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Archmage_Bael
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:08 pm

Seems good to me. I've been talking with Tuc, too, about this.

He doesn't come to the forum much anymore really, so he feels a bit out of touch regarding any sort of updates on how the soil works. I'm going to spoiler a part of our conversation, so the "quotes" box doesn't take up too much space.

Conversation with Tuc135:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:25 pm

I think, with that little conversation, now would be a good time to get some more concrete answers about the soil, because I find the wording in the wiki to be a little sketchy and open to interpretation. First, diseases. Is it a case where mere contact with the soil cures any and all diseases, except maybe some rare super diseases? Basically, total immunity to disease. Or is it a case where the soil simply enhances one's natural resistance to diseases and you recover faster from that? Basically, it's more difficult for you to get sick and your body recovering faster only gives the illusion that the soil is curing the disease and granting you immunity?

Next, maybe just some clarification of how strong the soil is, cause I think some believes that the healing effects are very strong and fast. We know for a fact that you recover faster, but some examples as a frame of reference wouldn't hurt. For example "injuries that normally weeks to heal only take days", something like that. Also some precision about treatment, cause I don't think the soil can just pop a broken or dislocated bone back in place by itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:39 pm

So what about psychological healthcare? I know somewhere I've read Negav has centres for victims of predators that have been traumatised but the exact quality of these places or if they offer any other services wasn't really expanded on.

Whatever services there are, I have a dreadful feeling that it's terrible and abusive. Because let's face it, our mental Healthcare system on Earth isn't what it should be, with many vulnerable people who have been failed. If we have failures, then mental healthcare in Negav can't be anywhere near acceptable.

Unless Negav is uncharacteristically quite advanced in such an area, then I can only assume they mostly have insane asylums passing off as "Treatment centers"
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:59 pm

DarkOne wrote:
So what about psychological healthcare? I know somewhere I've read Negav has centres for victims of predators that have been traumatised but the exact quality of these places or if they offer any other services wasn't really expanded on.
One word:
 

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:54 pm

Heh, I would think people suffering post tramatic experaices from encounters with predators (that mostly look human) would get very confused when exposed to alcohol and then in their drunken distorted perception of reality is then surronded by the cosmopolitan people of Negav.

"Arrggh!....Thash girly hash a tail!.....Ish happenings again!!!!!!...K..k...kill her before shhe eatish uss!!!! ARRRRGGGHHHHH!!!"
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:21 pm

Let's focus on one thing at a time, Darkie. I'm sure psychological healthcare, especially considering the fact of giant man-eating monsters and people randomly stumbling into another world through no fault of their own, would be taken into consideration. But for now, let's get some more answers about physical healthcare, specifically some of the precision I asked about the soil.

By the way, Stabs, I know you're the mod and all, but if you're not gonna post anything pertinent and just crack one of your oh so hilarious and not at all unfunny jokes, then just don't post at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:49 pm

Shady Knight wrote:
If I had a nickel for every sarcastic remark I could make, I could afford one of the doujins.
Have two. Hell, here's another one for free.

If you're really gonna insist we don't make anything up lest we be called out by real doctors, there's a few resources in the wiki you've missed- elori (credits to Silent Eric), which is pointed out to explicitly improve healing, ascarlin, which we may assume can amplify the soil's magic, and the Tolmeshal's black skin divers. Maggot therapy exists IRL, widely used to treat necrosis, and black skin divers (credits to Haar), with their ability to break down toxins, could be another locally available biotherapy.

I've considered petrification as a measure (albeit an extreme one) for averting a violent death. If you get bitten by a 7-steps snake, capable of murdering you before you walk seven steps, or if you get your guts spilled all over the floor and are just about to exhale your last breath, turning to stone might give the people who want to treat you some time to prepare (or to sell you as a statue for fun and profit). A special toxin, produced by the Jenkenite Petrifying Fungus (Credits to Veeshan123), might be able to borrow that time for you- assuming you're still alive enough for poison to do anything. If you're still conscious, looking into a gorgon's (Credits to Moonlight-Pendent13) eyes might also do the trick. I'm sure if anyone would use those, it'd be those magiocrats that favor living so much.

