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Krisexy26
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:17 am

I don't think anyone said that they didn't wanted you to write it. I also am very curious to see the result of this story.

The only thing that concerns many people is if you will somehow respect the canon overall. Some of them aren't your persos and we just want you to succeed in the making of the story.
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:38 am

Other than Karbo, who does write that "canon" anyway? The Felaryan "canon" seems to be like "whoever comes first, gets canon and all others have to be accurately modelled after this". This may be good in order to have something like consistency inbetween all ideas when put together, but it massively restricts new ideas. In a world that is said to have unending possibilities (which is actually one of their charms) I do not like that.

So I'd say as long as you keep all characters that do NOT belong to you canon all over the way you should pull of your thing nonetheless. You did great work so far, i really appreciate your art, your writings AND your ideas which are far better thought through than some of the "canon" things.


So I herebywant to encourage you to go on no matter what and even if someone says "OMG THIS IS AGAINST THE CANON!!!" then just kick their butts with "I don't care, this is MY canon!". ^^


And also...
If you're lucky, people may like your Idea over the "official" (does official even exist, aside from karbos work?) canon and decide they want to partially believe in your canon rather than the already existing, if those are opposed to each other - thus making your Ideas canon through the sheer amount of people liking yours.


If you ask me, this whole Canon-obsession-thing is shitty anyway. My Angel Juliana for example basically respects all the rules that were regarding Angels, heaven and what not in the wiki, has been checked and approved by Karbo (for fitness to felarya, habits, abilities, powerlevel and so on) even before I posted her here, has one (I'd say) good artwork and a very detailed background (similar to your characters in length). Thus she's far better fleshed out than some of the original ones, yet she didn't become canon for whatever reason like "someone with enough authority didn't find her interesting enough". In the end she recieved very little interest (three!!! people actually commented) and probably has been already forgotten. So like... two weeks or so of work (including the time for research and drawing the character) have probably gone to waste even though I tried to make her according to the canon and thus be able to implement her into the felaryan world. So what is she now? Does she even exist in the felaryan world now or is she considered to be a fancharacter which is nothing more than an idea? I'm her creator and even I don't know anymore.


This may have been a little off-topic, but I wanted to show why I started to think that creating "Canon-stuff" is the legitimation of very few "elite-users" who have been here for a long time, leaving little to no chance of letting other things become canon, if they're not according to their likings (i.e. according to the things they've already written).
I completely respect the authority of Karbo though, since it is his world, I more focus on the other contributors. I cannot think that there is such a small community that is really contributing to Felarya, so it may be this "elite-circle" of people, creating their world.
I may be wrong and please tell me the truth IF I'm wrong but to me, someone who has been absent for a few years, finally came back, and thus looks at the whole picture bjectively, it really looks like this.




So no matter what others say about this so called "canon", I look forward to read your story. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:03 am

Karbo is the only one that can pick what is canon. As for the canon itself, its a mix of facts in the wiki, and several things Karbo and forum-members have agreed on that have yet to be put in the wiki (Twinkie theory is a good example of one of those).

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The Felaryan "canon" seems to be like "whoever comes first, gets canon and all others have to be accurately modelled after this".

Yes, that's pretty much what a canon is. Its ground rules, continuity and consistancy for other people to follow, in order to help the setting mesh together and make sense.

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This may be good in order to have something like consistency inbetween all ideas when put together, but it massively restricts new ideas

Welcome to a group-setting project. I'd also argue the "massively resticting" part. All it does is set up rules you have to work within. That kind of environment is better for making ideas anyway. When you have to make something fit into a set of rules, your idea tends to be more thought out, more mature, and better overall than if you had 100% free-reign.

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In a world that is said to have unending possibilities (which is actually one of their charms) I do not like that.

It IS a world of unending possibilities though, but within the rules of the canon.

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So I herebywant to encourage you to go on no matter what and even if someone says "OMG THIS IS AGAINST THE CANON!!!" then just kick their butts with "I don't care, this is MY canon!". ^^

That works up to a point, but you should still strive to attempt to keep stories as close to the canon as possible. A story isn't just about the author, it is about other people, specifically outsiders as well. Your story needs to be able to act like an ambassador of Felarya and the Felarya community to new people looking to get into the community, since they don't know what is, and isn't canon, and are going to assume whatever they read represents the canon. I don't even want to think about how many potential, new members have been driven away already after looking at some of the crap that's made it into the Felarya group. There's some really nice stuff hidden in there, but a lot of it just...is not good, and not a good representation of what Felarya is about.

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And also...
If you're lucky, people may like your Idea over the "official" (does official even exist, aside from karbos work?) canon and decide they want to partially believe in your canon rather than the already existing, if those are opposed to each other - thus making your Ideas canon through the sheer amount of people liking yours.

Canon doesn't work that way. Popular ideas can make it into the canon if everyone support them, sure (Twikie theory is a good example of this, as it had almost unanimous support), but the canon isn't a democracy. New additions needs to be discussied by the community, since it affects all our stories and timelines, and in the end, only Karbo can decide whether it makes the cut.

