problems with how humans are portrayed.

Jasconius wrote:

I think your giving the healing factor too much credit. Sure its powerful, at least compared to natural, unaided healing factors, but its not that powerful.

Agreed. The healing effect isn't world wide wolverine regeneration

Guys, obviously...

Guns = Real
Magic = Not Real

Thus,

Magic > Guns

---

In any case, healing being faster than bleeding isn't really the case. However, internal bleeding is only really serious if something vital is hit, or if a major blood vessel is ruptured.

Guys, looking at your posts, a thought occurs. This thread is about how humans are portrayed, not about how easy/hard it is to kill a giant predator (I'm pretty certain there's a thread for that already). Either way it's a moot point, because only the biggest factions in Negav could get access to the weapons you're talking about, and even then, the governments that would make these weapons wouldn't just hand them over to the ps'isol magiocrats. Your average human adventurer is going to be armed with an assault rifle tops, and maybe some grenades if they're lucky. Not to mention I doubt all these weapons and weapon systems are going to have difficulty surviving the wear and tear of constant attacks from sentient and non-sentient predators, and I won't even go into limited ammunition supplies or the difficulty of lugging a rocket launcher, substantial amounts of ammo for said rocket launcher and a small arm weapon through the jugnle, especially considering how bulky they would be.

So can we please get back to the human part of the topic? It has been mentioned already that humans are either fodder or story-dependent characters. I've never been a huge fan of vore (although some preds are teh sexy) but I recognise that Felarya is a fetish universe. Yes, some parts can cause me to be slightly horrified, but other forms of media can be horrific too. There are plenty of movies were the hero guns down hundreds of 'bad' guys, all just to get to one person for some abstract reason like revenge or patriotism. Seeing dozens of men who could all have families killed by this guy is kinda horrific too when you think about it, but we suspend that kind of thinking so we can enjoy the movie. When I'm reading the Felarya manga, I just do the same thing.

Well said, but it is important to know exactly how frail and mortal both parties are to help avoid a completely one-sided situation either way. As tempting as it may be to write about preds who can capture anyone, or prey who can overpower any pred, what's the point of staging conflict between the two if the outcome is already assured?

I'm just stating that any moron can find some way to access firearms, and once they do they wouldn't be 'completely' helpless, at the very least. Use that as a baseline for the level of challenge a predator has to overcome on each hunting trip. She has to get around that pesky little weapon, so it becomes all the more meaningful when you see tactics that are more involved than the simple "grab prey, eat prey, done". The prey, likewise, doesn't stand much a chance of killing her, but gunfire is painful. The same way that just one wasp sting probably isn't going to kill you, but when you see one buzzing in your direction it suddenly becomes tempting to get out of the way.

You have a point Edgedweapon.
But part of the problem is that people often show predators as virtually nuke proof and humans using swords against them. It is part of the problem.

Anyway, now that we've established that predators can't take a hit from an anti tank weapon and come out smiling, I think we can move onto the next part of this problem, which is while predators can be hurt by X weapon, nobody shows them ever using X weapon.
Humans (this applies more to adventurers and people who should know what's out there) are shown as stupid and unprepared.

For example;
Adventurers aren't going to take swords into the jungle. They're ineffective against too many things and not useful enough in other respects.
I reckon they're still going to need blades though, so utility blades like axes, machetes, things like that special forces shovel and other blades that serve multiple purposes will be taken instead. These can be used for making shelters, slashing through vines, etc.

Quote :

Adventurers aren't going to take swords into the jungle.

You already know my stance on it. Pray that none of you make me go back to that tangent, because it certainly will not be pretty.

To sum it up as best as possible and as neutrally as possible.

Most adventurers in Negav are off-worlders, so it's safe to presume that quite a lot of them don't have advanced technology, and using the sword or axe is more of a question of familiarity.

Ammunition outside of the large settlements are next to impossible to acquire, and when your rifle runs out of bullets, it's going to be useless. A mace doesn't run out of ammo, so it's practical as an emergency weapon. Utility blades may do the trick, but some creatures out there have hides that blades won't even scrape.

Giant hybrids, and giant animals for that matter, can't be as common as most people assume they are. Something smaller, but still quite aggressive, ought to be more common. Gun fire may be effective against those, but that would be considered a waste of ammunition when it would be better to save it against a much bigger threat.

Lastly, Karbo has drawn humans using low-tech weapons quite a few times already. I categorically oppose the mindset that no character, regardless of origin, cannot be a close-range fighter. It is incredibly restrictive and a huge contradiction to a setting that is essentially the center of the multiverse. Yes, I am aware that this is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight. But really, fighting a giant in the first place should be the last resort, firearms or not. It is much safer to avoid them to begin with.

