Pelnepi Security

From the wiki:

"Pelnepi is under the protection of the human authorities and Keepers of Fortune, who do make some effort to keep it safe from hungry nekos and human slavers."


It doesn't really go into detail though. What kind of protection do they give? 24 hour guard duty? Surveillance? Are nekos not allowed anywhere near the town, or can they come in if they say they have legitimate business?

I just want to know how they keep these fine citizens safe. Are there ever any "incidents"?

what if the guards slapped on a magical rune (that acts as a 'transmitter') and would activate if the neko or human or whomever decided to eat them? the guards could have a "receiver" and would use it to track the person down.

The rune might only activate for eating tinies though. Also, I imagine there would be many ways to out smart this device, as nothing that exists is fool proof. (to say it is, is only arrogance after all)

That's my idea.

I think all they can do is assign guards to keep watch over their little section of town and punish anyone threatening a Pelnepi to the full extent of the law.

Well yeah, obviously there's going to be a lot of victims.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

Well yeah, obviously there's going to be a lot of victims.

That would depend on the structure of the city as well. I really doubt a Neko could just go there and snatch a tomthumb up off the street.

Assuming the tinies are considered Negavian citizans, that could lead to a murder charge.

Also, keep in mind, Negavian Nekos are less likely to do that. This isn't Nekomura or the jungle. These are Negavian Nekos. Most of them have tried to make themselves look, and behave as human as possible in order to avoid as much prejudice as possible. They've had to learn to reign in their instincts so that they can fit in around humans.

There could even be other rules in place. Maybe, if tinies start getting eaten in too many numbers, Nekos will lose their rights to live in the city, and be treated under the same rules as the demi-humans of the Motamo Docks? The privilage of living in Negav only goes to those who agree and follow its principles, and all that.

Assuming the Eye is based around voraciousness. Who's to say a Neko that WOULD eat a tiny could even live in the city? Maybe they have to live in the Commons or the Docks because their voraciousness causes the Eye's field to have a small effect on them (enough to where they can't go inside the city).

Lot's of ways to go with it, really.

I don't know. I still think there'd be a good population of nekos in Negav that eat tinies. Not all nekos are going to happily go along with what humans think is okay. Eating tinies would be a crime, but its not like crime doesn't exist.

Not saying all nekos would, but for some it would make sense. They would see the humans protecting tinies as just the humans screwing nekos over again, not the humans protecting citizens.

Of course, this wouldn't be all nekos. But enough that many humans still stereotype nekos as savages. And the regular police would try to crack down on it.

It's a complex issue is all. Not a common neko habit, but common among some, probably more among poorer nekos I'd guess. They want extra food and don't really care what the Magiocrats want anyways.

So... it's sort of like drugs? But with murderous vore?

Jætte_Troll wrote:

I don't know. I still think there'd be a good population of nekos in Negav that eat tinies. Not all nekos are going to happily go along with what humans think is okay. Eating tinies would be a crime, but its not like crime doesn't exist.

Not saying all nekos would, but for some it would make sense. They would see the humans protecting tinies as just the humans screwing nekos over again, not the humans protecting citizens.

Of course, this wouldn't be all nekos. But enough that many humans still stereotype nekos as savages. And the regular police would try to crack down on it.

It's a complex issue is all. Not a common neko habit, but common among some, probably more among poorer nekos I'd guess. They want extra food and don't really care what the Magiocrats want anyways.

So... it's sort of like drugs? But with murderous vore?

Do not forget the law of twinkie theory. It applies to Nekos as much as Nagas.

Tinies would be a snack, little more. Hardly even filling.

I really doubt a Neko is going to go through all the trouble, and risk of trying to eat a tiny, when they could just steal a loaf of bread from a street vendor or something. Or pickpocket/scam some fool offworlder for some cash.

Grave wrote:

From the wiki:

"Pelnepi is under the protection of the human authorities and Keepers of Fortune, who do make some effort to keep it safe from hungry nekos and human slavers."


It doesn't really go into detail though. What kind of protection do they give? 24 hour guard duty? Surveillance? Are nekos not allowed anywhere near the town, or can they come in if they say they have legitimate business?

I just want to know how they keep these fine citizens safe. Are there ever any "incidents"?

The city is basically guarded by the keepers of fortune and, because of their ability to call bad luck on someone, they are taken quite seriously.
I imagine there has been daring raids by nekos in the past but those would be really rare and generally end badly for the offender (s).
If a Neko had a very valid reason to enter it, they would have to be accompanied by keepers, after having filled a lot of paperwork, and having an authorization from Pelnepi itself.

Moreover the city is *technically* under the protection of the authorities, so an attack there would be a crime. Now in practice, the Negav police would be very slow to address the case so the Tomthumbs essentially rely more on the Keepers of fortune who make excellent guardians.

