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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:02 pm

I'll leave up to the mods to decide whether or not the thread needs to be merged or moved or whatever. I'm not fussed, I just want to get this sorted out. :p

Obviously, having quite a considerable percentage of my work having been based underwater and using these various locations and species, I'll admit to being biased with my opinion on this - much as I write more for fun than anything else, I do like adhering closely to canon, and if I've been doing it wrong the whole time, then that's the canonicity of half my work gone neatly down the gutter. Which isn't much fun at all, as it'll mean I'll be unable to continue with a lot of the things I've started. (I could just do it and call it non-canon, I know, but to me, that knowledge would put a neat stopper in any progression.)

However, even if I'd never written a single story, I'd still say the same thing.

I do understand where you're coming form on this, and what you're saying about communication barriers being interesting to write about - that was exactly the reason I brought up the demi-chimera, as I figured a species which can't communicate as well as (I thought) all the others could, would be a nice difference to the norm. But having the norm underwater be, by default, to have at least limited if not complete barriers between species? As a writer I'd say that was too restricting, and just in terms of Felarya as a whole. To me, it doesn't seem to fit.

From the impression I got from reading about it, the implications of a city such as Ryzelm'oire - where we have what is specifically stated to be a great variety of species not only gathered together, but trading with one another, actually getting employed as servants and guards and various other things by the chlaena, and clearly communicating well enough in order to do so, suggests that there must be a method of communication that works down there as actual speech would, rather than just to the extent that sign language/teaching of very basic sounds/colour changes ect. I just can't see it being as well-developed, complex, and multi-racial a place as it is, if everyone is in fact going around trying desperately hard to make themselves understood.

And that includes mermaids to one another, if mersong only transmits basic messages? If merfolk had to surface in order to actually hold a conversation, that would make life very difficult for those living at any depth. And when you consider how bizarre the chlaena mindset is when compared with many others... communicating them poses plenty problems and interesting aspects to explore even without communication barriers. It just seems pointless to add in a problem just for the sake of that one point of interest, when it would cancel out many others. To me, it's less of a "cop-out," without, and more of an unnecessary hindrance with.

Although my opinion isn't all that relevant if the translation system only being applied to speech is already solid canon. Where does it say this, on the wiki, by the way? I want to know how I managed to overlook it so badly. :/
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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Well it doesn't matter anyway since writers are still going to write dialogue just to show what they're saying. Think about it, although Chlaenae are not technically speaking, it's way more convenient to write the message she's conveying, rather than describe every tentacle sign and color change, which would only serve to puzzle the readers trying to piece together what it's trying to say. Same with the songs, although they're not using human words per se, for the sake of narrative convenience, we write it as if it was.
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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:45 pm

Well, it appears we are in a conundrum here.

Personally, I find the idea of an underwater city to be fairly silly. There's no need for it. By nature, undersea predators are much more nomadic than land-based ones, and have much larger territories. Some species are going to stick to a particular reef, or region...but the idea of an actual underwater city just seems a bit far-fetched to me.

Now, if its only a human-sized city...that could be more believable. Smaller undersea species are going to band together for safety. A city of giant preds though? Nope. That can't really work. It's only happened once on land and even that was only because Sineria nearly rivaled the guardians in power.

Who thought that up anyway? Is it a relic from old-Felarya that was just not thought out that well before being added?

As for communication, I looked at my old post and the wiki. Mer-song is very complex. They could hold a conversation with it. I will concede hat chlaena color changing probably could too. But I still don't think non-mermaids and non-chlaenas should be able to have either of them auto-translated.

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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:01 pm

That was a collab with Zoekin, QuantumMechanic, Shaman, Fish and Xeno the Hedgehog. Well, technically the wiki credits them together only on the Chlaena page, but the Ryzelm'oire entry appeared pretty much at the same time (I think), so I'm counting it.
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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:05 pm

rcs619 wrote:
Who thought that up anyway? Is it a relic from old-Felarya

Implying there is such a thing as "old-Felarya"
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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:47 pm

I wouldn't worry too much about it Glob, for mer-song the reason you can't recall reading it is because it isn't on the wiki... The entry on the wiki simply states that any audible language is translated:

Quote :
It allows intelligent beings in Felarya to understand the speech of others as if they were speaking their own language. It's a strange impression : you hear that your interlocutor talk to you in a different language but, somehow, those foreign words make perfect sense.

