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TheArchvile
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:13 pm

I think a 30-50 meter radius isn't too large a perimeter to guard, I dunno about you guys but my land has about a 50m radius, I could hire a dozen or so guards to check the perimeter without too much difficulty.
Remember, all someone has to do is wake the marked person up before the nemesis gets in range. You might actually want to AVOID crowded place to spot her more easily.
They're supposed to be frighteningly good assassins, and I think by Felarya standards they're not really that overpowered. Now a dusk nymph on the other hand...
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:59 pm

Oi, you seem to forget something my friend, it does mean they'll just come on de same ground level, Nemesises... Nemesii... plural of Nemesis, they can be fifty feet above you or below, you could be in a high quality hotel penthouse and de Nemesis could be five stories down and she'll still get you. Dusk Nymphs... don't get de Dway started.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:09 am

Yeah, it's still too unbalanced as it is. Maybe the idea should just be scrapped until it's better suited.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:01 am

I think people are being ridiculous.

The target has to be asleep, meaning you know when it's coming.

I doubt the process is instant, so anyone could simply wake you up.

50 meters is close to half a football field. Humans can cover that distance in 6-7 seconds.... people asking for 10 meters........ should they have to get into bed with you too?

Sorry....but I can hardly understand how this ability is considered too powerful.

In fact I'd say it's such an inefficient way of killing someone, that it's more of sending a message, not leaving a body, or something very personal are the only reasons anyone would hire an assassin to kill a person in this way.

How many assassins have to worry about getting away with a possibly screaming package in their stomach before they can say they successfully killed their target?
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:46 am

At least they could need to be able to see the mark person before dream eating it. I wouldn't mind the 50 meter range if you at least needed her to be able to see the victim for it to work. As for being inefficient, its mostly because it doesn't leave a body and apparently, it's silent as the victim simply vanish.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:09 am

You must to be asleep, ok, so you can "see" it coming, ok , and then what? Normally when you are sleeping , you are not really in position to move or defend yourself.

50 meters can be travel very fast, I know, but the fact is that you can't know from where the nemesis is coming, you would have to be protected from a a perimeter of 100 meters, including up and down. How do you protect yourself against that?
The short distance is only a problem for the nemesis if the targets knows about it, else there is no problem; 10 meters (or eventually sligltly more) is far enough to hide next to a building to use her power and then leave. 50 meters however, is far too easy even if the targets knows about it, and that's the problem. Being able to kill people without any risk at all is overpowered, even if it's their speciallity.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:39 am

I don't see where having to be within 50 meters of a target in a specific time frame = no risk.

Also remember that if this is a assassination, the nemesis still has to mark the target at some point.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:23 am

Well unless you are in the middle of the desert, 50 meters around the target gives you way too much spots to hide. Plus, I'm not sure about how the Nemesis proceeds when he dreams eat, if she has to stay in kind of trance mode or not, but, she still look like a human at some point, and I'm sure there must still be a few people walking around in the streets at night, making her even more diificult to find.

Now, I don't think the marking really has to do with the range, those two things are different parts of their power. As far as I know, the marking can be done really easily without anyone to know, she just have to find the person (in the streets, workofice, etc...)
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:14 am

I think people are putting too much weight on the environment. One can say if you were in this kind of building it would be easy to evade or while in this type of building it would be near impossible. Everyone needs to ignore the type of environment and look at the ability by itself.

Step One. Find the target and make eye contact to mark them.

Step Two. Use dream tracking to locate their residence if unknown.

Step Three. Perform dream eat.

Now these are relativity simple steps, and to be frank they should be. Remember that this species developed this ability for some reason on their home world and to be frank if it was full of you need to do this and that, then this, but not before doing that; the trait would have died out. People are trying to too much to make it so that the target has the ability to evade. Sometimes life however isn't fair. When a shark goes after a fish the fish doesn't stand a chance. Here there is still a chance for the target to fight back. If the target isn't smart enough to do it then too bad.

1) This is a magical ability, so it makes sense that the user before attempting to dream eat something would be using magic. Guess what Felarya has, species with the predator sense, and to my knowledge of how it works they detect magic. Now If you are being dream tracked all you have to do is find a naga or fairy willing to help or work for you and that narrows you search down greatly. (This could be another reason to let hybrids live in Negav. To serve as bodyguards of sorts for wealthy unliked individuals )

2) This ability can be fought off, although with difficulty someone such as a psychic or other person with strong control over their mind would be able to fight back.

3) If you are being dream tracked why would you get into a multistory building to begin with? you want to minimize the area that can be occupied. thus a single story house on flat terrain that can be watched easily would be best. Someone going to a multistory hotel especial after realizing they are being dream tracked deserves to die.

Something I would like to see however is that whenever a Nemesis uses their dream tracking that some type of nightmare must be produced, and as to sending messages I think that nightmares should still be used with the message somehow contained within.

