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 Equality of Species in Negav

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Anime-Junkie
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:38 pm

Well Axel, then that's not really a vampire. It's a species with characteristics and traits that are very similar to vampires. But they wouldn't be supernatural or anything.

Also, I believe that this thread has really gone off on a tangent. I'm suggesting that a mod move the vampire discussion to a new thread.


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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:41 pm

Quote :
Of course there's no reason to want to become a vampire. However, that doesn't mean you have to be weak to sunlight. Vampires are based off bats, some bats can live in sunlight. This furthers my explanation about how it depends on the kind of vampire you are.

...Yes, they do need to be weak to sunlight. That is one of the main traits of a vampire. What's the point of making a vampire if you aren't going to use any vampiric traits or weaknesses?

There aren't different "kinds" of vampires. A vampire is a vampire. The only difference is the method through which the affliction is spread.

Quote :
^You missed transformation via blood injection.

""- Biological, through the use of a viral/bacterial infection, or some other substance in the saliva/blood of the vampire. This is counteracted by the healing factor of Felarya and how it boosts a person's immune system."

Quote :
"based on what kind of vampire they are" If I remembere reading in the quote. What if the vampire was more human than beast and reproduced the old fasioned way like us humans, eh?

I really doubt a vampire could just have a kid with a human and it'd be a vampire. Especially the magical ones, since they bodies are, well, dead and being animated by dark magic. I always assumed vampires were sterile, personally. Only capable of making more vampires by spreading their disease.
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:59 pm

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Also, I believe that this thread has really gone off on a tangent. I'm suggesting that a mod move the vampire discussion to a new thread.

Point taken... best to discuss this in another thread....

switch species then... or just end the thread?
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:02 pm

Of course there are different kinds of vampires, it's part of what makes the stories so interesting, they have different racial traits, and weaknesses. All aren't immune to sunlight, and not all of them spread the same way.

The thing about vampires is that they are magical creatures, unable to be defined by pure science, therefore strictly classifying it as such will just lead you in circles. Ever seen Rosario+Vampire, or read the Chibi Vampire manga?

In R+V, Moka injects her blood into a severly wounded Tsukune, and her blood magically associates with his in some fashion, and thereby turning him into a vampire. He is not killed, so he is not undead, and the way it happened was not a viral or bacteria infection, (which the soil can only heal so quickly anyway, much like a poison, if it's strong enough it can kill you anyway).

In Chibi Vampire, the main character is a special kind of vampire, a "queen" if you will, that when other vampires drink her blood, they can reproduce via sex and not feeding/injection/transformation/what-have-you.

Of course to say that a vampire can't reproduce sexually is stupid, because every creature can reproduce sexually.

Different kinds of vampires right there, there are many theories on this, and cannot be classified into just two categories.

-----

edit: what was the original purpose of discussing equality of species in negav? it's always been that humans look down on pretty much everyone else for some reason.

Actually I imagine that humans wouldn't get too far, because there are probably more nekos around than humans. We could always discuss who is more populous based on more common behavioral traits among species, who stays in the city more and who goes in the jungle more and among other things.

How more populous are humans than nekos *really*? That would probably make for an interesting debate/conversation. I mean nekos are more loved by preds, but they'd probably hide more.
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:27 am

No in Tsukihime, the vampire in question you mentioned, resurrects himself through basically necromancy, so that one is rather out.
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:00 am

...Where did I mention Tsukihime?
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:07 am

because I read Tsukune and my brain glossed it over and I had a herpa derpa moment.
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:21 am

Well, the way I see it, vampires are still undead. So the act of putting your blood in someone kills them and then raises them from the dead, so it wouldn't work.
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:47 am

you gotta die to be undead, no? a vampire does not need to die to be immortal.
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:02 am

There have been like....18 bajillion different kinds of vampires throughout imagination along with a similar number of different traits and "reproduction" methods and rules.

But let me throw some facts out there.

1. Not all vampires created have been weak to sunlight.
2. Not all vampires are created through necromancy, being bit, drinking the vampires blood etc....


Now for some opinions.