The entry for mer-song says:
Quote :
When underwater, mermaids "sing" their messages in a special language whose pitches and tones aren't distorted by water, allowing communication. It sounds a bit like whale song but more modulated and of a higher pitch, although it also depends on the individual mermaid who sings it. Of course, that language doesn't work above the water. Those songs appear to be just as rich and complex as regular language, with differences in pitch, tone, tempo, structure helping to convey different, intricate meanings.

Purely by reading this, one understands that if one can properly hear mer-song it will be translated. That's why literally everyone who's ever written a story with a mermaid speaking to another species in it has understood it as you and I and AJ have. One could argue that the ears of land-based creatures may not be able pick up the sounds that mermaids make because they are not made to function underwater though... But as Sean rightly pointed out it's rather a non-issue.

I also agree with you that having all the different water dwelling species not be able to understand one another without having surface, start miming or learning some form of universal sign-language is an unnecessary hindrance. I find it doesn't mesh well with Felarya, it clashes too much with the surface world and with a lot of information on the wiki as well. Take Ichty's for example:

In the entry for Ichtys:
Quote :
The only kind of predator that doesn't hunt them are giant mermaids and merfolk, as a particular bond has existed between the two races for centuries. Ichthys are very caring and often watch over young mermaids, protecting them from the dangers of the sea until they can stand their ground, thus forging solid friendships on the way.

They would kinda make bad baby sitters if they couldn't understand what the mermaids were saying, no?

There are also many underwater races who have no special way of communicating underwater; Ichtys are one of them, but there's also Actiniaes, (Who also deal with mermaids a lot) Sea-slug girls and others... At some point one has to fill in the blanks and hand-wave a lot to write a story set in a fantasy or sci-fi setting where you want different races communicate with each other. For Felarya, we have the translation spell, in other settings they have equally impossible translator devices or other such hand-waves. It's not a big deal, and I wouldn't put my stories on hold for this.

This brings us to Chlaenas though, and this is where the wiki is pretty much clear cut on the issue: The translation spell doesn't work for their method of communication, period. It isn't audible so basically it's just like a complex for of sign language. This can easily be worked around in a number of ways, however. One could conceivably learn the language from a Chlaena friend, and maybe some sort of translator is sold by the shapers in Ryzelm'oire, and there's always good old-fashioned magic... I don't think it really gets in the way, personally.
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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:37 pm

If... I may, as I understand it, in order for the effect to be applicable, I always assumed that you had to be aware there was communication attempted in the first place. So it wouldn't translate something you couldn't hear, but also it wouldn't translate something you couldn't rightfully discern as speech. I figure it'd take some effort -or someone tipping them off- for a man underwater to figure out mersong was actually a language, but once they did, they'd be able to understand it, maybe with some difficulty- as if it were too musical to properly discern.

Kind of like when I showed Ravana3k the song by Sawano Hiroyuki "This is a fight to change the world", and he said that it definitely wasn't German. It is German, just by a choir of Japanese people and written with pretty darn mangled lyrics: now that I know the lyrics, I can tell what it's saying, but it took someone tipping me off to the lyrics.

Or kinda like in some Disney movie, right before a musical about listening to the sounds of nature- which somehow, always end up singing about how great nature is. At some point, the character starts listening, and realizes there are lyrics in the song too. And those lyrics always point to that nature thinks it itself is the greatest thing ever.

Say you see a mermaid sing. You may think it's just a song you're hearing. But if she sees you and changes her song, or makes a pause while looking at you intently, then you might realize she was talking, not just singing. By that point, I assume you start hearing her song with lyrics too. Likewise with any sound that's supposed to carry meaning- you shouldn't be able to tell until you're looking for it. That way, someone who never learned to speak would stay just as speechless as before.

Chlaena communication, on the other hand... I figure it ain't translated, but I figured they could sing too. I mean, they have the same faces as mermaids.

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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:42 pm

**EDIT**

Removed the ramblings of someone who's had the worst three months of his life.

Y'all do what you want. I know what I'm going to do in MY stories though. I've got no issues with my stuff being non-canon if it's ideas are superior to the accepted canon

**/EDIT**
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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:28 pm

Stabs wrote:
Say you see a mermaid sing. You may think it's just a song you're hearing. But if she sees you and changes her song, or makes a pause while looking at you intently, then you might realize she was talking, not just singing.