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If you ask me, this whole Canon-obsession-thing is shitty anyway

The canon represents years of work on the setting by dozens of people, it is certainly not, shitty. It keeps the world in line, puts limits on what can and can't be done, and helps to make Felarya a more consistant and complete place.

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Thus she's far better fleshed out than some of the original ones, yet she didn't become canon for whatever reason like "someone with enough authority didn't find her interesting enough".

The only one who can add characters to the setting is Karbo. Characters, in particular, are probably the most difficult thing to get added to the canon. Some really deserving characters took years to get added. Some ones that everyone accepts as canon still haven't been added (Negeyari, for example. Karbo is likely waiting for her story to actually cross paths with Felarya before adding her to the wiki). Karbo tends to watch characters for a while before adding them, to see how they mesh with the world, and how their writer develops them.

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In the end she recieved very little interest (three!!! people actually commented) and probably has been already forgotten

Welcome to DA. Barely anyone actually comments. The only people that comment on my stories are my friends, and people who know me from the forum. Gotta be social, and put yoruself out there if you want comments.

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So like... two weeks or so of work (including the time for research and drawing the character) have probably gone to waste even though I tried to make her according to the canon and thus be able to implement her into the felaryan world. So what is she now? Does she even exist in the felaryan world now or is she considered to be a fancharacter which is nothing more than an idea? I'm her creator and even I don't know anymore.

Who cares if she's canon or not?

She's your character. As long as YOU enjoy writing about her, then she's fine. Being canon doesn't mean anything. What matters is that you enjoy what YOU are writing. If you enjoy your own work, others can tell, and will eventually gravitate to it. Writing for the right reasons is just as important as the content of the story.

Don't get too hung up on making the canon. Even the people who have characters in the wiki usually just have one or two out of all their characters (unless your frenchsnack or zoekin, who have like 20 characters in the wiki between them =P ).

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This may have been a little off-topic, but I wanted to show why I started to think that creating "Canon-stuff" is the legitimation of very few "elite-users" who have been here for a long time, leaving little to no chance of letting other things become canon, if they're not according to their likings (i.e. according to the things they've already written).

No one "creates the canon". We ALL just propose ideas and suggestions, and Karbo picks and chooses what makes the canon. It is the content of the idea that matters, not the user submitting it. Look at Slimetoad, he came in as a new member, submitted a really great idea for snail-people, and it made the wiki within a week.

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I completely respect the authority of Karbo though, since it is his world, I more focus on the other contributors. I cannot think that there is such a small community that is really contributing to Felarya, so it may be this "elite-circle" of people, creating their world.
I may be wrong and please tell me the truth IF I'm wrong but to me, someone who has been absent for a few years, finally came back, and thus looks at the whole picture bjectively, it really looks like this.

Karbo is the only one who makes the canon. Does he possibly listen to older members, who know the setting better, a little more often? Possibly, but I've seen new members come in with really good ideas, and they were listened to just fine. The only thing close to an "elite group that establishes the canon" is the forum (DA really is just a dumping ground, more than anything). This is where all changes and additions to the canon are discussed. A topic will come up, people will talk about it, and Karbo decides whether it should, or should not, be added, or if it just needs to be altered or tweaked a little. It isn't like the people who can discuss a topic is limited though, this IS an open forum, and all members have the right to propose ideas or voice their opinions.
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PostSubject: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:08 am

Bah, I've been thinking about it, and I just wanted to add it here.

Amaroq, I think you are absolutely right : canon somehows lowers the possibility of this world we thought was a non-ending possibilities world. But, on the other side, I think it is just good to have a basis. You know, something to rely on Razz Though, on a personal note, I think the canon is now way too big and the "community" hurries at you when a slight detail doesnt fit. I guess it's "normal" in some ways. But Felarya certainly got derailed a bit to fit the vision of other people than Karbo had of Felarya. I'm speculating. It's the feeling I have.

Anyways, it's not what I wanted to talk about. I'll state two obvious facts here: One, Felarya is a world of fiction. Second, a story is a work of fiction. Now, we can elaborate on a few things here. If a story is a work of fiction, does it have to respect at 100% the reality? Answers no, as we know it. Then again, if a story is a work of fiction, does it have to respect at 100% the fictionnal world it's writing about? The answer that might pop should be yes. Everything that has been wrote (forget biographies and all) has never happened! Of course, they can link to real events, but the whole setting is fantasy. So you can play with what I just said. Instead of respecting the canon, PLAY with it Razz Mock the ideas that you think aren't right. But I have to point here that it's a whole new thing concerning canon characters... But yeah...make a fiction of what is already fiction. That is something awesome! Add the fiction to it

So, make your story Clair. And if it does not respect the canon, just point out you never said anywhere it was the REAL way it has been done. You're just writing a story, that's all Razz

As for the comment below....

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It IS a world of unending possibilities though, but within the rules of the canon.

This doesn't make sense at all. If there are rules, it's non unending. Somehwere, it'll block.

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Welcome to a group-setting project. I'd also argue the "massively resticting" part. All it does is set up rules you have to work within. That kind of environment is better for making ideas anyway.

I have to disagree. The best environment to create is where there is no rules. The best way to create is when you make your own rules.

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A story isn't just about the author, it is about other people, specifically outsiders as well.