I think the anti-necromancy/vampire rule was created because of fear of people making stories where XXX creates a legion of zombies and takes over blah blah blah.

I think that fear is a little overblown, and chopping of one of the classical legs of magic in a world that is supposed to be just teeming with magic seems.....off. And yet, at the same time one could argue that a vampire could want to seek out Felarya to avoid the burden of creating other vampires and who knows, may be able to have a relationship they normally would not have in other places.

I wish there was a compromise of sorts between not letting XXX create his undead legion and still allowing the use of dark damning magic/ allowing a vampire on Felarya to somehow create a life-long partner.

Now for a question.


How the hell did this thread get so focused on vampires?
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:12 am

Grave wrote:

How the hell did this thread get so focused on vampires?

sweatdrop I think that was my fault. I used my vampire character as an example for stating my case for other species living in Negav and.... I think you get the picture....
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:02 am

Quote :
I wish there was a compromise of sorts between not letting XXX create his undead legion and still allowing the use of dark damning magic/ allowing a vampire on Felarya to somehow create a life-long partner.

People in Felarya are immortal. All a human would need to do to be with a vampire is change around his/her sleep schedule and lay off the garlic. The only reason people choose to become vampires in fiction is for the immortality and super-powers. Felarya is a world where people already can theoritically live forever AND have the potential to learn magic. No human has any incentives whatsoever to become a vampire. All it does is add on a blood-thirst and several weaknesses.

It just seems, to me, that some people want to make Vampires into just another fantasy race, like Elves and Dwarves...and that is just something I cannot support. Vampires are just humans who are afflicted by a terrible curse/disease. Vampirism is supposed to be a bad thing, something that no one should want to have. It turns you into a blood-drinking monster that can no longer step out into the sunlight. Its a bad thing to have happen to you.
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:04 am

rcs619 wrote:
Vampirism is supposed to be a bad thing, something that no one should want to have.
Well, we could spend all day discussing the self-loathing that is the root of the vampire-lover's attitude, but that's another topic.
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:31 am

[quote="rcs619]
It just seems, to me, that some people want to make Vampires into just another fantasy race, like Elves and Dwarves...[/quote]

Very Happy hee hee. thats me Very Happy even if its a cursed thing, its still a supernatural race.

[quote="rcs619]
Vampirism is supposed to be a bad thing, something that no one should want to have. It turns you into a blood-drinking monster that can no longer step out into the sunlight. Its a bad thing to have happen to you.[/quote]

Like what Z said, thats another topic entirely


SPEAKING OF WHICH, SHOULDNT WE CHANGE TO A DIFFERENT SPECIES....

Ok, lets see... suppose there was a character who had a freak accident and ended up half plant (like poison ivy for example) or had an artificial body (like this guy http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Amnael ) would they be allowed entry from the eye?
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:56 am

rcs619 wrote:
Quote :
I wish there was a compromise of sorts between not letting XXX create his undead legion and still allowing the use of dark damning magic/ allowing a vampire on Felarya to somehow create a life-long partner.

People in Felarya are immortal. All a human would need to do to be with a vampire is change around his/her sleep schedule and lay off the garlic. The only reason people choose to become vampires in fiction is for the immortality and super-powers. Felarya is a world where people already can theoritically live forever AND have the potential to learn magic. No human has any incentives whatsoever to become a vampire. All it does is add on a blood-thirst and several weaknesses.

It just seems, to me, that some people want to make Vampires into just another fantasy race, like Elves and Dwarves...and that is just something I cannot support. Vampires are just humans who are afflicted by a terrible curse/disease. Vampirism is supposed to be a bad thing, something that no one should want to have. It turns you into a blood-drinking monster that can no longer step out into the sunlight. Its a bad thing to have happen to you.

I specifically pointed out that there is some allure from a vampires point of view as to be able to have a relationship without possibility of inflicting their condition on their partner or others.

I also stated that not all vampires in fantasy are so negatively affected by sunlight. Just because dumb horror movies depicts this a lot doesn't make it universally true. (And no I don't mean the *sparkly* vampires from make-me-vomit movie series.)

