged attackers: It depends on how much a "self preservation" the attackers have, and how readily the defenders realize the angle of attack. Covering fire is still "covering fire", and there's much more incentive for the guys being attacked to stick their heads out and fire away than there is for those attacking: Those attacking have cover (if smart), so they can simply wait it out better than the people in the open. The people in the open don't, will recognize such, and - assuming they don't freeze up - provide covering fire in an attempt to reach a position wherein they have cover.

Of course, this then leaves room for the attackers planning that they'd seek cover, in which case the defenders are probably entering a trapped area (trying to recall the movie, but it had something akin to this: A fountain was stuffed full of broken glass, so when a guy ran forward to jump into cover he pretty much disabled himself through gashing himself open).

Stabs wrote:

Mongoose Pincer
Quad Response (4+ skirmishers, hopefully nimble and capable of handling a hurtful rifle.)
Materials needed: Four ranged weapons of any kind, capable of causing some amount of damage to a naga's flesh. Bodkins and a shortbow or AP ammo are best. Kind of overkill with heavy weapons.
Terrain: Forest. With trees.

[This technique relies on the fact that a naga has actually two speeds- the speed at which it strikes, and its actual movement speed. Though their strike speed is legendary, their actual movement speed has never been reported to be that high; it's not uncommon for nekos to escape nagas in most fics. Besides, I felt that pointing at the crotch would be... a low blow is not the word, but on bad taste. I'll pretend a naga's frontal genitalia is either indestructible or just a decoy organ, which'd explain why the guys don't show it: their real organs are somewhere in the snake part, and if you shoot at the ones showing you're not doing any damage]

I'd say aiming for the groin is perfectly fair game, personally. However, this does exploit an advantage of "Prey": You can attack through thick underbrush, especially if you have a weapon like a Firearm. A Giant Predator, not so much (depending on the type of growths), especially if they're trying to take you alive.

Stabs wrote:

Named so for the animal that iconically kills cobras, the mongoose pincer requires at least four people moving in a spread formation. This formation is supposed to provide the most adequate response in case of an ambushing naga striking at the group. If at least four people survive the strike without being swallowed in the act... they are to run away from the naga. Were she not to pursue, everything's okay and there's no need to use tactics. If she does pursue, though...

Following the slithering sound from behind them as they run, the team must spread in two groups. One group is supposed to split off and go around a tree, just as the naga's slithering brings her front sliding away from them: snakes zigzag, they don't move in a straight line. The other group is to go the other way around, and hopefully around a tree too. While a naga has two hands, both eyes point in the same direction.

The eyes seem like a good place where to attack for a swift kill,

Actually, if a Giant Predator has a skull anything like ours, there's bound to be a lot of bone behind it. Using some of the "heavier weapons" you barred would be decent enough, but otherwise you'd probably only succeed in blinding the Giant Predator (not that it isn't a valid thing to strive for, mind - a blind Giant Predator is a Giant Predator that is very unlikely to harm you).

Stabs wrote:

but this technique relies instead on attacking the tail, just after the fleshy rump that follows the waist. As the naga will only follow one group at a time, the other one can attack- freeing the other group to concentrate on avoiding her hands. If the naga reverses attention, the groups change roles, continuing to attack just under the rump, using the tree as an obstacle.

If the naga's tail is harmed, it should be unable to simply tear off the trees with its tail, not without tearing something in their center of gravity. The damage should eventually slow it down, even if it doesn't perform this mistake. In extreme cases, such as a rocket launcher with Cliff writing, it's even possible that the naga's just torn in half. In that case, be grateful it wasn't you.

Aiming at the tail depends on whether you're doing "like real scales" scales, or someone is writing Naga Scales like Dragon Scales. In the latter's case, you're mostly doing superficial injuries unless breaking out some very high calibre weaponry. In the former's case, this is definitely something to strive for.

Speaking of damaging the tail, it gives me a sort of an idea: Giant-scale Caltrops. Wood should still be sufficient, but stone and metals could be included as well if you have an industry backing you. You should quite readily be capable of walking around the caltrops, the scale necessary for a 120'+ Giant against a Caltrop meaning the things are probably huge (they could readily be almost man-sized from tip to tip). Giant-scale Caltrops would be a bit difficult to deploy without some mean of transport for the Caltrops (even if you dropped them in size to only being about 36" in their largest dimension), but have the advantage of slowing something down remarkably fast without putting Prey at too much risk.

