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 The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics

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Venom Agato
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:01 pm

DarkOne wrote:
Was reading something interesting about certain African socities that suggests that because some of them have little grasp of abstract concepts like time, they have problems understanding consequence, as you need to understand time to grasp that. And are therefore likely to be inconsiderate as they don't understand the effects of their actions outside the immediate desired effects.

So I was thinking if that can be another explaination for predator behavior. As much as we like to think our morality system is based on us wanting to do good, it's actually based on consequence. As children we got taught if we do something bad, we might be punished for it in the future. But first for that to be effective we need to understand the link of cause and effect, otherwise unless the puishment is immediate, the child woulden't be able to understand why they are being punished as the cause would be out of their mind at that point.

So if Predators don't understand concepts like time and therefore consequence, they will eat people simply for the immediate effect of satifaction, and not consider the latter effects of the person in pain. And if people were to attack them in revenge at a latter date, the predator would fail to see the link.

So they're ignorant of our natural society is what your saying then?
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:35 pm

Venom Agato wrote:


So they're ignorant of our natural society is what your saying then?

There's nothing natural about understanding abstract concepts such as time and consequance, otherwise all humans would know it "naturaly" without having to invent and thoeryize it first.


My point is that if there are human socities on earth that have trouble understanding consequance and what their actions to do others, how can we expect a completly alien race to understand it? When people who read Felarya ask why predators lack so called "Human values" What they are really asking is "Why do predators lack western values?"
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:16 pm

Yeah that is a good point. Course most Felaryan residents would rather feast on humans rather than take the time to learn their customs and befriending them.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:38 am

Except if that were the case Crisis would simply eat Lea for the immediate gratification with no regard that Lea would no longer be there. Clearly the predators do have a grasp of cause and effect they simply fail to see how the effect can be a problem for them.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:09 am

Lea was only spared because Crisis was intrigued by her voice, not because of any lateral consideration. No different from a farmer sparing a chicken because the chicken happened to have something unique that amused him
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:12 am

I'm referring to the fact she continues to not eat Lea, also Milly, by not eating Isham, also shows an awareness of consequences. As do most of the predators to an extent, it's less about being able to conceptualise time and more about simply having built up a more Darwinian set of values than our current capitalist society, though admittedly not by much.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:26 am

ah right. Well keeping Lea around is more emotional thinking rather proper rationalzation. Living things are going to get attached to something and it really doesn't require much lateral thinking for them to want to protect their favorite things, that is more instinct. And if you like something, chances are you are thinking of it most of the time anyway.

Even human emotional attachement would had been primeal orginaly, simply keeping other people around us because it's what we are driven by instinct to do for our own survival, the rationalzation for our attachments (considering other people's feelings, romance, honor) came later as our communication methods became more sophicated and abstract concepts became part of communication.

That is why if a predator gets emotionaly attached to you, they will spare you, but if you the try to rationily argue that they can't hurt others and they won't understand why not.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:48 am

Well (and I'm only chipping in 'cause it sounds like fun), DarkOne referred to consequences as in "why would anyone hate me for this"? So in theory, we could have Crisis not eating La, because she gets it will keep her from singing... and talking, and hugging (that much is totally obvious, consequence or no consequence, to anyone above the age of 3, even if they're drunk off their head and it's 4 AM). However, if she did, she probably wouldn't understand why would any other human take risks to harm her.

Then again, as Crisis shows, she does understand consequence. She has decided to impose consequences on Lily for trying to chomp down on La, which means she sort of gets the general concept of "I'll f-ing kill you if you do something awful".

But staying off Crisis' case, most predators also seem to know the concepts of taking hostages and torturing people to get them to spill the beans, which sort of pisses me off at times. It's one thing to vore 'cause you think hoomynz are for eatin, but hurting anything because it doesn't do what you want gets on my nerves... more importantly, implies some sort of understanding of the concept of punishment. And to dish such upon something while expecting it not to go the other way around looks, from some angles, mo' like a feeling of superiority than just some oblivious "innocence".

