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Shady Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Should sub-species be put into heir own pages    Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:02 am

This has gone out of control. gwada, this is about making general species for nagas instead of classifying their traits by their element. This is for the sake of streamlining and convenience. Derailing it just to bring about the whole evolution process is simply unnecessary and merely arguing for the sake of arguing.
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buddha66667
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PostSubject: Re: Should sub-species be put into heir own pages    Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:13 am

Quote :

It's more an assumption than a statement.

Having the same skin colour and using the same magic is not sufficient trait to be considered as a same specie or same group or population. The elemental affinities and the variation of the skin colouration are not a sufficient condition to be considered necessary as a species.

if you based your listing on physical similarities look at this:


These two women are more related to southeast Asian population than any subsaharan african populations. They are belonging to indegenous people living in the island of the south of India. The only link they share with Africans it's a common origins of 60 000 years but in many point they are clearly belong to a distinct population. And if you use the Out of Africa Theory, I will answer some recent studies let think non-african population are the result of an admixture between neendertals and sapiens and some recent discovery seems to give reasons to the multi-regionalism theory but this information are all in conditional it's just OOT doesn't make the unanimity how it is explained.



Your initial point is void humans are all of the same species, the only difference is the concept of race that people seem to like to use even though it has no real scientific relevence.

Quote :

But their BIO show they ARE different species. If the fact you are coming from another world make you a different species we will have a bad surprise in the end.

They would all be different species if they came from a different world unless they somehow share a genetic relation to one another.

Quote :

Even members into a same species can show variety in term of traits, members of a same specie are not clone or just the mix of the traits of their parents. Variety express in different way among individuals and species.

Yes, variety exists within a species, but if the two characters in question have no genetic relation to one another from which to evolve they are two separate species.


All and all gwadahunter nature is full of exceptions. There is no clear cut way to say that character "A" and character "B" are of the same species without genetic testing or a direct relation. Now as much fun as it would be to go around testing the DNA of every fictional character, it is simpler and reasonably accurate to say that if characters that share traits "X" "Y" and "Z" are of the same species. Yes it is true that within a species there is variation and between two unrelated species that there can be similarities, but unless you would like to go through and create an evolutionary chart for all of the infinitely large universe than it seems accurate enough for our uses of it to say that if traits X, Y, and Z are shared that they are of the same species. This is for use in a fictional world not in a scientific laboratory and as much as it pains me to say it science doesn't have to be used to explain everything just most things.

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PostSubject: Re: Should sub-species be put into heir own pages    Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:40 am

Quote :
These two women are more related to southeast Asian population than any subsaharan african populations. They are belonging to indegenous people living in the island of the south of India. The only link they share with Africans it's a common origins of 60 000 years but in many point they are clearly belong to a distinct population. And if you use the Out of Africa Theory, I will answer some recent studies let think non-african population are the result of an admixture between neendertals and sapiens and some recent discovery seems to give reasons to the multi-regionalism theory but this information are all in conditional it's just OOT doesn't make the unanimity how it is explained

I really don't see what you're trying to get at here. All humans on planet Earth are Homo sapiens.

Quote :
But their BIO show they ARE different species. If the fact you are coming from another world make you a different species we will have a bad surprise in the end.

But it does. Creatures from different worlds usually have completely different physical and biological traits than those of another world. Aurora, Katrika, Leppy and many other characters all come from different worlds, and have different traits than Felaryan hybrid species, which makes them a different species.

Delurans, Miritans, Vishmitals and Felaryan-born humans are most likely different species. The genetic/physical/biological differences are just so subtle, or totally unknown, that it is easier to just lump them all in as Humans. Im fine with that, for situations like that.

You can get away with listing the Delurans and Miritans as the same species.

Aurora, for example, is from another world and has a unique set of physical traits and abilities. She is clearly a different species than Felaryan nagas, and should be treated as such.

Quote :
it's still 1 character = 1 specie no matter the specie is the same or not, a character won't belong to more than one specie unless it's a strange halfbreed.

What are you even talking about. Of course someone can only be ONE species at a time. That is how species works. A human can't be Homo sapiens AND Canis lupis (no matter how many people on the internet wish that =P). Even a half-breed wouldn't be two species, it would be its own unique one. When a lion and a tiger mate, they don't create an offspring that is both a lion AND a tiger, they make a Liger, which is a seperate species with its own unique traits.