Stabs wrote:

Anticipated Counters:
Of course, this response relies on the naga pursuing after the strike. If she doesn't, however, it's more likely that she's expecting to be outmaneuvered (and plans on a hit-and-run tactic) than she's full. If she doesn't pursue, as soon as you're out of strike range you are to attack with all you have before she gets away (and she will): you can't risk that she might try to strike from a concealed position again at a later time! Give her wounds to look after, or at least a good scare!

There's also the advantage that, barring a few things like Social Harpy Flocks, Fairies, and Dridders, most Giant Predators aren't going to make an "army" / group to attack a well-defended camp. "Easier fish to fry", so to speak. Plus, since a lot of Giant Predators see humans as a "thing" at best, there's the matter that many might not want to admit to "friends" that they can't attack the Humans: "You can't beat those little things on your own? Really? How'd you grow so tall ya big baby?"

Stabs wrote:

Armored Pursuit Response
Single Response (One individual capable of handling heavy weapons, grenades, or in desperation, a shotgun)
Materials needed: A white phosphorus grenade, molotov cocktail, or flamethrower. In a desperate case, a shotgun loaded with a flamer shell might do.
Terrain: Any.
Recommended: Do this from the back of a moving vehicle. Seriously.

Intended mainly for tonorions and kenshas, the Pursuit Breaker is appropriate for any creature too strong and ferocious to wait for it to get shot to death. Basically, set its face on fire. Even if it suffers not from this attack, the fire should keep it from seeing or smelling clearly for a while. In the case of a tonorion, one would want to burn its legs too, so that it doesn't feel vibrations as clearly. After performing this operation, turn around and run past it. It's possible it was leading you to a trap, this goes double for kenshas and other pack hunters.

Caltrops could especially come in handy here, if you deploy them right. The caltrops won't be affecting your transport, but it will be a concern to pursuers. Add in the facial damaging from either fire or some other mean of attack (even just a few buckshot firings at the face of one of the above Predators should blind it in some eye, if not both), you're quickly going to lose pursuit in such an engagement.

Stabs wrote:

Anticipated Counters:
There's not much you can do if the creature doesn't keep to the reach of your flamer-

If they keep out of the reach of your Flamer, you're safe: Those things can reach something like 40m or 80m when mounted on foot, and over 100m (I think the max is something like 200m) when mounted on Armour. If something's not coming within Flamer range, odds are it's not going to be eating you.

Flamethrowers would actually be very helpful on Felarya, provided terrain allowed you to use the range. Only problems would be very limited fuel, and that it takes (comparably) longer to reload one compared to other firearms: Most things have made the simple connection of "Fire bad, no touch!", so if you can just keep putting small bursts between you and a pursuer you've already got an edge to keep at least a solid 40-80m gap between the two of you.

Stabs wrote:

Distance Attack Response
Single Response (Though you all should know it)
Materials needed: Nothing
Terrain: Any with obstacles at least three times as tall as you are.

This simple procedure involves singling out your foe and keeping at all times an obstacle between the two of you. It's effective for slug girls, echydins, and some species of giant frogs. As long as you've seen it before it's seen you, all you need to do is hide behind a tree, and move away so as to keep the obstacle between the two of you, being careful to duck behind other obstacles when the profile grows too thin.

If it has seen you, and it's an echydin, it's fighting time. Make sure there's always something between the two of you, until it's close enough that you can hurt it before it can decide what it wants with you (grenades are good for this purpose). Keep in mind some mermaids have very long tongues. I repeat, they have very long tongues. Stay away from rivers big enough to have a mermaid who thinks you're the best thing since sliced bread, or keep a tree between you and the river.

Water Predators, in general, are something to avoid. Only something packing Naval power can really pose a threat to them on a routine basis: Most people aren't going to have access to deck guns, depth charges, and so on. I mean, a .50cal is helpful, but waiting for a Mermaid to surface is not.


Flashbangs I've suggested a few times before, especially if you can get them close to a face: They aren't going to be in any condition to pursue you if you set a flashbang off near them. A Fragmentary grenade is also a good choice, but magically a bit harder to duplicate (probably: Light and Voice seem to be easier to generate than the force of a fragmentary grenade's charge).