Quote :

For example;
Adventurers aren't going to take swords into the jungle. They're ineffective against too many things and not useful enough in other respects

That isn't entirely accurate. While a sword, pistol, dagger, and other small weapons are completely useless against the truly dangerous wildlife in Felarya, remember that isn't the only threat. The near-Negav area has plenty of thieves and bandits willing to take advantage of adventurers, not to mention the various thugs and random opportunists in the low district. Having a personal defense weapon, be it a sword, a pistol, a hand-axe, etc to deal with human-sized dangers would be a smart investment for most anyone.

Now, comibining weapons is a good idea too. Like, a machete and a hatchet are great utility tools, and can be used for self-defense as well.

Quote :

Humans (this applies more to adventurers and people who should know what's out there) are shown as stupid and unprepared.

Yeah, that is a common problem. I figure humans in Felarya fall into a few common categories.

- Offworlders (Unaware): These are your common "pred-bait" humans. They arrive in Felarya, either through a random dimensional event, or through a magical/artificial dimensional portal. These humans know nothing about Felarya or its dangers, and usually all die by the end of the story. (NOTE: Adventurers, explorers scientific expeditions and random indivuduals can all fall into this group)

- Offworlders (Prepared): Sometimes though, offworlders DO know about the dangers. Sometimes, some humans in the first group survive to get back home. So future expeditions will be better prepared. They won't make the same stupid mistakes, and they will likely be much better armed and/or have an official military escort. The Delurans and Miritans also fall into this group.

- Adventurers: These are humans or other human-like species, who come to Felarya to find their fortune. They come through the dimensional gate in Negav or through portals made by their own technology/magic. They will at least know about the dangers. Whether or not they take them seriously or not likely depends on the group. I could see some novice adventurers dismissing the locals' "Monster stories". Other adventuring groups would be very aware of the danger and be highly prepared.

- City-dwellers: Average people, soldiers, merchants and traders, blacksmiths, bakers and so on fall into this group. These are humans who live in Felarya's handful of settlements. They know about the dangers of the world around them, which is why they never leave their home. In Negav, many of these people make a living off the adventurers and other offworlders who pass through the city.

Unfortunately, the first group tends to get most of the attention in a lot of stories.

Quote :

Most adventurers in Negav are off-worlders, so it's safe to presume that quite a lot of them don't have advanced technology, and using the sword or axe is more of a question of familiarity

Most adventurers coming to Negav are going to have technology (or magical equivalents to technology). They are coming from worlds advanced enought to create dimensional gates, either through standard tech or magi-tech. Pistols, shotguns and hunting rifles would be exeedingly common. Assault rifles are probably very common too, as most are civillian legal on semi-auto, and can be easily modified for full-auto fire by someone who knows how. That being said, melee weapons utility tools, and other such things will see use, either as close-range defense weapons, fallback weapons or utility tools for use out in the wilderness.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Far more painful than that. Modern Assault rifles are more akin to bee stings, if a bee could sting around 600 times in one minute.
It would be possible to kill a predator with a Heavy machine gun, but the event would be death-by-1000 cuts. Very inefficient, not to mention that the predator would have run away long before it got to that.

Unless you were using something akin to a Raufoss Mk 211, which would be more of a death-by-a-1000 needles-that-exploded-into-firey-balls-of-death.

rcs619 wrote:

Archmage_Bael wrote:

To be honest, I don't even think the RPG-7 would be common. you'd have to come from a militarized world like ours, and even then, the "ammo" isn't exactly small. You'll have less than 10 rounds with that thing, which basically means you'll have enough ammo to get you to negav if you get unlucky with what gate you end up warping into.

Pretty much. The only groups that would have those kinds of weapons are offworld military groups, and the Isolon Fist (since they import from offworld).

Military-grade weapons are not exactly common or easy for random people to come by.

Unless you were to come across a certain ArmaDense Sales representitive...

rcs619 wrote:

Quote :

For example;
Adventurers aren't going to take swords into the jungle. They're ineffective against too many things and not useful enough in other respects

That isn't entirely accurate. While a sword, pistol, dagger, and other small weapons are completely useless against the truly dangerous wildlife in Felarya, remember that isn't the only threat. The near-Negav area has plenty of thieves and bandits willing to take advantage of adventurers, not to mention the various thugs and random opportunists in the low district. Having a personal defense weapon, be it a sword, a pistol, a hand-axe, etc to deal with human-sized dangers would be a smart investment for most anyone.

Now, comibining weapons is a good idea too. Like, a machete and a hatchet are great utility tools, and can be used for self-defense as well.

True, some kind of personal defense weapon isn't a bad idea...

