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 The conflict, final resolution

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Karbo
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Jul 21, 2011 3:37 pm

Prof.Nekko wrote:
Karbo wrote:
I don't see not respecting the cannon as some sort of grave offense.
Case in point if the canon just gets completely disregarded we will soon find stories that mar the eyes of all who read it. Tales of the Daughter of Crisis and Subeta who can kick any guardian's ass with a twitch of her wrist and fires nuclear missiles from her Labia... in short a place of anarchy and insanity, much like the 1960s.

XD
Well I get what you mean, indeed that's a question of balance.
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Jul 21, 2011 3:47 pm

Everyone knows that some respect to the canon should be paid. OK, some of us might have been a bit too strict with the canon and the wiki, to the point some have been called obsessed with them. But truth to be told, some of us just want to respect Karbo's work and effort. After all, this is his world, his setting and even though there is some fan contribution to it, we have to take in account that this isn't ours at all and so the original author deserves some respect...

... But it's also a matter of common sense from us fans. Razz

Yes, things aren't fixed, and rules can be bent and even broken... but with care.
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Jul 21, 2011 3:53 pm

Well, since we're talking about the forum...

This is just an idea: I am for that karbo asks once and for all people that havent accepted the ehm..disclaimer. Seriously, it's a wiki. For me, it should always be free to use and I' just tired to see that I cannot use an idea because an author didn't accept the disclaimer. If he didn't accept the disclaimer, fine, but don't let those ideas there where we cant use them. I know a lot will tell me this : "Gnuh! Just ask them you idiot!" Yeah, okay, fine. I once asked F-S to use his character Hlaani in one of my stories. Is Hlaani in the wiki? Nop. But I still asked. Things that are in the wiki shouldn't be something that we ask the author for. Yeah, credit the author of the idea in your author's comment, but like I said, the felarya wiki for me is like an encyclopedia and should be free to use. But a line should be drawn here. If you want to DEVELOP, BRING THE IDEA FURTHER THAN IT IS, then yes, ask the author.

And it's not like new ideas cannot be brought to the forum. We can erase them and write over them.

like I said...an idea.
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Jul 21, 2011 4:27 pm

Well characters, you have to ask the original author, no matter what. That's common courtesy.
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Jul 21, 2011 4:35 pm

well yeah characters always been a different thing and I have no prob with it...so it's just my example that does not fit. but I hope the message is still clear :/
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Jul 21, 2011 5:17 pm

Why must all these important conversations occur while I am out making money?

Karbo, what I had been proposing when I said "community project" wasn't so much having an oligarchy take the reins, but rather to be open to those who have shown some proclivity for wisdom and good decisions. A little like your idea of "project open to community", as long as it is acknowledged that people have vastly helped things along.

Feadraug wrote:
But truth to be told, some of us just want to respect Karbo's work and effort. After all, this is his world, his setting and even though there is some fan contribution to it, we have to take in account that this isn't ours at all and so the original author deserves some respect
This, this, SO MUCH THIS. The author, as well as everyone who has helped him. It's about respect. Felarya isn't some tool for self-aggrandizement, as some people have used it as.
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Jul 21, 2011 6:50 pm

Krisexy26 wrote:
Well, since we're talking about the forum...
And then good ideas


This honestly doesn't sound like a bad idea, at least to some extent. I was thinking similar thoughts for several problems. Although I'm not sure if they are problems at all... Anyway.

Ahem. This is the 'contract'
Karbo wrote:
We need a disclaimer because everything in the wiki needs to be usable by the community and myself without fear of legal complications. It is a regrettable necessity, but a necessity none the less; the disclaimer is in place to protect the members of this community as well as myself.

*Contributions of new ideas to Felarya are always welcome, however their author must agree with the present disclaimer. If you don't agree with it, please do not submit your work to be made canon, it's really as simple as that.
By submitting your ideas for canonization (and inclusion in the Felarya wiki), you accept that, if it is retained, you are hereby giving up ownership of the idea. You will be credited with the idea in the wiki and anyone that uses your idea in any of their works is fully expected to give you some amount of credit. They are also expected to contact you about your idea and ask for permission, and if their implementation of your idea is not to your liking, you can tell them how they can change it. You cannot, however, refuse them the right to use it.