Flamethrowers, as you mentioned, are particularly helpful on Felarya. If you have someone who can magically conjure / supplement ammunition, they're a weapon that most people will say "Heck no!" to the idea of leaving behind. They can smoke out ambushers, hold anything from a Spine Beetle / Kensha Beast to a Giant Predator to bay, can be particularly harmful / lethal to practically anything without Fire Resistances, you can very probably find someone in major settlements to bless the fuel to make it a holy fire (which could then possibly do damage to things like Ghosts), etcetera. It's much to Felarya's advantage that many 'civilized' societies have such weapons banned for being inhumane.

Also, while you didn't address it, ranged Light spells (or volume-increasing Sound spells) can be very effective means to counter a Giant Predator. Light Spells, if you can aim for the face, are very good for the obvious reason (Alternatively, you can even apply the bright spell in your area, so that they can't look to see where you run - better yet if the spell is less than 360° directional, so it can blind them but not you). Sound, meanwhile, works for the obvious reason that once you get loud enough Sound can really ruin something's day. I can't see a Lion's Roar ending well for a Giant Predator.

Malahite wrote:

Also, while you didn't address it, ranged Light spells (or volume-increasing Sound spells) can be very effective means to counter a Giant Predator. Light Spells, if you can aim for the face, are very good for the obvious reason (Alternatively, you can even apply the bright spell in your area, so that they can't look to see where you run - better yet if the spell is less than 360° directional, so it can blind them but not you). Sound, meanwhile, works for the obvious reason that once you get loud enough Sound can really ruin something's day. I can't see a Lion's Roar ending well for a Giant Predator

I think Stabs was trying to keep magic out of it, for the benefit of non-mages. I think this is operating on the "mages must be gifted so Muggles make do" theory, rather than my "everyone has some talent, but just needs to develop it, thus meaning almost everyone in Felarya makes use of magic to some extent" theory.

Not everyone in Felarya has magic. There's a high number of mages but not everyone ahs it.
If they did, there would be nothing special about Ur-Sagol, since one of the defining things about it was that everyone had some degree of magic.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Not everyone in Felarya has magic. There's a high number of mages but not everyone ahs it.
If they did, there would be nothing special about Ur-Sagol, since one of the defining things about it was that everyone had some degree of magic.

http://www.felarya.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fauna2#Hecatick
Read the description.

"hecaticks feed on the magical energies that flow through all living things in Felarya in varying amounts"

My view is that magic ability depends on the world more than the individual. A planet like, say Earth, has little to no magical energy, thus people don't develop the talent. Felarya is the opposite. People from worlds that are in the middle may find themselves feeling supercharged/overwhelmed by the sheer density of magical energy in Felarya, whereas a Felaryan who goes to another world may feel cut-off.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Not everyone in Felarya has magic. There's a high number of mages but not everyone ahs it.
If they did, there would be nothing special about Ur-Sagol, since one of the defining things about it was that everyone had some degree of magic.

http://www.felarya.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fauna2#Hecatick
Read the description.

"hecaticks feed on the magical energies that flow through all living things in Felarya in varying amounts"

My view is that magic ability depends on the world more than the individual. A planet like, say Earth, has little to no magical energy, thus people don't develop the talent. Felarya is the opposite. People from worlds that are in the middle may find themselves feeling supercharged/overwhelmed by the sheer density of magical energy in Felarya, whereas a Felaryan who goes to another world may feel cut-off.

I agree. I know its a contentious viewpoint, but I like the idea that near anyone could become some sort of mage - with enough hard work. I just don't like the idea that some people are magic, while others aren't. True, some may be MORE magical and have an advantage, perhaps even a great one.

I think the difference between Ur-Sagol and Negav is how magic is used. In Ur-Sagol, I imagine teaching magic was very common and everyone learned quite a bit, even in basic school. In Negav, you have to go to the University that the Psi'ol's run themselves. They keep magic to themselves and their allies, or those who pay them. Not to say you couldn't learn on your own, but the attitudes are very different.

/endofftopicrant

Jætte_Troll wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Not everyone in Felarya has magic. There's a high number of mages but not everyone ahs it.
If they did, there would be nothing special about Ur-Sagol, since one of the defining things about it was that everyone had some degree of magic.

http://www.felarya.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fauna2#Hecatick
Read the description.

"hecaticks feed on the magical energies that flow through all living things in Felarya in varying amounts"

My view is that magic ability depends on the world more than the individual. A planet like, say Earth, has little to no magical energy, thus people don't develop the talent. Felarya is the opposite. People from worlds that are in the middle may find themselves feeling supercharged/overwhelmed by the sheer density of magical energy in Felarya, whereas a Felaryan who goes to another world may feel cut-off.