So... in a way, I'd sort of expect predators to have something of a concept of punishment, even if they think it will never happen to them.

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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:30 am

well ultimately trying to apply an overall deconstruction of predator morality will fail as it varies greatly on the individual predator's background, the author's interpretation of Felarya, or in some cases, it simply varies when the plot calls for it.

I am just trying to think of the most plausible explaination, but I doubt there will ever be a 'fit all' explaination.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:09 pm

I suppose the average predator living in the wild, such as Crisis in most situations, would have some trouble with the idea of consequences and social investment, but all the same it shouldn't be beyond their mental capabilities, more a case of ignorance. So Crisis is able to adopt a more civilized relationship with Lea and her peers while still being confused by suggestions that not eating people would make her more popular (a la Karbo's comic strip about this).
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:34 pm

Here's a thought, why don't predators ever have pubic hair? Do they just not grow it? or do they prune themselves, which only begs why they would do that?
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:31 pm

Some do.

For a while, I wondered why no one called Subeta "Bush". It just seems like too easy a joke.

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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:46 am

It does annoy me somewhat when human characters refer to the carnivorous wildlife of felarya as 'Predators', as if suddenly they have stopped considering themselves to be predators and their own predatory behavoir in the past has been forgotten. the term 'Predator' mostly refers to an lifeform that exploits others for self gain, not necessary defined by what goes in their mouth. And dispite their protests, humans have remained very exploitive regardless of the many creatures that overpower them.

Personally I rather have my characters refer to felarya wildlife as carnivores, which litterally means 'flesh eater', it actually refers to their choice of subsistence, and not their nature that has no true distinction from ours.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:54 pm

Maybe it's a relative term. Humans are predators to chickens and cows, etc. (or in Felarya, I suppose tinies in some cases), and likewise, giants, fairies, and giant nagas are predators to humans.

And since we're all humans, we might as well exercise our right to call them predators.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:42 pm

that's true, but it gets really muddled when the humans decide to call Nekos 'mini predators' and treat them differently, even though they are pretty much on the same predatory level as humans. And as you pointed out, some humans tend to eat Tinies, so the eating of small sapient creatures don't exactly work as the distinction between 'human' and 'mini predator' because it's interchangeable

I think it's okay for ignorant humans to call the creature's of felarya 'Predators' as they tend to not understand the moral complexities involved (such as some "predators" not actually being predators because they have decided not to eat humans) it seems werid when it comes to experts who are surpossed to know such things yet label certain speices "Predators" when they probably should be categorizing the creatures as "Hostiles" and "Freindlies" instead
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:17 pm

DarkOne wrote:
...humans decide to call Nekos 'mini predators' and treat them differently, even though they are pretty much on the same predatory level as humans...

Well that's just because humans are racists xD
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:26 pm

parameciumkid wrote:
DarkOne wrote:
...humans decide to call Nekos 'mini predators' and treat them differently, even though they are pretty much on the same predatory level as humans...

Well that's just because humans are racists xD

Which makes you wonder how successful Negav humans would be if they wern't racist. At least racism makes a hint of sense when a race is the top dogs and have nothing to lose from making generations about another race and acting on them. But Negav humans are greatly disadvantaged and need as many allies as possible to stand a slightest chance, I would had thought they would had realized that they can't afford to distance themselves from potential allies and create antagonism within their own city over distinctions of morality that is isn't even solid.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:03 am

DarkOne wrote:
that's true, but it gets really muddled when the humans decide to call Nekos 'mini predators' and treat them differently, even though they are pretty much on the same predatory level as humans.
... But they aren't.

My understanding is that Nekos, when presented with the tiny mice folk, have to struggle visibly against instinct to not attack. Maybe not necessarily eat (though eating is common too), but if you had a few Neeras run about in plain sight of a Neko the latter would be extremely tempted to jump 'em. Humans, meanwhile... don't have this innate issue. Yes, some start to succumb to the natural aura, and others are monstrous / vore-fetishists, but for the most part the distribution / proportions are a fair deal smaller wherever culture doesn't directly support such measures.