*If your idea(s) made it into the Felarya wiki before November 15th, 2009 and you objected to the disclaimer, your work(s) will still be canon, but marked accordingly, appearing in red in the wiki to make it known that the idea is still yours.
You must be aware however, that it means I will be a bit reluctant to build things on it, use it in my work, or mention it in another idea, as the future and very existence of the idea(s) essentially lies in your hands...

*Characters are a special case here and will always belong to their creators, unless the creator specifies otherwise. Characters that are to be used in canonized stories (manga tomes, etc.) will be handled on a case by case basis, with the permission of their creator. It is understood, though, that once a character is in the Felarya wiki that you will not be able to have it removed, although you could prevent it from ever being used again.

Now, looking at this and at the different forums I can note two things. First, if you are giving up ownership of the idea to Felarya, then you should receive credit. People shouldn't be expected to have to request permission, IF YOU'VE GIVEN UP OWNERSHIP. If you have not given up ownership then yes. Should they give you credit? They should, it would be nice to. But not a requirement. At the very least, crediting the wiki will by extension credit the original idea maker.

Now. This changes with characters. Characters are a much more personal thing than say, a Drakewillow Tree. Permission should always be found for characters. In fact, the characters will be more realistic if you contact the author and they are willing to help describe how they'd react in your story.

I think I said I can note two things. I've forgotten the second...




Oh yeah! The forums. It should be made CLEAR that if you post an idea on the forum, you are automatically acquiescing to the above terms. Should the idea be included as canon the fact that you posted it HERE means you agree. Make it clear that this is the case. Another thing while you are telling posters this; Tell them that by posting here they are accepting any and all criticisms. This does not give people the right to be rude of course, but at least let them know that this is the purpose of the ideas forums. To introduce and refine ideas until they are accepted by the community as good. From there, Karbo can look at the refined idea and make a decision. In this way, Felarya can grow richer.


Did all that make sense?
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Jul 21, 2011 8:12 pm

To be honest I've always thought this, but some people have said that it's not "quite" the case, and I wasn't quite sure who was right. However, what you said does make the most sense, and it makes me confused when people say they don't post ideas with the goal of them being canonized. You can post it just for fun of course, but I'm talking about a serious Felarya idea. One meant to flesh out the world. Making it a goal to get your ideas featured in the wiki doesn't also mean that you cant have fun with it. On the contrary, you should have as much fun as you can making ideas. I know i do ^^
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Jul 21, 2011 8:40 pm

Well, I'll just whip out this. It's something that I wrote a little while ago. There's supposed to be a follow up paper on why the disclaimer needs to be changed, but I haven't got around to it yet.


The disclaimer has been a topic of minor debate in the past.

The topic of this paper is about the apparent effects of the disclaimer on the community. The disclaimer has two main stated effects;
Agreeing to the disclaimer voids the creator's ownership of the idea. This is very visible, most if not all contributors agree to the disclaimer when it comes to their recent ideas.
The second, invisible part is the concern of this paper. Contributors are told they can expect credit when their idea is used. This is something only intermittently seen, most of the time people simply credit Karbo with Felarya and their characters to themselves.

What's even rarer is the asking of permission. This is a contradiction in the disclaimer, as it states that users are expected to ask permission. This implies that the contributor has a choice but this choice only has one answer, according to the disclaimer.
This wording is misleading, it almost gives the illusion that, once disclaimed, the contributor still has some level of control over their idea. They don't.
What they do have is the expectation of credit where the idea is used and what really amounts to simple notification on the fact that the idea is being used.
Neither of these things are made apparent to anyone other than those who have already agreed to the disclaimer.

The wording of the disclaimer is a minor problem; the main problem is that the disclaimer is practically invisible. Anywhere it is linked, it is either not explained or accompanied by a statement about how anyone wanting to contribute ideas to the wiki needs to agree to it.

Anyone who hasn't had to agree to the disclaimer at some point is unlikely to have read it, simply because there is no apparent need. The disclaimer is always stated as something that contributors have to read, not people merely using ideas from the wiki.
This is the crux of the issue; the disclaimer states that there are things contributors can expect, but there is nothing in place to ensure or at least increase the likelihood of contributors receiving the things they are told they can expect.

This has the effect of making the disclaimer an entirely one way thing; contributors give up ideas and get nothing in return.
This is obviously not right, but the question of "why do people agree to the disclaimer if it's one way?" exists. If they want to do it, it's their right to give up their ideas, but they are still agreeing to something. An invisible something.
People don't think about agreeing to the disclaimer because it's "invisible." It's never enforced, never referenced. People tend to ignore or disbelieve things that are invisible. Agreeing to something that has no visible effect is easy, so people do it without really realising what they're doing.