Who are you to say that a human lover of a vampire would not desire to be closer to him/her by sharing his "affliction" as you put it? Isn't this up the the individual? Also, calling vampires "blood-drinking monsters" is a rather retarded view from the standpoint of a world where a vampire could hunt and not kill but these amazing giant predators kill with incredible efficiency.

I'm sending mail to Crisis informing her of her new status as a "Flesh-eating monster" and if even one tear comes down her eye, I'm blaming YOU!
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:05 pm

Grave wrote:
I also stated that not all vampires in fantasy are so negatively affected by sunlight. Just because dumb horror movies depicts this a lot doesn't make it universally true.
What about the most definitive piece of vampire fiction of all time?

Grave wrote:
I'm sending mail to Crisis informing her of her new status as a "Flesh-eating monster" and if even one tear comes down her eye, I'm blaming YOU!
Well, she purty much is.
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:06 pm

Actually, the cursed nature of Vampires is probably why Felarya, or at least Negav, has a community of them.

While not totally removing it, I figure the healing factor would take the edge off of the blood-lust. And the fact that more vampires can't be made means people are less scared of Vampires, as its not really an epidemical problem. In Felarya a vampire doesn't have to worry too much about hiding what they are least someone comes after them with a stake.

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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:10 pm

Quote :
I also stated that not all vampires in fantasy are so negatively affected by sunlight. Just because dumb horror movies depicts this a lot doesn't make it universally true. (And no I don't mean the *sparkly* vampires from make-me-vomit movie series.)

Those aren't vampires though. Those are humans with pointy teeth and super-powers that call themselves vampires. If you're going to make a vampire, use vampiric traits. If you don't want those traits, call the creature something else.

Quote :
Also, calling vampires "blood-drinking monsters"

But they are blood-drinking monsters. Their affliction gives them a strong desire to drink the blood of non-vampires. In order to survive, they have to brutally kill someone and drink their blood. That's part of the curse, you cannot survive without becoming a murderer.

Quote :
a vampire could hunt and not kill

Nope. When you rip a hole in someone's neck, they die. They bleed out quite fast. The only way a vampire could survive without killing humans is to try and survive on the blood of animals, which likely isn't completely satisfying to their insticts.

Quote :
but these amazing giant predators kill with incredible efficiency

Umm...no. They aren't efficient at all. It takes minutes for their prey to die after being swallowed. If they're lucky, they suffocate before the acid starts working on them. It is a terrible, terrible way to die. I'd rather get my neck ripped open by a vampire, at least it'd be over quicker.

Quote :
I'm sending mail to Crisis informing her of her new status as a "Flesh-eating monster"

But, she IS a man-eating monster. All the giant hybrids are. She's a giant, half-human man-eating monster woman. Hell, even Fiona is a man-eating monster, even if she's only done it a few times in her life. Calling something a "monster" isn't necissarily an insult. Its a statement of fact. They are monsters.
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:14 pm

As usual, I agree with Cliff word for word. People tend to downplay the "monster" part.
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:16 pm

The whole vampire thing and how "only this is a TRUE vampire for everything" is incredibly, incredibly conservative and arbitrary. There are multiple ways you can approach that is similar, but different. Everyone can put their spin on something. Hell, Felarya pretty much lives on this considering Elementals are spirits that inhabits masses of lands and make a body out of it, instead of being fire that jumps at you.
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:43 pm

Quote :
Vampirism is supposed to be a bad thing, something that no one should want to have. It turns you into a blood-drinking monster that can no longer step out into the sunlight. Its a bad thing to have happen to you.

well cliff, personnally, i prefer writing about someone that has a really bad problem than someone whos healthier and joyful

Quote :
Quote:
I also stated that not all vampires in fantasy are so negatively affected by sunlight. Just because dumb horror movies depicts this a lot doesn't make it universally true. (And no I don't mean the *sparkly* vampires from make-me-vomit movie series.)


Those aren't vampires though. Those are humans with pointy teeth and super-powers that call themselves vampires. If you're going to make a vampire, use vampiric traits. If you don't want those traits, call the creature something else.

