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aethernavale
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:52 am

Sean Okotami wrote:
Actually, Nemesises won't have a problem passing through the Eye since they're not giant.

See, that's not a wise idea, given how fairy magic 'works'. Define 'giant'. Are we talking about dimensional plane x+yz or y+xz or z+xy or... yeah. What is the actual size of importance for a being that can exist on a mental/astral plane? If the Eye only worked on the physical plane then fairies could just zip right through. Obviously, the Eye has more folds to its ability than 'physical' size.

Additionally, assuming a Nemesis could take out a force as detailed in the wiki, then they definitely fall into the latter corollary of the Eye.


Jaette_Troll wrote:
I think that the more specific stuff that the Eye would miss would get detected at the gates. I'm sure they have at least some magical detection and security. Can't be too careful on a dimensional nexus and deathworld....

Yeah, I started talking about my theories on that prior to Sean making his thread.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:58 am

Actually, the wiki states the identify spells and detectors. Also, Nemesises can't size-shift like fairies. Their size hasn't been specified, other than being tall. What is your point? Given that no one knows how the dream tracking thing work, how can you mount a defense against it?
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:32 pm

Sean Okotami wrote:
Actually, the wiki states the identify spells and detectors. Also, Nemesises can't size-shift like fairies. Their size hasn't been specified, other than being tall. What is your point? Given that no one knows how the dream tracking thing work, how can you mount a defense against it?


That you would point out the point of my previous posts without recognizing it is impressive.

This isn't about whether the Nemesises could or could not size shift. The point of the statement was to show you how your blanket statement was in complete derision of what you were pointing out previously, and to which I had already commented on. I'd almost say you got whooshed even though that wasn't the intent of my previous post.

Nemesises are dangerous creatures that can support a voracious appetite which according to the wiki could potentially include an entire army. Now, I know that this is probably exaggerated information, so let us reduce it to say one Nemesis could take out a company instead. The actual physical size of a being cannot be the sole limitation of the size encapsulation of the Eye - especially given the dynamic nature of Felarya. Voraciousness is included in the wiki as being one of the points for the field's effects - so if Nemesises are in Negav, they then must have some immunity to the field.

Even if you defined the size restriction of the Isolon Eye to solely be limited to physical size, Nemesises should be forbidden from entering the zone of influence simply because the appetites of an individual could support. That is the second corollary to the Isolon Eye - appetite. Yet, I personally think that a Nemesis could be in Negav - especially given their general natures.



Now, there is nothing canon anywhere within the wiki that specifically details what can or can't go into or out of Negav, or what one might expect to see. The Nemesis thing was something I brought up merely for an example. What we do know is that a less voracious and smaller pantaur can get within the 'vicinity' of Negav whereas a large and/or voracious predator cannot - yet they are still affected by the field. So what constitutes 'smaller'? Also, we have to go back to the initial dilemma - the field protects most of the time. So the point was defining what 'most of the time' means, and how it applies.

My character, Liari, is a half fairy, half succubus hybrid. Seeing as most types of fairies cannot breach the Eye, that means that Liari has two dockets against her already from entering. I sincerely doubt the Eye, and if so it than the protective wards, would allow any sized fairy or succubi to enter Negav. The risk is too high. So, Liari's counterpoints then would be the fact that she cannot change her own size, that she is not giant, and that she doesn't eat humans very often. Thereby, going by strict definition, the Eye's field would not bother Liari. However, the wards of Negav should bother her, because she is both a fairy and a succubi. Yet they do not.

The original sidepoint for this was the question of whether or not a hybrid could get into Negav, and why or why not. We know the Motamo Docks supports a hybrid population, but by law many of these hybrids are not permitted to enter the city proper. Additionally, the wiki calls out that they pass through the anti-predatory field of the Eye, which implies that there is a possibility that even with their diminutive sizes they could still be affected by it, especially I imagine due to being so close to the core of the effect. Voraciousness applies here; given their distance to the eye despite their smaller sizes they could be affected.