You mentioned strokes. Have you considered what a stroke does to your brain? The language thing would be extremely helpful for stroke patients, while they are in rehab trying to recover their ability to talk. I've mentioned before that care for offworlders COULD be real profitable. At least, more profitable than trying to get money off the people that are bleeding to death (and less likely to get you stabbed in the face by your patients, too, for the faux pas of trying to take their money when they're down).

As for magic being unable to straighten spines and denature cholesterol, can you vouch for that? There are elementals capable of transmuting fire into meat, diamond nagas capable of transmuting meat into diamonds, birds that go poof into bigger birds for their 100th birthday (Credits to Pendragon) and even elves that turn into bigger elves (Karbo made some) with MAGIC! We can assume there is magic that transforms one thing into other. Transmutation, since you speak Donjon and Drag-queen, also known to be the only thing that can reverse Forgon toxin. By limiting your thinking to dirt naps and mineral water, you aren't giving Karbo much to work with.

You said nurses would administer remedies, but Karbo went and said you don't have to be a magic to cast spells. More importantly, remedies are physical and fungible (therefore valuable), spells are (far as it seems) a renewable, personal (not to say labor-intensive) resource. So it could be the other way around, too.

EDIT: And since you asked about the soil... well, let's see if I can try to whip something up.

-In order to prove that something works, we need a test group and a control group.
-The control group is given a placebo.
-If it works, the test and control groups will react differently.
-The soil loses 80% of its power when taken out of Felarya.
-20% of the effect is still noticeable.
-Therefore, the soil's effect, at 20% power, is still superior to a placebo.
-Let's assume placebo effect is 20%. ["Placebo effect can exceed 20% for disorders amenable to the placebo effect."]
-Let's assume the (watered down) soil is twice as good as a placebo.
-Therefore, the soil makes you heal at 140% speed when taken out of Felarya.
-Karbo is bad at maths, so we'll say that substracting 1 and dividing by 5 is the limit of his abilities.
-Multiply the excess of the soil's effect over the placebo's by 5.
-((1.4-1)x5+1)=3

Assume you heal three times as fast as normal in Felarya. Will that do for a first rough approximation?

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:21 am

You made a few errors in your post. First of all, Elori. You forgot that Elori is explicitly stated as rare and grows on tree tops. As I said to Ilceren with his idea about Holy Oaks, it becomes too impractical because almost nobody in Negav would probably know where to even start looking for Elori. Also keep in mind that the tree tops alone are a deadly place to go, as suddenly you are encountering arboreal predators on home turf, predators who probably don't have to fear about falling to their death. In the end, getting Elori becomes far too risky for what could only be a couple of plants. Simply not worth the effort.

The black-skin divers seem to be a good idea at first, but if you have alternatives, such as remedies that work just as well, why even bother with them? While I'm talking about remedies, this may be the first time you heard this in your entire life, but doctors are very busy folks, that's why they have nurses, and as you said yourself, you don't have to be a "mage" to use magic, so I don't think you'd have to be a mage to make little potions either, especially if they're not technically magic potions. What's wrong with nurses giving patients in recovery some remedies to keep them in good shape while the doctors are busy with patients who need more urgent treatments?

About petrification, I must ask you something, where are you going to find a Forgon, something that grows exclusively in the Mycoria Forest, an area that is very far away from Negav and very dangerous due to the lengthy trip, in Negav? Furthermore, why would you ever want to touch one of those mushrooms, who are very aggressive, and would require a powerful transmuter to be absolutely sure? Again, too much trouble for all its worth. Also, just saying, but if it came to the point where you'd have to purposefully get petrified by a gorgon, a man-eating monster by the way, you're already a goner and you're just delaying the inevitable.