In addition, there is a link to the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 licence.
This licence, while good, does not contain many of the terms included in the disclaimer. There is nothing in place to ensure that people who read the wiki and use the things contained in it will "ask permission" from the creators. There is nothing to indicate to people that may want to use the idea that they are supposed to ask permission. There's nothing to indicate that people who's ideas are in the wiki did indeed agree to the disclaimer that has a clause allowing them, the creator, to specify the correct way to use their idea.
Although highly undesirable, having people agree to something in which certain rights are promised and then not putting in measures to ensure those rights are observed is not illegal. It is just misleading and untrustworthy.

Indeed, this in conjunction with the lack of in context attribution of creators in the wiki has lead to a situation where the creators of ideas are uncredited and unknown by readers and users of the wiki.
Furthermore, this leads to the most undesirable circumstance in which creators who are exercising their right to specify how their idea should be used are viewed in a negative light by the user of their idea, simply because the user has no idea that the person addressing created that idea and is wondering who this person is and what gave them the right to speak about the idea that is being used.

Where legality breaks down is in the use of ideas. Many Felarya stories on deviantART simply state that Felarya belongs to Karbo; nothing more.
Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 licence has three main clauses, but this paper will only focus on one:
Attribution is the first clause and arguable the simplest one. Wherever an idea from the wiki is used, the idea must be attributed to its creator. Unfortunately, this does not happen. The only things to be attributed are characters other than the author's own and Felarya, which is attributed to Karbo. The often used Kensha beast is uncredited almost everywhere it is used in a story. This is against the licence.


We don't so much need a disclaimer as a licence.
The creative commons is a base. We are free to make our own and it will still be legal.

For example; Sourcemod uses the GNU General Public license v3 as a base for their actual license.


Last edited by Anime-Junkie on Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:29 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Grammar & stuff.)
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Jul 21, 2011 9:56 pm

AJ, your words are as wise as I have come to expect them to be. However, as you advised, I shall don my hair gel and attorney's badge, and lawyer up.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Contributors are told they can expect credit when their idea is used. This is something only intermittently seen, most of the time people simply credit Karbo with Felarya and their characters to themselves.
This is a touchy subject. How does one even enforce something like this? There is no way to ensure that ideas are credited to their creator. Informing offenders of their transgression may work in a few cases, but that's only a bandage on a running wound.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
What's even rarer is the asking of permission. This is a contradiction in the disclaimer, as it states that users are expected to ask permission. This implies that the contributor has a choice but this choice only has one answer, according to the disclaimer.
Once again, the problem is the inability to enforce it. You can wave a document around and claim its words are law, but without teeth, it is pointless. Though it may not be said directly, any contributor should expect to have their own work folded into the greater concept of Felarya as a whole, with their own efforts marginalized. I do believe that, at the very least, the disclaimer states that anyone whose ideas are accepted into the wiki gives up ownership. This means that though users are expected to ask permission, they are not required to. This means that, disagreeable as it may be to some, the contradiction you have pointed out really isn't a contradiction at all. You can tell them how to change it, but the ideas contained within the wiki are open-source: you can't do anything to preserve your creations. That's the difference between a "community project" and a "project open to the community". Users are expected to give your idea the warranted respect, but ultimately have the ability to use it in any way they choose.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
This has the effect of making the disclaimer an entirely one way thing; contributors give up ideas and get nothing in return.
I refer you back to my earlier statement about a community project and its less-moderated counterpart.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
There is nothing in place to ensure that people who read the wiki and use the things contained in it will "ask permission" from the creators. There is nothing to indicate to people that may want to use the idea that they are supposed to ask permission. There's nothing to indicate that people who's ideas are in the wiki did indeed agree to the disclaimer that has a clause allowing them, the creator, to specify the correct way to use their idea.
This is simply because there's no possible way to enforce it without involving legal documentation and actual lawyers (as opposed to people who have played Ace Attorney). The closest thing would be to inform offenders, but that can have negative effects. I shall now elaborate.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Furthermore, this leads to the most undesirable circumstance in which creators who are exercising their right to specify how their idea should be used are viewed in a negative light by the user of their idea, simply because the user has no idea that the person addressing created that idea and is wondering who this person is and what gave them the right to speak about the idea that is being used.
Where does "specifying" end, and "gatekeeping" begin? There's a line between assuring that justice is done to a creator's rights, and imposing your opinions upon another. The fineness of said line is a point of contention.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Many Felarya stories on deviantART simply state that Felarya belongs to Karbo; nothing more.
They are fully within their rights to do this. That is the problem. There's a clear difference between giving up legal ownership, and giving up artistic control. That needs to be rectified. I would imagine that if the disclaimer were clarified to the effect of stating that any agreement signified the complete abandonment of artistic control to people beyond Karbo, many people would grimly review their past acceptance of the terms.
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Jul 22, 2011 5:55 am