Personally, I see the wards as being the specific plugs in the general coverage of the Eye. The Eye protects the city both against giants as well as voracious predators. Most of the time, those are mutually inclusive - but not necessarily. So, in the case of them being exclusive, where the former is discarded and the latter becomes the import, we must examine characters/species that exempt it. Dusk Nymphs are specifically called out; but I imagine there probably are more.

Since Dusk Nymphs are a form of fairy, we'll just go ahead and say that it's their physical 'ideal' size that would prohibit them from entering (assuming no immunity), disregarding their appetite completely. However, this is a false preamble as the actual mechanic of fairy size isn't defined - we only have Mezzus' and other researchers theories - they could just as very well actually be small in their 'ideal' frame of reference as large. Perhaps it varies on the individual.

Regardless, back to the point.

If we conclude that something can bypass the Eye's protective field, for whatever reason, then we must acknowledge that Negav will have other defenses. Obviously. Thus we have the Vish weaponry and sensors - but as noted we also have the identification and protection wards. These then become our driving focus to discuss.

The protection wards would be the serving grace for preventing entry by other creatures not affected by the Eye's field then. However, these would have to be governed by a rule of absolutes - it isn't possible to design a specific ward for a general purpose (doing so would be rather close to godmoding I'd say). If you don't understand the mechanic of something, engineered or magical, you can't defend against it (as you pointed out...). Thus, the protective wards are the specific point defenses. Those placing the ward cannot ward against something they know not.

Then our defense falls upon Negavian force encounters and the identification wards/sensor nets.

I would imagine the basic focus of the identification wards is to just pinpoint sources of intense power or anomalies with creatures passing by them. There needs to be a lower threshold though - you don't want the Isolon Fist responding every time some human with a need to stay hidden is using some less-than-well-received magical portent to hide his/her identity. Likewise, the extent of the ability of the Vish forces to register magical means is also not known.

However, you do want the threshold low enough that you can nab as much of the riffraff you don't want getting through as possible. In Liari's case, as long as she 'acts human' she should be fine then - her physical makeup is odd/rare enough that there probably aren't specific wards against it. If we go with the 'she isn't large enough/voracious enough' to trigger the Eye's field effects, then Liari can exist in Negav without problem. However, she is an adventurer - she constantly goes past the guards and the wards. In that case, it must be called out then that the identification wards aren't enough to recognize her for what she actually is.

Back to the original sidepoint, this was about fairy-human relation. We can surmise if such combinations are possible through breeding that they would be 'more common', and thus more data available about them. In that scenario, it would be possible for the magiocrats to make wards that protect against their entry - and as noted already, given that they're half fairy, they probably would be lumped in with the other smaller hybrids and wouldn't be welcome in Negav so we could conceive this notion to have some plausibility.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:34 pm

Too much text, didn't bother reading it. Point is, there's so little info about Nemesises that you can't certify that they are incapable of entering. The appetite thing is something I dislike entirely. By the logic of it, a perfectly normal human with a huge appetite shouldn't be able to enter.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:43 pm

Sean Okotami wrote:
Too much text, didn't bother reading it. Point is, there's so little info about Nemesises that you can't certify that they are incapable of entering.



Sorry Nunally. *sigh* And people wonder why we have communication problems. All you see is one little point that you feel the absolute need to drive in when I'm not even talking about that and I called it out within the first three sentences. I used it as an breeze-by example only of what I considered to have the most setup point for contention with regards to the second Eye field corollary as opposed to the first, which seems to be all you want to acknowledge.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:47 pm

The reason I didn't bother reading is because you put so much text that you could summarize in two or three short paragraphs. Trying to understand what your point is is an acheivement given that you clutter it with so many words, when you could go straight to the point. Now, I ask you, what is your point about a Nemesis in a single sentence?

Here are what I think: The whole "appetite" corollary is absolutely ridiculous and such an absurdly situational corollary that it's worthless. A dridder from the motamo docks can enter the eye's field, and in fact, LIVE in the eye's field, when they are capable of eating an entire human being. Same as nagas.

