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Shady Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:47 am

Don't forget Ascarlin, which is highly coveted on many worlds, partly because of how strong a magical amplifier it is, and is pretty much the whole reason Negav is located so close to the Ascarlin Mountains.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:40 pm

jedi-explorer wrote:
Sorry if this has already been said but it occured to me while I was asking Karbo to do new land vehicles. Somebody said "Negav doesn't have much to export" well I found a flaw in that theory. High tech anti-predator weapons, vehicles and gear may be useless on some worlds where they're aren't any preds, but we know there's at least two canon ones. Karob's and El Portero's...Donodo? I think. I'd have to look at Elle's bio again to be sure, but the point is things like Suped Up APCs, Jetbikes and 0Vom Hotrfiles and such would radically shift the balance of power on some world and be in some demand right?
That's because Felarya imports those, if I got it right- there's not a lot of industrial development. As for Dorontu, it has giant predators like Elle (mmm, some hottie she is alright) but it doesn't have very advanced natives. It's more cost-effective to displace them than to trade with them, and we don't know if they're even related often to Felarya. I mean, Portero has his own wiki for Dorontu...

DarkOne wrote:
Yeah I have to question the claim that Negav doesn't have much to export. Let's start with the obvious, Felarya soil. It's literally pay dirt.
Yeah, agree. Not with most of your ideas: tinies aren't an export, for instance (and for all we know, they've conquered more worlds than humans, so in fact an advanced society of tinies coulda created nekos as a WMD), but I'm sure with some thought we could find like a thouzen of things that can be exported. Like Shady pointed out, the minerals, for instance.

I like how you've shown your work, RV. Making higher tech inmigrants rarer could work. I get the point in your anecdote, too, that ingenuity is plain unpredictable. And that list must've been aplenty work... so thanks for your time.

Ilcie, what you mentioned is appropriate too. Together with RV, we've got the two ways of looking at tech- either it can be done because someone will find a way even if just to kill time, or the number of reasonable limitations is sufficient to stop a sane person from trying.

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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:30 am

Yeah I know Ascarlin would be a major export, I just didn't mention it because if it's as valuable as it's been described, then it could take several months to gather just a handfull of the stuff. Which would be great on 'payday' but Negav would definitely need more common ways to spin money in order to keep the Ascarlin operation going. As they say, 'Don't put all your eggs on one basket.' So I was mostly thinking of what else negav has that could be used to make money.

After all, the Magiocrats might be rich and powerful, but militaries and mining corperations still cost alot of money. The more ways negav has to make money, the less the Magiocrats will have to cut back on their profits in the long term.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:54 am

It's really an interesting thread Smile
Lot of ideas and remarks bouncing around.
Now to answer some questions : In my view, Negav is basically at a pre-industrial stage in its common parts :  You would see more people wielding bladed weapons or bows in the lower districts than guns.
However technology isn't a mysterious force taken for some sort of divine manifestation.  It's understood or at least admitted and because Negav is a thriving city, it is catching up as a whole.
And indeed ,the more you goes up in tier, the more apparent it becomes, with examples of high technology being quite a common sight in the higher tier.

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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:12 am

So technology is around pre-industrial stage in the Lower Tier, eh?  Could you elaborate a bit more, please?  For instance, would you say it's about late Renaissance technology, or do you mean that the society merely favors manual labor than manufacturing with machines?  For example, you said that you would find more people wielding blades and bows/crossbows than guns in the Lower District.  I ask because your statement of a pre-industrial society for the Lower Tier brings up a possible contradiction in the wiki.  In the entry for currency, the examples of an adventuring outfit include what is obviously a bullet-proof vest and scuba gear.  While both were developed, or at least began development in the 18th century according to wikipedia, I find these two examples seem a little modern for a pre-industrial society.