Somewhat related.

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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:43 pm

Edit.

Sorry for any and all misunderstandings.


Last edited by Solomon on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:12 am

rcs619 wrote:

Personally, I find the idea of an underwater city to be fairly silly. There's no need for it. By nature, undersea predators are much more nomadic than land-based ones, and have much larger territories. Some species are going to stick to a particular reef, or region...but the idea of an actual underwater city just seems a bit far-fetched to me.

Of course its silly. Felarya by its very conception is silly. Yet it has rules, and I like that. Having no rules at all wouldn't provide any challenges to work with - if you could do literally anything you wanted, there would be little enjoyment in doing it. But equally, you can go in the opposite direction. To me, in this particular case, trying to make everything sensible is just going to take away from the richness and diversity of the world.

Quote :

Now, if its only a human-sized city...that could be more believable. Smaller undersea species are going to band together for safety. A city of giant preds though? Nope. That can't really work. It's only happened once on land and even that was only because Sineria nearly rivaled the guardians in power.

Who thought that up anyway? Is it a relic from old-Felarya that was just not thought out that well before being added?

I think you're thinking about giant predators too much with the label of "Predator," and not enough with the label of "Person." They may eat people, but they aren't unintelligent animals. There is no reason, why if there enough of them, people (which giant predators are) would not band together and eventually build a city. Ryzelm'oire, what with its peace truce and all, allows for a fantastic array of interactions and scenarios, most of which would not occur on land. From reading about it, I thought it was a brilliantly well-thought out location with so much potential and opportunities for writers. This is a fantasy universe, where ideas don't have to make complete sense, so long as they're good. If "new Felarya," is going to cancel out ideas as good as these, then that's a bit sad.

Quote :

As for communication, I looked at my old post and the wiki. Mer-song is very complex. They could hold a conversation with it. I will concede hat chlaena color changing probably could too. But I still don't think non-mermaids and non-chlaenas should be able to have either of them auto-translated.


That's a relief.

So, what about the others? The thing is, if it was just mermaids and chlaena having a bit of slight trouble communicating (which they have been portrayed as doing, I'll mention again, due to the differing mannerisms and whatnot) I'd be able to roll with that. But there are bajillions of other races who need methods of communication...

The Archville wrote:

In the entry for Ichtys:
Quote :

The only kind of predator that doesn't hunt them are giant mermaids and merfolk, as a particular bond has existed between the two races for centuries. Ichthys are very caring and often watch over young mermaids, protecting them from the dangers of the sea until they can stand their ground, thus forging solid friendships on the way.


They would kinda make bad baby sitters if they couldn't understand what the mermaids were saying, no?

There are also many underwater races who have no special way of communicating underwater; Ichtys are one of them, but there's also Actiniaes, (Who also deal with mermaids a lot) Sea-slug girls and others... At some point one has to fill in the blanks and hand-wave a lot to write a story set in a fantasy or sci-fi setting where you want different races communicate with each other. For Felarya, we have the translation spell, in other settings they have equally impossible translator devices or other such hand-waves. It's not a big deal, and I wouldn't put my stories on hold for this.

Exactly. (Can't help putting my stories on hold until its sorted out thoughxD Sorry, I'm just a bit of a "must-get-the-fantastical-facts-right-otherwise-will-be-shot-by-self" person.) It's not as though the big handwave doesn't already exist. It just needs to be extended, that's all. Personally, I think that when the translation system was thought up, underwater communication just hadn't been considered, and that's the only reason its not been covered really. There's no point making a big obstacle out of it for no real reason.

Stabs, I love you, but I don't know what you're talking about. XD

Solomon wrote:

I personally think YOU don't have a say on the underwater cities, and if YOU actually READ the WIKI it states Sineria's city and its empire was destroyed because of HER actions, and that SHE went against the BALANCE of Felarya. Come to think of it how could they be destroyed if the Guardians quote and quote don't exist?

There's absolutely no need for all this. I've no idea what Cliff wrote and later deleted, but in what you're quoting, he's simply voicing his opinions on the matter in a perfectly civil way. If you have a point, please express it politely. There's no need to turn discussions into fights.
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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:27 am

GlobFish wrote:
I'll leave up to the mods to decide whether or not the thread needs to be merged or moved or whatever. I'm not fussed, I just want to get this sorted out. :p

For the sake of clarity, posts in reply to your specific question(s) should continue to go here. When a clear answer has been reached, the threads will be merged.