If your point is about Nemesises being able to project themselves in a person's dream where they appear giant, thus would be the same as being a physical giant, then the problem is that there is simply not enough information about this ability in the wiki. It doesn't specify if it's an actual astral projection. If it was the case, then the actual Nemesis would be immobile, and once the mark wakes up, she wouldn't be able to track it down. If it is an effect of the dream tracking, then the Isolon Eye should have no effect since it is more akin to a spell.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:36 pm

Sean Okotami wrote:
The reason I didn't bother reading is because you put so much text that you could summarize in two or three short paragraphs. Trying to understand what your point is is an acheivement given that you clutter it with so many words, when you could go straight to the point. Now, I ask you, what is your point about a Nemesis in a single sentence?
It's still insulting to the writer. I didn't find what he wrote to be too long. Sean, they couldn;'t be summarized, it would leave out a lot of information and cause people to ask more questions later. This is evident because you end up asking those questions. Why? Because you don't read things properly.

Sean Okotami wrote:
Here are what I think: The whole "appetite" corollary is absolutely ridiculous and such an absurdly situational corollary that it's worthless. A dridder from the motamo docks can enter the eye's field, and in fact, LIVE in the eye's field, when they are capable of eating an entire human being. Same as nagas.
And? In that case it depends on the individual. The are capable of it, but if they are not "voracious" (ie; not inclined to eat humans) then the eye won't effect them.
In any case, since the eye also goes by size, I'd say it wouldn't effect something that small that wasn't in the "black list" (that is, things that the eye effects no matter what size they are).
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:45 pm

say is it a good idea to ask Felarya writers if it's okay to use their characters in a Felarya story or in an OC bio Question
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:50 pm

Solomon, it's not just a "good idea." You are required to ask people before you use their characters.
(The only exception is zoekin, who made a public statement that it's ok for people to use his characters without asking.)
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:07 pm

Karbo wrote:
If they don't have wings, then it's pretty likely they don't have much fairy powers as well as it's *usually* stored there.
The fact an hybrid would have no wings is mostly a general tendencies, not an absolute rule, though.

As for a wingless hybrid, well as long as they don't enjoy humans as prey, I don't think they would have any problem to enter Negav. And they would pretty hard to detect as well ^^

Alrighty, that works then. I think your idea for human/fairy crossbreeds is fair enough though, and makes sense.

I know there aren't going to be exact rules, but it seems like they would fall into two categories most of the time.
- Wingless crossbreeds: These look nearly human (maybe their ears could be slightly pointed? Or some other small trait that hints that they are not 100% human). They lack fairy size-shifting magic, but because of their Fairy parent, they are extremely skilled mages, who learn quicker and are generally more powerful than the average human mage.

- Winged crossbreeds: These take more after their fairy parent. They actually have wings, and may, or may not have Fairy size-magic.

Does this seem about right?

Also, since this has been opened, what is your stance on a human breeding with a Neko or an Inu?

Non-mammalian species (Nagas, Mermaids, Dridders), except for Harpies, are still impossible for humans to breed with, right? I just want to be sure we're all on the same page ^^

Quote :
Wouldn't the identification spells around the walls, well, identify them as fairy hybrids?

I doubt it. Honestly, as long as its wingless, and has no size-magic, there's no harm in them being able to get into Negav. They still shouldn't go around telling people about their parents though, that would probably be pretty unhealthy.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:17 pm

I've got a bit less fantastical of a question. Just a thought that popped into my head and struck me as interesting, plus I think it is a sort-of-important social quandary that I don't think has been acknowledged yet:

What would the overall stance on homosexuality be in Negev? I understand that different groups would have different ideas on this, but would it be accepted by the government, so to speak, of Negev? Would two people of such a persuasion have to hide their relationship, or could they be open about it without much fear of prejudice?
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:41 pm

zersergathant wrote:
I've got a bit less fantastical of a question. Just a thought that popped into my head and struck me as interesting, plus I think it is a sort-of-important social quandary that I don't think has been acknowledged yet:

What would the overall stance on homosexuality be in Negev? I understand that different groups would have different ideas on this, but would it be accepted by the government, so to speak, of Negev? Would two people of such a persuasion have to hide their relationship, or could they be open about it without much fear of prejudice?