But this also means that Tomthumbs residing outside Pelnepi are not looked kindly upon by the authorities so a neko could eat a tiny outside of the temple area with relative impunity, provided they don't do it too openly.

So tinies outside of Pelnepi in Negav pretty much have no rights?


-.-


REVOLUCION!

Grave wrote:

So tinies outside of Pelnepi in Negav pretty much have no rights?


-.-


REVOLUCION!

The only tinies that would be living outside of Pelnepi would be...

- Tinies travelling with human/nekos/inu friends.

- Tinies entering Negav, but haven't arrived at Pelnepi yet.

- Tinies from Pelnepi, who for whatever reason want to strike out on their own outside the city. Honestly, there are probably several tiny communities scattered around Negav, hidden in walls, or underground. I think you'd see a lot of them in the high tier, since its mostly human and elves that live there.

Most of the tinies in Negav either live in Pelnepi, are on their way to Pelnepi, are travellers with another party, or intentionally live outside Pelnepi and know the risks.

Well you and the wiki are at odds....


"It's estimated that the vast majority of Negav's tinies live outside Pelnepi, but the area is not entirely uninhabited."

Grave wrote:

Well you and the wiki are at odds....


"It's estimated that the vast majority of Negav's tinies live outside Pelnepi, but the area is not entirely uninhabited."

Like I said. Lots of hidden settlements all over. Or even nomadic tinies.

Not to mention those travelling with larger people.

Slightly unrelated but slightly related...

I noticed in the wiki that it says that Pelnepi was built "Centuries" ago. However, before only 128 years ago, Negav was controlled by nekos. Did the nekos build Pelnepi then? Why would they do this?

As well, though not explicitly stated, the article hints at Pelnepi being constructed on order by the Magiocrats, talking about "relations with humans" and "the Board answers to the Magiocrats". Furthermore, it mentions human authorities keeping the town safe from "hungry nekos".

It would also have to have been built after the Sanctum of the Shining Star or during it. So if it was centuries old the Sanctum would have had to survived the great destruction.... unless both the Sanctum and Pelnepi were destroyed then rebuilt...

So... it might be helpful to specify when it was built. If it was built Centuries ago, it would predate human ownership of Negav and likely even Negav as a walled city. I'd estimate it at more a single century ago.

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Sightly unrelated but slightly related...

I noticed in the wiki that it says that Pelnepi was built "Centuries" ago. However, before only 128 years ago, Negav was controlled by nekos. Did the nekos build Pelnepi then? Why would they do this?

As well, though not explicitly stated, the article hints at Pelnepi being constructed on order by the Magiocrats, talking about "relations with humans" and "the Board answers to the Magiocrats". Furthermore, it mentions human authorities keeping the town safe from "hungry nekos".

It would also have to have been built after the Sanctum of the Shining Star or during it. So if it was centuries old the Sanctum would have had to survived the great destruction.... unless both the Sanctum and Pelnepi were destroyed then rebuilt...

So... it might be helpful to specify when it was built. If it was built Centuries ago, it would predate human ownership of Negav and likely even Negav as a walled city. I'd estimate it at more a single century ago.

Hmmm, its a valid point. Seems like its likely one of two things.

1: A chronological error, caused through recent fine-tuning of the Negavian timeline. That page was just forgotten about during the update.

or

2: Nekos may have run the city, but who's to say there wasn't a significant human powerblock? The fact that the Magiocrats actually knew how to run a city suggests that at least a couple of them had been in politics before. Maybe there were enough humans in Micolon's court, or appointed to high positions to have some political sway. It could have been a project proposed and started by humans.

Either...
- Micolon didn't really care about it.
- It was done in secret by the humans, with the temple used as cover.
- There was enough support from the humans (and maybe some more liberal Nekos) of Negav to compel Micolon to allow it to happen.

There's a lot of ways that this could be handled, really.

Personally, I kind of like the latter. It would help flesh out pre-Magiocrat Negav. Even with the Great Destruction, some parts of the city would survive with little, or less damage than the rest. It would also establish that the Magiocrats didn't just come out of nowhere. Some of the originals already served in the Micolon regime, and had some experience as beaurocrats and poltiicians. That would make the original Magiocrats an interesting group. Politicians from the Micolon government, as well as scholars, merchants, or even just powerful mages who joined the movement and wound up on the council.

rcs619 wrote:

Hmmm, its a valid point. Seems like its likely one of two things.

1: A chronological error, caused through recent fine-tuning of the Negavian timeline. That page was just forgotten about during the update.

or

2: Nekos may have run the city, but who's to say there wasn't a significant human powerblock? The fact that the Magiocrats actually knew how to run a city suggests that at least a couple of them had been in politics before. Maybe there were enough humans in Micolon's court, or appointed to high positions to have some political sway. It could have been a project proposed and started by humans.