Instead, let me bring you back to the wonderful realm of D&D. In 3rd edition and its modern contemporary, Pathfinder, there's a spell called Cure Minor Wound, or Stabilize in Pathfinder. What it does is heal 1 hp. Now I know what you're thinking: "What is be the point of healing just 1 hp?" Well, in D&D, healing spells also have the effect of stemming bleeding when someone is dying. The best part about it? It's a level 0 spell, meaning it's the most basic of basic spells, so I don't see why paramedics, or however ambulance staff are called, in Negav wouldn't know that. Stabilize doesn't heal 1 hp because there level 0 spells can be used over and over, but the principle remain the same.

I don't know what you're trying to get at about strokes, but one thing I will say, where have I said that healthcare was for citizens only?

Of course I can vouch for magic not being able to fix spines and cholesterol. In fact, you answered that question yourself: Karbo can vouch for it. After all, he said it himself: "like you mentioned in your idea, an important part of it would be to provide a good recovery environment, while of course having a staff competent in interventions and operations since the soil won't just fix everything." Let's distance ourselves from the soil a bit and ask ourselves, why would they need to have staff competent in surgery if they got magic spells? The answer is simple, because the magic spells in question can't fix it. A common interpretation for many healing spells, especially those that heal wounds and cure poison, is that they accelerate the body's natural recovery. Let's say that this is how it works in Felarya, do you think the body's natural recovery would pop that spine into place, or get rid of all that cholesterol that's clogging your bloodstream?

As for how fast the soil heals, that's for Karbo to give us a final answer. Your little calculus also left out an important question I ask: does the soil outright eliminate and prevents diseases, basically complete immunity? Or does the soil simply strengthen your body so it can recover faster from diseases and isn't as easily infected, basically the illusion of immunity?
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:58 am

Well, first off, let's just not discard right away everything that is rare. I agree that growing a Holy Oak is a very difficult task and should be dropped, but recollection is a different thing. True that the government itself won't bother sending anyone, but what are adventurers there for? To make money. And hard to find and collect materials are what give the best money. You can count on one of the hundreds of adventurer parties to have come back with some and be selling them in the market. The healers would buy some and keep them for use in extreme cases or very important patients. But yeah, it would be a luxury treatment, nothing that is commonly used.

I would say more or less the same goes for black skin-divers. Healers would normally use remedies, potions and such, but there are cases where you don't know what poisoned a person, or the symptoms are strange, or simply there's no known antidote. You'd use the black skin-divers there, and pray to your gods that it works.

I find the Forgon itself to be a pretty dangerous thing, but I think Stabs was hinting at only its toxin. As in, extract the toxin from a Forgon and carrying it somewhere, ready to be used. As for the Gorgons, do they keep their petrifying gaze even when dead? One could use it the same way it's mentioned in mythology, cutting a Gorgon's head and carrying it with you. Conveniently covered, of course.

To finish with healing resources, I also suggest Alga Pepari (credit to Moonlight-pendent), little, common fish from Threnos Island. Yes, I know it's pretty far, but you have commerce for that. Merchants would go far if they know they'll be paid good for their wares.

I think magic will be used for all ranges of wound severity, and I also think magic would help pop broken bones into position if the deviation is slight. After all, magic does not just help the body by increasing its natural healing ability, it also corrects the natural deviations from the perfect restoration of wounds. Without magic, a broken bone that's unaligned will consolidate in the position it is, no matter if it's straight or not. Similarly, a deep wound would heal faster at the outside layer, closing the wound and leaving an air bag inside, normally leading to internal infections and the re-opening of the wound. A broken spine... well, the spinal cord doesn't regenerate on its own, but I think it's possible a very powerful healing spell can fix that. I think it would still require rehabilitation, though. For internal wounds, however, since they come with the spilling of internal fluids and such, you'd need to at least operate to take the excess of them out, I don't think a spell can handle them without opening the body.