Quote :

I do understand where you're coming form on this, and what you're saying about communication barriers being interesting to write about - that was exactly the reason I brought up the demi-chimera, as I figured a species which can't communicate as well as (I thought) all the others could, would be a nice difference to the norm. But having the norm underwater be, by default, to have at least limited if not complete barriers between species? As a writer I'd say that was too restricting, and just in terms of Felarya as a whole. To me, it doesn't seem to fit.

I agree. Communication between characters is central to almost any good story; if we isolate all underwater species from one another entirely, that severely restricts Felarya's underwater world as an avenue for stories.

From a practical standpoint, the creativity we all produce together flows from the joining of different forms of contributions: the ideas developed on the forum and which become canonised in the wiki, and then their integration into stories, which make Felarya "come alive". (Not to mention the ideas which originate directly from stories, of course.)

Quote :

And when you consider how bizarre the chlaena mindset is when compared with many others... communicating them poses plenty problems and interesting aspects to explore even without communication barriers. It just seems pointless to add in a problem just for the sake of that one point of interest, when it would cancel out many others. To me, it's less of a "cop-out," without, and more of an unnecessary hindrance with.

Indeed.


rcs619 wrote:

Personally, I find the idea of an underwater city to be fairly silly. There's no need for it. By nature, undersea predators are much more nomadic than land-based ones, and have much larger territories. Some species are going to stick to a particular reef, or region...but the idea of an actual underwater city just seems a bit far-fetched to me.

Now, if its only a human-sized city...that could be more believable. Smaller undersea species are going to band together for safety. A city of giant preds though? Nope. That can't really work. It's only happened once on land and even that was only because Sineria nearly rivaled the guardians in power.

Ryzelm'oire is solid canon, and is quite a fascinating idea. Just picture a giant underwater city (as it's described in the wiki), recognisably a city and yet so alien in its design and habits... It has a wonderful potential for stories.

As you say, most giant preds are nomadic, but in all the vastness of the seas it's not at all far-fetched that they should have one big city, where some people live permanently but where many others are transitory; a place to congregate or visit for various purposes. And as Glob said, giant predators are not simply predators: they're people, and as people they have a variety of needs and thoughts and motives for doing things, and reasons for wanting to be in a city.

They don't simply go around eating people and existing in total isolation from other species: they have far more interesting lives than that. They interact, barter, even specialise in certain activities and form a fairly complex society. It's thanks to Ryzlem'oire that we have the Shapers, or the Spires with their indication of a hierarchical society. It's all so much more interesting than simply nomadic predators. Land-based species are predatory nomads, and it's also possible to write stories in which chlaena are the same; the seas are vast, after all. But the existence of Ryzelm'oire adds something useful and fascinating to Felarya's underwater world.

And of course, it does imply that chlaena are able to interact without too much difficulty with the many other species which visit their settlement.


Stabs wrote:
If... I may, as I understand it, in order for the effect to be applicable, I always assumed that you had to be aware there was communication attempted in the first place. So it wouldn't translate something you couldn't hear, but also it wouldn't translate something you couldn't rightfully discern as speech. I figure it'd take some effort -or someone tipping them off- for a man underwater to figure out mersong was actually a language, but once they did, they'd be able to understand it, maybe with some difficulty- as if it were too musical to properly discern.

Kind of like when I showed Ravana3k the song by Sawano Hiroyuki "This is a fight to change the world", and he said that it definitely wasn't German. It is German, just by a choir of Japanese people and written with pretty darn mangled lyrics: now that I know the lyrics, I can tell what it's saying, but it took someone tipping me off to the lyrics.

Or kinda like in some Disney movie, right before a musical about listening to the sounds of nature- which somehow, always end up singing about how great nature is. At some point, the character starts listening, and realizes there are lyrics in the song too. And those lyrics always point to that nature thinks it itself is the greatest thing ever.

Say you see a mermaid sing. You may think it's just a song you're hearing. But if she sees you and changes her song, or makes a pause while looking at you intently, then you might realize she was talking, not just singing. By that point, I assume you start hearing her song with lyrics too. Likewise with any sound that's supposed to carry meaning- you shouldn't be able to tell until you're looking for it. That way, someone who never learned to speak would stay just as speechless as before.