...But I think that, unless it's part of their backstory, more traditional melee weapons aren't a very good choice.
Like you said, knifes and hand-axes have a number of uses, but a Halberd won't.

Still, this doesn't account for the character's personal preference.
For instance, I have a character who carries numerous knifes and combat tomahawks but, due to his Sci-Fi Geekdom, mostly uses his Vibroblade Combat Bat'leth for a melee fight.

rcs619 wrote:

Quote :

Most adventurers in Negav are off-worlders, so it's safe to presume that quite a lot of them don't have advanced technology, and using the sword or axe is more of a question of familiarity

Most adventurers coming to Negav are going to have technology (or magical equivalents to technology). They are coming from worlds advanced enought to create dimensional gates, either through standard tech or magi-tech. Pistols, shotguns and hunting rifles would be exeedingly common. Assault rifles are probably very common too, as most are civillian legal on semi-auto, and can be easily modified for full-auto fire by someone who knows how. That being said, melee weapons utility tools, and other such things will see use, either as close-range defense weapons, fallback weapons or utility tools for use out in the wilderness.

Indeed, as well as the various arms vendors Negav probably is host to.

Black Aquila wrote:

Like you said, knifes and hand-axes have a number of uses, but a Halberd won't.

Actually, I believe that polearms, en-mass, would be useful, as you could present a wall of spikes to whatever threatening you.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Actually, I believe that polearms, en-mass, would be useful, as you could present a wall of spikes to whatever threatening you.

The pikes are definitely a good idea. They could be a bit awkward to carry in areas where the jungle is thicker, but they would be cheaper than an anti-tank weapon, and work just as well. Provided the predators can't throw fireballs. Or stealthily pick you off one-by-one. Or attack from underground...

But it does raise another point - no matter how powerful these weapons are, they would be hideously expensive. I'm not saying that powerful assault rifles won't hurt a pred or anything like that, but I can't imagine human adventurers being the wealthiest people out there. Unless they have a very VERY rich sponsor, most humans won't be able to afford a squad's worth of anti-tank weapons. In fact, they could do more harm then good - having the newby shriek and fire off a rocket everytime something near him twitches would attract preds very quickly. But I'm getting off topic. The point is, I can see adventurers using primitive weapons like swords and pikes because they are considerably cheaper than firearms, and don't make a loud noise when you use them.

Quote :

But it does raise another point - no matter how powerful these weapons are, they would be hideously expensive

I doubt that. Look at the situation of Negav. Thousands of adventurers from a dozen different worlds. If you're a gun salesman/trader/etc, you can make a killing. Negav is going to have hundreds of merchants trying to beat and undercut eachother. If anything, firearms, supplies, survival tools and other common things adventurers buy would be pretty cheap, from all the competition between the merchants to draw in the most customers.

If your product is so expensive almost no one will buy them, you don't belong in a massive trade-hub city.

Quote :

most humans won't be able to afford a squad's worth of anti-tank weapons

A group of civillians aren't going to even have access to anti-tank weapons. Those kinds of military grade weapons will only be owned by
- Offworld military groups (They aren't going to sell their weapons to other people)
- The Isolon Fist/Investigators (Since the Magiocrats can afford to import them from offworld)
- The Vishmitals (Who are going to keep their weapons to themselves)

The only civillian groups I could see having large-caliber military-grade firearms and explosives are the top-tier mercenary groups who may be able to buy some surplus weapons from the Magiocrats, due to the amount of money and political influence they wield.

The most common guns amongst adventurers are going to be pistols, shotguns, hunting rifles and assault rifles. Of course, there are always black markets, so its likely some people could get access to otherwise unobtainable weapons for a price.

Quote :

In fact, they could do more harm then good - having the newby shriek and fire off a rocket everytime something near him twitches would attract preds very quickly

...Anyone who is that jumpy likely would not make any decently-trained adventurer or mercenary squad in the first place. If someone DID do that, they'd likely get their weapon taken away after the first incident. Its not like they'd be giving the rockets to just anyone. Its a weapon with few, and expesnive ammo. You aren't going to give it to someone who is just going to shoot it off willy-nilly.

Quote :

I can see adventurers using primitive weapons like swords and pikes because they are considerably cheaper than firearms, and don't make a loud noise when you use them.

They are also useless agaisnt anything a couple times larger than a human. No noise? If you have to fight against a wild animal with one, its going to be running around, roaring, yelling in pain after you cut it. Not to mention any of your group that gets injured in the attack. They then become a liability to the expedition. Melee weapons need to be for defense against humans (and human-sized people), small animals and utility. That's why something like a tomahawk, hatchet or machete would be good for the job. Very useful tools as well as weapons.

rcs619 wrote:

I doubt that. Look at the situation of Negav. Thousands of adventurers from a dozen different worlds. If you're a gun salesman/trader/etc, you can make a killing. Negav is going to have hundreds of merchants trying to beat and undercut eachother. If anything, firearms, supplies, survival tools and other common things adventurers buy would be pretty cheap, from all the competition between the merchants to draw in the most customers.