Also, in your mention of guns, what kind of gun exactly do you think would be more commonly sold in Negav, if they are sold at all? I think the Fairy Duster is a nice example of a Negavian gun, but I think its description could be a little clearer. For instance, it is described as a shotgun with a wider barrel, making it look like a blunderbuss. It implies that guns in Negav are at least beyond early firearms like muskets. However, it says you only really got one try at it, because fairies won't get caught off guard twice by it. What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean that the weapon is single-shot and so the fairy would immediately try to take out the person with the shotgun? To me, it only seems logical, as if it was a modern pump-action shotgun, I think the gunslinger would have as many tries as the number of shots remaining before he or she needs to reload. Also, would you say a gun like the Fairy Duster is cheap and easy to find for Negavian and adventurers, legally of course, or would they be expensive and hard to find?

I think it would be nice if you illustrated, or at least enumerated, examples of common technology you could find in each tier as to give people a better understanding of the tech level in Negav as a whole.  I say that because I made frequent mention of a gun store in the Lower Tier in my stories, but it was modeled after a modern gun store and sold weapons you would more or less reasonably find in our real life modern society.  I am no longer so sure if such a thing would exist in the Lower Tier, or even the Middle Tier for that matter.  I find the fact you never commented on it in my stories, implying that it was perfectly normal until you just brought up a pre-industrial society just make things more confusing to me.  And that's no good.


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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:22 am

Karbo wrote:

Now to answer some questions : In my view, Negav is basically at a pre-industrial stage in its common parts :  You would see more people wielding bladed weapons or bows in the lower districts than guns.
Guns existed before industrial era and were more common than bow due to they were easy to train. And modern firearm like current handgun, assault rifle like AK47 and even modern bullets can be handmade. What you need it's people who have the skills and knowledge, factories is more a way of Mass Production. Technology doesn't involve only machine or tools.

Karbo wrote:
However technology isn't a mysterious force taken for some sort of divine manifestation.  It's understood or at least admitted and because Negav is a thriving city, it is catching up as a whole.
And indeed ,the more you goes up in tier, the more apparent it becomes, with examples of high technology being quite a common sight in the higher tier.
If I see your point the concept of high technology or low technology is relative because having a good sword was considered as a high technology achievement in its time it became low because new efficient and more affordable alternatives appeared not because they were made in a specific era. Stating something is high or low technology doesn't reflect it's availabilities because even at our time a traditional crafted sword or a plate armour is more expensive than modern infantry stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:31 am

Shady Knight wrote:
So technology is around pre-industrial stage in the Lower Tier, eh?  Could you elaborate a bit more, please?  For instance, would you say it's about late Renaissance technology, or do you mean that the society merely favors manual labor than manufacturing with machines?  For example, you said that you would find more people wielding blades and bows/crossbows than guns in the Lower District.  What kind of gun are you talking about?  Do you mean muskets or do you mean single-shot chamber-loaded rifles?  I ask because your statement of a pre-industrial society for the Lower Tier brings up a possible contradiction in the wiki.  In the entry for currency, the examples of an adventuring outfit include what is obviously a bullet-proof vest and scuba gear.  While both were developed, or at least began development in the 18th century according to wikipedia, I find these two examples seem a little modern for a pre-industrial society.

I think it would be nice if you illustrated, or at least enumerated, examples of common technology you could find in each tier as to give people a better understanding of the tech level in Negav as a whole.  I say that because I made frequent mention of a gun store in the Lower Tier in my stories, but it was modeled after a modern gun store and sold weapons you would more or less reasonably find in our real life modern society.  I am no longer so sure if such a thing would exist in the Lower Tier, or even the Middle Tier for that matter.  I find the fact you never commented on it in my stories, implying that it was perfectly normal until you just brought up a pre-industrial society just make things more confusing to me.  And that's no good.
I mean that, for the most part,  the society doesn't mass product things and is less advanced than our in most areas. Negav is touched by modernity as it's regularly in contact with it , but it has not yet fully embraced it. That's what I meant by pre-industrial.

And yes could find shops dealing with modern guns in the lower district but they are less common than swords and much more expensive.