Right now, most of the characters only have one species, so I don't know what you're getting at. Negeyari is ONLY a Sea Krait Naga, Subeta is ONLY a Canopy Fairy, and so on.

Quote :
It will be true if each harpies species have at least one member. In overall people create specie or characters according to the specie or characters they like or the more popular

Harpies already have defined species, and don't suffer from this problem though.

I really do not know what you're getting at half the time.

Quote :
Even members into a same species can show variety in term of traits, members of a same specie are not clone or just the mix of the traits of their parents. Variety express in different way among individuals and species.

YES. That is why doing things the way Sean proposed is a good idea. Look at Crisis and Fiona. Drastically different tail colorations, and even different tail lengths...and yet they'd both be Arboreal Nagas. These species ideas are broad templates that allows someone to give a character some set traits (like being good at climbing, and preferring to live in trees, in the case of Arboreal Nagas), but still gives them a lot of room as far as physical appearance and secondary traits go.

Quote :
But the community is not DRIVING but HELPING the development of the universe, only Karbo is the one able to do statement or change it no matter what we can say or assume only he can say or not if it's true or not.

Umm, no. The community IS what drives and helps develop this setting. We do the vast majority of the work. All Karbo does is say "Okay, this is good, it can get in" or "I think you should work on it a little more". Its an important position, but its still just giving a thumbs-up or thumbs-down to ideas other people made and worked on by themselves.

Karbo built this house, but the community is who put in all the furniature.

Quote :
but until now she's considered as a a regular fairies with a strange variation.

Yes, until now, because we're finally having a serious discussion about the topic. The main problem is that there are "regular fairies" to begin with. Once that is removed, she can easily be sorted into her own species. She's just too different to be the same as Temi, Aya, Alvar, or even Subeta.

All you're doing is saying "Things work the way they are. I hate change. We shouldn't change anything unless Karbo says we should". That is a terrible attitude to take. Without proactive members of the community thinking about new ideas, and proposing them, Felarya would still be some over-fetished vore-world where the biggest amount of character depth was how many humans they eat, and whether they play with them beforehand.
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PostSubject: Re: Should sub-species be put into heir own pages    Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:15 am

[quote="buddha66667"]Your initial point is void humans are all of the same species, the only difference is the concept of race that people seem to like to use even though it has no real scientific relevence.[quote]
I don't speak about racial theory based on skin color in this example it was not my point but the origin on someone is not writing on your face. These two women have not African descendants like an afro-american or are not belong to any current African ethnic group but are the descendants of the south ancestral population of India who mix with a north ancestral and give the current population of India and are related to people living into southeast Asia than anyone else on Earth.

And the allusion to the Neanderthal admixture with Sapience has nothing racial but scientific, it raises the questions how distant the two specie was in reality and the nature of their relation and the fate of Neandertal. They coexisted during a same time.

[quote="buddha66667"]They would all be different species if they came from a different world unless they somehow share a genetic relation to one another.[quote]
that's my point.

buddha66667 wrote:
All and all gwadahunter nature is full of exceptions. There is no clear cut way to say that character "A" and character "B" are of the same species without genetic testing or a direct relation. Now as much fun as it would be to go around testing the DNA of every fictional character, it is simpler and reasonably accurate to say that if characters that share traits "X" "Y" and "Z" are of the same species. Yes it is true that within a species there is variation and between two unrelated species that there can be similarities, but unless you would like to go through and create an evolutionary chart for all of the infinitely large universe than it seems accurate enough for our uses of it to say that if traits X, Y, and Z are shared that they are of the same species. This is for use in a fictional world not in a scientific laboratory and as much as it pains me to say it science doesn't have to be used to explain everything just most things.

It's not a matter of evolutionary chart, if you read my previous post you will see the fact you can't do genetic test on fictional characters. My point is neither the similarities nor the difference nor the habitat are enough to tell you if someone belong to the same specie or not. You are just making assumptions. If I prefer I can say "A" a human size naga living to Giant tree with a strong affinities with wind are closed relative to "B" living into Deeper Felarya having a strong affinities with earth both share no link with any other neighbour living species who looks more similar. What does it mean ?