DarkOne wrote:
I think it's okay for ignorant humans to call the creature's of felarya 'Predators' as they tend to not understand the moral complexities involved
The irony of this post when talking about beings that literally rock their jollies off sapient beings squirming about in their few seconds before death could be mined.

The reason most people refer to (Giant) Predators is not simply because they eat humans. Furthermore, that you think only Humans call 'em such is... well, yeah. Though I guess it's only fair that if D&D has Humans as the Amazing Socializer, that other settings are perceived as having them as Amazing Racists.

DarkOne wrote:
Which makes you wonder how successful Negav humans would be if they wern't racist.
Has the racism of Negav been blown up in recent years? I remember their only concerns originally were:
1) They were Human-centric, though with a human majority that isn't entirely understandable.
2) Much of their ire was towards Nekos, which makes sense considering in recent history we have an example of Nekos acting / plotting to gut the city, and there is once more the "greater susceptibility to Vore nature" bit (or is it more kosher to try eating your neighbor than be distrustful of them?).
3) The Magiocrats were generally concerned with maintaining their power and keeping themselves safe, which has less to do with racism and more to do with "Likes being well off".

DarkOne wrote:
But Negav humans are greatly disadvantaged
When it comes to larger threats, they're no more disadvantaged than Elves, Nekos, Nemesis', etcetera. Each of them is basically reliant on tools or powerful magic to make a difference.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:43 pm

Malahite wrote:
DarkOne wrote:
that's true, but it gets really muddled when the humans decide to call Nekos 'mini predators' and treat them differently, even though they are pretty much on the same predatory level as humans.
... But they aren't.

My understanding is that Nekos, when presented with the tiny mice folk, have to struggle visibly against instinct to not attack. Maybe not necessarily eat (though eating is common too), but if you had a few Neeras run about in plain sight of a Neko the latter would be extremely tempted to jump 'em. Humans, meanwhile... don't have this innate issue. Yes, some start to succumb to the natural aura, and others are monstrous / vore-fetishists, but for the most part the distribution / proportions are a fair deal smaller wherever culture doesn't directly support such measures.

The wiki makes no menction that the consumption of smaller prey is anything but cultural. Nekos have a varied died that suggests that they are omnivores (as is most are predators come to think of it, I've seen the insides of our gaint ladies mouths enougth times to notice the set of molars that most of them have.) Why would a omnivore speices have innate urges to eat smaller prey over humans, also a omnivore speices?

And besides just saying the canivrous creature's just have urges to attack living prey is lazy writing in my opinon, it's just as bad as saying a villain is the way he is because he is simply compelled to do bad things. It removes the debate that the vore aspect is a different morality (which even karbo has gone saying, saying something along the likes of saying it is about different perspectives) And suggests that predators just can't help being predators for the most part, and therefore is excused from any wrong doing as they didn't have much choice in the matter, which just makes Felarya flat and dull as a setting.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:20 pm

DarkOne wrote:
Why would a omnivore speices have innate urges to eat smaller prey over humans, also a omnivore speices?
Because they're more instinct-given? While Nekos are predominantly unaffected by their partial feline nature, it does show itself at times. A better example for something like this might be Fairies v Humans, and in that case it's often something relating to Fairies' outlook on life and society (the combination of which means "Can you fit it in your stomach? Do you like it more inside or out?" isn't necessarily an uncommon train of thought when debating whether to eat it or not).

DarkOne wrote:
And besides just saying the canivrous creature's just have urges to attack living prey is lazy writing in my opinon,
What about "Humans are predisposed to racism"? Alternatively, "Negav is only human-centric because the humans there are racist"?