Mmh...A story is mainly the author's thing my dear. You never know who will actually read your story. But yeah i see the "isnt just", but i would put it like "A story is the author's thing, readers are a bonus"

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I don't even want to think about how many potential, new members have been driven away already after looking at some of the crap that's made it into the Felarya group. There's some really nice stuff hidden in there, but a lot of it just...is not good, and not a good representation of what Felarya is about.

That is a very dangerous thing to say. It may attracts people like me who see talent everywhere. It's just that they do not receive the right feedback to progress. My first stories were shitties, 2 men particularly took care of me and helped me improve. Now, I have a kinda huge fanbase for a simple felaryan author. All we need is time and patience. In fact, I've seen many people that have been driven away because of the nasty comments they received. I think you improve much more when you receive positive comments rather than negatives. There is a way to help.

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Twikie theory is a good example of this, as it had almost unanimous support

I've never heard of that Twikie thing! o: If you aren't mad at me for replying at you, mind telling what it is? Smile

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(Negeyari, for example. Karbo is likely waiting for her story to actually cross paths with Felarya before adding her to the wiki

This makes sense I think o.o

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Who cares if she's canon or not?

She's your character. As long as YOU enjoy writing about her, then she's fine. Being canon doesn't mean anything. What matters is that you enjoy what YOU are writing. If you enjoy your own work, others can tell, and will eventually gravitate to it. Writing for the right reasons is just as important as the content of the story.

Nicely said!

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(unless your frenchsnack or zoekin, who have like 20 characters in the wiki between them =P )

Now I'll be blunt here: I think you will make yourself (and ourselves) a favour if you would stop bringing up the fact that frenchsnack has more characters than anyone on the wiki. You said Karbo was chosing the canon persos? Good then. You're somehow implying that if people want their characters in the wiki, they shall do like frenchsnack. This will bring many many good stories in my opinion, dont you agree?

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Possibly, but I've seen new members come in with really good ideas, and they were listened to just fine.

That is absolutely not true.

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This is where all changes and additions to the canon are discussed. A topic will come up, people will talk about it. [...] It isn't like the people who can discuss a topic is limited though, this IS an open forum, and all members have the right to propose ideas or voice their opinions

This also is not true. They may have the right to express their opinions, but let me tell you they'll meet a wall if it differs from the view that many people has.


(on a completely side note, this is my 500th comment! o: I dunno if i shall be happy or not...For the moment, there is absolutely no joy inside me o.o Just a simple..."Ah...well...cool :/")
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:36 am

Split from Character discussion.

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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:44 am

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But Felarya certainly got derailed a bit to fit the vision of other people than Karbo had of Felarya. I'm speculating. It's the feeling I have.

Karbo is the ONLY person that can make changes to, or add to the canon. Anything in the wiki was approved and/or added by Karbo himself. He also points out on the forum when people are mistaken about aspects of the canon. He's the only one that has any real control over the setting.

Your speculation is not only wrong, but is the kind of thought that only creates distrust, and the misconception that there are some kind of factions within the community.

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This doesn't make sense at all. If there are rules, it's non unending. Somehwere, it'll block.

You can do whatever you want, but they have to be within the rules. You can make a Fairy, for example, make her any way you want, make her look anyway you want, and have just about any powers you want...but she can't go around shrinking giants to 2 inches tall. That's what Im talking about. There is a huge about of free reign, but there ARE set boundries and limits to keep things in line with the setting.

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I have to disagree. The best environment to create is where there is no rules. The best way to create is when you make your own rules.

No, the best way to create is with set rules and goals. It makes ideas focused, and makes them more thought out and consistant.

But I feel this is more of a literary philosophy debate that has no "right answer"

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Mmh...A story is mainly the author's thing my dear. You never know who will actually read your story. But yeah i see the "isnt just", but i would put it like "A story is the author's thing, readers are a bonus"

That changes when you're doing a group setting. You're a representative of that setting, and if you care about it, you should want to represent it well.

Other people will look to your work as a representation of the setting. Honestly, that's why Felarya has such a huge bias against it. People read some of the stories that are on DA that are nothing like the real Felarya, or outright go against it, and they assume the whole setting is like that. People who are writing a Felarya story should have enough respect for Karbo, and the others who helped build this world, to treat Felarya with respect, and represent it properly in their stories.

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In fact, I've seen many people that have been driven away because of the nasty comments they received. I think you improve much more when you receive positive comments rather than negatives. There is a way to help.

It takes a mixture of positive and negative responses. But I feel we're getting more into personal preferrence and literary phiolosphy again.

Im not necissarily talking about badly written stories, which CAN improve. My issue is with stories that present Felarya in a completely incorrect, or even insulting way. Some people just don't know, and do fine once you tell them where they may be wrong, but others just refuse. Look at people like Trymeike and Thebigman, for example. They have actually BLOCKED people on DA who have tried to give them critiques, and point out where their stories may completely break the canon, or represent Felarya in a bad light.

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I've never heard of that Twikie thing! o: If you aren't mad at me for replying at you, mind telling what it is?