As for the kind of technologies found,  well in most of Negav there is not electricity network.  Electricity/energy  is used to power up some things  but it comes in the form of shard of actinite that could be recharged with interaction with Mazhir gems in specialized places.  Likewise, Actinite lamps seem the most logical way to light the streets and homes.

Telephone doesn't exist in Negav. Long distance communications are reserved to a rather small portion of the population. I'm thinking about domesticated dryads for example.

There are no factories either, although places like the great foundry is becoming more and more efficient and the concept is growing on Negavians.

Clock exist in Negav, although I'm not totally sure how the time is divided. I'm leaning toward keeping the same hour system than our, basically to make things simpler.

Water system serves most of the city. To cook, one would use scintilla as a warming plate or oven. And to conserve goods, a cavity coated with boralite acting as a fridge.

This is what comes on top of my head.

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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:19 am

Those examples are great help and magitech is definitely fitting of Negav.  Somewhere out there, Kiki is probably ecstatic.  I think the idea for boralite would be better if it was used as a large box coated with boralite, or how real ice boxes used to look like, only it uses boralite as a means to keep everything cold.  That would look closer to a magitech fridge in my opinion.  However, I must point out both a contradiction and a potential idea.  Negav's entry in the wiki has a box at the bottom that enumerates the major districts and give them a brief description.  The one for Negav's underground says, and I quote: "[...] Lots of the functions of Negav, like handling of the dead, sewage and water, electricity, magical ley lines etc. are managed in facilities in the underground."

Since you said that there is no electricity network, I think that line needs to be rectified, as it implies that a power plant is located underground.  Which brings me to my potential idea, it mentions magical ley lines, hinting that something is meant to tap into them.  If you think about it, there could be something in Negav that uses ley lines as magic power lines, which could be used to power the Mazhir and Actinite more effectively, though still making it a point that it's not quite as good as actual power lines.

While I was talking about the Fairy Duster in my last post, I had a revelation: It, along with its ammunition, is essentially a Felaryan equivalent to birdshot cartridges, only made specifically to defend oneself against fairies, while keeping some obvious flaws so that it's not guaranteed protection.  With that in mind, wouldn't it make sense to be more guns like that, like Felarya's equivalent to an elephant gun?

What comes to my mind is a gun that uses large caliber rounds, 12mm and above, and is designed to expand upon entering the target, like a hollow-point bullet, so it causes a bigger wound, big enough to hopefully cause bleeding and great pain.  How it would expand I don't know, I think the same tiny explosive fragment mentioned in the Fairy Duster could be used to help the bullet expand more and cause some more damage, but since I'm not an expert, I think it could potentially be overkill.  As for flaws, obviously these would be single-shot, so pray that you hit, they would be quite noisy and would probably have awful recoil.  In other words, like the Fairy Duster, last ditch effort to defend yourself against a giant if it's impossible to flee.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:52 pm

karbo wrote:
I mean that, for the most part, the society doesn't mass product things and is less advanced than our in most areas. Negav is touched by modernity as it's regularly in contact with it , but it has not yet fully embraced it. That's what I meant by pre-industrial.
So let me get this straight...I'm going to find more sword users even though building a flintlock (or even bolt action) rifle is much easier then building the common esque of a medieval double bladed sword? I would like to see a balance in that, i'm sorry but i think that that has to do more with weapon preferability (which as i said before, I see more people using swords and magic because of the "tradition of a our fathers" effect with the magiocrats and all before other things like more modern tech gets the "grandfather effect" put in). I'm imagining that in a sense that I'd see more people selling bow/crossbow and arrows because of what you just said, but i should still see primitive fire arms at least to be a sight not as mainstreamed but still fairly common.