If your product is so expensive almost no one will buy them, you don't belong in a massive trade-hub city.

Yeah, but my point is that a lot of weapons being talked about here are extremely expensive to make and rare even for the govenments who make them. It doesn't matter how fierce the competition is, a group of adventurers (people who don't have a steady job and would live most of their lives in the lower tier) are not going to be able to afford something like that unless they're willing to go back out into the jungle to search for more plunder a lot sooner than they normally would.

rcs619 wrote:

A group of civillians aren't going to even have access to anti-tank weapons. Those kinds of military grade weapons will only be owned by
- Offworld military groups (They aren't going to sell their weapons to other people)
- The Isolon Fist/Investigators (Since the Magiocrats can afford to import them from offworld)
- The Vishmitals (Who are going to keep their weapons to themselves)

Nice to see we can agree on something. Although I suppose if one of those offworld military groups got wiped out or needed intel, a bigger weapon could find its way into the hands of adventurers.

rcs619 wrote:

The most common guns amongst adventurers are going to be pistols, shotguns, hunting rifles and assault rifles. Of course, there are always black markets, so its likely some people could get access to otherwise unobtainable weapons for a price.

Yeah, but the black market weapons would be even more expensive than weapons bought legitimately, and those are already really really expensive.

rcs619 wrote:

...Anyone who is that jumpy likely would not make any decently-trained adventurer or mercenary squad in the first place. If someone DID do that, they'd likely get their weapon taken away after the first incident. Its not like they'd be giving the rockets to just anyone. Its a weapon with few, and expesnive ammo. You aren't going to give it to someone who is just going to shoot it off willy-nilly.

This is a valid point. I recognise that they wouldn't just give a rocket launcher to the newby, but my argument still stands - there's no point having a weapon which kills one giant pred, but attracts half-a-dozen more with the noise it makes.

rcs619 wrote:

They are also useless agaisnt anything a couple times larger than a human. No noise? If you have to fight against a wild animal with one, its going to be running around, roaring, yelling in pain after you cut it. Not to mention any of your group that gets injured in the attack. They then become a liability to the expedition. Melee weapons need to be for defense against humans (and human-sized people), small animals and utility. That's why something like a tomahawk, hatchet or machete would be good for the job. Very useful tools as well as weapons.

And so shooting them with a firearm would be quieter? If a human-sized naga jumps out and tries to eat you they're gonna be striking really fast. An axe is a lot easier to aim than a firearm if a naga-shaped blur is coming at you, and if your buddy is the one who got jumped then the chances of friendly fire go way down.

I'm not trying to say firearms are useless on Felarya. They're one of the few advantages humans have over predators. But I do think that because of practical and economic reasons, it makes sense for an adventurer to carry a melee weapon, which never runs out of ammo and works every time, as well as a firearm. I'm just trying to get across that the image of a human adventurer packing a melee weapon rather than a rocket launcher might not be so nonsensical after all. Now can we please focus back on humans and less on weapons?

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Black Aquila wrote:

Like you said, knifes and hand-axes have a number of uses, but a Halberd won't.

Actually, I believe that polearms, en-mass, would be useful, as you could present a wall of spikes to whatever threatening you.

Yes, en-mass.
But for a single adventurer, it's just a heavy, long stick with a slashy/stabby bit on the end, and a simple throwing spear would be a far better tool for that.

EdgedWeapon wrote:

The pikes are definitely a good idea. They could be a bit awkward to carry in areas where the jungle is thicker, but they would be cheaper than an anti-tank weapon, and work just as well. Provided the predators can't throw fireballs. Or stealthily pick you off one-by-one. Or attack from underground...

Again, pikes are only effective when used in formations, like the Pike square.
You'd still need a large number of men to hold all those pointy-bits, so we're probably talking some type of armed force.
I can see a native tribe using this sort of tactic for their militia, but not a simple adventuring outfit.

rcs619 wrote:

Quote :

But it does raise another point - no matter how powerful these weapons are, they would be hideously expensive

I doubt that. Look at the situation of Negav. Thousands of adventurers from a dozen different worlds. If you're a gun salesman/trader/etc, you can make a killing. Negav is going to have hundreds of merchants trying to beat and undercut eachother. If anything, firearms, supplies, survival tools and other common things adventurers buy would be pretty cheap, from all the competition between the merchants to draw in the most customers.