Shady Knight wrote:
I ask: does the soil outright eliminate and prevents diseases, basically complete immunity? Or does the soil simply strengthen your body so it can recover faster from diseases and isn't as easily infected, basically the illusion of immunity?
From the wiki entry on the soil:
Quote :
Moreover it acts as a supplement that greatly boosts an organism's own immune system. It is practically impossible for microbes such as bacteria and viruses to infect living tissue. Thus you won't die from illness as long as you are on Felarya, and any non-lethal wound you sustain will completely heal in just a matter of weeks or days!

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:57 am

Actually, no, you're confusing adventurers with mercenaries.  I did the same mistake when I confused the Adventurers' Guild for a place for adventurers to gather, when in reality, it's a place that primarily provide services to people who routinely leave the city, with a meeting place so that you can talk to veterans and get some good advice.  Adventurers are rarely under anyone's employ and more often than not go into the wild personal for fame and fortune and what have you.  Mercenaries, on the other hand, are the guys who are employed by some third party and paid to get something done outside the city.  Also, like I also said, Elori is found at the tree tops.  Anyone with half a brain would avoid getting in the tree tops unless they can't help it, because they now have much less room to move around, something that arboreal and flying predators don't have a problem with, and thus are at a much greater risk of dying.

But let's say for instance that some mercenaries got lucky and found Elori, and then brought it back to Negav.  Again, it would be very little, because spots where Elori grow are few and far between.  We don't even know how fast these things grow, so you may not be able to get a sizable shipment of the things if you rely on only one spot.  But let's say these guys are smart and decide to use the Elori they found to make some sort of garden, so they won't need to go out in the jungle to get more.  Well, the biggest problem is that they would have to grow a tree, and in this part of Felarya, trees are fucking huge.  Plus, in case the plants grow slowly, they'd have to plant several trees just so they can have a decent harvest in a timely manner.  That would take an ungodly amount of space, which Negav doesn't have that much of.  The only way I can see Elori be used is for critical care, just so they can ration them when it's absolutely necessary.

As for doctors not knowing what kinds of poison someone has?  Um, bullcrap.  It's a doctor's job to be knowledgeable about that sort of thing so they know how to treat it.  But let's say someone was poisoned by some other guy who smuggled poison from another world, then sure, but those cases would be extremely rare.  But even then, why can't a doctor just use a Cure Poison spell when the traditional treatments aren't working?  How about that doctors use Cure Poison, and then when the patient is in recovery, is given remedies to help cleanse the remaining trace amounts of poison from its body?  That would make the black-skin divers pretty superfluous, don't you think?

As for Forgons and Gorgons, again, Stabilize: level 0 spells that stops someone from bleeding to death.  Why not just use that?  Furthermore, Gorgons live in rocky deserts and ruins, which are pretty far away from Negav.  Plus, they are a peaceful race, which means I was mistaken earlier.  But that only makes things worse, why would you go so far out of your way to decapitate a unprovoked peaceful creature, giving it plenty of reasons to fight back, when there are probably more than enough alternatives, all of which more practical?

As for the fish, again, you have to trek through miles and miles of terrain, where there are giant monsters all to eager to kill you, just to get a couple of fish, when you probably have good enough substitutes at hand.

As for your stance about magic fixing the stuff you enumerated, well, since we can't say for ourselves if healing magic works like that or not, that point is entirely moot.

And here is why I ask about the healing soil:
Quote :
The ground of Felarya is a marvel that cures most diseases through simple contact
 This line suggests that the soil grants outright immunity, though I want to bring attention to the word "most", which implies that some diseases are not affected.  However...  
Quote :
Moreover it acts as a greatly boosting supplement to an organism's own immune system. It is practically impossible for microbes such as bacteria and viruses to infect living tissue.
 Those two lines imply that the soil simply strengthens your body so you recover faster from illness and you can't contract a disease as easily.  Again, I want to bring attention to the word "practically", which implies that it's not completely impossible for you to get sick, just very difficult.