When you think of it the range isn't terrible for the Nemesis they have to be within a 30-50m this range is likely based on the skill/ability of the Nemesis a weaker or inexperienced Nemesis would likely have to be closer to the 30m mark while an older more experienced Nemesis would be able to be closer to the 50m mark. This range is really not that remarkable given that the Nemesis must stay within the area (presumably still) while they infiltrate the dream and eat them. The range however looks like much more when you take a defensive stance having to guard a maximum of a 50m radius bubble around the target.

Yes, this ability can be intimidating when looking at it defensively, but in an offensive stance it really isn't too intimidating and of the top of my head I can think of a variety of ways to counter it.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:26 am

Looking back at Karbo's post, a Nemesis can attempt to dream eat someone within 50 meters, but it also seems to be at its weakest, as in the marked person can fight back more easily. The closer the Nemesis is from the marked person, the easier it is for her to succeed. Thinking of it this way, the ability has a certain balance. She can do it from quite a distance, but its target has a better chance of waking up, or she can do it quite closely and have an easier time dream-eating, but this makes getting to the target more dangerous if it has a security force.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:15 am

What Sean says could be a pretty well thought way to balance this power. I like it in the way that it could work: the closer the Nemesis is, the easier she can dream-eat her target, although that's the most dangerous way if she's discovered.

I like how it sounds.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:23 am

Hmm, yea that's also true, i guess I kinda forgot about that.
My stand was more for a 100% efficient nemesis, but if the chances of succes are weak at 50 meters ... I guess it's more believable =)
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:22 am

I want also to point that the Nemesis attempting the dream-eating would be in a vulnerable position while doing it. That's not an instant process. It would take several minutes during which the Nemesis simply can't move. If she is found by security guards or whatever, she is basically screwed.

I honestly don't find them overpowered. I mean yes they are powerful, with a scary ability, but they are also few and can die just like anyone else.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:31 am

You know what Uncle Ben said: "with great power comes great responsibility". And Nemesises should know it.

At first I was a bit hesitant about the whole 30-50 meter range, but when you give it a second thought, it doesn't seem that overpowered, and with all the explanations here, it makes things harder for the Nemesis.

Balancing seemingly overpowered creatures is always fun, mainly because you'll have to be creative in order to make it so they don't end underpowered and to use them in stories with some good creativity. And man, this whole Nemesis topic has helped my creative juices for some stuff to come in the future. =D
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:49 am

I guess that's a good way to balance it. Still, the whole "body just disappearing" bit is iffy to me. That just doesn't make sense no matter what magic you apply to it. It's like giving an assassin the ability to murder someone, then remove any and all evidence that it ever happened. That can be abused far too much.


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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:02 am

Now I want to come back with something I said before. You say that the nemesis will be inmobil for a few minutes, but is there an actual a way to tell it's a nemesis at this point? is there an external feature that shows up when she use her power? I don't think a guard would stab a random person just for sitting there.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:45 am

Karbo wrote:
I want also to point that the Nemesis attempting the dream-eating would be in a vulnerable position while doing it. That's not an instant process. It would take several minutes during which the Nemesis simply can't move. If she is found by security guards or whatever, she is basically screwed.

I honestly don't find them overpowered. I mean yes they are powerful, with a scary ability, but they are also few and can die just like anyone else.
That is more or less how I have fairy shrink preys. I know it's overpowering on paper, but don't make it an instantaneous process, so if a fairy decided to shrink a human in the open with his two buddies around, she's asking to get shot.

Now back to the Nemesis, one of the ways to identify it is if they're very lanky, especially their neck since it's apparently quite long. I assume it's about the length as those tribes who stack rings around their neck.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:13 am

What about ways to thwart or even catch a nemesis?

Consider something like a dreamcatcher – a Chippewa cultural item that was intended to filter the dreams a child has so that only good dreams are allowed through and bad dreams are caught. Extend that concept into the magical realm. Perhaps there could be versions of dreamcatchers in Felarya (specifically in Negav) to serve as a shield against a nemesis and even as a weapon against them.

If a nemesis attempts to enter the dream of someone who is protected by a dreamcatcher, the nemesis may find herself the victim, caught in the web of the item, unable to escape. Her body would remain vulnerable and perhaps even die unless she found a way out. Alternatively, there could be less potent dreamcatchers that simply block a nemesis from entering a person’s dreams. She would have to find some other method of attack, find some way to remove the dreamcatcher, or find a way to move the target out of the protected area.

The true magical versions of these items need not be commonplace. In fact, they should be as rare as nemesis themselves. However, the very fact they existed at all means that a nemesis (an intelligent one anyway), would be obliged to enter the premises of an intended victim to ensure they did not possess such a protective charm. Failure to do so might result in severe consequences…