I rather like this. It's quite neat. I can just imagine the feeling that comes with that sudden realization; "hey, she's trying to say something to me! Wait... I can understand her now?' Smile

Quote :

Chlaena communication, on the other hand... I figure it ain't translated, but I figured they could sing too. I mean, they have the same faces as mermaids.

That's... an idea. I'm not entirely sure what to think of it, though. I may be a bit too blatant as a way of slipping round the existing canon.


rcs619 wrote:
I've got no issues with my stuff being non-canon if it's ideas are superior to the accepted canon

Dismissive arrogance aside, I'm not sure you've given much thought to the merits of the canon.

You are, of course, free to do what you wish in your own stories, and I'm sure you'll make it interesting.

Solomon wrote:

I personally think YOU don't have a say on the underwater cities, and if YOU actually READ the WIKI it states Sineria's city and its empire was destroyed because of HER actions, and that SHE went against the BALANCE of Felarya. Come to think of it how could they be destroyed if the Guardians quote and quote don't exist?

Last I looked the chlaena didn't do anything to make the Guardians mad DID THEY?

That's somewhat off-topic; you may have misunderstood what Cliff was saying.

Also, keep cool. Cliff was expressing an opinion, which he's entitled to do. I'll thank you not to shout.

Quote :

Also you have to take into mind, the chlaena like octopuses in nature are social creatures, and some octopuses in nature are developing what could be called villages of their own, there was such a case where a diver got on film a large eel tried to attack an octopus from this group and rather then fleeing in fear it stood its ground and attacked the head of it, then the other nearby octopuses swam in and overran the eel and killed and ate it when it tried to ruin the peace of the octopuses.

Sounds an awful lot like what the chlaena are doing and have been doing

Don't worry; Ryzelm'oire is established canon and isn't going away.

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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:56 am

Sorry for misunderstanding Cliff, it just seemed off in a way is all, I'm sorry.
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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:06 am

Quote :
I've got no issues with my stuff being non-canon if it's ideas are superior to the accepted canon
We need a bigger forum; I don't think this one can contain his ego.
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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:20 pm

Quote :
They may eat people, but they aren't unintelligent animals.

True, but they are uneducated people, illiterate, and without any formal education. All they know is what their parents taught them, and what they've picked up in their decades of life. The're smart, sure...but not the same kind of smart as someone from a first-world country. Their knowledge is much more about practicality and survival. I think the idea of forming a civilization is beyond most of them. Creating a civilization isn't practical, its time consuming and often full of frustrating politics.

I don't doubt some preds can form a civilization. The fairies did it, although theirs is more loosely connected tribes and packs than anything, and the dridders did it when they were united under a powerful ruler. It just needs to be VERY few and far between. The giant hybrids are supposed to be closer to super-intelligent animals than they are to civilized people. They're the nature-aligned aspect of Felarya's man vs nature aesthetic.

Quote :
There is no reason, why if there enough of them

That's another reason giant cities need to be VERY rare. There really aren't that many giants, at least compared to humans, nekos, human-sized hybrids and so on. They aren't swarming all over the wilderness, they are semi-rare apex predators. Granted, the ocean is much more massive, so there would be more giants in it...but still, large-scale giant congregations like this underwater city need to be very, very rare.

Quote :
So, what about the others? The thing is, if it was just mermaids and chlaena having a bit of slight trouble communicating (which they have been portrayed as doing, I'll mention again, due to the differing mannerisms and whatnot) I'd be able to roll with that. But there are bajillions of other races who need methods of communication...

They don't though. Mermaid song is unique in its ability to transmit messages without requiring line of sight. Chlaena color changing requires you to look at the person speaking. Squid hybrids would have color changing too, but I can't see the shark-mermaids (selachi?) being able to sing. Sharks just don't do that. What about non-fish, non-mollusk hybrids? Crab-people, shrimp-people and so on. I know they aren't canon (yet. I'm still working on that =P ), but they've got to be there. They don't have any way to make audible noises and they can't change their colors. I could see some sort of Morse-code kind of system created by clicking their claws though, or by hitting their claws against a rock.

My point is, I just can't see any kind of wide-scale sound-based communication. Underwater is just not the type of environment that supports that. I'm sure someone could think of some weird, hand-wavy way around it... but I think that would ruin a big part of what makes the ocean, the ocean. The silence, the deep silence broken only by the sound of your own breathing.