DarkOne wrote:
And suggests that predators just can't help being predators for the most part, and therefore is excused from any wrong doing as they didn't have much choice in the matter, which just makes Felarya flat and dull as a setting.
To be fair, the realm does try to twist those who it can. Look at Anna, for example, who has over the years slowly but steadily increased her "Edible Demihuman" list from "Not in control of myself" to "Am very, VERY pissed off".
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:37 pm

We're omnivores, why do we eat meat? Razz
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:54 am

Archmage_Bael wrote:
We're omnivores, why do we eat meat? Razz

I think you are failing to get the point I am getting across,

I am just simply questioning the point that since the Felarya "predators" are so simular to humans, that raises the question of what defines 'predatory nature' vs 'humanity' and that if the humans in Felarya perhaps acknowledged the faulty distinction between them and predators, then they would be more successful at what they want to do.

After all, the most survival people in Felarya are people that worked out how the predators think, not the ones that treat them like monsters and went of the offence. The most successful humans essentialy became predators. I just think it's more profound that predatory nature is somethig that can be tapped in to because it's inherient to almost all sapient beings, not simply defined by gentetics and magic.

Surely if Anna is changing because of some 'magical aura' and not because she is learning to adapt to her circumstances would make her story pointless? It would suggest that any of her contributions means nothing because she is fated to change regardless of what she does.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:03 pm

That was actually rhetoric, DarkOne. I suggest reading Malahite's post over again.

Just because someone can learn to be a predator, however much, does not mean that they wont eat meat. Afterall, meat is an important part of the diet, whether its humans or Kensha beasts. Who cares if they have intelligence? Why would it be wrong to eat someone who's intelligent? Seriously. That sounds inhuman, but think about it. Humans have no natural defenses whatsoever. Our intelligence is what keeps us on the top, but given that, humans are still animals (and therefore we're food too, we're just not eaten much in our real-life). Yes, humans are animals. It's fine to eat an animal if you can catch it. Why would that be wrong? That's the way nature works.

Don't be so idealistic to think that because you're intelligent that makes you some kind of higher being, and that makes it wrong to eat you. "Lets save every life because its our duty! We're intelligent so its wrong to eat us!" If you want to save every life, feel free. If you can, then it works for you, but that's not how nature works. Getting caught up in our own self-built morality (because we operate with free thought) that goes against nature isn't necessarily wrong, but neither is an intelligent creature being eaten because its just there.

Instinct doesn't matter either for that reason. If there's food and you're hungry, you eat it. End of story.

I'm not going to bring in the vorish aspect that Malahite raised.

Quote :
The irony of this post when talking about beings that literally rock their jollies off sapient beings squirming about in their few seconds before death could be mined.

The reason most people refer to (Giant) Predators is not simply because they eat humans. Furthermore, that you think only Humans call 'em such is... well, yeah. Though I guess it's only fair that if D&D has Humans as the Amazing Socializer, that other settings are perceived as having them as Amazing Racists.

The vorish depiction should be obvious. As for everything I said, it sort of coincides with "Amazing Racists". Its true how we tend to see other humans as superior, and think the shark is evil/complains when it eats us. Oh the complacency is rampant.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:45 pm

What are Negav's views on Jetbike delivery? Because a jetbike owner could enter and exit the city completly unregulated because they can just fly over the walls. While weapons and such are allowed in Negav, however most people still have to go through the gates so at least the really dangerous people and items are filtered from the least threatening. But this woulden't be the case with a Jetbike owner, for all Negav knows, a Jetbike might have a cargo container with a swarm of Dusk Nyphs in it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for Overthinking Felaryan Topics   Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:33 pm

Quote :
What are Negav's views on Jetbike delivery? Because a jetbike owner could enter and exit the city completly unregulated because they can just fly over the walls. While weapons and such are allowed in Negav, however most people still have to go through the gates so at least the really dangerous people and items are filtered from the least threatening. But this woulden't be the case with a Jetbike owner, for all Negav knows, a Jetbike might have a cargo container with a swarm of Dusk Nyphs in it.


Well, he couldn't actually bring Dusk Nymphs in: they'd die, under the effects of the Isolon Eye.

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