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ZionAtriedes
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:33 pm

I'm not saying that the magiocrats should not have ruled, or anything of that nature. I am saying that once crisis was averted, reform should have taken place. Not a pure democracy, but checks and balances should be instituted against the rulers, and some level of power should be vested in the populace. (Note that by "should", I don't mean in terms of canon. I am talking about ideals. My point is that you can't entirely defend an authoritarian government by pointing out alternatives. The government can be authoritarian for story or universe purposes, and I have no problem with that. I'm saying that you can't just pass it off as being justified.)

You have a populace that obeys out of fear. How the fuck is that just?

And yes, Cauldron. Most politicians are corrupt and deserve a bullet.
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:50 pm

ZionAtriedes wrote:
I'm not saying that the magiocrats should not have ruled, or anything of that nature. I am saying that once crisis was averted, reform should have taken place. Not a pure democracy, but checks and balances should be instituted against the rulers, and some level of power should be vested in the populace. (Note that by "should", I don't mean in terms of canon. I am talking about ideals. My point is that you can't entirely defend an authoritarian government by pointing out alternatives. The government can be authoritarian for story or universe purposes, and I have no problem with that. I'm saying that you can't just pass it off as being justified.)

You have a populace that obeys out of fear. How the fuck is that just?

And yes, Cauldron. Most politicians are corrupt and deserve a bullet.

No one is saying it is just, rather we are saying that is the way it is; there is no canon link between Earth and Felarya, so there is no guarantee that the concept of human rights or fair government is even known there. As I said earlier we as westerners are often very critical of governments which do not fit our view of the world, the fact you're doing it here Zion is taking it to the extreme lol. No but in all seriousness, in our view the government in Negav is not justified; even though one could argue they are in a constant state of crisis untill the predator/human situation in Felarya changes. Although I do question why you have brought this up to behonest, yes the Magiocrats are authoritarian but they do not actively oppress those under their rule. Yes the Neko's are treated with distain however that seems to be a Negavian human trait rather than something that can be wholely atributed to the Magiocrat's rule. If you take the view point that there is no possibility for an average man to rise to a high position in government as oppression, I respect that, however that seems to be true of all governments and why we say politicians world over are out of touch with the populace.
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ZionAtriedes
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:56 pm

It seems my argument was taken completely out of context.

My point is that you have to take everything the Magiocrats have done right with a grain of salt, because in the end it was in their best interest. I was pointing out to Cliff that an authoritarian government can accomplish things, but that isn't an excuse. Negav is an oligarchy, it is a dictatorship, and it does do things which should be considered heinous crimes for a government.
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:01 pm

ZionAtriedes wrote:
It seems my argument was taken completely out of context.

My point is that you have to take everything the Magiocrats have done right with a grain of salt, because in the end it was in their best interest. I was pointing out to Cliff that an authoritarian government can accomplish things, but that isn't an excuse. Negav is an oligarchy, it is a dictatorship, and it does do things which should be considered heinous crimes for a government.

Well then you're getting into a moral argument which has no real winner; a situation in which no government is innocent of and something that is highly unlikely to change; humans are not perfect.
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ZionAtriedes
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:09 pm

Gah. What I am trying to get across is that you cannot discount the problems with the oligarchical Negavian government. End of story. I was not saying they are the same as Nazis, only that they run along similar lines, and that rationalizing that the safety makes up for it is a fallacy.
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:40 pm

Zion, this isn't the thread for that kind of discusson.
Anyway what you're saying in the above post has no real point. It is your opinion and while it may be valid, it's not how it works in Negav.
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ZionAtriedes
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:50 pm

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Zion, this isn't the thread for that kind of discusson.
I would point out that I was not the first to take up said subject. Granted, I did give it credence by rebutting.

We were discussing the nature of the Magiocrats' recruitment, and Pen brought up that it probably would require blackmail and bribery, because that was how they seemed to roll. I then made a passing joke hinting that all politicians did. Cliff then pointed out the redeeming qualities of the Magiocrats' rule, which I made a rebuttal to by pointing out that achievements don't justify an unjust state, which I later backed up with evidence from the wiki of the darker points of Negavian politics. It was, in my opinion, a matter of discussion, and would have been if people didn't get their panties in a bunch because I used Nazis as a comparison.

Of course, my point was muddled in the focus upon my comparison rather than the underlying case, which I've come to expect from people.
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:58 pm

I would like to point out that most governments by far have been what we in the west would consider authoritarian governments. The truth is I am fairly sure the two main concerns that the Negav council worries about is, trade and protection.
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ZionAtriedes
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:00 pm

I know that authoritarian governments are common. That's not the point, and has nothing to do with what I said.

The wiki says that Negavians would not speak out against the Magiocrats because it isn't healthy. This implies two things:
1. Lack of free speech
2. Reason for complaint serious enough for a government to enforce free speech crackdown

You can rationalize it, but the point stands that the government is a dictatorship, ergo, unjust.
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:14 pm

ZionAtriedes wrote:
It seems my argument was taken completely out of context.

Well honnestly that was expected when you bring something like nazis in the discussion.. That's exactly the kind of things that is bound to inflame a debate and to provoke a lot of un-necessary passions...