If your product is so expensive almost no one will buy them, you don't belong in a massive trade-hub city.

Indeed.
Hell, Dick Drebin gives the Wiglaf Special away for free, because the real money comes from selling the ammunition.

rcs619 wrote:

Quote :

I can see adventurers using primitive weapons like swords and pikes because they are considerably cheaper than firearms, and don't make a loud noise when you use them.

They are also useless agaisnt anything a couple times larger than a human. No noise? If you have to fight against a wild animal with one, its going to be running around, roaring, yelling in pain after you cut it. Not to mention any of your group that gets injured in the attack. They then become a liability to the expedition. Melee weapons need to be for defense against humans (and human-sized people), small animals and utility. That's why something like a tomahawk, hatchet or machete would be good for the job. Very useful tools as well as weapons.

Again I agree, primitive instruments of war are just that, instruments of war.

They are designed to fight similar sized targets and can, in fact, be expensive when factors such as the availability of workable metals or training are taken into consideration.
Really, the only places I see people using these types of melee weaponry are ether character who have training in one as part of their backstory, or the warriors of native Felaryan tribes who are distanced from places like Negav.

EdgedWeapon wrote:

I'm not trying to say firearms are useless on Felarya. They're one of the few advantages humans have over predators. But I do think that because of practical and economic reasons, it makes sense for an adventurer to carry a melee weapon, which never runs out of ammo and works every time, as well as a firearm. I'm just trying to get across that the image of a human adventurer packing a melee weapon rather than a rocket launcher might not be so nonsensical after all. Now can we please focus back on humans and less on weapons?

That's all well and good Edged, but we were arguing the impracticality of some melee weapons over others.

EdgedWeapon wrote:

Yeah, but my point is that a lot of weapons being talked about here are extremely expensive to make and rare even for the govenments who make them. It doesn't matter how fierce the competition is, a group of adventurers (people who don't have a steady job and would live most of their lives in the lower tier) are not going to be able to afford something like that unless they're willing to go back out into the jungle to search for more plunder a lot sooner than they normally would.

Aha, excuse me? Training's much more expensive than weapons, man. That's the money-sucker right there. Training. While heavy ammunition isn't something you'd find your average person purchasing daily, it's not like it's millions of dollars for one. (Also, understand that many of the types on that page are vehicle-mounted weapon ammo. Really, all you'd need are .50 cals in most cases, which are about $7 a round. Full-on explosive tank rounds are more trouble than they're worth.)

As for standard infantry rifles? Please, they'd be cheaper than shoes! A cheap-ass AR-15 is affordable to even me, and that's with taxes and laws and less competition than Negav has!

You are aware of basic economics, yes? Supply and demand? The higher the supply, the lower the demand and thus the price?

EdgedWeapon wrote:

And so shooting them with a firearm would be quieter? If a human-sized naga jumps out and tries to eat you they're gonna be striking really fast. An axe is a lot easier to aim than a firearm if a naga-shaped blur is coming at you, and if your buddy is the one who got jumped then the chances of friendly fire go way down.

Nope. It'd be scarier. Listen, the jungle isn't crawling with giant hybrids behind every tree. Most of the shit that'll kill you is a little smaller, and less threatening. Shit that would be spooked by a gunshot. Shit that would AVOID you. Sure, a giant pred might hear, but it's more likely to say "oh shit, humans with guns, not an easy nom" or "what was that sound, it was really sharp and sudden, I should avoid it" than "oooh, treats that will require me to take several painful stings across my body and risk possible death depending on their weaponry, itadakimasu!", for crying out loud! Hey man, I am craving a meatball hoagie so fucking hard right now. MI kinda wish I lived in Pennsylvania again, because the Italian places there make excellent hoagies, but maybe I'll drive to Subway and get one from them, because it's acceptable. Now, even though I could go for one so fucking badly, that doesn't mean I'm going to walk through a swarm of hornets for one. Nope. There are easier ways to get food.

"Easier ways to get food? What do you mean, Zion?" Well kids, I'm here to tell you that you don't NEED to kill a pred to be safe! Le gasp! After all, does a lion go for the big, strong buck of an antelope that can easily escape or worse, put up a fight? If you said yes, I really hope your nuts fall off and you never breed, because predators go for the WEAK ones. See, there's these things called calories. Yep, those things your momma has too much of. In nature, they're important, because they're fuel. We fatasses in civilization get them for cheap, and get obese as hell, but in nature, it's not so easy. You've got to manage your calories, or you die. Die. Got it? So if a pred puts on a derp-face and blindly goes after every single lifeform it can stuff in its face, it'll use more energy than it gets from eating them. Spending more than you get... I don't see many American preds in Felarya. (I'm American, so I can say it. We have a problem with spending too much. Our government knows even less about nature than my opponent here.) Case in point, the sound of guns may actually be a positive thing. I'm not saying it's foolproof, but if you're only giving away your general position, it may make it possible to set ambushes for preds that don't know any better.