I agree. I know its a contentious viewpoint, but I like the idea that near anyone could become some sort of mage - with enough hard work. I just don't like the idea that some people are magic, while others aren't. True, some may be MORE magical and have an advantage, perhaps even a great one.

I think the difference between Ur-Sagol and Negav is how magic is used. In Ur-Sagol, I imagine teaching magic was very common and everyone learned quite a bit, even in basic school. In Negav, you have to go to the University that the Psi'ol's run themselves. They keep magic to themselves and their allies, or those who pay them. Not to say you couldn't learn on your own, but the attitudes are very different.

/endofftopicrant

I could not agree more. However, it is true that we're de-railing the topic a little. Or perhaps not? Magic could play into tactics, especially varying usages of it. I've always liked the idea of each type of fighter using magic in a way that suits his/her style. A typical warrior may have methods of focusing his energy to grant him stamina, etc.

I'd think basic magic (focusing your energy, maybe some offensive releases) is somewhat intuitive based upon your affinity, but the more impressive arts and such aren't common knowledge. It wouldn't surprised me, either, if many skillsets that aren't marketed as magical have some degree of usage within them.

I agree to most point. However, some people are born with magic due to a certain heritage, which manifest when you are sixteen years old, because it is always sixteen. But those would probably be rare. As far as magic goes, I agree that it makes sense that people from worlds with ambient magic would pursue arcane studies, while those that don't will pursue engineering. However, there is something I've noticed, people here view all magic as the Primordial Magic, the one that tap into the ley line and is dependent on how powerful magic is in the area. It seems odd to me that the distinctionl between the types of magic in the wiki have been blurred by the belief that they are all affected by the same thing. What I would propose is define a Dead Zone and Anti-Magic more properly to avoid future confusion.

By the way, the Hecaticks are only found in the Misty Glade.

And now for obligatory nerd moment: If you're a gamer, follow the Left 4 Dead Survival Tips.

Sean Okotami wrote:

I agree to most point. However, some people are born with magic due to a certain heritage, which manifest when you are sixteen years old, because it is always sixteen.

Yes, because pimples always appear at fifteen, and breasts always appear at sixteen on girls. Nature doesn't follow exact specifications. And I would imagine that such heritage would lead to a certain proficiency with magic, although it's been shown that certain species possess instinctual knowledge on types of magic (like how spiders naturally know how to spin web), and in the case of fairies, may be the only ones physically suited to utilizing said techniques (like how spiders have web-spinners and we don't). And I brought up heckaticks to prove my point of magical energy existing in all beings.

As for the varying schools of magic, I think it comes down to whether or not you consider magic to follow rules either similar to, or stemming from, science itself. As has been demonstrated, practically every field of science boils down to a purer field. Magic may very well be quite similar in that regard.

Also take into account the history of said world. Some worlds might blend magic and tech quite expertly, with one expediting advancement in the other. Magical abilities may make certain technologies feasible, while understanding of the sciences may lead to insights into magical theory. The two needn't be at odds. And technology doesn't always mean cell phones and computers. Just like magic, it can follow different paths.

Now, in a desperate attempt to relate this to the topic, I think that when considering the proper tactics a group should use, a lot of factors that have been discussed here need to be taken into account. What equipment do they possess? How much/What type of magical power? What enemies will they encounter?

Frankly, it's practically impossible to make a comprehensive list of tactical maneuvers. The ones listed here are great, and very insightful, but ultimately, improvisation is just as important as preparation. That doesn't mean let the plan fall apart, as that is undisciplined, but it does mean that changes may have to be made quickly. Also, as I've said before, without the proper equipment and techniques, a plan is much less effective.

I think it depends on the style of mage(s) you have at your disposal. I know that the "specialized" mages is a contentious subject, but I like it and the manga pretty much verifies it in Void and Telekline. Of course, the precise breakup of skills different....

Anyways, if you have a "Shadow" mage, to use the term, like Voidfinger, you would adjust tactics to fit in teleportation and possibly illusions (Once again, no guidelines, giving vague examples). I'd say you'd preferably want two of that sort of mage, actually and keep them in the "middle" of your formation, watching either side. When something attacks, they can open portals for rapid redeployment - for example, to either side, or behind the foe. A giant predator charging a group of humans head on suddenly finds itself under fire from multiple directions.

Then there's the "blasty mages" - the many pyromancers, or astramancers (lightning mage). These are pretty easy, you can deploy them like heavy weapons, with the bonus that they aren't as burdened as someone actually carrying heavy weapons.