So let’s say we have three tiers of dreamcatchers:
1) The lowest tier would be the non-magical versions that could be found on the streets of Negav for a pittance. These may look pretty and the merchants may say they offer many other fabulous benefits, but they are not effective against a nemesis… so buyer beware. The presence of them may give a nemesis pause – until they realize the item possesses no magic.
2) The next tier up would be magical versions that are quite expensive and can only be purchased from those who know how to make them. The art of making them might be a closely guarded secret so only a few know how. The items may not last for very long and they may require recharging. They may have other restrictions, but the point is that they are effective at blocking the dreams a nemesis uses to get at her victims. It’s conceivable that within this tier of dreamcatchers, some are more effective than others – so a very powerful nemesis might be able to pierce through the protection of a weak dreamcatcher.
3) The final tier of dreamcatchers and the rarest of the rare are the powerful, elaborate ones designed to not only filter out bad dreams, but also catch them and hold them. A nemesis caught by one of these special dreamcatchers would be in a world of trouble, as her body would remain vulnerable for as long as she remained trapped. It is possible these dreamcatchers could even destroy a nemesis if they remain trapped until the morning, when their essence would fade away with the coming of dawn. Or they could simply hold the nemesis until morning and then release them – if the nemesis’ body had not been discovered in the interim, she could escape. These dreamcatchers would be the most expensive and it’s possible they might not be for sale at all. They might only be available to those in the upper circles of power in Negav.

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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:04 pm

That's a very good point, and not everyone can use a psionic ability in their sleep that would fight off the Nemesis. Not only that, a Nemesis (one that's smart) would capitalize on magic that specifically focuses on areas involving sleep magic. So what exactly could counter a dream? The dreamcatcher item is a very good idea.

I think psychologically, the first tier of dreamcatchers could be dangerous. ie: If you truly believe something it can become real.

On one hand though, first we had the dreams nemesi used to dream eat people, but now with the effects of the dream catchers, we're trading one absolute for another. The dream catcher catches the nemesis and there's nothing that she can do about it. That should probably be changed to a nemesis with a strong willpower or psyche could break free from being trapped by the dream catcher, but she simply will have to find a way around it if she wants to eat her target. (However that's just eat, I'm sure with psionics she *could* do more than just eat her victim if she wanted to.)
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:30 am

That's a great idea here I think !
It's a nice twist to an existing concept and one that makes sense. It also allow to put a check on their abilities without it being forced. Great job ^^

Vaderaz : Likes Sean pointed, Nemesises are really quite easy to recognize. They are emaciated beings with characteristic outfits and features that set them apart from humans.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:46 am

Oh, I like the dreamcatcher idea very much. I'll take twenty.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:33 am

That's indeed a quite good idea, I don't know how nobody thought about it before xD
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:35 am

Sehoolighan wrote:
Dusk Nymphs... don't get de Dway started.
Now Dway, just because they're Dusk Nymphs doesn't mean that they are actual competent.

Vashta: "HEY!!!"

Joking aside, asaenvolk did come up with the Orggel, a sect of Elementialist in Negav who hunt down elementals to crystallize their spirit into the various jewels.
They embed these gems into their skin as part of their magical training, and the crystals also resonate in the presence of elementals and their kin.

I figure if any Dusk Nymph in Negav realises that these people are the nightmarish "Tattooed Hunters" from the "Old Fae tales", then they will probably want to get out of the city as soon as possible.

Pendragon wrote:
I guess that's a good way to balance it. Still, the whole "body just disappearing" bit is iffy to me. That just doesn't make sense no matter what magic you apply to it. It's like giving an assassin the ability to murder someone, then remove any and all evidence that it ever happened. That can be abused far too much.
Well any surveillance devices would show that who ever it was uses a lot of shadow magic...

Oh wait, we were talking about Nemesii...
My mistake!
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:07 pm

Lol. Oh yeah, dream catchers should also probably have a radii effect to, like the person sleeping has to sleep within 5-10 meters of it, so if they went somewhere else in Felarya, if they wanted to stay safe from the nemesis, they'd have to leave it at home. Otherwise you could say that the effect of the dream catcher identifies with the owner, and the effect of the magical object stays glued to you as long as you own it. That would sound a little over powered too. Sorry if I'm giving too much advice on your idea timing, just spouting things coming to mind here XD.

As far as what Pendragon said about the body disappearance, I imagine when a nemesis swallows someone, they're put in a "stomach dimension" or something, it would be like it's the Nemesis' stomach but it acts as a space time dimension all to itself, and that's why you wouldn't be able to tell if a Nemesis was digesting prey at that moment. Also, that would be connected with just it's special ability, not the way it's stomach works, so a Nemesis that's skilled enough could potentially create an additional stomach dimension to house another victim in, but you'd never be able to know whether or not that was the case. This way, they can still have the room to eat normal food if they wanted, and also eat it's target at the same time, and that would also be why said Nemesis is immobile during it's "eating process".

If one person is being eaten by the Nemesis when it gets interrupted, the person will probably just reappear above the caught nemesis, or back in their bed.
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PostSubject: Re: About Nemesises   Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:31 pm

I think the stomach dimension is a cop-out. There's really no need to explain how the dream-eat works, since it's supposed to be an utter mystery in the first place. All that is known is that when a Nemesis is close enough to a person she marked, she can enter a trance where she eats the person in the dream. When the victim falls in the Dream Nemesis, stomach, his body somehow dematerialize and rematerialize inside the real Nemesis' stomach, though at a reduced size to match the proportions inside the dream, since I believe the Nemesis will appear giant in the dream.
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