EdgedWeapon wrote:

I'm not trying to say firearms are useless on Felarya. They're one of the few advantages humans have over predators.

Which is EX-FUCKING-ZACTLY why we are spending so much time on them in this thread. It was started by Ike bitching his ass off about how humans in Felarya weren't all Professor SuperMage McSplodeyBrains, or the Second Coming of the Aryan Race. It moved to guns because we were trying to be practical, and show that humans CAN, in fact, pwn preds. Because even though Ike was a dumb son of a bitch who had some sort of inferiority complex that needed to be addressed, it's true that there are some cases of people treating human characters as dumb fucks who are there to be eaten by super-sexy pred-ladies who then go on to have a nice, big orgy/feast. I'm not saying noms don't happen. I'm not saying there aren't dumbasses who head off into the jungle unprepared. I'd like to point out, though, that half those dumbasses packed a melee weapon instead of a rocket launcer. Can meelee weapons be used effectively? Yes, with either enchantments, strategy, or cleverness... but then again, those are harder to come by than guns! Sure, swords don't run out of ammunition, but if you're close enough to a pred to use it... well, you're fucked. I'm not against melee weapons, but I am against irrational arguments.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

I'm not against melee weapons, but I am against irrational arguments.

Yeah, and I'm against people who just post a lot of insulting verbal diahorrea. I'm not your 'oppnent', I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just trying to make a point.

A human-sized predator who hears gunshots won't try to locate and eat the party of adventurers, but a human-sized pred isn't going to try to take on a whole party of adventurers anyway. And I never said predators just went around stuffing their faces. I said giant predators would hear the gunshots and be able to find your adventuring party. I doubt they would be deterred from a full, hearty meal by a few minor stings, and even if you do have something heavier than that it won't stop them from picking off a few stragglers silently, or just waiting until your party sets up camp and falls asleep before eating you. Predators are just as clever in their own way as adventurers, and actually know the terrain better (it is their territory, after all) so it is unlikely they would have much success if a giant pred found them

Also, I'm not talking about assault rifles. They may be cheap, in part because of the law of supply and demand, but the law of supply and demand is not going to cause people who sell weapons like rocket launchers to sell at a loss. It costs a lot more money to make an anti-tank weapon than it does to make a rifle. The manufacturers ould sell it at a profit to the middlemen, who would transport it to felarya and then sell it to the distributors/retailers at a profit, who would then try to sell it on to adventurers at a profit. This means that they are going to be expensive, irregardless of how cheap you can get a rifle for.

Finally, a lot of the worlds that Felarya connects to, stably or otherwise, would contain people who had never even heard of blackpowder. They would be a lot more comfortable with a sword, especially if they know how to use one, so there would still be a market for melee weapons. Not to mention Felarya is saturated with magic and magic-users, so maigic weapons would be a lot more common than you think. Not so common that everyone has one, but not as rare as they usually are. And common enough so that they are probably cheaper than a rocket launcher and the needed ammo.

I'm not saying a group of well-armed, well-prepared adventurers can't take down a giant predator, and I'm not saying that if they are confronted with a well-armed, well-prepared adventuring party, a giant predator won't back down and look for an easier meal. But I am saying that a human sized pred, when confronted with an adventurer with a firearm would be as likely to back down as if they were facing an adventurer armed with a large glowing axe. And because the axe is silent, there would be far fewer preds who find him/her. Also, melee weapons (which require no ammo whatsoever) would be cheaper than guns and be lower maintenace, so if you are an adventurer who arrived at Negav with nothing because you were warped to Felarya unexpectedly (ie no weapons training, nothing but poverty and a need for therapy after time in Felarya's jungle) then a melee weapon would make for a cheaper, better option.

There would still be 'You just brought a knife to a GUN fight' moments (literal ones in Negav and figurative ones with experienced giant preds), but you have to remember. This is Felarya. Vore happens.

Quote :

a full, hearty meal

Not really. Remember, humans are shorter than a finger to a pred. They're snacks. A human would be less of a meal than a pred-sized cookie. Even a group of humans is just going to be a snack. I mean, how many cookies do you eat when you want a little snack? 5-8? Unless they come across some kind of massive expedition, they aren't going to be getting any kind of full meal out of a couple humans.