You've been civil and calm. No reason to be mad =D

Twinkie Theory: A concept originally proposed by GREGOLE. It addresses the common misconception that giant Felaryan predators ONLY eat humans, and/or that humans are the main part of a giant predator's diet. Twinkie theory states that...
- The majority of a predator's diet consists of non-human things, like small animals, plants, fruit, fish, and whatever they can find in the jungle.
- Humans, and human-sized people, are more like a rare treat than a dietary stable. They are kind of the predator version of a twinkie (a sweet snack-cake popular in the USA), or a cookie. Something that predators really enjoy, but don't get to eat all the time.

*NOTE* Crisis is an exception to this rule, due to her upbringing. She was fed shrunken down humans whenever she wanted, and essentially spoiled. Because she got them whenever she wanted, as an adult she will try and go after humans first, if possible.

Karbo has agreed wtih Twinkie theory in the past, and it has become an accepted fact among forum members. It just hasn't gotten into the wiki yet, because of the huge backlog of stuff in front of it.

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Now I'll be blunt here: I think you will make yourself (and ourselves) a favour if you would stop bringing up the fact that frenchsnack has more characters than anyone on the wiki. You said Karbo was chosing the canon persos? Good then. You're somehow implying that if people want their characters in the wiki, they shall do like frenchsnack. This will bring many many good stories in my opinion, dont you agree?

Actually, I was trying to lighten things up a bit, by exaggerating how many characters Zoekin and Frenchsnack have in the wiki, followed by a " =P ". The real number is closer to 12 or so.

I don't have many issues with Frenchsnack's characters. He's expanded on their bios lately, and most of them are fine. My only issues with his stories are some of his choices for plot development, and the idea of the Felarya Express as a whole. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with his work, and he does a fine job.

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That is absolutely not true.

It is true. It depends on the person, their ideas, and their willingness to tweak them to fit with the setting. This forum is not an uninviting place. So long as you come in, act like a decent enough person, and are willing to take critiques, and advice from people who know the setting, and want to help you get settled in.

Its all about having the right attitude ^^

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This also is not true. They may have the right to express their opinions, but let me tell you they'll meet a wall if it differs from the view that many people has.

That isn't necissarily true. It is entirely situational, and depends on what is being discussed, and what kind of idea is submitted.

Nearly everything is situational. You can't just paint it as a black or white thing.
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:13 am

Krisexy26 wrote:
Quote :
Possibly, but I've seen new members come in with really good ideas, and they were listened to just fine.

That is absolutely not true.
Among all the things you said, this stuck out the most to me.
To say it is absolutely not true... That's just a lie.
Bonzaigirl, zersergathant, Slimetoad, Rezec, walkingbyself, buddha66667, gt500x.
These are just some of the best examples of people who have come onto the forum and started posting ideas that have been listened too. As cliff said, Slimetoad had his achigates idea into the wiki in a week. Look at the responses on the original thread; where was the unwelcoming, hostile attitude? Same goes for walkingbyself, rezec and all the others I listed earlier. Where are the hostile and unwelcoming responses?

I really don't see it.
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:49 am

ow... I didn't want to kick off a big discussion around the canon-thing. ^^'


First, I wanted to correct something that has been misunderstood:
Quote :

If you ask me, this whole Canon-obsession-thing is shitty anyway
I meant the canon obsession - diffaming everything that is not canon or close to being not to be. When people point out even the smallest difference from the words in the wiki. It doesn't happen often, but sometimes it seems like things get appreciated only (or at least more) when they're 100% as the canon states.



Now for my actual post ^^'




Ok, well, I generally agree with your (rcs619) statements, that a BASIS is essential to work with. Without that, Felarya would simply be empty or overloaded with different settings which may stand against each other (maybe making "Felarya" a solar system with several planets? <- Then again, the wiki says it doesn't even have Space at all).
But this basis should be exactly that: Basic information. The rest should be up to the writer or artist or be "optional". like all those different plants and animals and artifacts within the wiki. I enjoy reading them but they're mostly written by the same people.

I went over to the wiki just now in order to be sure about what I'm saying (don't want to make a fuss of something that is just wrong and thus hurt people). There are more different people named in the credits that I remembered, but it's really like the same people are being read at each page. Zoekin, Sean otokami, silent eric and french snack are listed extremely often. This is completely fine and shows how much they've contributed. A lot of content in the wiki means that at least the same amount of content has been created by these people which I, as part of the felaryan community, appreciate and respect.
But when I do compare these wiki-entrance-credits with the "New ideas" section on these forums their content definately is overrepresented. I do not mean to say that their Ideas should not be contributed because of that, but there sure is a whole bunch of great ideas which are not contributed - would probably be contributed, if someone more well-known would have posted them. Maybe because they're overseen, maybe because their author is "new" and thus has no "fans" or the like, maybe because of something completely different. This is what I meant with "Felarya is mostly done by some elite-users".