Hmmm, that is actually an interesting question.

Some of the main reasons it is so taboo here in the US (since that is the only country I have experience with), is because people either think its wierd/gross, or take very hardline religious views on the matter (homoexuality is a sin, etc, etc).

When you look at Negav, a lot of that is not relavent anymore. They live in a world of giant, man-eating animal-people, magic, alchemy and so on. Their view of what is "wierd" and outside the norm is going to be very different. Likewise, I don't think organized religion is very present there. There are groups like the Olthamites (spelling?), but there aren't massive super-religions that control huge chunks of the population. People would belong to one of the likely many religions that have popped up in Negav, or have no religion at all.

Let's see...within Negav, you have two main groups.
- Natives: These people actually live permanently in Negav. A lot have been in Felarya for many years, if not their whole lives. One of the big principles of Negav is of humans united against a world that could kill them all. I just don't think they'd care who sleeps with who (Individuals will always vary, of course). I think the topic of inter-species relations would be a more relavent and potentially controversial subject, given that part of the population either does not like, or does not trust demi-humans.

- Offworlders: These would be a total mixed-bag. You have adventurers, entrepeneurs, businessmen and mercenaries from a dozen different worlds. Their religious, political, and moral views are going to be all over the place, and really depend on the person, and what kind of civilization they are originally from.

Of course, these are just my thoughts. I can't really give you any official, canon answers, since there really aren't any for this topic yet.

Definately an interesting question though. Just goes to show that there is always something new and interesting to potentially discuss in the setting.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:48 pm

aethernavale wrote:

Then our defense falls upon Negavian force encounters and the identification wards/sensor nets.

I would imagine the basic focus of the identification wards is to just pinpoint sources of intense power or anomalies with creatures passing by them. There needs to be a lower threshold though - you don't want the Isolon Fist responding every time some human with a need to stay hidden is using some less-than-well-received magical portent to hide his/her identity. Likewise, the extent of the ability of the Vish forces to register magical means is also not known.

That's a niche the ISD would fill specifically.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:22 am

rcs619 wrote:
- Wingless crossbreeds: These look nearly human (maybe their ears could be slightly pointed? Or some other small trait that hints that they are not 100% human). They lack fairy size-shifting magic, but because of their Fairy parent, they are extremely skilled mages, who learn quicker and are generally more powerful than the average human mage.

- Winged crossbreeds: These take more after their fairy parent. They actually have wings, and may, or may not have Fairy size-magic.

Wait wait wait
Concerning the crossbreed between fairies and humans, there is a little problem.
If the mother is the fairy ... wich size is going to be the child? Since it is said that they probably won't have size-shifting magic, if the fairy is in a size other than human, the child will be too, making a permanent giant or tiny. (and this works for full fairies too, for the period the child isn't be able to use shifting magic)
---
Now, another question that might be important too (i'm not sure if it has been stated already, I've the feeling that yes, but in the doubt I will ask anyways), are those crossbred sterils?
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:04 am

Quote :
Wait wait wait
Concerning the crossbreed between fairies and humans, there is a little problem.
If the mother is the fairy ... wich size is going to be the child? Since it is said that they probably won't have size-shifting magic, if the fairy is in a size other than human, the child will be too, making a permanent giant or tiny. (and this works for full fairies too, for the period the child isn't be able to use shifting magic)

That is something the parents will have to decide. Since the other parent is human, I imagine the Fairy will probably have the child at human-size. That way, the human parent can actually be part of raising the kid. Keep in mind, when the Fairy changes sizes, so does anything inside of her. If the kid's mother is a fairy, she can choose the size of the child. If the child's father is a fairy, then the kid has no choice but to be human-sized since its mother is human.