With such wording, this is why I am asking for a better answer, and why I suggest that the entry for the soil, both on the main page and its own article, be re-written so its effect are crystal clear.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:41 pm

I still say those quotes from the wiki actually makes the soil worse.

I've said time and again, boosting the immune system leads to autoimmune diseases, which are very numerous, and the only real way to fight it, is through preventative measures. Once you get it, that's pretty much it. Unless you're absurdly lucky, and exposure to Felarya's soil makes it worse. Reducing symptoms would also be an issue because there's like 80 different types of autoimmune diseases, but they all stem from the same basic idea that the immune system grows so strong that it takes the preventative measure of preventing diseases to far, and thinks of your own body as a foreign contaminant.

Now the wording "boosting supplement to an organism's own immune system" is essentially just pills that boost your immune system. That's not some extra device that you put somewhere, or create another function within the body entirely which deals with diseases instead (so the immune system doesn't go crazy). Supplement boost is literally like just taking vitamin pills. So it's still the same thing.

But still. Boosting the immune system, and to the extent that it renders even cancer ineffective? Does anyone realize how crazy that sounds? Or how many logical and medical issues that brings forth? Talk about trying not to get to medical in our healthcare. There's the primary offender.

I still say we need to take that down, and come up with another explanation for the soil, other wise it's just as bad as the Midi-Chlorians in Star Wars. Hell, leaving it a mystery will probably just solve more issues than having an explanation for what it specifically does to the body. Though one thing is perfectly clear:

Shady Knight wrote:
With such wording, this is why I am asking for a better answer, and why I suggest that the entry for the soil, both on the main page and its own article, be re-written so its effect are crystal clear.
Agreed.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:09 pm

Ehh, I think trying to address autoimmune diseases is a slippery slope. There have been more than one discussions about it and we never came close to an answer. However, it does bring up one of the weaknesses I personally see with some of the wordings in the wiki, mostly with the soil and the translation spell: because they try to explain exactly how it works, we can't help but think of little details the entries don't state, like the aforementioned autoimmune diseases, and the more we try to explain them, essentially patch a missing information, we end up with a barely coherent essay about something that, at its core, should have been very simple and easy to understand.

So instead of bringing in someone's immune system, how it protects it and yaddee yaddee yadda, I think it's better to remain simple and say that the soil, and the water due to the diluted minerals, are heavily charged with magic, which promotes health in the creatures of Felarya. This causes wounds to heal naturally faster than normal, probably with an example to give us a basis of how fast, and as an extension, people in Felarya are much less prone to diseases than normal, also probably giving an example of how if a sick person were to suddenly step in Felarya, they would recover from their illness much faster. After that, give an explanation of things that the soil doesn't protect against mostly poisons and parasites (I find pointing out fungi separately as meaningless because a parasite is not limited to really tiny bug-like creatures), it doesn't pop broken or dislocated bones into place, or regenerate severed limbs.

Yes, as you can no doubt tell, I prefer that the soil simply makes it harder to get sick, not outright immunity, cause I think it opens up more possibilities for dangers. Also, just touching mentioned in the article about language. It says that in some areas, like the Ixtapal Marsh, the translation spell is less powerful because the places aren't as rich in magic. Wouldn't that also make the soil in those areas less powerful as well?
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:45 pm

Exactly. (To be fair, Autoimmune Diseases aren't exactly small, but that's nit picking. I know what you mean.)

Also I agree. Some level of sickness naturally should exist, because it makes things seem less real when someone can't die from getting sick. Granted, it'd still be rare as getting struck by lightning, but that's fine. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:03 am

I don't think I'm confusing adventurers and mercenaries. You pay mercenaries to do something, while adventurers go on their own, hoping that they may become rich by selling whatever they find. And that last thing is what I was taking advantage of. If it is known that the Healers' Guild pays good money for Elori, adventurers that underestimate the risk, or are confident, or whatever will get moving and at some point some will come back with said Elori. You don't need to send mercenaries and risk losing the team.