Well I'm not a lawyer. I wrote this thing to the best of my knowledge and on what I thought was the most realistic and practical approach.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

There's a clear difference between giving up legal ownership, and giving up artistic control. That needs to be rectified. .

Well I'm sorry but it's very much a question of giving up legal ownership as well. I don't want any legal condendrum regarding the usage of the content of the wiki, now or in the future, and when a person submit an idea to be integrated, they are, indeed, relinquishing fully legal ownership of it.
I made the disclaimer clear enough on that fact I think :

Disclaimer wrote:

By submitting your ideas for canonization (and inclusion in the Felarya wiki), you accept that, if it is retained, you are hereby giving up ownership of the idea.

But if it is not and that "many people grimly review their past acceptance of the terms" like you put it, well my door is open regarding any contestation. I don't want to retain ideas where the author disagree with the term of the deal or feel cheated by it. And I'm not forcing anyone to accept it... Sorry if I sound a little blunt, but my stance on that is again clear :

Disclaimer wrote:
If you don't agree with it, please do not submit your work to be made canon, it's really as simple as that..

Krisexy26 wrote:
Well, since we're talking about the forum...
This is just an idea: I am for that karbo asks once and for all people that havent accepted the ehm..disclaimer. Seriously, it's a wiki. For me, it should always be free to use and I' just tired to see that I cannot use an idea because an author didn't accept the disclaimer. If he didn't accept the disclaimer, fine, but don't let those ideas there where we cant use them. I know a lot will tell me this : "Gnuh! Just ask them you idiot!" Yeah, okay, fine. I once asked F-S to use his character Hlaani in one of my stories. Is Hlaani in the wiki? Nop. But I still asked. Things that are in the wiki shouldn't be something that we ask the author for. Yeah, credit the author of the idea in your author's comment, but like I said, the felarya wiki for me is like an encyclopedia and should be free to use. But a line should be drawn here. If you want to DEVELOP, BRING THE IDEA FURTHER THAN IT IS, then yes, ask the author.

And it's not like new ideas cannot be brought to the forum. We can erase them and write over them.

like I said...an idea.


Well that's a difficult subject... but it's a good point and it will probably need to be adressed as well at some point..


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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Jul 22, 2011 7:37 am

Karbo wrote:
Well I'm not a lawyer. I wrote this thing to the best of my knowledge and on what I thought was the most realistic and practical approach.
Neither am I. I just play one when the hair gel is in. (In case it's not clear, I'm making a joke alluding to the idea that I'm mimicking Phoenix Wright, a character from a video game in which you play as a lawyer.)

Karbo wrote:
Well I'm sorry but it's very much a question of giving up legal ownership as well. I don't want any legal condendrum regarding the usage of the content of the wiki, now or in the future, and when a person submit an idea to be integrated, they are, indeed, relinquishing fully legal ownership of it.
That part is actually quite clear. I don't think anyone's considering a lawsuit. I mean, even I'm not taking this that seriously. What isn't clear is how much artistic control a creator retains after ownership is given to you. They trust that you will use it properly, and will listen to them if they have any complaints. This cannot be said of everyone else. I think the main problem is that when agreeing to the disclaimer, most people are agreeing that you may use their ideas however you see fit, and they expect to be consulted by you when using them, and they also expect to be consulted by everyone else. While it may be impossible to enforce, it would not be a bad thing to remind writers and artists, on both the forum and on dA, that it's incredibly rude to not consult, or at least credit, the original creator when using an idea. At the very least, they should link to the wiki, which contains credit to the creators.