Nature mages are one I'm a bit more familiar with. Usually they have a support role in keeping carnivorous plants under control, or at least suppressed. In battle they would be very good "hindrance". Like in the first scenario, your Shadow mage teleports everyone out and your nature mage sets up some entanglement vines. Now you're shooting at a downed predator from multiple angels.

Another popular style is Frost Magic. This would be a great "suppresser", like the nature mage. It would be very deadly in a jungle environment, where creatures wouldn't be used to such cold. In short - keep the enemy down, the rest of your group opens fire.

An illusionist is of course great - with a good one you'd hopefully not run into much actual trouble, at least from sentient creatures.

Psions are a little bit of a wild card, not even being technically mages. For this we'll assume powers of telekinesis or telepathy, possibly both.

Telekinesis is great for manipulating a potentially dangerous object or other such thing at a distance - springing traps, or even making some noise to lure out the enemy first. Telepathy's full range hasn't really been covered yet and I'm not sure if "mind control of a giant predator" is an option, but "mind detection" seems reasonable - telepaths would be great "radar".

Geomancers don't get as much love, but I see it as quite a versatile school, actually. It could feasibly, if practiced right, be the best suppressant school there is. A predator falling into a pit is a pretty easy target, especially if they are subsequently trapped. A great thing about geomancers is that it lets you make instant fortifications, without the need to lug around sandbags.

Wind mages... well, they might seem a little on the weaker side, but, vaguely remembering the discourse on fairy size changing and the airs affect on them, these guys could be your best bet in a fairy or harpy attack - as long as they're not the first target. Think of them as mobile AA.

Welp, that's my late night ramblings on the subject.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

Telepathy's full range hasn't really been covered yet and I'm not sure if "mind control of a giant predator" is an option, but "mind detection" seems reasonable - telepaths would be great "radar".

In my first attempt at a Felarya Saga, there was a scene where my "heavy-hitter" character (who isn't a "mage" in the traditional sense) taunted a canopy fairy into eating him, so that he could attack from inside while Zion engaged her, distracting her and weakening her will enough for their telepathy-oriented comrade to seize control of her motor functions. It's actually a common strategy for the trio. Also, throughout both iterations, the psychic served as a radar of sorts: he could detect the number of enemies, usually glean limited information on their intentions and strategies, and also gauge their power and intelligence. The key is that everything had limits: Leif can't just walk up to a pred (or even most humans) and mind-control it, and he's no slouch of a psychic. (I always hate when psychics are made to look like they can hijack a mind like stealing candy from a baby; it's so cheap!) Neither can he read a mind that wasn't open to him, unless he tried to "crack" it, which almost always alerts the user.

As for specialized mages, here's how I see it: magic was broken up into "elemental" schools to simplify things: very few mages could actually juggle knowledge on every magical/scientific law involved with pure magic. Instead, almost every mage finds it more effective to study a certain style of magic, often dealing with a limited variety of materials to avoid having to learn a buttload of chemistry and physics. Because of the popularity of this approach, magic is usually seen as naturally being broken up into these schools. I think it's a rational argument, don't you?

Ugh, how did we get from tactics, to a discussion about magic again? I think Mal started it, but I'm pretty sure I egged it on.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Jætte_Troll wrote:

Telepathy's full range hasn't really been covered yet and I'm not sure if "mind control of a giant predator" is an option, but "mind detection" seems reasonable - telepaths would be great "radar".

In my first attempt at a Felarya Saga, there was a scene where my "heavy-hitter" character (who isn't a "mage" in the traditional sense) taunted a canopy fairy into eating him, so that he could attack from inside while Zion engaged her, distracting her and weakening her will enough for their telepathy-oriented comrade to seize control of her motor functions. It's actually a common strategy for the trio. Also, throughout both iterations, the psychic served as a radar of sorts: he could detect the number of enemies, usually glean limited information on their intentions and strategies, and also gauge their power and intelligence. The key is that everything had limits: Leif can't just walk up to a pred (or even most humans) and mind-control it, and he's no slouch of a psychic. (I always hate when psychics are made to look like they can hijack a mind like stealing candy from a baby; it's so cheap!) Neither can he read a mind that wasn't open to him, unless he tried to "crack" it, which almost always alerts the user.