But still, as both you and I said earlier, it would most likely only be used for extreme cases.


Shady Knight wrote:
As for doctors not knowing what kinds of poison someone has?  Um, bullcrap.  It's a doctor's job to be knowledgeable about that sort of thing so they know how to treat it.
Eh, kinda. The doctor's job is to try to save your life, the knowledge part is a tool. And it doesn't give the doctor a 100% chance of saving your life. Diagnosis is difficult, since the same poison does not necessarily provoke the same symptoms in different people. You can go with an illness to five different doctors and receive five different diagnosis, and even then none of those may be correct. It has happened.

But of course, I forgot that there's a single spell that can inhibit any poison in existence. Fair enough, the black skin-divers are described in the same all-curing manner, so no complaints. Though this makes me wonder why a spell can remove any kind of venom but not pop a bone back into place. Why not a "Realign bones" spell? Sounds just as legit as a "Cure poison" one.


As for Gorgons and Forgons, and the Stabilize spell, go back to Stabs' considerations, please. It's for really extreme cases of imminent death. Something that can't be cured by magic, or a situation that doesn't allow you to. Besides, as a Gorgon's head would also be handy as a weapon, it's not a far chance that people go to hunt one. Then again, only in case that the severed head keeps its petrifying powers.


I asked my brother (he's studying to become a nurse) if there is some kind of way to "boost" the immune system, and if he thought it would result in an increase of autoimmunity. He told me there may be a way to rise the immune system's effectiveness but he had to look into his notes to give me specific terms and such. He also found it strange that boosting that system would increase autoimmune responses. Still, I'm waiting for his notes to dig more into it.

However, Bael, I think you're going a bit too far to assume that the soil cures cancer. There are diseases that don't take into account your immune system, since they are not caused by a foreign microorganism. Some variations of cancer are included there. I think it's general consensus that malformations and genetic mutations are not prevented by the soil, so a tumour, be it benign or malignant, is possible.


As for the soil explanation, I think it's pretty clear that the first quote Shady wrote is a generalization and the intention of the second quote was to explain things a bit better, they are not meant to contradict each other. I don't think they do, anyway.

The bad thing about explanations of wonderful and fantastic effects is that they always have details that people can argue against. If you keep it very general, people would ask for specifics. If you try to be specific then people will come up with things that aren't contemplated in the description and ask for more clarification. Then there's the explanation of IT'S MAGIC! that Shady tends to favour, which no one can take down just because there isn't an explanation of how magic works. I'm sure that if there existed a magic-based civilization and they were able to read our magical explanations and effects to avoid using science, they would laugh their asses off at how absurd they are. Just as we would about their scientific explanations to avoid using magic.

Okay, I'm getting sidetracked. Well, you see, I don't think that an explanation saying that the soil "promotes health" in Felarya is any better or worse than the "boosts one's immune system" one. If people ask how it is done with the latter, they will ask that as well with the earlier. I think the solution is doing more or less the same than with the IT'S MAGIC! explanation: getting into a ground that people don't know about and so they would accept right away what it is said.

I've been digging around some of my notes on biology from when I was at school then expanded the investigation a bit thanks to Internet, and I think that I can put together a somewhat technical explanation that satisfies readers. Therefore, Felarya's soil would magically induce two kinds of effects:

(1st)
Felarya's soil rises the effectiveness of certain body processes by reducing the chance of misidentification. That is, the possibilities of false positives and false negatives arising are radically reduced, improving cell development, immunity response and reducing the chance of genetic alterations and some specific infections. The overall effects achieved are as follows:

--- Errors in DNA duplication and RNA-based byproducts are almost always detected and dealt with. This reduces nutrient usage and chance of mutation.
--- The chance of a foreign microorganism attaching to a cell's wall and being allowed inside by the cell's receptors is decreased. This reduces the chance of infection in some types of illnesses.
--- The chance of a foreign microorganism to avoid triggering an immune response as well as the chance of a body cell or substance to provoke one is decreased. This improves the effectiveness and precision of the immune system.
--- The chance of a marker or hormone to not be recognized by its receptor is reduced. This improves the effectiveness of processes associated with said markers.