Karbo wrote:
But if it is not and that "many people grimly review their past acceptance of the terms" like you put it, well my door is open regarding any contestation.
At the risk of sounding like a jerk, I have to ask: how open is it? I only bring this up because I feel we're all at a point where we can address things like adults and not resort to overdone drama to cover all our deficiencies. You're a pleasant enough person the majority of the time, but... you don't seem to react well when someone disagrees with how you've done something. I can understand that. I'm not really all that different. Some things are perceived as being more sinister than they were really intended. You can't be blamed for perceiving something in a certain way, but that's why we all need to state our points of view and come to a mutual understanding.

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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Jul 22, 2011 3:09 pm

Regarding poor qualitity ideas and stories, and criticism thereof, I suppose I can see both sides of the argument.

On the one hand, Karbo's position is that everyone is free to enjoy Felarya in their own way, including in poorly written fanfic with little regard for canon. I understand and support that position, much as such fanfic may quietly irritate me, as I'm sure it does most of us. After all, we can simply ignore such "contributions", and let their creators get on with their own thing in their own way.

On the other hand, when people bring ideas to the forum, they should indeed expect an honest critical review, rather than merely praise. In the past, there were problems with people being downright unpleasant in their criticism, as well as with people refusing to take any constructive criticism. From what I've seen, criticism now mostly seems to be polite and helplful. As long as everyone respects the forum rules and remains civil and friendly, I don't see why there should be any problems.

Just my tired remarks in passing before I crash out to sleep...
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Jul 23, 2011 3:20 am

Well, I have always been a proponent of mutual respect here. And yes, what I have seen over the years is wildly various. The thing of it is, some people can't seem to offer a negative criticism without trashing the author/artist (And yes, I have seen that over the years), that said, sometimes some cannot tell the difference bitween negative criticism and trashing either, and I have seen that quite a bit too. Thus, certain flame tirades can be generated by both sides of the fence.

And that is why I plan on enforcing mutual respect to the best of my abilities to do so. It's not a matter of personal oppinion, nor is it about any exemptions to the rules, I simply have zero tolerance of anyone shirking the rules as they see fit. There IS NO exemption to breaking the rules as far as I'm concerned, and maybe that stemms from my experience in debating forums and making sure the reigns are tight on rule enforcement, but yeah, I beleive in free speech - but I also beleive in the responsability of using the right of free speech reasonably, people can say whatever they wish and get their points across without becoming offensive.

Of course, different perceptions of what constitutes as offensive is open to enterpretation is also an issue, and thats when a Moderator or Administrator must make a judgement call. After all, Mods are only human too, and we can be mistaken at times. That certainly is no license to go on a tirade, and I encourage members who disagree with a Mod decision to PM that mod, or get a 2nd oppinion from another Mod. it's not a big ask really to keep the unplesantness off the forums, and you may find we are more open than you may think.


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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Jul 23, 2011 1:06 pm

ZionAtriedes wrote:

That part is actually quite clear. I don't think anyone's considering a lawsuit. I mean, even I'm not taking this that seriously. What isn't clear is how much artistic control a creator retains after ownership is given to you. They trust that you will use it properly, and will listen to them if they have any complaints. This cannot be said of everyone else. I think the main problem is that when agreeing to the disclaimer, most people are agreeing that you may use their ideas however you see fit, and they expect to be consulted by you when using them, and they also expect to be consulted by everyone else. While it may be impossible to enforce, it would not be a bad thing to remind writers and artists, on both the forum and on dA, that it's incredibly rude to not consult, or at least credit, the original creator when using an idea. At the very least, they should link to the wiki, which contains credit to the creators.

Well if a person relinquish ownership of an idea, it clearly means they no longer have control on it.. this means I can do what I see fit with it freely. Having said that, this is not how I do things and I'm never going to make any important modifications on an idea without consulting the author first. this happened several times and it always went smoothly, the author being happy to see their contribution updated in order to better fit the rest of the world. I rarely change a lot anything anyway, except for some occasional rephrasing here and there.
And like the disclaimer says : people using the idea in their work are *expected* to give credits and consult the author about it. I put "expected" here because realistically you can't force people to do that as a pre-requisite. but it's elementary politeness to do so indeed. And a journal to remind about it would be a good idea, yeah.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, I have to ask: how open is it? I only bring this up because I feel we're all at a point where we can address things like adults and not resort to overdone drama to cover all our deficiencies. You're a pleasant enough person the majority of the time, but... you don't seem to react well when someone disagrees with how you've done something. I can understand that. I'm not really all that different. Some things are perceived as being more sinister than they were really intended. You can't be blamed for perceiving something in a certain way, but that's why we all need to state our points of view and come to a mutual understanding.

