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 Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^

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aethernavale
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^   Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 05, 2011 4:27 am

French snack wrote:
Unless I'm somewhat mistaken, it's generally accepted that both Heaven and Hell are composed of a multitude of "sub-realms" (for lack of a better term), each displaying what people of a particular faith (or more generally set of beliefs) would expect to find. Thus you do end up exactly where you'd expected. It also means that people experience Heaven and Hell in very different ways. And it helps clarify how you end up there. It depends on you doing what you believe to be right within the rules of your own religion or moral code.


This is what I was specifically referring to. Also, I'm not really sure how me doing what I am has anything to do with afterlife.


There isn't anything in the wiki that specifically points out that each of these 'layers' or 'realms' of Heaven and Hell are split up such that the separation is as me or FS described, or others mentioned at. There is no one 'god' of either complete union, but each realm has a/( ) 'leader/(s)'.


Some of the confusion for me comes from the overall naming hierarchy, but I suppose that is just convention. Remember before Christianity got ahold of the Poetic/Prose Edda Hel (one l) was originally a person, not a place. The place, Helheim, simply meant 'House of Hel'. One of Loki's children, Hel was an outcast and the one Odin chose to rule over the afterlife domain. "Go to Hel" simply meant to die, it didn't really have any connotation as to whether you were a good or bad person, just that you should die.


Personally I think this is one of those arenas where you could describe it as Heaven or Hell as an aside/descriptor, but the collection of planes forming the two sides of the afterlife - indeed, even the individual planes themselves - should have separate names. These can then be linked to the major religions of Felarya, and if you desired you could make a 'Purgatory' such as FS described (or something else, just an example) where those who do not fall into a qualifying candidacy go. Seeing as the psychopomps are the ones responsible for 'ferrying' souls, I also think you might see some interesting dialogues go down there - let us say for example you had a person who died and fit into the 'Heaven' example on some merits of their existence for their chosen afterlife affiliation, but fit also with the 'Hell' example of the same or another said afterlife affiliation.

Such things might even be the cause of some of the wars between Heaven/Hell - where one region believes another region is unjustly or indiscriminately robbing them of souls they have 'rightful' claim to.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^   Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 05, 2011 4:51 am

aethernavale wrote:
Seeing as the psychopomps are the ones responsible for 'ferrying' souls, I also think you might see some interesting dialogues go down there - let us say for example you had a person who died and fit into the 'Heaven' example on some merits of their existence for their chosen afterlife affiliation, but fit also with the 'Hell' example of the same or another said afterlife affiliation.

Such things might even be the cause of some of the wars between Heaven/Hell - where one region believes another region is unjustly or indiscriminately robbing them of souls they have 'rightful' claim to.

I would think that, in case of incompatible moral doctrines, what matters fundamentally is what the individual in question believed. You don't end up in an afterlife which doesn't correspond to your own religious or moral code. When there's a borderline case within the individual's affiliation, then indeed I imagine there may be squabbles between Heaven and Hell. Psychopomps may watch out for these particular cases, and rush to nab them as soon as they die, before the other side can get its hands on them.

Here's the scene in one of my stories where a psychopomp appears to a non-believer, and explains some of the mechanics to her. (Be warned that this constitutes quite a major spoiler for anyone who hasn't read (or finished reading) "Lost in Felarya", and who may intend to do so.)

Spoiler:

The only other time I've had a psychopomp in one of my stories was the following, but that was... a bit different:

http://frenchsnack.deviantart.com/art/Story-42-144227436
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Pendragon
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^   Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 05, 2011 5:12 am

As long as there isn't talk of souls every 5 seconds I don't mind fleshing out heaven and hell.

It just creeps me out.
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Shady Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^   Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 05, 2011 6:42 am

I personally don't the idea of the powers that be causes someone to forget he or she add died and make her see an eternal vision of the perfect life. If you think about it, that's pretty grim since all its loved ones are a total lie there. Maybe there could be some realm that conform to the atheist's moral code, or at least one that doesn't believe in any specific religion, but where I guess honorable souls are ferried. Although, given the term "ferrying", I would like that the river between the two planes be integrated.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^   Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 05, 2011 6:51 am

Sean, that is what I assumed would happen. As I said, that realm would be the closest thing to an anarchist realm in heaven since it would be a realm with no real deity; because atheists don't believe in any.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^   Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 05, 2011 6:56 am

Sean Okotami wrote:
I personally don't the idea of the powers that be causes someone to forget he or she add died and make her see an eternal vision of the perfect life. If you think about it, that's pretty grim since all its loved ones are a total lie there.

Depends how you see it. From the point of view of the individual in question (which I would say is the only one that really matters), it's not grim at all, since they view it all as real.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^   Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 05, 2011 7:07 am

For the individual, yes. But what if one of its friend was religious? What would happen to that friend? The atheist one is stuck floating in limbo, while the other one is in her religion's realm and cannot see the person she cared for ever again. If Heaven would even go make fake images of the atheist so the religious one isn't sad, taking this logic, then the realm of Heaven is founded on lies and deceits. This really doesn't make it a diametric opposite to Hell and gives it a HUGE shade of gray.
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TheLightLost
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^   Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 05, 2011 7:36 am

I don't mind fleshing the afterlife out just as long as anything that goes into the wiki is clearly stated as being only a theory.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^   Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 05, 2011 7:38 am

Sean Okotami wrote:
For the individual, yes. But what if one of its friend was religious? What would happen to that friend? The atheist one is stuck floating in limbo, while the other one is in her religion's realm and cannot see the person she cared for ever again.

That's arguably the biggest problem with the "multiple sub-realms" theory.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^   Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 05, 2011 7:48 am

Not really. It probably would allow the possibility to travel from one realm to another, or in fact, live together should they desire. This is especially apparent considering communities, like Negav, which are the home of hundreds of religions, and is very likely that a follower of Religion A can be married with a follower of Religion B and live a very happy life together. But we're going on a really weird tangent here, so I suggest we get back on-track.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^   Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 05, 2011 2:42 pm

I believe sean is right, since seeing your loved ones generates happiness, angels would allow people to see their friends from other realms because it would add more positive energy to both realms.
gt500x wrote:
I don't mind fleshing the afterlife out just as long as anything that goes into the wiki is clearly stated as being only a theory.
Well it doesn't have to be.
As you all know now, heaven is made of multiple realms, each one almost like it's own self contained heaven. The reason it is like this was so writers could write heaven however they wanted and it would still be true because those different descriptions of heaven would be different realms.
That is why I am against trying to define heaven as a whole except for the ground rules that are currently in the wiki. What's currently in the wiki allows for countless realms; writers can have as many different realms as they want. Trying to define heaven as a whole takes away a lot of that freedom.
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