A and B share a common origins, They are not related to any of their neighbour it means they are maybe off-worlders or Native species separated during an ancient migration it's possible because all species in Felarya have not a single but multiple origins which make you can create an infinities of species even if they show no visible difference at all.


rcs619 wrote:
I really don't see what you're trying to get at here. All humans on planet Earth are Homo sapiens.

And even that we show a great variety and difference among us even if we are the same specie.

The presence of an neandertal admixture into some humans population who are not living in Africa raise the questions are neandertal and sapiencereally two different specie.

If we came back in Felarya it's not the case. All the humans didn't follow the same path.

rcs619 wrote:
But it does. Creatures from different worlds usually have completely different physical and biological traits than those of another world. Aurora, Katrika, Leppy and many other characters all come from different worlds, and have different traits than Felaryan hybrid species, which makes them a different species.
Yeah, because they don't have the same origin

rcs619 wrote:
The genetic/physical/biological differences are just so subtle, or totally unknown,
But this subtletyu make the classification as a specie very difficult and not obvious.

rcs619 wrote:
Aurora, for example, is from another world and has a unique set of physical traits and abilities. She is clearly a different species than Felaryan nagas, and should be treated as such.
Yep and she's treated as that because she's not a native species and have a different origins

rcs619 wrote:
Umm, no. The community IS what drives and helps develop this setting. We do the vast majority of the work. All Karbo does is say "Okay, this is good, it can get in" or "I think you should work on it a little more". Its an important position, but its still just giving a thumbs-up or thumbs-down to ideas other people made and worked on by themselves.
Only in your head and your friends maybe but it's not the truth. And doing "lobbying" It doesn't interesting me.

rcs619 wrote:
Karbo built this house, but the community is who put in all the furniature.
But HE is still the owner and bringing the furniture won't change that and won't make you more important but just more arrogant as you are now. Look at you, just because your characters appears you start to act a spoiled kids and become annoying when things don't go in your sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Should sub-species be put into heir own pages    Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:04 am

rcs619 wrote:

Umm, no. The community IS what drives and helps develop this setting. We do the vast majority of the work. All Karbo does is say "Okay, this is good, it can get in" or "I think you should work on it a little more". Its an important position, but its still just giving a thumbs-up or thumbs-down to ideas other people made and worked on by themselves.

Um so that's your point of view ? well I'm sorry but I beg to differ. "all I do" is not just give thumbs up and down.

Gwadahunter : Stop with the angry accusations please. your points can be nice and valid but if becomes pointless if you start to call names.

I think there is some nice ideas in this thread that could help define better the races indeed. However I remain not very much in favor of an approach based on genus or so... that would sound a bit too much like earth I think and I'm a bit wary on a too scientific approach on things.

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PostSubject: Re: Should sub-species be put into heir own pages    Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:38 am

Quote :
Um so that's your point of view ? well I'm sorry but I beg to differ. "all I do" is not just give thumbs up and down.

Way to infer something I didn't mean. Still have that confrontational, negative bias to me, I see.

As far as the COMMUNITY goes, all you do is give a thumbs-up/thumbs-down. You very rarely give any new ideas, but instead comment and rate the merits of ideas other people submit. The community keeps the car moving along, and you're the one who steers it to be sure its heading in the right direction.

Now, as far as the SETTING goes, you have your artwork and your mangas. The mangas (well, the real ones. Not the vore comic), especially, have done a lot of good by giving an accurate representation of the how the setting actually is ^^

Also, way to ignore everything I've been saying in ALL my posts on the last 3 pages to single out that one line. Good to know my opinion counts for so much around here.

Quote :
I think there is some nice ideas in this thread that could help define better the races indeed. However I remain not very much in favor of an approach based on genus or so... that would sound a bit too much like earth I think and I'm a bit wary on a too scientific approach on things.

Yes, yes, we know you don't like science.

No one has talked about the genus idea for 3 pages. We've been discussing Sean's idea for giving current nagas a species.

Well, gwada may have been discussing the genus idea, but I've never actually been able to figure out what his posts actually say, so Im not sure.

See, this is something that has always annoyed me. There is a good discussion going on, about an idea that has real merit. You haven't said anything on the topic in pages, and when you finally post again, its just to single out a couple posts you didn't like by other people. You didn't even comment on the discussion at hand at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Should sub-species be put into heir own pages    Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:14 pm

I personally think that these ideas have gone a bit too far...