karbo wrote:
As for the kind of technologies found, well in most of Negav there is not electricity network. Electricity/energy is used to power up some things but it comes in the form of shard of actinite that could be recharged with interaction with Mazhir gems in specialized places. Likewise, Actinite lamps seem the most logical way to light the streets and homes.
Are we talking about a wide electricity network? I can imagine in a few small communities having it. visualizing that I'd see the lower tears having the least, The mid tiers would be having some communities with electricity a decent network that isn't big, and a lot of the higher tears gorging themselves with networks (they're a minority so it won't break anyone else's bones much. How ever I do see having small man generators being used in certain places, How ever your going to need generator regardless to makes stuff like jet bikes and hot rifles to a a fine creative degree.

karbo wrote:
Telephone doesn't exist in Negav. Long distance communications are reserved to a rather small portion of the population. I'm thinking about domesticated dryads for example.
Are we talking about among the common people? Because since negav has an higher then modern tech defense, I don't imagine soldiers using the "human messenger system" that would be redundant, contradictory, and illogical. Is there a magic alternative i'm missing?

karbo wrote:
There are no factories either, although places like the great foundry is becoming more and more efficient and the concept is growing on Negavians.
So for those close to modern or more advanced...Township and village enterprises? basically factories the size of large homes or small stripmalls. Since the city seems to be built vertically with other building on top of others I could still see factories like these being visible, and if you wan't to get interesting large in atmosphere floating craft could be a substitute too for those that are stranded or are looking for a place to call home and make decent business. that'd be a site for a small landmass city.

I think that's all the question and commentary I have that i would like to see answered.


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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:35 pm

There are a few things I don't think you considered. For starters, early firearms, aren't they a pain in the ass to reload? I believe many and adventurers see them as less reliable than bows/crossbows because they can be more easily loaded, as long the crossbow isn't too big. This is why I'd like to suggest that weapons like Fairy Dusters and the equivalent of an elephant gun be more the norm, because then there's a more clear purpose than something that can be done just as well with a bow/crossbow. City defense. Aside from the Isolon Eye, it's under the jurisdiction of the Vishmitals and they don't really care about anyone else but themselves. Also, what is to say they don't have higher than modern communication system that is used exclusively by members of the military and city defense? Factories. You mentioned factories, but as Karbo said, Negav as a whole doesn't mass produce things. Wouldn't a factory contradict the idea that they haven't embraced mass production just yet?
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:25 am

Shady Knight wrote:
There are a few things I don't think you considered.  For starters, early firearms, aren't they a pain in the ass to reload??
If we are talking about muskets, then it would be a little more than a pain in the ass, For starters a Musket had to be operated by two people, a solider to fire it, and a man to reload it for him, a very dangerous job as he had to acutally fill the gun with raw gunpowder before putting the pellet in (no bullets with already measured gunpowdered inbedded in those days) the slightest misculcuation could make the gun misfire and perhaps even explode. Of course this means you have to carry your gun powder around with you. Which would only weigh you down more.

A fuse then must be put on and then lit, the soilder then have to wait more time for the thing to acutally fire. Once it has fire he then had to hand the rifle back to the musketeer to prepare for the next shot. So really we are talking about four shots per minute.

And even then there was little chance of hitting anything with the damn thing, But that of course didn't matter as long as you had enougth men to line up in horizontal line armed with them. A whole army of these guys lined up were bound to hit something. But individually they were next to useless unless the enemy was stupid enougth to stand within point-blank range.

In short, I can't see why anyone in Felarya would even bother with early firearms. They would be proberly be ended up used as whacking sticks once adventurers lost their patience with them. They were intended for organized infantry in feilds, not casual self defence in a forest/jungles.

Flintlock pistols would fare better reload wise and are better self defence weapons. Though they would still be slow and their range was also limited and were better used in moderation as a last resort if your sword had failed you in close combat. They were rarely used as a main attack weapon unless your target was completely unarmed.

But the question exists such weapons in Negav even exist when the market for them would be crushed by an importer of Automatics? As I pointed out before, if Negav is a trade hub, then people from outside are going to try to dominate the market by bringing in imported goods. The only people who would have these old guns would be the ridiculously poor.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:28 pm

Just so we don't lag too long with the guns, guys, let's recap a wee bit.