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by a few minor stings

Would you try to steal cookies out of a jar if that jar was guarded by a half-dozen angry hornets? I know I wouldn't. Pain is a much greater deterrant than you give it credit for. You don't have to be able to wound a pred to make it let you be, just give it enough of a pause to go "...Is this really worth it?" All this is over a snack, not a vital, filling meal. Humans are a luxury, not a dietary staple.

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Predators are just as clever in their own way as adventurers, and actually know the terrain better (it is their territory, after all) so it is unlikely they would have much success if a giant pred found them

That depends on the territory, really. Knowing it doesn't mean a thing if humans hide where you can't get them. Any adventurers who make camp in the wide open are asking for it. You need to make your camp hidden, in a crevice, or in the roots of a tree. Some place where there are only a couple ways in, and it is very difficult for a pred to find you, much less get at you. If a predator has to reach her hand into a small space full of humans with guns...she's going to go find another meal.

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Also, I'm not talking about assault rifles. They may be cheap, in part because of the law of supply and demand, but the law of supply and demand is not going to cause people who sell weapons like rocket launchers to sell at a loss. It costs a lot more money to make an anti-tank weapon than it does to make a rifle. The manufacturers ould sell it at a profit to the middlemen, who would transport it to felarya and then sell it to the distributors/retailers at a profit, who would then try to sell it on to adventurers at a profit. This means that they are going to be expensive, irregardless of how cheap you can get a rifle for.

You can buy an RPG-7 for between $500 and $2000 dollars. That's less than some assault rifles. Simple anti-armor weapons like an RPG are not that hard to make, or really all that expensive (I mean, really, people in SOMALIA can afford them). Now, I DO think that the Magiocrats would probably make them illegal to buy, since Negav doesn't need a third of its population running around with rocket launchers...but its a huge trade hub, and between the low district, The Pit, or even brokers based in The Commons, it probably isn't all that hard to get some of the military-grade weapons that the Magiocrats prohibit the sale of.

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Finally, a lot of the worlds that Felarya connects to, stably or otherwise, would contain people who had never even heard of blackpowder.

...and you base this on what?

The only ways to make a dimensional portal are through magical means (which we know is extremely rare and extremely difficult), and technological means.

We have TWO known human factions that used technology to make dimensional gates, and none that used magic. Even the Ur-Sagolians didn't make the dimensional gate that lies within their city. Keep in mind, Negav is connecting with worlds to TRADE. Connecting to a world with nothing to offer is a waste of time. They need food (since they can't farm), they need raw materials that they cannot mine themselves, and they need technology. I don't see what a pre-black powder world could offer to trade. Maybe food? Negav trades with dozens of different worlds. Its quite likely that a bunch of them are decently advanced technologically, since they would be the most advantageous to trade with.

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And because the axe is silent

Hacking someone to death with a sharp piece of metal isn't silent. There's going to be screaming, yelling and the smell of blood in the air.

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Also, melee weapons (which require no ammo whatsoever) would be cheaper than guns and be lower maintenace,

...They don't just take care of themselves you know. Metal corrodes. You would need to oil and clean a sword just as much as a gun (well, depends on the gun. If you have a gun as durable as an AK, you can fill it full of mud and it'll keep on firing), if you didn't want it to deteriorate over time. Not to mention you would need to keep it sharp, and also, melee combat damages melee weapons. Swords bend and chip. Then you have to buy a new weapon altogether. With a gun, you just need to keep it clean, and buy more ammo.

EdgedWeapon wrote:

but the law of supply and demand is not going to cause people who sell weapons like rocket launchers to sell at a loss. It costs a lot more money to make an anti-tank weapon than it does to make a rifle.

Citation, please? I dispute that claim. It's a case-by-case basis.

EdgedWeapon wrote:

Not to mention Felarya is saturated with magic and magic-users, so maigic weapons would be a lot more common than you think. Not so common that everyone has one, but not as rare as they usually are. And common enough so that they are probably cheaper than a rocket launcher and the needed ammo.

Yes, but effective enchantment is tricky. I'd imagine mages would be marketing their services, too. So then the cost argument comes up again. Also, magic is common, but mastery of it is less so.

EdgedWeapon wrote:

And because the axe is silent, there would be far fewer preds who find him/her.

Cliff's already stated that melee weapons =/= silence.

EdgedWeapon wrote:

This means that they are going to be expensive, irregardless of how cheap you can get a rifle for.

Did you just say...?

Just a point I feel I should bring up, as melee/archaeic weapons is one of my specialties. Melee weapons are only silent in one situation, and one only.

Instantaneous stealth kills.

Any living thing capable of making noise that has been stabbed/slashed/clubbed is going to be making a lot of noise, obviously, and death-screams in a jungle is like a dinner bell for everything that happens to be carnivorous/omnivorous. The only time a melee fight is silent is if the person with the weapon kills their target in one shot, without the target ever seeing them. A slit throat, mace to the back of the head, decapitation, ect.