Quote:
Also, calling vampires "blood-drinking monsters"


But they are blood-drinking monsters. Their affliction gives them a strong desire to drink the blood of non-vampires. In order to survive, they have to brutally kill someone and drink their blood. That's part of the curse, you cannot survive without becoming a murderer.

Quote:
a vampire could hunt and not kill


Nope. When you rip a hole in someone's neck, they die. They bleed out quite fast. The only way a vampire could survive without killing humans is to try and survive on the blood of animals, which likely isn't completely satisfying to their insticts.

Quote:
but these amazing giant predators kill with incredible efficiency


Umm...no. They aren't efficient at all. It takes minutes for their prey to die after being swallowed. If they're lucky, they suffocate before the acid starts working on them. It is a terrible, terrible way to die. I'd rather get my neck ripped open by a vampire, at least it'd be over quicker.

Quote:
I'm sending mail to Crisis informing her of her new status as a "Flesh-eating monster"


But, she IS a man-eating monster. All the giant hybrids are. She's a giant, half-human man-eating monster woman. Hell, even Fiona is a man-eating monster, even if she's only done it a few times in her life. Calling something a "monster" isn't necissarily an insult. Its a statement of fact. They are monsters.

ill remind you here that this is only ONE view of vampires. ill quote the dude that is missing one in pirates of the carribean "its a creature of legend i can do whatever i want with them" (not an exact quote) this means that everyone have their own views on vampires. stephanie meyer made them shine when theyre in sunlight and make them able to survive by drinking animal blood.


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Axel Hunter
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:46 pm

OK, SERIOUSLY, ENOUGH VAMPIRE TALK! ITS DRIVING ME CRAZY!

WE GET IT, EVERYONE HAS DIFFERENT VIEWS ABOUT VAMPIRES, HOW ABOUT WE PUT OUT THE FIRE AND GO ELSWHERE!
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:29 pm

Maybe I mistook your use of the word monster. Perhaps you meant

a legendary animal combining features of animal and human form or having the forms of various animals in combination, as a centaur, griffin, or sphinx


But what I heard, and in context I believe you meant


a person who excites horror by wickedness, cruelty, etc.

Now Crisis certainly is not monstrous by being wicked and cruel, but she does fit the first definition.

Also, last I checked even Dracula didn't kill every time he fed, but more than that, are you trying to tell me the only way to BLEED is to have a huge gaping hole in your neck?
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:31 pm

Grave wrote:
a person who excites horror by wickedness, cruelty, etc.
That's what I meant. Dunno about Cliff.
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PostSubject: Re: Equality of Species in Negav   Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:42 pm

Quote :
Maybe I mistook your use of the word monster. Perhaps you meant

a legendary animal combining features of animal and human form or having the forms of various animals in combination, as a centaur, griffin, or sphinx

Yep, that's definately one such meaning.

Quote :
But what I heard, and in context I believe you meant


a person who excites horror by wickedness, cruelty, etc

Yep, I meant that too. A Vampire is a monster in both senses of the word. They have to kill people to survive. They have to walk up to someone, rip open their neck and drink their blood. They know what will happen, and they know the person they are feeding on probably hasn't done anything to deserve their death. That is certainly cruel.

Quote :
Now Crisis certainly is not monstrous by being wicked and cruel, but she does fit the first definition.

Yes she is. She eats and kills random humans who have done nothing to her. They die slowly and painfully over the course of several minutes. She also often toys with her prey before eating them, sometimes giving them the false-hope that she will let them go before she eats them. Crisis is no saint. For all her kindness to her friends, she has a very dark side to her prey. She's very much a monster, also in both senses of the word.

Quote :
but more than that, are you trying to tell me the only way to BLEED is to have a huge gaping hole in your neck?

It doesn't take much of a hole to bleed out when you punch open a major vein or artery. It isn't like a vampire just pricks open a tiny hole in someone's neck. They use their fangs to rip open a two gashes in someone's neck. Those wounds are going to be a couple inches wide at the smallest. That is an extremely fatal neck wound.
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