Crossbow reloading takes 12-30 seconds. Reloading a hand cannon, musket or archebus is out of the question. Reloading a flintlock takes 15 seconds at best. Reloading a percussion cap thingy takes 1-3 seconds, and like someone said, if percussion caps could be made with magic, that'd be one load off everyone's shoulders.

I vote for locally produced percussion cap guns, myself. We could have magical revolvers (magivolvers!) that light sparks WITH MAGIC! allowing for cheap bullets that don't need the impact sensitive explosive compounds. I think lighting sparks WITH MAGIC! is acceptable... there's even a crystal that does it in the wiki. In fact, magivolvers could look pretty damn cool. With silver inlays and red jewels and stuff...

Meanwhile, the real deal, automatic stuff would have to be brought from other worlds (and the vishmitali stuff would be the end of the line, bleeding edge tech, super-good stuff that they hog like it's a sport). I'm sure a lot of guns would end up lost in the jungle... and maybe found. I'm sure, like RV pointed out, that someone could try to produce clones from inside Negav, or maybe even somewhere else, but I'd consider this the exception rather than the rule.



So, Karbo, did you say magical electric generators are kosher for you? May we quote you on that? Because it's a real load off my shoulders to have to stop thinking about how to transport 5 barrels of petrol to last a generator five seconds. I'm still gonna assume that the Vishmitali use cold fusion, arc reactors, and bussard ram-scoops (which rams bussards and scoops them up).

Now about boralites and scintillas and mazhir gems and oh my, if that's the case, I'm going to ask... how important is it for Negav to get its rocks off the mountain? Are they always in high demand? If so, that's some pretty nifty plot hooks for why would 50-odd people be out in the jungle armed to the teeth: to bring Boralite so that kids in Negav can have cold beer with their breakfast.



For the record, mass production is a concept, not just a technology. In mass production, the individual pieces are built to exacting tolerances and then assembled together, dividing the tasks between a number of people, each having to make a single part (or a couple. Three at most), reducing downtime for each worker to its minimum expression. That part existed since the Warring Kingdoms period in China, around 474 BC, where they made crossbows by the buttload using this method. I wonder if those crossbows had a carving reading "Made in China"?

Modern mass production, on the other hand, involves as much mechanization of labor as possible: conveyor lines, specialized machines, round the clock manufacture, just-in-time fabrication, the works. If we go just by the first half, Karbo, Negav can have mass production. The second half... I think that's the part you'd object to, mechanization of labor?

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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:44 pm

Yes, here in the west we started mass production thanks to the army getting annoyed that one canonball cant be fit into every canon. every place you'd buy a canon would be made differently, even with similar specs, they wouldn't all work with each other. Here's hoping Negav somehow learned that logic other than the hard way.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:18 pm

I vote that we drop the idea of guns entirely for the time being, it's not really the point of this thread.  I'm going to make a thread later specifically to discuss that problem, because there are a few questions that I need to raise up.

Just saying though, Stabs, I don't think your idea of a gun with a magic percussion caps doesn't make any sense.  It's not the cap that produces the spark, it's the primer in the cartridge that the cap hits that produces the spark, which ignites the propellant, also in the cartridge, which then propels the bullet forward.  Whatever the cap is made of won't change anything, and changing the material primer is made of won't make a difference.  It would just be different for the sake of being different.  Furthermore, scintilla is a precious gem, which means it's fairly rare, so using it for igniting the propellant in cartridges would be wasteful more than anything.


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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:08 pm

Shady Knight wrote:
I vote that we drop the idea of guns entirely for the time being, it's not really the point of this thread.  I'm going to make a thread later specifically to discuss that problem, because there are a few questions that I need to raise up.