What I'm trying to say here is that I'm not against content itself, I'm against the limitation and selection that comes from it.
I'll give an example.
Angels are pretty weak fleshed out, having just 2 subspecies and only 3 wiki-articles by TheQuantumMechanic, Zoekin and ZomBynx. There are only 3 Angels which count as canon, 2 of them by Zoekin. One of them has a article (which represents one of the other two as well.). This leaves two Wiki entrances: "Hell and Heaven" as well as "Angels" - the main article.
That's all.
Rule is: If I want to make an angel, I have to do it according to the Infos by these 3 people. Some canon rules even say that these facts ALWAYS apply so as soon as you don't include these, you're already against canon and someone will tell you right away.
Then I look at the angels-section here in the forums and find far more articles about angels by much more authors than just 3. So why are some ideas canon and others not? why do I have to follow QuantumMechanics Ideas for an angel but may completely ignore gt500x's ideas and still stay canon? Why does Markie (by zoekin) definately exist in the world but Claire (by greekmuscle/claire in the forums), who has great artwork, a hell of a big character story, is not mentioned with one word in the wiki (or here on the forums, outside greeks threads) and thus not known until you stumple on her in an artwork or story? Even worse, although I do not know all details, but it seemed that he has actually been driven away by the community since his ideas are not that canon as others may have wanted them to be.


The following resembles characters and Races only.
RCS said implementing characters would be the most difficuilt aspect, I say it's the easiest. The really hard things are the overall descriptions, since they generally apply. Instead of many CANON RULES for creating new work you should give little rules but MANY EXAMPLES, I mean many individual characters to show the big range of possibilities, rather than say "An angel always apologies before eating their prey but this is the ONLY difference since their stomach is as deadly as that of a succubus. Also, Purifier Angels wear a rapier which may shrink enemies." just because one or two persons thought it was a good idea.
I want to defuse this "bomb" a little bit now: My Angel neither does apology for eating you, nor is her stomach deadly for sure - she doesn't even have a rapier (rather than a common sword) and karbo still approved of her and thought she was well designed. So there IS acceptance for variations, but before getting the actual OK from the big boss (^^) I really felt uneasy with my idea - just because I was breaking several "Always/Never" rules at once. Rules, that, through their literal means, naturally do not accept exeptions - thus limiting you in your freedom as an artist big time and for no apparent reason. So if you're a hardcore-canonist you would at least mention this violation of the canon or find other details that have to be "fixed". Some even may cause a reaction like "How the hell was I supposed to know THAT!?" - especcially when they're not listed in their proper place in the wiki. Most of these details people hint at are no big deal and may be fixed without any problems (those are no problem and I actually welcome them since I learn from them), but others may be worse and destroy complete concepts for stories since parts of them could be crucial. That is when canon becomes bad.



In the end, Canon has its advantages and disadvantages. that's only natural and cannot be changed. Canon also is necessary, I agree to that. But there should be less rules for creating new stuff and more Individuals that represent the possibilities that can be done - even by following all the rules. Also, Canon should present a whole bunch of possibilities or backdoors, so people may variate. Nagas are a good example, the only thing that's common to them is their tail. ^^ So if I want to make a Naga, I have way more freedom than making an angel which is kind of predefined by 50% and thus easy to violate the canon.
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:31 am

Quote :
I went over to the wiki just now in order to be sure about what I'm saying (don't want to make a fuss of something that is just wrong and thus hurt people). There are more different people named in the credits that I remembered, but it's really like the same people are being read at each page. Zoekin, Sean otokami, silent eric and french snack are listed extremely often. This is completely fine and shows how much they've contributed. A lot of content in the wiki means that at least the same amount of content has been created by these people which I, as part of the felaryan community, appreciate and respect.
But when I do compare these wiki-entrance-credits with the "New ideas" section on these forums their content definately is overrepresented. I do not mean to say that their Ideas should not be contributed because of that, but there sure is a whole bunch of great ideas which are not contributed - would probably be contributed, if someone more well-known would have posted them. Maybe because they're overseen, maybe because their author is "new" and thus has no "fans" or the like, maybe because of something completely different. This is what I meant with "Felarya is mostly done by some elite-users".

I'd honestly say its more about quantity than about being elite. Sean has one of the highest post-counts on the forum, and Eric has submitted dozens of ideas on his idea thread (only a handful of which stuck and got into the wiki). Zoekin has been writing since the early days of Felarya, and Frenchsnack has like 200 stories (I know its only 70 or so =P ). The quantity, and the overall quality of their work explains why they have so many characters and ideas in.

Its about particpation, more than anything I think. You get back what you put into it ^^

Also, they may get listed a lot, but dozens of people have contributed to the canon. Its not like there are 5 people who have built the setting up.

Quote :
What I'm trying to say here is that I'm not against content itself, I'm against the limitation and selection that comes from it.
I'll give an example.
Angels are pretty weak fleshed out, having just 2 subspecies and only 3 wiki-articles by TheQuantumMechanic, Zoekin and ZomBynx. There are only 3 Angels which count as canon, 2 of them by Zoekin. One of them has a article (which represents one of the other two as well.). This leaves two Wiki entrances: "Hell and Heaven" as well as "Angels" - the main article.
That's all.
Rule is: If I want to make an angel, I have to do it according to the Infos by these 3 people. Some canon rules even say that these facts ALWAYS apply so as soon as you don't include these, you're already against canon and someone will tell you right away.