So please avoid this kind of comparisons in the future..
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ZionAtriedes
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:15 pm

My apologies. I should have realized that people would be so irrational as to muddle a point solely due to aversion towards a historical comparison.
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:50 pm

Karbo wrote:
ZionAtriedes wrote:
It seems my argument was taken completely out of context.

Well honnestly that was expected when you bring something like nazis in the discussion.. That's exactly the kind of things that is bound to inflame a debate and to provoke a lot of un-necessary passions...

So please avoid this kind of comparisons in the future..

ZionAtriedes wrote:
My apologies. I should have realized that people would be so irrational as to muddle a point solely due to aversion towards a historical comparison.

True, but it did leave a little insight into the government of Negav now and then... still, lets leave the nazis out next time
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:01 pm

forget about the nazis Razz bring communist next time Wink
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AisuKaiko
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:04 pm

Let's just not involve real-world politics and get back on-topic.
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:25 pm

AisuKaiko wrote:
Let's just not involve real-world politics and get back on-topic.

Agreed, all in favor say NAY Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:10 pm

Well we need real world ideas to base our ideas off of. Or rather at least something that works.

Anyway, how did this get on the topic of what Negav's Government is like? Negav has a magioCRACY, there are multiple people, not just one person being the dictator. However that's hardly the point anyway >_> (cracy, crat, cratic, cratism, cratically, cracies - basically just means to rule, so the mages rule, mages being plural if it was called "unicracy" probably it just means one rule, or one person rules.)

To get on the Negav Council is anyone's guess, they probably don't have an "official" way, just touch and go. A person I imagine would just need to be someone they can all agree on. To get on the council they'd have to vote, but probably get a recommendation by somebody. IE, someone could be a dick with a really good way of doing things, or someone could be extremely nice, but not the brightest when it comes to ruling. As such since there are multiple people so voting on an idea to be passed (by the council only) is probably the most way things are done. Each is a powerful mage, so there would be major power balance issues, one person tries to get too powerful, and they could be thrown off the council and/or attacked and become a criminal. Greedy people might be iffy as well.

Like I said, the candidate probably comes before them like an interview or proposal to a board of directors, asked questions, perhaps asked to duel one of the other members and if they're close in skill and/or what they like, they probably make the seat.

I doubt they really get council members often, once every several decades, if that. So what I said earlier: touch and go. They seem to be just mages taking the place of/acting like politicians anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:17 pm

One thing I've wondered - the Magiocrats have control of Negav as a municipal and state system, but do they also control all the administrative decisions for it? I mean, they might not be so interested in spending time on that. So, would Negav have a "city council" of citizens, or at least representatives from various guilds, and the Vishmitals, to handle day to day stuff? I assume the Magiocrats could veto anything, if they wanted to, though......
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:58 pm

We don't have to rationalise it. It doesn't need a justification in that sense.
We are giving reasons why it is there, not why it is "correct" to our own morals and sense of justice.
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ZionAtriedes
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:34 am

AJ, it's been handled. I was simply trying to point out the flip side to Cliff's earlier argument for the sake of discussion. It was everyone else who blew it out of proportion.
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:29 am

my idea is that one must be
a smooth talker
a good listerner
and maybe unafriad to dirty their hands
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:03 pm

As I see it, magiocrats would largely leave administrative decisions to a sort of council indeed.
One of the reason the rule of the magiocrats is accepted by most Negavians is that they don't meddle too much into their affairs.
Which I think is fine with magiocrats as they would see such "trivial matters" unworthy of their attention or something like that ( but with still the possibility to veto things they don't like )
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:20 am

what I was wondering Karbo, is how oppressive are they too groups that are dissident, you know who oppose them, but only mildly.
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PostSubject: Re: how to get on the Negav council   Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:01 am

asaenvolk wrote:
what I was wondering Karbo, is how oppressive are they too groups that are dissident, you know who oppose them, but only mildly.

Unless said groups have actual means to challenge the Magiocrats, I think the Council would mostly let them be, even if they're making a bit of noise.

The Vishmitals were seen as a threat due to their ambition, the Magiocrats took it seriously because of their formidable military assets. The loss of their complex in the Great Rocky Fields would of led to the dimise of the Vishmitals being an actual threat to the Magiocrats; yes their guns line the walls but they are pointed outward and using such heavy weapons indescriminatly against the city they protect won't win them any favours. The current uneasy peace probably has more to do with lingering Vishmital ambitions and the bad blood between the two sides rather than the Vishmitals being a physical threat.

I doubt the Magiocrats will drop the hammer on anyone unless they turely feel threatened, to do so would make them look oppressive in the eyes of the public. It is easier to let such groups make their noise while keeping an keen eye on any possible changes in the status quo, than actively routing them out and shuting them down. Of course in keeping the status quo there would be logical limitations as to how much actual power said groups can emass or have access to; but that is more of a game of clever politicing on the part of the Magiocrats.

The Investigators tend to be paranoid about any opposition, however they have been reigned in a lot more compared to the old days where they, through the Meltropolitan Security Division, were responsible for Negav's internal policing. The Magiocrats can illaford to have them going on a crusade everytime a group opposes the Council, rather they will permit the ISD to gather intelligence on any group but direct action will only be allowed if the Council approves it. Such action tends to be sergical in nature, like the arrest or assassination of key individuals, of course the ISD has been known to carry out extra juditial executions and even fake evidence and intelligence in order to have their way, but that is mainly rumour.
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