Just saying though, Stabs, I don't think your idea of a gun with a magic percussion caps makes much sense.
I have said people have to put their lives on the line because kids need cold beer for breakfast, and this is what doesn't make sense to you? Laughing 

'sok, guns need their attention separately anyway. But now that you mention scintilla is a rare gem... I just read that plates with scintilla in them are scheduled to become mainstream. So I'm figuring it's not really that rare or precious.

Karbo wrote:
Electricity/energy is used to power up some things but it comes in the form of shard of actinite that could be recharged with interaction with Mazhir gems in specialized places. Likewise, Actinite lamps seem the most logical way to light the streets and homes.

Water system serves most of the city. To cook, one would use scintilla as a warming plate or oven. And to conserve goods, a cavity coated with boralite acting as a fridge.

This is what comes on top of my head.
If Scintilla is rare, I wonder what firewood is. It's gotta be at least very rare! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:53 am

I think the general idea is that scintilla is easier to spark than firewood and can be used over and over again, negating the need to go out and chop wood. It's certainly a better use than in a cartridge that's going to be discarded once it's been used.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:43 am

ravaging vixens wrote:

So let me get this straight...I'm going to find more sword users even though building a flintlock (or even bolt action) rifle is much easier then building the common esque of a medieval double bladed sword? I would like to see a balance in that, i'm sorry but i think that that has to do more with weapon preferability (which as i said before, I see more people using swords and magic because of the "tradition of a our fathers" effect with the magiocrats and all before other things like more modern tech gets the "grandfather effect" put in). I'm imagining that in a sense that I'd see more people selling bow/crossbow and arrows because of what you just said, but i should still see primitive fire arms at least to be a sight not as mainstreamed but still fairly common.
Well there is probably a cultural element rather than an entirely practical one to that yes.  There are firearms and they are not "rare" per say. For example if you go to the lower tier of Negav to seek one, you won't have to search too much for it. It's just less common than a shop selling good old bladed weapons. You could say old habits don't go away easily.  Or it could be that the material to create ammunitions/gunpowder are a little less available to Negav as well.

ravaging vixens wrote:

Are we talking about a wide electricity network? I can imagine in a few small communities having it. visualizing that I'd see the lower tears having the least, The mid tiers would be having some communities with electricity a decent network that isn't big, and a lot of the higher tears gorging themselves with networks (they're a minority so it won't break anyone else's bones much. How ever I do see having small man generators being used in certain places, How ever your going to need generator regardless to makes stuff like jet bikes and hot rifles to a a fine creative degree.
By electricity network, I mean there is no electric wires poles in the street bringing power to each homes. There are networks of sort in Negav but they are typically small and limited to some specific parts like you says.

ravaging vixens wrote:

Are we talking about among the common people? Because since negav has an higher then modern tech defense, I don't imagine soldiers using the "human messenger system" that would be redundant, contradictory, and illogical. Is there a magic alternative i'm missing?
No of course, for defense  and military you would have some sort of tele-communication. But it is not widespread, this is what I meant.
And by factories, I mean mechanized chains and mass-production. this doesn't exist yet in Negav. Handdcraft  ( not sure if it's the exact word ) is the way to go when it comes to manufacture.
As I see things Negav is not a modern city like those in our world.  Negavians are less advanced in general and, more importantly, do many things differently than us for various reasons : because Felarya is such a completely different environment, because their society and social organization as a whole is very different and based on different values and mindset than ours. It is functioning pretty well though and thriving.

I think a big part of the fun of universe building is to try and establish how a society function starting from various elements, and how they had to adapt, possibly in very unexpected ways ^^ I really thing we should avoid recreating our society when working on Negav by making it a mirror of sort.