Angels were a tough place to start, honestly. Like Succubi, they haven't been expanded on much. Plus they are divine beings, who have access to divine magic and size-shifting, which can make them difficult to use. They're going to be stronger than most anything they encounter on a mortal plane.

Quote :
Why does Markie (by zoekin) definately exist in the world but Claire (by greekmuscle/claire in the forums), who has great artwork, a hell of a big character story, is not mentioned with one word in the wiki (or here on the forums, outside greeks threads) and thus not known until you stumple on her in an artwork or story?

Because Markie has a very minor effect on the setting.

Clare is the daughter of a famous historical dridder, queen of the dridder empire, linked to numerous historic events and canon characters. Chuck still needs to get with everyone, and figure out a timeline that meshes with Karbo's and keeps everyone happy. That's the lot he drew by making a character so entrenched in so many other things. She isn't in the wiki yet, because Chuck hasn't told her story, hasn't finallized a timeline that meshes with the canon one Karbo has in mind, and we don't know what impact she will have on the world as a whole.

Quote :
RCS said implementing characters would be the most difficuilt aspect, I say it's the easiest

Characters are hard because they actually effect the world, and other people in it. That is why it is so important that they mesh with the setting.

---- Going to seperate this, because i think its important -----

The thing to remember is that the species listed in the wiki are not the ONLY ones. They aren't hard rules. They are only the KNOWN species. If angels only have two known types, you're more than welcome to make up your own. What matters is that it fits in with the setting.

Take my Frost Sprites for example. It used to only be Storm Sprites and Dusk Nymphs for known hybrid Fairy types...but I wanted to make a type of Fairy/Ice Elemental hybrid species. So I did. I just made sure that their powers fit within a similar range to the other hybrids, wrote up a bio, and they got in the wiki.

The canon is ALWAYS growing. Creativity is encouraged. If there's a blank spot where you think something can go, then try making up something to fill it.

The canon, for the most part isn't about hard rules. Its a series of guidelines. It isn't about "You have to make your character like this!" its more like "Just don't go to crazy and do something like this". Make a Fairy, but don't have her go shrinking giants. Make a rugged adventurer, but don't have him going around one-shotting every pred he sees with his anti-tank rifle. The canon is more about discouraging extremes, and unbalanced things. It isn't meant to keep new ideas from being proposed.

This is a living canon, not a static one. Always changing, always growing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Waaaaaaaaaaaait, Amaroq. Aren't you that guy that used to have the eagles in his avatar? WOW, its been ages since you've been around these parts!
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:44 am

Amaroq wrote:
...

Um well I see your point concerning the canon, and I agree with a good part of it.

The wiki must be here as a guide. Something to engage creativity rather than stifle it.
In your case, if you want to make an angel but with traits that are not exactly conforming to what is written in the angel entry I say go for it. I personally don't believe in absolute rules.

Now you also indirectly point to the fact that , in the past, it was a lot easier to get things into the canon than it is now. That comes from the fact there is a real worry from my part of the world getting to big too fast, and having too many characters around.
It's clear that there is some idea that made it back then, that may have more difficulties to enter now.

As for angels, well you are picking a rather particular species here. indeed they aren't much as developped as some others. That's partly because Angels are not very numerous in Felarya and that the whole concept behind Hell and Heaven is still.. a bit vague and hard to grasp in my mind.
But keep also in mind that the wiki is being updated and fleshed out as time go. ( By the way by default, when no name is cited in an article, it means I'm the one who created it ^^; )


rcs619 wrote:


Twinkie Theory: A concept originally proposed by GREGOLE. It addresses the common misconception that giant Felaryan predators ONLY eat humans, and/or that humans are the main part of a giant predator's diet. Twinkie theory states that...
- The majority of a predator's diet consists of non-human things, like small animals, plants, fruit, fish, and whatever they can find in the jungle.
- Humans, and human-sized people, are more like a rare treat than a dietary stable. They are kind of the predator version of a twinkie (a sweet snack-cake popular in the USA), or a cookie. Something that predators really enjoy, but don't get to eat all the time.

*NOTE* Crisis is an exception to this rule, due to her upbringing. She was fed shrunken down humans whenever she wanted, and essentially spoiled. Because she got them whenever she wanted, as an adult she will try and go after humans first, if possible.

Karbo has agreed wtih Twinkie theory in the past, and it has become an accepted fact among forum members. It just hasn't gotten into the wiki yet, because of the huge backlog of stuff in front of it.
.


Um that twinkle theory is not something I'm going to put in the wiki as a general rule or something. I have already changed what had to be changed in the course of time, reformulating articles and so.

As for Crisis ...
o.o

Wow where this one comes from ?
Crisis an exception ? Err sorry but that' simply not true at all... There is plenty of predators who act like her
The only way Crisis is an exception is among nagas in that she has been raised by fairies and tend to have their mindset and think like them, rather than like other nagas do. But among predators ? she's not an exception at all...


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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:57 am

Quote :
Um that twinkle theory is not something I'm going to put in the wiki as a general rule or something. I have already changed what had to be changed in the course of time, reformulating articles and so.

Fine, fine. It is mostly common sense anyway. Of course humans aren't the only thing they eat. Plus, there's enough people on the forum that can spell out twinkie theory for newcomers that don't know.