Quote :
I personally think YOU don't have a say on the underwater cities, and if YOU actually READ the WIKI it states Sineria's city and its empire was destroyed because of HER actions, and that SHE went against the BALANCE of Felarya. Come to think of it how could they be destroyed if the Guardians quote and quote don't exist?

The Guardians do actually exist. But they don't exist as far as anyone in Felarya is concerned. To everyone else, they're legend, myth and so on. They've only taken direct action a handful of times throughout history, and most people who see them first-hand wind up dead.

Quote :
There's absolutely no need for all this. I've no idea what Cliff wrote and later deleted, but in what you're quoting, he's simply voicing his opinions on the matter in a perfectly civil way. If you have a point, please express it politely. There's no need to turn discussions into fights.

Oh a good portion of my post was pretty rude. That's why I removed it. I let the stress of the last few months (Mom having inoperable cancer and such) get the best of me. I have tried to be relentlessly positive, and be more patient with people...but I do have the occasional moment where I slip up. I really don't like being rude though. Makes me feel like an ass afterwards.
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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:33 pm

rcs619 wrote:

True, but they are uneducated people, illiterate, and without any formal education. All they know is what their parents taught them, and what they've picked up in their decades of life. The're smart, sure...but not the same kind of smart as someone from a first-world country. Their knowledge is much more about practicality and survival. I think the idea of forming a civilization is beyond most of them. Creating a civilization isn't practical, its time consuming and often full of frustrating politics.

I would imagine that any move towards a form of civilisation responds to a need, or a set of connected needs. It can be a realisation that trade is rather useful. It can be a result of people gradually specialising in certain activities, and realising that it's convenient to congregate, to have easier access to the things that other people do, and to be able to more easily offer their own. Building... buildings may be a mixture of practicality and a creative impulse. In any case, the emergence of Ryzelm'oire was certainly very gradual; I doubt people set out to think "Let's build a city". The wiki does say that there are a variety of oires which are places where chlaena congregate. Some of them are probably not built up areas at all; just traditional meeting grounds. Others may be sparsely settled. Ryzelm'oire simply grew into one which is uniquely big, out of proportion with all the others - because it served a purpose for it to do so.

Maybe the development of the city followed a form of early agricultural settlement, when chlaena realized they could grow things on the seabed. On the seabed, an octopus' garden. Wink

(After all, some fish are gardeners!)

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I don't doubt some preds can form a civilization. The fairies did it, although theirs is more loosely connected tribes and packs than anything

Felaryan fairies have a variety of societal structures. Some are fairly primitive, semi-nomadic tribes; but the Fairy Kingdom does have a (smallish, I think) urban centre, Kortiki. (It would be interesting, incidentally, to see what homes in Kortiki look like.)


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That's another reason giant cities need to be VERY rare. There really aren't that many giants, at least compared to humans, nekos, human-sized hybrids and so on. They aren't swarming all over the wilderness, they are semi-rare apex predators. Granted, the ocean is much more massive, so there would be more giants in it...but still, large-scale giant congregations like this underwater city need to be very, very rare.

Indeed; it is.

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I let the stress of the last few months (Mom having inoperable cancer and such) get the best of me.

I'm truly very sorry to hear that. You have all my sympathy, for what it's worth.

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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:52 pm

rcs619 wrote:

True, but they are uneducated people, illiterate, and without any formal education. All they know is what their parents taught them, and what they've picked up in their decades of life. The're smart, sure...but not the same kind of smart as someone from a first-world country.

On land, yes. And probably in the vast majority of the open sea. But having certain exceptional areas, most notably Ryzelm'oire, (where the chlaena at any rate are definitely not illiterate) certainly isn't going to do any harm. On the contrary, it adds a whole lot of depth to Felarya in a way which doesn't exist on land. FrenchSnack just explained all that much more eloquently than I can in both his posts, I'm not going to just repeat what he said.

In any case, unless you're suggesting that we get rid of Ryzelm'oire, then none of this is really relevant, as it's established canon.

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. The giant hybrids are supposed to be closer to super-intelligent animals than they are to civilized people.

I have never got this impression, personally, neither from anything I've read, nor from Karbo's work. They're very much people. Not "civilized," again, in the vast majority of cases. Primitive people. But people nonetheless.