I mean, is the point of this thread to make something like this?

I think that the idea sean has given to the first start is enough...digging it deeper and deeper would only make it too hard to understand and there would be no fun anymore. Now I don't want to elaborate because it's simply too long and it will hardly be understood because at the moment my english kinda sucks.

Now I'll just put in a few sentences...I don't think Karbo needs the community to bring new ideas to felarya. I'm pretty sure he can solo it at any moment. Karbo was also pointing he wasn't just saying yes or no on each ideas, nothing bad towards you, rcs.
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PostSubject: Re: Should sub-species be put into heir own pages    Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:22 pm

Quote :
I mean, is the point of this thread to make something like this?

NO

It is to create 6 - 10 species of naga to put the currently species-less nagas into.

Sean's idea:

Arboreal naga - Nature, wind, earth

River naga - water, ice

Volcanic naga - fire, earth

Subterranean naga - earth, dark

Storm naga - lightning, wind

Arctic naga - ice, water, wind, earth (in Frost Peak)

Desert naga - fire, earth, light

Something like this, is what we're talking about. Currently, 90% of the canon Nagas just have "Giant Naga" as their species.

For example, under this system, Crisis and Fiona would become Arboreal nagas. It would just help add some variety to nagas, and establish some basic species that newcomers could use, if they don't want to make up their own species from scratch. Its nice, simple, and easy to apply. The genus idea has been dropped, since Karbo didn't like it.

Quote :
Now I'll just put in a few sentences...I don't think Karbo needs the community to bring new ideas to felarya. I'm pretty sure he can solo it at any moment. Karbo was also pointing he wasn't just saying yes or no on each ideas, nothing bad towards you, rcs.

I never said, or meant to imply that Karbo couldn't create new ideas for Felarya. I was just stating that he doesn't do it often, and spends most of the time approving or rejecting ideas that other people submit. As well as doing artwork, and making his mangas for the setting.
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PostSubject: Re: Should sub-species be put into heir own pages    Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:24 pm

And my idea was simply to define species differently and group them, so if someone wanted to make a new species, they could instantly use the information for each species group.
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PostSubject: Re: Should sub-species be put into heir own pages    Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:28 pm

Actually, now that I think about it, I think it might be better if nagas gained an elemental affinity based on the environment in which they were born and grew up in. For example, assuming that a naga tribe lived in Evernight, they would develop an affinity for darkness magic. However, Evernight is really a forest with a canopy so dense there is very little sun that reach it. So technically, a naga living there would be a forest naga who have adapted to life in Evernight, with stronger magic detection to act as some sort of equivalent to heat vision.
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PostSubject: Re: Should sub-species be put into heir own pages    Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:02 pm

I like Krisexy26's Idea, because It seems to be easy for the scientific mind to understand. But...If Felarya's a Magic world, shouldn't it be classified differently? For example, the Nagas are classified by their element. So, technically, I'm saying that maybe they should be classified by their magic/species? Because right now, I find that the Wiki's well organized.
Sorry if I don't make sense, and sorry if someone's already said this, because I just kinda wanted to say what I was thinking...
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PostSubject: Re: Should sub-species be put into heir own pages    Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:43 pm

Chibi-Hiruki wrote:
I like Krisexy26's Idea, because It seems to be easy for the scientific mind to understand.
What do you mean, Krisexy's idea?
She didn't propose one, at least, not that I can see.
I interpreted her post as using that image to ask if that was what rcs619, myself and louis were talking about.
This is an example of what I'd like to do, using nagas and made up species names.
Image:
 

Note that this is an example. I just quickly thought up names based off characters and the naga article on the wiki. I'm not saying my example is exactly how it should be, this simply shows the lines I'm thinking along.

In the wiki, only species groups would be listed. Any level above that would be a little too far I think.


Chibi-Hiruki wrote:
But...If Felarya's a Magic world, shouldn't it be classified differently? For example, the Nagas are classified by their element. So, technically, I'm saying that maybe they should be classified by their magic/species?
Well... No. binding elements to species like that isn't a good idea, I believe it's too restrictive. However, that doesn't mean that we can't have some species that are more likely to use certain forms of magic.
Chibi-Hiruki wrote:
Because right now, I find that the Wiki's well organized.
It's actually undergoing reorganisation at the moment.
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