Just depends on the parents and the situation.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:56 am

I was thinking of something like that too, being it a decission of the parents. Still, the concept could turn into something interesting... I'm only hoping the Felaryan fandom doesn't end overpopulated by human-fairy hybrids. xD
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:49 am

Well then they better be really careful if they want to have several childrens, cause I can see really weird brother relationships coming... xD
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:21 pm

Why do kensha beasts (giant wolves I suppose) happen to have 6 legs? it doesn't make sense to me. where is the advantage? All these legs would get in the way while running or something like that.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:33 pm

I think it's esthetic to enforce they're different from Earth wolves.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:35 pm

Amaroq wrote:
Why do kensha beasts (giant wolves I suppose) happen to have 6 legs? it doesn't make sense to me. where is the advantage? All these legs would get in the way while running or something like that.

This is a common misconception.

They aren't giant wolves. I believe randomdude described them as more "jackal-like" in his stories. They're giant, canine-like creatures, and when people think giant canines, they tend to simplify it down to "giant wolves".

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/045/e/e/kensha_beast_sketch_by_tangofox-d38n58f.png

This is probably the best drawing of a Kensha we have so far.

The main advantage is that the legs support a Kensha's primary weapon, the venom that is secreted from its claws. That venom is the reason they're so dangerous, even to the giant hybrids. Kensha beasts are only 40ft tall at the shoulder. Against bigger creatures, they likely use hit and run attacks...darting in to get in a few claw strikes, and them moving out of range again. The amount of venom in the target increases with each attack, and eventually it goes down.

More legs = more claws = more venom delivered per attack

Also, it isn't like they would need to be able to run super fast. They live in a forest. No predator can reach full speed because of the trees, bushes, fallen trees, and other rough terrain.They'd be more than fast enough to outrun a giant hybrid, or whatever else they're hunting. Besides, they're pack hunters. Herding the prey to the other pack members and surrounding it is far more important than being able to chase something down with pure speed. A few claw swipes, and the prey item is going to be weakened and sluggish from the venom as well.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:54 pm

rcs619 wrote:

This is a common misconception.

They aren't giant wolves. I believe randomdude described them as more "jackal-like" in his stories. They're giant, canine-like creatures, and when people think giant canines, they tend to simplify it down to "giant wolves"
It's not a misconception but clearly stated in their description they as six-legged wolves as you can see here
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:16 pm

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
rcs619 wrote:

This is a common misconception.

They aren't giant wolves. I believe randomdude described them as more "jackal-like" in his stories. They're giant, canine-like creatures, and when people think giant canines, they tend to simplify it down to "giant wolves"
It's not a misconception but clearly stated in their description they as six-legged wolves as you can see here

I think that is more because the entry is years old.

Calling them "giant canines" would be more accurate. They are only similar to wolves because they are dogs, and live in packs (which many dogs do). Their appearance, venom and hunting tactics aren't really that wolf-like.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:34 pm

rcs619 wrote:


I think that is more because the entry is years old.

Calling them "giant canines" would be more accurate. They are only similar to wolves because they are dogs, and live in packs (which many dogs do). Their appearance, venom and hunting tactics aren't really that wolf-like.
You know the Egyptian jackal was thought to be subspecie of the golden jackal until lately( February of this year) it has been proven it belongs to the grey wolf specie. It's the only African wolf. The kensha beast can be a wolf with jackal-like behaviour.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:54 pm

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
rcs619 wrote:


I think that is more because the entry is years old.

Calling them "giant canines" would be more accurate. They are only similar to wolves because they are dogs, and live in packs (which many dogs do). Their appearance, venom and hunting tactics aren't really that wolf-like.
You know the Egyptian jackal was thought to be subspecie of the golden jackal until lately( February of this year) it has been proven it belongs to the grey wolf specie. It's the only African wolf. The kensha beast can be a wolf with jackal-like behaviour.

There is the Ethiopian Wolf, but that isn't relavent to the discussion.

I imagine a lot of this is from just not seeing Kenshas in action a lot. There's probably quite a few ways to make them something other than "just giant wolves". In the end though, its Randomdude's idea, so he'd have to be the one to do it.
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PostSubject: Re: General Q and A   Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:22 pm

Let's just agree with "It looks like a canine". ;-P
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