Generally speaking, you're healthier and need somewhat less nutrients to maintain yourself.


(2nd)
Felarya's soil provokes the activation and prevents the inhibition of the enzyme telomerase when reaching maturity, allowing non-quiescent cells to continue dividing indefinitely, avoiding the natural limit in the number of divisions (mitosis) a cell can have. The soil also stimulates the production of complexes related to the tumour suppressor genes for cell growth control. The overall effects achieved are as follows:

--- The activation of the telomerase enzyme allows for the telomeres, the ending parts of a chromosome, to be repaired. This allows cells to potentially reproduce for an infinite amount of times, avoiding body ageing and making tissues able to heal very fast.
--- The prevention of the telomerase inhibition, contrary to the telomerase activation in fully-developed external adults that come in contact with the soil, can avoid the disappearance of stem cells at highly-differentiated tissues in maturing children. This allows for the existence of stem cells in Felarya-born adults, which are capable of fixing otherwise unrepairable damage in brain or heart tissue.
--- The stimulation on tumour supressors allows for the extension of the G0 and G1 phases of semi-quiescent cells and control undesired growth. This avoids cell growth from becoming cancerous, though severe DNA damage may override this function.

Generally speaking, you don't age, you heal faster and, if you're Felaryan-born, you can heal damage other people can't, which is normally life-threatening.

You probably grow taller if Felaryan-born, but I haven't looked much into bone development. Also notice that this explanation still allows for infections, though they should be rare.

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:23 am

Um, pal, do you know what will happen to someone's who's bleeding to death after it gets turned into stone, and then back to normal? He's gonna start bleeding again, ergo, it would have done nothing. Once again, just stem the bleeding so that you are able to give him treatment now. But let's say that the medics are nowhere near the guy and all you have is a first aid kit. Why not just give him a healing potion? And now, let me guess, you're gonna make the argument "well, what if he can't move his arm?" Well then just force feed it to him, it's not like he's gonna be able to put a lot of resistance. Bottom line: the idea of petrifying the guy is useless because, once again, you have better alternatives. Arguing any more about it would be grasping at straws.

Also, about your explanation, I don't think it needs to be this specific. Just say it promotes health, you heal naturally faster, you're not getting sick as easily and you generally recover faster. It doesn't need to dab into medical terms cause it was never intended to be this complicated.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:37 am

Well, as you seem to not have re-read what I pointed you towards, I may as well quote it so it's clear.

Stabs wrote:
I've considered petrification as a measure (albeit an extreme one) for averting a violent death. If you get bitten by a 7-steps snake, capable of murdering you before you walk seven steps, or if you get your guts spilled all over the floor and are just about to exhale your last breath, turning to stone might give the people who want to treat you some time to prepare
Obviously, if you or some other person can cure you with a spell or a potion, it's not a scenario extreme enough to consider petrification as an alternative. It's not going to cure anything, but gives other people time to react where there's normally none.

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:01 am

What are the odds that you'll run into such snake or creature in Negav?  I must stress: In Negav. Let me remind you all that this thread is about healthcare in Negav, not healthcare in general.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:19 am

Okay. Even though you could get wounds of that order (gut spilling) in Negav, I agree that it would be up to the affected individual, instead of a standard procedure of the healthcare system.

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:29 am

Odds are always present in favor shady, because there's still chances of that occurrence happening, forget assuming that it won't happen because its in Negav. Heck it can even happen near negav if by someone having considerable hate for someone else and and had it all planned or just very unfortunate with luck to run into a predicament like that. That's not far fetched to think at all.