Quote :
As for Crisis ...
o.o

Wow where this one comes from ?
Crisis an exception ? Err sorry but that' simply not true at all... There is plenty of predators who act like her
The only way Crisis is an exception is among nagas in that she has been raised by fairies and tend to have their mindset and think like them, rather than other nagas. But among predators ? she's not an exception at all...

She is an exception though, and does act different than other predators.

- All egg-born predators go through a phase where they are still too small to eat humans, but are too big to subsist on small animals, berries and such anymore. They are forced to spend years learning to be creative in obtaining food, and surviving on whatever they are able to eat. Most predators would never even eat their first human until they are over 40 years old.

- Most predators are also somewhat territorial. They live within a defined home region. Most predators do not wander halfway across the jungle to find humans to eat if there are none around. They just find something else, and made do. They are more realistic about their diets.

Crisis, well, she was raised by fairies. She never had to go through that intermediately-sized phase, because her adoptive parents always shrunk humans to the right size for her to eat. She got her favorite treat whenever she wanted, and never had to go without. Now, look at her as an adult....

- Humans are Crisis' first choice for a meal. She looks for them before anything else. That is not normal.

- Crisis will travel, sometimes a considerable distance, just to try and find humans to eat. Most predators would not do that. They'd probably look for humans, sure, but they are going to make do with what's available around them.

Crisis IS like a Fairy. That is what I am arguing. The reason Fairies are so voracious, and so dangerous, is because they always were able to eat humans (and are able to cover huge amounts of territory thanks to their wings). She hunts, and eats like a Fairy. Not a naga, dridder, or any other egg-born predator.
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:02 pm

ok, formulated like that I see your point. That's an interesting one.

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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:03 pm

[quote="rcs619"]
Quote :
Because Markie has a very minor effect on the setting.

Clare is the daughter of a famous historical dridder, queen of the dridder empire, linked to numerous historic events and canon characters. Chuck still needs to get with everyone, and figure out a timeline that meshes with Karbo's and keeps everyone happy. That's the lot he drew by making a character so entrenched in so many other things. She isn't in the wiki yet, because Chuck hasn't told her story, hasn't finallized a timeline that meshes with the canon one Karbo has in mind, and we don't know what impact she will have on the world as a whole.

I hate to brake it to you Cliff. But I am not doin my story/drawing to make you happy or anyone else for that matter. The only cannon its goin to mesh with is the cannon from my dream.
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:05 pm

Twinkie Theory... that would explain alot with these predators.

Although I see Karbo doesn't like the idea?
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:10 pm

Pendragon, I don't see disagreement there. Karbo just said he isn't going to explicitly state it on the wiki.

Speaking of that though, there's a part in the wiki on the Nagas page that states: A typical giant naga eats about 5 humans a day to stay healthy, and many more in order to feel satiated.
That particular line is years old. I recall that there was a similar line about predators in general on the front page that was removed with the introduction of Twinkie theory, I have assumed that the sentence on the Naga's page had just been overlooked.


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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:12 pm

Pendragon wrote:
Twinkie Theory... that would explain alot with these predators.

Although I see Karbo doesn't like the idea?

um no it's not a question of not linking the idea. I think it do makes sense that a predator's diet is varied and not comprised only of humans/nekos or whatever.
I just don't want to make it a sort of engraved-in-iron rule. A lot of that depend on the individual itself.

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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:18 pm

[quote="Claire"]
rcs619 wrote:
Quote :
Because Markie has a very minor effect on the setting.

Clare is the daughter of a famous historical dridder, queen of the dridder empire, linked to numerous historic events and canon characters. Chuck still needs to get with everyone, and figure out a timeline that meshes with Karbo's and keeps everyone happy. That's the lot he drew by making a character so entrenched in so many other things. She isn't in the wiki yet, because Chuck hasn't told her story, hasn't finallized a timeline that meshes with the canon one Karbo has in mind, and we don't know what impact she will have on the world as a whole.

I hate to brake it to you Cliff. But I am not doin my story/drawing to make you happy or anyone else for that matter. The only cannon its goin to mesh with is the cannon from my dream.

Greek, what the devil's gotten into you? All he's said is that she's not in the wiki for X reason. He's not said you shouldn't do it nor told you to stop, at least here. So why do you have to say that right now and right here? By now, we all should know better than to be this confrontational.

This wasn't an argument and I don't care to let it become one. For your sake, Greek, I hope neither do you.

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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:23 pm

I'm sorry for quoting myself, but I think a part of my previous (and way too long ^^) post has been overlooked. Because there already ARE "engraved in iron-rules" in the wiki - and these are the ones I do not like.

I may repeat myself by going to the angels again but they're the only ones I'm familiar with enough to be able to be sure about what I'm saying. But there you definately have at least 3 such obligatory rules.

Angels have to apology
Angels Stomachs are as deadly as others
Purifier Angels do have a rapier with shrinking ability.

There are, other than abilities and traits, (healing magic or light magic may vary, as well as the size or the appearance, for example) no "if"s and "or"s. They just have it. Full stop.


It's like Karbo says, a lot should depend on the Individual: That's why I said few basic rules, many characters as examples of their variety.