Well I can go along just fine with people disagreeing with me. I'm really far from seeing myself as somebody infaillible and I'am well aware of my shortcomings. The only thing is I don't react well to being either pushed, bossed around or pressured into doing something and it usually backfire a lot with me. When I say my door is open, I mean that if a person who contributed ideas to this world read this current thread and suddenly realize that no, this is no how they understood it and they are now disagreeing about relinquishing legal ownership ( as opposed to creative control ) on the idea, they can contact me and I'll take it down... Because this time I really really want the term of the deal to be totally clear for everybody, to not have any more problem happening later. no problem based on that at least...
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ZionAtriedes
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Jul 23, 2011 4:50 pm

Karbo wrote:
Well if a person relinquish ownership of an idea, it clearly means they no longer have control on it..
As AJ told me: it's best to be completely clear. Some may think that they do retain some rights, if not ownership.

Karbo wrote:
this means I can do what I see fit with it freely. Having said that, this is not how I do things and I'm never going to make any important modifications on an idea without consulting the author first. this happened several times and it always went smoothly, the author being happy to see their contribution updated in order to better fit the rest of the world. I rarely change a lot anything anyway, except for some occasional rephrasing here and there.
Of course. I never claimed you used ideas inappropriately. In fact, I said that most authors do trust your judgment with their ideas, and trust that you'll be courteous enough to consult them. As far as I know, that has been true. I do, however, wish that could be said of everyone.

Karbo wrote:
And like the disclaimer says : people using the idea in their work are *expected* to give credits and consult the author about it. I put "expected" here because realistically you can't force people to do that as a pre-requisite. but it's elementary politeness to do so indeed. And a journal to remind about it would be a good idea, yeah.
It is assuring to see we have come to some form of agreement. Of course this can't be enforced, but I'm betting that most people aren't even aware that they're doing anything that may offend someone. Letting them know may solve a few problems. It's worth a try.


Karbo wrote:
Well I can go along just fine with people disagreeing with me.
Then you're doing better than I am! (Joking.)

Karbo wrote:
The only thing is I don't react well to being either pushed, bossed around or pressured into doing something and it usually backfire a lot with me.
I'm sure the same can be said of most people. I think the problem is all in perception. One person may mean to be courteous, but because they may have messed up somewhere, it's seen as being pushy or pressuring. This can cause a lot of discontent where no offense was meant. That's the problem with text: although it gives someone the time to read a person's post and understand it clearly, it is much less personal and doesn't carry a tone.

Darkstorm Zero wrote:
I simply have zero tolerance of anyone shirking the rules as they see fit.
DARKSTORM ZERO TOLERANCE: RENEGADE LOOSE-CANNON MOD.
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PrinnyDood
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 25, 2011 2:40 am

Well, I have to admit, much of the goings-on around here recently had left me feeling rather disillusioned and depressed, feeling like I ought to do something to help, but being terrible at conflict resolution... I've always felt kinda distant from the community on the forum, so I suppose it shouldn't come as a surprise, but I never could really figure out exactly what everyone was fighting about in these various drama outbursts.

I'm still not 100% sure, but this latest development has me feeling a great deal of optimism and other such related emotions. I kinda wish I hadn't been up to my eyebrows in real life stuff for this, but knowing me I'd probably have screwed it up somehow. Razz

As far as actually contributing to this discussion goes:

Karbo wrote:

Anime-Junkie wrote:
That aside; I have a suggestion. I'm not sure if it's good but it might help some things or it might not.
My suggestion is that characters are not to be included in the Felarya wiki. This prevents people aspiring to get their characters in there.
Characters are already a unique case in the Wiki. Permission can be denied for the use of characters. They're not disclaimed like other things are.

well this is very... drastic. I'm not really sure it is feasible at all to be honest, or that it wouldn't create more problems in the end ^^;
I can see the merit of the idea though, as it would remove a good deal of the jealousy some people can feel.. but I'm afraid that would also make the world less rich and lively as a result, the connexion between characters being harder to keep track of..
I have to admit I've often wondered if 'wiki-ing' (non-Karbo) characters was a good idea. Perhaps it stems from the fact I've always felt kinda guilty because I 'cheated' one in via the writing contest, and never felt like I truly 'deserved' it, mine sitting there next to all those other, far more interesting & better developed characters... But I also agree that just taking them all down would be rather drastic and kinda sad. Maybe a compromise of sorts, like a separate section for non-Karbo characters? Might help reduce the inevitable 'character-clutter' issue that threatens to happen as more and more get added. Like a 'cannon' character section, and then a subsection, for outstanding 'third-party' created characters.