It's the former. The idea has always been that Pelnepi has been there for a long time - long enough, certainly, for most of the tomthumbs living outside it to be descendants of those who ignored the ruling confining them there.

The problem with 2. is that it makes little sense for tomthumbs to decide to live outside Pelnepi in a neko-controlled city... Unless they had well-established means of getting by. But other than that, 2. seems okay.

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The problem with 2. is that it makes little sense for tomthumbs to decide to live outside Pelnepi in a neko-controlled city... Unless they had well-established means of getting by. But other than that, 2. seems okay.

Who's to say they did? Maybe that's the reason so many live outside the city nowadays. Maybe during the reign of the Nekos, Pelnepi felt more like a prison, with only the humans protecting them. Now that humans run the city, the tinies are striking out on their own more, eventhough they're technically supposed to be in Pelnepi.

Hrm. I suppose I just find it odd that a neko government, even one weak in actual power, would bother building something like Pelnepi. And even if the humans used their clout to make it happen - I don't think any tinies would live in it.

The wiki suggests that Pelnepi was created by humans to keep the tinies "under control". To me this sounds more like the human-centric Post Great Destruction Government doing some more social control rather than a Pre Post Great Destruction human group petitioning a neko king to do this.

Even though the Sanctum seems to be willingly helping the tinies, the entry still says it was a human mandated law.

I'd realistically date Pelnepi as only about 100 years old. To really stretch it could be maybe 150 or so - made at the tail-end of Micolons reign when the humans were wresting more control. I think that the human population and tiny population in Negav would be linked - when Negav was mostly neko no tiny would go there - it would be no better than the jungle. As the human population increased, the tinies would find neighbourhoods of non-tiny-eating people to live with.

However, all this is conjecture - we need to know more about human power development during Micolon's reign.... the age of the Sanctum of the Shining Star... how much of the city survived the Great Destruction... There are some general ideas floating around and some good ones but its up to Karbo what the end decision is.

Summing up a more simple pedantic note - the wiki says "Human Rulers" and yet dates the tiny city as "centuries" old. Humans have only ruled Negav for 128 years. So... maybe we need to rethink Pelnepi history, or maybe the entry just needs a little word tweaking.

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I'd realistically date Pelnepi as only about 100 years old. To really stretch it could be maybe 150 or so - made at the tail-end of Micolons reign when the humans were wresting more control. I think that the human population and tiny population in Negav would be linked - when Negav was mostly neko no tiny would go there - it would be no better than the jungle. As the human population increased, the tinies would find neighbourhoods of non-tiny-eating people to live with.

I was thinking it was built more near the tail-end of Micolon's reign. When humans either were, or close to the majority of the population. Maybe they got tired of seeing Nekos eating tinies...and used their combined clout as an ethnic group to demand the Neko population to stop (protests, threats of revolt and other violent actions, etc). Assuming the tiny trade was big in Negav when this happened, that would mean a LOT of tinies getting set free by this. Perhaps Pelnepi was originally constructed to house all the newly freed tinies within the city who were now off the menu. It would have also served as a gesture of good faith to the humans, in the hopes that all their disruptive protests and threats of revolution would go away.

Like I said. Lots of interesting ways to go about it.

rcs619 wrote:

I was thinking it was built more near the tail-end of Micolon's reign. When humans either were, or close to the majority of the population. Maybe they got tired of seeing Nekos eating tinies...and used their combined clout as an ethnic group to demand the Neko population to stop (protests, threats of revolt and other violent actions, etc). Assuming the tiny trade was big in Negav when this happened, that would mean a LOT of tinies getting set free by this. Perhaps Pelnepi was originally constructed to house all the newly freed tinies within the city who were now off the menu. It would have also served as a gesture of good faith to the humans, in the hopes that all their disruptive protests and threats of revolution would go away.

That seems feasible, and fairly interesting. Although it does rather alter the long-established canon original purpose of Pelnepi, which was an (unsuccessful) attempt to keep the tinies where the humans could see them. It's a little unfortunate that ideas about Negav's history were developed in a way that contradicted that... (Although it's difficult to keep track of all the information in the wiki, I suppose.)

When I first came up with Pelnepi, I was assuming that human dominance in Negav was not a recent event. (I think it hadn't yet been proposed as such; please correct me if I'm wrong and overlooked it.) In a place where people don't age, and where (apart from the more violent districts) there's not much that can kill you (no diseases...), a hundred years would be within living memory of most inhabitants, save for recent immigrants. Meaning that many nekos would actually remember their kind losing dominance over the city. It makes it, in Felaryan terms, extremely recent history. (Is that the whole idea?) Is it crucial that it be so recent, or would it be feasible to bring Negav's history within the bounds of Pelnepi's established canon, through some minor tweaking of dates?