Quote :

I'm sure someone could think of some weird, hand-wavy way around it... but I think that would ruin a big part of what makes the ocean, the ocean. The silence, the deep silence broken only by the sound of your own breathing.

Our ocean maybe, to us. Why should Felarya's be the same? It's an alien world, as you put it.

In any case, I and I think judging from the replies on this post, quite a few other people would appreciate some weird hand-wavy way around it. In my opinion underwater species need to be able to communicate with one another, and should probably keep their respective methods. An extension of the handwave that already exists for land-dwellers, allowing all methods of underwater communication to be understood from one species to another, would be simplest really.

That's all I have to say on the matter now though, it's just a case of what Karbo decides on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:14 am

Well there is some really interesting questions raised in this thread ^^
But there is not easy answers to them I think. I'm aware the translation spell is seen as a "hand-wave" by some and it's probably a bit true...
In the end it's obviously not perfect and while it solves some problems, it creates some as well...
As I see it, the spell would work according to the sentience of the creature. This means an animal growling and snarling would remain non-understandable by a human, but a mermaid could. The question of what is a language and where communication begins is arduous as well. I personally thing it's something that should be left to the author's judgement.

But this leads to the original question of demi-chimera communication which is a very valid concern indeed. originally I wanted to make them difficult to communicate with to add a degree of mystery to them but it's badly formulated . I'm going to change that.

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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:14 am

Well, add me to the list of people who, despite constantly doing tons of wiki-research on a nearly constant basis, just assumed the chlaena language was also translated. O.O

But personally, for me, given how much is lost and how little gained by having chlaena unable to properly communicate, plus the mentioned conflicts with established Ryzelm’oire, I'm quite happy to just hand-wave the issue entirely. It's freaking fantasy, after all. No reason to worry over a few minor inconsistencies here and there, so long as it's done in the interest of making an entertaining tale. Razz

(That means get back to writing, Globfish!)


EDIT: Actually, here's an idea. Perhaps the Shapers of Ryzelm’oire, being the mad scientists that they are, have some sort of invisible, tattoo-like procedure/symbiont/whatever they can apply that somehow 'translates' the color-changy thing into something that the omnipresent communication spell can recognize? Most chlaena who grow up in the city have is done early in life, sort of like getting your first cell phone. xD

It would allow a simple, easy explanation for why Ryzelm’oire . . . ya'know, works, and for authors who want their chlaena able to talk to other races . . . while still permitting the existence of individuals who were born elsewhere, or never had/couldn't afford the procedure, for those what want to play up the communication difficulties angle.

Seems solid to me, but I'm notoriously bad at foreseeing the negative aspect of these sorts of ideas, so . . .
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PostSubject: Re: Chimeric Communication?   Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:34 am

PrinnyDood wrote:

(That means get back to writing, Globfish!)

Yessir!


Quote :
EDIT: Actually, here's an idea. Perhaps the Shapers of Ryzelm’oire, being the mad scientists that they are, have some sort of invisible, tattoo-like procedure/symbiont/whatever they can apply that somehow 'translates' the color-changy thing into something that the omnipresent communication spell can recognize? Most chlaena who grow up in the city have is done early in life, sort of like getting your first cell phone. xD

It would allow a simple, easy explanation for why Ryzelm’oire . . . ya'know, works, and for authors who want their chlaena able to talk to other races . . . while still permitting the existence of individuals who were born elsewhere, or never had/couldn't afford the procedure, for those what want to play up the communication difficulties angle.

Seems solid to me, but I'm notoriously bad at foreseeing the negative aspect of these sorts of ideas, so . . .

I think this would be just great if chlaena were the only issue species - it's definitely a pretty damned clever idea. But the problem is that we have actiniaes and sea-slug girl and krait nagas and a whole load of other underwater peeps who also need to be able to talk to one another, and this communication policy doesn't cover them. xD

I think as Karbo has said that it depends on the creature's "sentience," we can assume that all humanoid underwater species are just able to understand one another as land dwellers are.

@Karbo: The idea of demi-chimeras being unable to communicate easily is definitely a good one! It just needs another way to make it work... You have stated that they are can be lot more animalistic than most other humanoid races. They may communicate more animalistically too. It could be a possibility that they just don't have a language as such, having no need for it with their interactions with other chimeras? (Which would probably be rare in any case, seeing as they're a highly uncommon species?)
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