I dunno, now that I've typed it out, it sounds like it might just make things more confusing rather than help, and I'm honestly terrible at this sort of thing... scratch

In any case, after reading through all this productive discussion and whatnot, I'm feeling rather upbeat and inspired about the setting in general. Smile
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Pendragon
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 25, 2011 9:36 am

So we're all hunky-dory now?

I just hope we can put the fighting behind us and work on some solutions to the current problems mentioned.

I don't have much to add, but I just wanted to voice my presence in this. Sad
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Feadraug
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 25, 2011 10:27 am

Well, we need to put ourselves together and keep working on this to improve everything. The community won't get better if we don't move. Razz

PrinnyDood wrote:
I have to admit I've often wondered if 'wiki-ing' (non-Karbo) characters was a good idea. Perhaps it stems from the fact I've always felt kinda guilty because I 'cheated' one in via the writing contest, and never felt like I truly 'deserved' it, mine sitting there next to all those other, far more interesting & better developed characters... But I also agree that just taking them all down would be rather drastic and kinda sad. Maybe a compromise of sorts, like a separate section for non-Karbo characters? Might help reduce the inevitable 'character-clutter' issue that threatens to happen as more and more get added. Like a 'cannon' character section, and then a subsection, for outstanding 'third-party' created characters.

But why do you feel you 'cheated' or that your character doesn't deserve being canon? Anyway, a character can be or not canon, but the most important thing is that it isn't just a bunch of information, but something - or someone - that feels alive. That's what I like from many characters and what I like from mine: they won't be the best out there, but I put enough effort to make them 'alive'.

Wikified or not, that doesn't matter to me. Which leads to the next thing...

Felarya is Karbo's project, but he lets people to play with it and even to contribute with information to expand the world. Characters are just some of that info, and creators will always be credited. The fact is that we need to make clear that being wikified isn't the goal for any contributor to the setting, this isn't a competition nor people should feel like "Karbo ignores me because he isn't including my stuff in the wiki".

It's having fun, enriching the world with new ideas, be it flora, fauna, sentient species, locations, characters... for me, it doesn't matter if they get to the wiki or not, there are many interesting things out in the forum and the DA group that are great and aren't in the wiki.

We just need to get the message clear and straight: have fun and respect, this is no competition.
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Aug 16, 2011 4:52 pm

You know, I've been waiting and anticipating for when we will get around to solving it. Now that this happened, and I find out like 3 weeks after, it's very frustrating that I couldn't be there to talk it out as well. I know I was certainly very nervous, and I saw that potentiality happening back in February. Kinda makes me wonder if I couldn't have helped in some way. Well here I am now at least, but even though Karbo's on vacation he knows I've always offered to help.

With that, I have a class to go to, so I will see you guys later.
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FalconJudge
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 24, 2011 6:00 pm

Yay! The forum's coming back together!
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dlausactor6373
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 24, 2011 7:11 pm

I was afraid we were going to have to resort to Exterminatus.
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Axel Hunter
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 26, 2011 10:45 am

and for those of us who still arent accepted by this world? what happens then?
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Stabs
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 26, 2011 12:31 pm

Axel Hunter wrote:
and for those of us who still arent accepted by this world? what happens then?

Hopefully, it'll be our only problem from now on.
Over time, we can fix it too.
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ZionAtriedes
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PostSubject: Re: The conflict, final resolution   The conflict, final resolution - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Aug 27, 2011 7:59 pm

Axel Hunter wrote:
and for those of us who still arent accepted by this world? what happens then?
You adjust, and drop the victim act. It's old, and it's pissing me off.

Really, you can't ask everyone to agree with everything. Well, you can't outside of deviantART, anyways. That doesn't mean you're "not accepted", it just means that people don't think your ideas are thought-out enough or original enough. Do they have final say? No, but if you post it publicly, you're asking for feedback. Just because it isn't good, that doesn't give you an excuse to start dragging a cross down the street and act like some pariah. Please, it makes actual pariahs like myself look whiny.

-ZA, CP.
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