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When I first came up with Pelnepi, I was assuming that human dominance in Negav was not a recent event. (I think it hadn't yet been proposed as such; please correct me if I'm wrong and overlooked it.) In a place where people don't age, and where (apart from the more violent districts) there's not much that can kill you (no diseases...), a hundred years would be within living memory of most inhabitants, save for recent immigrants. Meaning that many nekos would actually remember their kind losing dominance over the city. It makes it, in Felaryan terms, extremely recent history. (Is that the whole idea?) Is it crucial that it be so recent, or would it be feasible to bring Negav's history within the bounds of Pelnepi's established canon, through some minor tweaking of dates?

I believe the Great Destruction happened closer to 200 years prior to the present. I think its like 160-170 years ago. Although, I suppose making it happen further back is a possible option.

Ideas sometimes take a life of their own as the canon becomes more defined and more complex. They find their way into places even the creator may have never thought of, and sometimes become even more interesting than when they started.

In the end, its up to you though, since its you're idea. Personally, I just think its far more interesting as a sign of Micolon's continually weakening and ineffectual rule, and of the beginnings of the humans' rise to power, instead of just...something they decided to build one day.

Keep in mind, even with the immortality, people are still going to die in the middle and high tiers. Just look at the amount of fatal accidents that happen around the home. But yes, some people probably do remember the Great Destruction.

About 200 years ago (or just a little less) sounds good enough.

As for the reason... It could, conceivably, be a combination of both. As the humans rose in influence or power, having Pelnepi built as a haven for tinies coud have been simultaneously a way of flexing their muscles, responding to some humans' ethical concerns, and trying to get those tinies assembled where they could keep an eye on them. Major decisions, after all, are often due to a combination of factors; different humans may have supported this one for entirely divergent reasons.

The Great Destruction and the switch of total control to the Magiocrats only happened 128 years ago. Negav itself as a city is only 282 years old and was controlled by nekos in its early history, though that control slowly faded.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

The Great Destruction and the switch of total control to the Magiocrats only happened 128 years ago. Negav itself as a city is only 282 years old and was controlled by nekos in its early history, though that control slowly faded.

I could have sworn the Great Destruction was older than that. It may need to get pushed back slightly, because 128 years would be kind of recent.

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As for the reason... It could, conceivably, be a combination of both. As the humans rose in influence or power, having Pelnepi built as a haven for tinies coud have been simultaneously a way of flexing their muscles, responding to some humans' ethical concerns, and trying to get those tinies assembled where they could keep an eye on them. Major decisions, after all, are often due to a combination of factors; different humans may have supported this one for entirely divergent reasons

True. There would have needed to be tinies in the city to begin with though. Even if humans were allowed to build Pelnepi under Micolon's rule, there's no way any tinies would come to a Neko city to live in it.

That's why I proposed the idea of Pelnepi being built following the human-backed movement to outlaw selling or eating tinies in Negav. It would have given all the newly freed tinies a place to live, where the humans could keep an eye on them. If they just outlawed the tiny trade, and let the tinies run free in the city, they still would have been eaten left and right by Nekos, with no real way to enforce the new law.

rcs619 wrote:

I could have sworn the Great Destruction was older than that. It may need to get pushed back slightly, because 128 years would be kind of recent.

Indeed.

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True. There would have needed to be tinies in the city to begin with though. Even if humans were allowed to build Pelnepi under Micolon's rule, there's no way any tinies would come to a Neko city to live in it.

That's why I proposed the idea of Pelnepi being built following the human-backed movement to outlaw selling or eating tinies in Negav. It would have given all the newly freed tinies a place to live, where the humans could keep an eye on them. If they just outlawed the tiny trade, and let the tinies run free in the city, they still would have been eaten left and right by Nekos, with no real way to enforce the new law.

*nods* It makes for a reasonably neat combination of factors. Particularly if the humans at that stage were looking towards becoming the dominant power in Negav, actually governing the city within the foreseable future; it would make sense, then, to try and confine the tinies in advance, and watch them.

Nope, the Great Destruction occoured in 1940. (Though I do notice now that I look that date isn't set into the chronology. Huh. I swear I remember seeing it there... But it is sort of determined more by the set date we have for Negav's founding - 1786.)

I actually think that's a good date. While younger Negavians might not remember it, I think its important that a fair number of Negavians DO remember it, especially more influential Negavians (Who are more likely to have survived through the whole thing and beyond). It's partly what gives the Magiocrats their current political momentum and control.