If the target is coming after you, then there will be a lot of noise as you fight it off.

Melee for stealth kills is silent. For fighting, not so much.

Ok, I've split the unplesantness off. Now, keep the discussion on topic, as that was the last of my generosity reguarding this.

Ok, but just to be clear, from a pred's perspective a human armed with any kind of serious weapon is like an insect with a stinger to us. A single bee certainly won't be able to kill you, but how willing are you to try grabbing it with your bare hands?

It stands to reason that preds would have so many opportunities to feed that they wouldn't be very well motivated to pursue armed humanoids, not if unarmed ones are readily available. Just to try and make a comparison, if you had to choose between eating spiny cactus leaves and ordinary fruit, which is the path of least resistance? You probably wouldn't even consider the cactus an option until you're completely out of fruit.

Once humanoids are armed with so much as a pointed stick they immediately become less attractive prey than wild animals. I imagine some preds may deliberately go for the challenge, but once they get their first taste of lightning spells or automatic gunfire they might have a change of heart. Worse yet, if any humanoid actually goes through the trouble of taking along deliberately made anti-pred gear then wild animals suddenly sound like a really great idea. I mean really, in a world like Felarya how long would it take for prey races to realize that preds are a threat and that they should design their gear to counter this particular threat? Call me crazy but that sounds like a decision that would practically be made overnight.

This is just my opinion and all, but it completely stands to reason that humanoids would deliberately produce and arm themselves with items like this: http://mickilla.deviantart.com/#/d4a4m8k as soon as they possibly could.

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I mean really, in a world like Felarya how long would it take for prey races to realize that preds are a threat and that they should design their gear to counter this particular threat? Call me crazy but that sounds like a decision that would practically be made overnight.

This is just my opinion and all, but it completely stands to reason that humanoids would deliberately produce and arm themselves with items like this: http://mickilla.deviantart.com/#/d4a4m8k as soon as they possibly could.

...a gun that no normal human could actually carry or fire? It takes a 2 or 3-man team to effectively use larger than .50cal rifles because of how cumbersome and heavy they are. Something like that is just ridiculous for anyone that actually wants to move around.

The fact is, giant hybrids are not everywhere. There isn't a naga sitting around every tree. Loading yourself down with anti-tank weaponry that you'll have to drag along with you for days or weeks at a time in the middle of a jungle is just not realistic. Stealth and knowledge are your best tools in the wilderness, not a gun the size of a small car. If a pred is able to sneak up on you, no weapon you have will be helpful. Those types of heavy, military-grade weapons require time to set up and aim, so if you get snuck up on, you're doomed. Even the Isolon Fist (in my interpreation) don't go anywhere without aerial scouts to keep tabs on the wilderness around them.

The best thing adventurers could do is pack essential items and supplies, and bring along some rifles for hunting (if they run out of supplies) and self defens against small-to-medium sized animals. That lets you keep mobile and flexible. Your best bet to survive is to keep alert, and find a good hiding spot to escape from bigger animals and giant hybrids. Humans are small, that is just as much an advantage as it is a disadvantage, if you know how to use it.

Well, the key here is moderation. Mick has a point in that humans with weapons become less desirable, whether the prey be sentient or not. Most of them instinctually won't go through the trouble unless they're really hungry. However, keep in mind that, normally, when you get stung, you swat the bee regardless, so if you just resort to weaponry, the predator may just swat at you to prevent future stings. Pick and choose your battles.

Cliff also has a point, in that the smaller weapons are more effective since they take less time to set up.

Pendragon wrote:

Well, the key here is moderation. Mick has a point in that humans with weapons become less desirable, whether the prey be sentient or not. Most of them instinctually won't go through the trouble unless they're really hungry. However, keep in mind that, normally, when you get stung, you swat the bee regardless, so if you just resort to weaponry, the predator may just swat at you to prevent future stings. Pick and choose your battles.

Cliff also has a point, in that the smaller weapons are more effective since they take less time to set up.

Its also about logistics too.

Making a high-quality, large-caliber rifle is expensive and very time consuming. It requires a master gunsmith.

Training someone to use a long-range, large-caliber rifle can take years to get them proficient at it.

If you need to carry around an anti-take weapon, I just think you're better off with a rocket launcher. Something simple like the RPG is fairly easy to make, much lighter than that rifle would be, and much easier to train people to use. Also has less parts and would have less maintenance issues from being out in the jungle for extended periods of time.

That may well be, but this is a fantasy world after all. We can stand to indulge a little silliness when it seems cool at the time.