As for specialized mages, here's how I see it: magic was broken up into "elemental" schools to simplify things: very few mages could actually juggle knowledge on every magical/scientific law involved with pure magic. Instead, almost every mage finds it more effective to study a certain style of magic, often dealing with a limited variety of materials to avoid having to learn a buttload of chemistry and physics. Because of the popularity of this approach, magic is usually seen as naturally being broken up into these schools. I think it's a rational argument, don't you?

Ugh, how did we get from tactics, to a discussion about magic again? I think Mal started it, but I'm pretty sure I egged it on.

I was just trying to lay out how various mages would mesh with a group using "conventional" weapons.

I also tried to propose an "elemental" breakdown and got heavy critique for that. Someone or other is apparently working on defining the "schools" of magic. I agree though that magic should be hard to learn and its thus easier to focus on a single approach. Someone who did try to become a "super all encompassing arch-mage who can do EVERYTHING!" would cast a wide range of weaker spells that wouldn't be worth much at all.

Anyways, back to tactics. I like the idea of psychic as "radar". I think its a useful application of the skill and one I've used briefly in my stories.

But lets stop focusing on the magic on itself and try to organize a bigger picture of tactics.

It's a bit of a large task... so how about we divide it up into "Assault Magic", "Support Magic", "Suppression Magic" and "Avoidance Magic?"

I'll think more on specific creatures.

Except Echydins. I pretend they don't exist. What a stupidly overpowered creature. You know something went wrong when a retarded looking unicorn can essentially "one shot" you just by looking at you.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

Except Echydins. I pretend they don't exist. What a stupidly overpowered creature. You know something went wrong when a retarded looking unicorn can essentially "one shot" you just by looking at you.

Meh, I think that a lot of fauna (and some flora) is overpowered, and especially certain races. But that's just me. A little creativity can beat anything, however. Which is why I'm a humans fan: creativity is our thing.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

I also tried to propose an "elemental" breakdown and got heavy critique for that.

Yeah, it's possible I was part of that, since I'm part of the "scientific magic" camp. There's a difference between magic being truly broken up into non-preiodic elements (which I find completely unfeasible), and then there's the divisions imposed by practitioners for ease of learning. A "fire mage" should be perfectly capable of casting water-related spells if he put his mind to it, but just like how some people grasp chemistry better than physics, it's possible that he's just more comfortable with combustion, and can do more with it because of that.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

Someone who did try to become a "super all encompassing arch-mage who can do EVERYTHING!" would cast a wide range of weaker spells that wouldn't be worth much at all.

Or would have other limits. Zion is an all-around caster, because magic is approached in a scientific manner where he is from, and thus he's able to manipulate it better than most mages because he understands the laws that govern it, although he does prefer certain techniques over others because they're "easier". Plus, to be truly effective, he requires a little concentration, and needs to assess the situation. And yes, because of his lack of specialization, he's not as skilled in a certain field, although adaptability often pays off. I won't lie and say that he's not a little overpowered, because even without specialization he's extremely competent in most fields, although I try to work around it by maintaining that his main strength is his intelligence and comprehension, not some uber-powerful magic reservoir (in fact, his "reservoir" is rather limited, which could explain why he prefers to use magic intelligently).

Enough de-railing from me. I'm horrible about getting distracted, especially when my characters get involved. Stopping now.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

It's a bit of a large task... so how about we divide it up into "Assault Magic", "Support Magic", "Suppression Magic" and "Avoidance Magic"?

That's a little limited, but I guess it's accurate enough. I mean, quantifying something so diverse as magic is difficult, and often futile. With a small tweak, a suppressive technique can become offensive, and vice-versa.

I think our best bet is to develop a codex of tactics for specific opponents, and entertain various scenarios involving terrain. We could then say "if this is the case, having a mage capable of ____ is recommended/it is best to have a ______ or similar equipment with you".

You could always just soil yourself and hope the foul odor and bad taste drive the predator away!

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In theory only of course!

Can't canopy fairies do the same thing as Echydins?

Yeah, I read up on the wiki and they seem to have a similar stomach-warp system.

Both are broken as hell though when it comes to magical aptitude.

Yeah, I don't mind predators being super powerful. Felarya is supposed to be dangerous and all. And I don't mind that most adventurers will probably die facing them.

But teleportation, with, as its stated, no way to teleport out of the stomach due to anti-magical barriers, isn't even a fight. It's like called getting suddenly smote by a meteor to be "fighting" it.

The only real way to deal with one is snipe it before it sees you.

So, I propose now, that there be a "shoot on sight" policy for the things. Let's just drive them into extinction before they breed too much.