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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:50 am

Stabs wrote:

I vote for locally produced percussion cap guns, myself. We could have magical revolvers (magivolvers!) that light sparks WITH MAGIC! allowing for cheap bullets that don't need the impact sensitive explosive compounds. I think lighting sparks WITH MAGIC! is acceptable... there's even a crystal that does it in the wiki. In fact, magivolvers could look pretty damn cool. With silver inlays and red jewels and stuff...
Hehe that's a neat idea. I love it Smile 

Stabs wrote:

So, Karbo, did you say magical electric generators are kosher for you? May we quote you on that? Because it's a real load off my shoulders to have to stop thinking about how to transport 5 barrels of petrol to last a generator five seconds. I'm still gonna assume that the Vishmitali use cold fusion, arc reactors, and bussard ram-scoops (which rams bussards and scoops them up).

Now about boralites and scintillas and mazhir gems and oh my, if that's the case, I'm going to ask... how important is it for Negav to get its rocks off the mountain? Are they always in high demand? If so, that's some pretty nifty plot hooks for why would 50-odd people be out in the jungle armed to the teeth: to bring Boralite so that kids in Negav can have cold beer with their breakfast.
I don't know what Kosher means.. But I assume that those kind of gems and stones are in high demand indeed, yeah.


Stabs wrote:

For the record, mass production is a concept, not just a technology. In mass production, the individual pieces are built to exacting tolerances and then assembled together, dividing the tasks between a number of people, each having to make a single part (or a couple. Three at most), reducing downtime for each worker to its minimum expression. That part existed since the Warring Kingdoms period in China, around 474 BC, where they made crossbows by the buttload using this method. I wonder if those crossbows had a carving reading "Made in China"?

Modern mass production, on the other hand, involves as much mechanization of labor as possible: conveyor lines, specialized machines, round the clock manufacture, just-in-time fabrication, the works. If we go just by the first half, Karbo, Negav can have mass production. The second half... I think that's the part you'd object to, mechanization of labor?
Yep exactly.

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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:32 am

I must object to the magic revolver, loudly object in fact.  That is NOT how firearms work.  The cap isn't what lights up the propellant, it's the PRIMER the cartridge that does.  The cap only serves to activate the primer, which then lights up a spark, which then ignites the gunpowder, which then propels the bullet.  Making the cap magical won't change anything, the catridge will still use gunpowder, so in the end, it may as well be a normal revolver.  If you want a magic gun, its mechanism and probably its entire design would have to be radically different than a standard firearm.  Subsituting one component for magic just to make it different is highly inefficient, and when you get down to it, doesn't change the product from a real life one in any significant way.  Furthermore, with a weaker grasp of firearms and requiring a certain level of magical knowledge, wouldn't crafting a gun like that, which would probably be even more expensive, yield too little results for something a normal gun can easily match?

Incidentally, kosher means normal, an acceptable practice.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:53 am

Fair enough, Shady, it may very well be actually a bad idea. Let's move on with a different subject; once you're satisfied with the current development on why no guns, we can talk magivolvers in your other thread. XD

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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:09 am

Anyway, I think it would be a good idea to add the details we learned in this thread in Negav's entry. How it's close to a pre-industrial society that hasn't embraced mass production yet, and uses magitech for the most part, listing some of the examples Karbo listed, and that the higher up the tiers, the more sophisticated that magitech become, something like that. I believe this will give people a better understanding of what the city is like.

As an addendum, perhaps mend some of the descriptions for the various tiers, because I can see some people think that the Lower Tier is where the poor residents live, that it's just named like that because it's at the base of the hill the city is built on.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:31 am

I'll soon do an update to the Negav page, yes. Those couple threads brought interesting ideas on the table.

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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:31 am

Hold on, I just realized something. Karbo said that there is no telephone in Negav. There is an equivalent to an hospital, if that ever gets developed, and I would assume an ambulance to transport wounded. But if there is no telephone for people to use, how do you call for an ambulance? Or the police? Or the hydromancers' guild in case of a fire? This would all require something akin to a telephone.
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:21 pm

Mabye Felarya suffers from this

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NewsTravelsFast
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Level Musings   Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:57 pm

I was actually hoping for a plausible answer, cause I don't think that trope cover things that involve someone bleeding or a house burning, cause both of these tend to result in the person dying or the house being completely destroyed in far less than a single day.
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