Quote :
[...] there should be less rules for creating new stuff and more Individuals that represent the possibilities that can be done - even by following all the rules. Also, Canon should present a whole bunch of possibilities or backdoors, so people may variate. Nagas are a good example, the only thing that's common to them is their tail. ^^ So if I want to make a Naga, I have way more freedom than making an angel which is kind of predefined by 50% and thus easy to violate the canon.
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:25 pm

Yeah, I agree with Amaroq here, those are restrictive.
I've thought it odd that those "rules" exist, considering Karbo's dislike of absolute rules. What's even more odd is that as nobody else is credited for that section, I must assume that Karbo wrote it.
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:38 pm

Stabs wrote:
Greek, what the devil's gotten into you? All he's said is that she's not in the wiki for X reason. He's not said you shouldn't do it nor told you to stop, at least here. So why do you have to say that right now and right here? By now, we all should know better than to be this confrontational.

This wasn't an argument and I don't care to let it become one. For your sake, Greek, I hope neither do you.

Yea why does he have to get my character involved in this conversation and say why shes not cannon. That was NOT needed at all and seemed confrontational. You personally moved the conversation from my character thread and made a new one to avoid my thread turnin into a massive debate.... so why is he getin my character involved again?
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:43 pm

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Yeah, I agree with Amaroq here, those are restrictive.
I've thought it odd that those "rules" exist, considering Karbo's dislike of absolute rules. What's even more odd is that as nobody else is credited for that section, I must assume that Karbo wrote it.

Yeah, that is odd.

It could be a very, very old entry.

There are quite a few entries around the wiki, like the "nagas have to eat 5 humans a day" one AJ mentioned earlier, that are years old, and from an earlier, less developed time in Felarya's history.

Those rules may just need to be re-worded, or taken out.
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:45 pm

@ claire

I was the one who brought up your character. I initially postet my comment in YOUR thread so it was all fine. I then stucked to your char. here since she was the best example: really well worked out, other than some officials. I didn't mean to offend or hurt anyone. I'm sorry. Please message me if you want me to edit that and take another character as an example.
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:02 pm

Felarya leaves lots of room for creativity.

Canon is very important, because any fantasy world's canon is what defines it and allows it to exist as a single fantasy world. Every good fantasy world, regardless of how many people worked on it, has a defined canon, to varying degrees.

If you write a story that blatantly walks over canon... well then... you're not really in Felarya anymore. Not the one we know. So why use Felarya as a setting then, if it doesn't work for you?

But Felarya is such an open setting, what with the multi-dimensional plane and allowing for very advanced sci-fi and magic. As well, the community can always help. Canon mostly becomes important when you are interacting or using something that already exists. This helps build continuity.
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:19 pm

Canon? So what's canon for? It gives you a basis if you want to set your stories in Felarya. When I wrote my first story, I had to document myself before I could do so. The wiki worked wonders for me in this.

I have this thought and it's that you should respect the original universe for a fanfic or similar. After all, if you really like that setting, you should care for it and its goodness and wellness. Sure, you can still write an elseworlds/what-if story, so there's nothing wrong with it, but take in account that it can't be integrated in the lore/canon of the original universe in any way - or it can, depends on the circumstances, I presume. Still, people like to do things in that way, so we can't stop them...

... But canon is there for people who don't want to use the what-if formula, for those who want to integrate their stories into the 'official' setting. And despite Felarya having some stiff rules when it comes to its canon, in general the setting is pretty flexible. I only had a problem with the setting once and it was resolved thanks to good feedback - something I appreciate -, for that I'm of those who respect what's established but can bend things in their way while not violating the original setting.

And about the whole 'wikification' issue... We all would be so glad to see our characters or ideas in general there, but what if they aren't? Sure, they won't be canon in the sense of "it has Karbo's seal of approval to be in the wiki", but do you really care if it's in the wiki? If you really care for the setting and you developed your ideas being respectful with it, being in the wiki is secondary.

So look at me, nothing I created - except for a little proverb - is in the wiki. There'll be tons of reasons why what I've created isn't there - not even fan-fav Kyria... wait... did I really say "fan-fav"? xD - and I'm not making a big deal. Mainly because I just enjoy it. I know I'm currently in one of my usual hiatus, but ideas keep coming to my mind and I store them so in the future will be fleshed out as either flora, fauna, locations, characters or just stories. Always with the words fun and respect - damn, I'm repeating myself with all these "respect this, respect that" - in my mind when it comes to Felarya. That's all.
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PostSubject: Re: The utility of canon   Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:01 pm

The way I see it, the "canon", emphasis on the quotes, are really more akin to a mold. It really act more like boundaries and shaping the core concept of Felarya. It's best to stay within that, as it helps organize things. But at the same time, it doesn't really restrict anything. For example, you could put X and Y ingredients in that mold, or you could put A and B ingredients. It all really depends if it fits into that mold. The thing with "canon" isn't to make something identical to the mold, but something that can fit in it. Like others said, you can put a virtually endless combination of ingredients in that mold, but it most stay within its boundaries. What some people should consider is not to obssess about the mold itself, but ponder on what could fit well into that mold.
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