More to the point, they're just giving out examples of how that matter could be settled in negav. Commonplace or not whether you'll run into this, Its just a hypothetical scenario and theory of how it could be treated in negav, and or in general. Killing two birds with one stone sort of thinking. Since negav is a cultural/social hub, It'd be a good demonstration of "what to do." as any other what you could make of most other town/villages.

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:54 am

Once again, what are the odds of that happening? I'm not saying it can't happen ever, I'm just saying that those scenarios are so specific and so unlikely that you can't possibly have preventive measures for everything. Let's just stop beating around the bush about hypothetical scenarios with a less than a 1% chance of happening and focus on actual problems, alright?
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:21 pm

What is the actual problem? I'm kind of at lost here because what Ilceren said there could be a problem. Are we trying to organize what the Negav healthcare should do with stuff like that, I feel like its getting broader to wear its way too open, what's your suggestion sir?

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:53 pm

My suggestion is that we drop this argument.  I'm sorry for getting carried away, I am one for simplicity, and seeing what I deem to be trying to combat tiny, nigh-unforeseeable scenarios just grind my gears.  But anyway, to address the point with the Elori one last time, it's true that it would make sense that the Healers' Guilds pay good money to people who decide to sell them Elori.  However, keep in mind that they won't necessarily be able to control an influx of adventurers giving them Elori.  After all, it's just as likely that adventurers will keep Elori for their own healer.  So in the end, if a guild gets Elori from adventuers, good for them, now they have something useful they can use in a pinch.  But in general, they shouldn't rely on it, cause it would just be foolish to count entirely on something that's hard to come by.


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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:48 pm

So from what I read, Ilceren, even generalizing the soil creates just as many problems as getting specific. So it all falls to pick your poison, huh?

The nature of the soil is too complex. I mean there's going to be a downside to whatever we use, isn't there? There's many strings attached that come with altering the telomeres, and yadda yadda yadda to increase the immune system's effectiveness, that'll also cause some problems in another area. Simply put the soil is miraculous.

I'm all for figuring out how it works, but I don't know if that's even remotely possible without just causing more problems. Maybe I could ask my doctor. LOL.

Seriously though, what if we just left it...y'know...vague? We know what it affects, but we don't know specifically how it functions to make that effect. It's basically a life-sustaining/giving miracle substance. Like the force, speaking of Star Wars, and midi-chlorians were a disaster. If we made up something like that ourselves it'd also probably just make it worse.

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:01 am

I agree that it's better if we leave the soil effect a bit vague, to keep some mystery to it.
But to be a bit more precise on its effects, looking at Ilceren's post, I would say.... it's a bit of both ^^

As I see it, the soil vastly improves the effectiveness and precision of the immune system indeed. Sicknesses that would be too strong for your body in this world are fought much more effectively by it in Felarya.  Damaged tissues repair faster as well.  If you fall and get a bleeding wound as a result, the process of it being coagulated, crusted and disappearing would be greatly accelerated.
The Telomerase activation ( which I admit I was completely unaware off ^^;  ) make a lot of sense as well.

Perhaps we should change the wording that you will never get sicks in Felarya by " you have a very low chance of getting sick" ?
Not making the thing an absolute rule. After all the universe of microbes is a vast and ever-changing one and "sickness" is a term that regroup a very large range of conditions. I am open to suggestions here.

For the debate about petrification in urgent cases, personally I feel it's a good idea. It's not a procedure that is going to heal in anyway the patient but it would put them into a state of stasis until they are brought to the right place to be treated. It makes a lot of sense actually. I am pretty sure doctors on earth would like to have such a tool at their disposal.

Shady Knight wrote:

By the way, Stabs, I know you're the mod and all, but if you're not gonna post anything pertinent and just crack one of your oh so hilarious and not at all unfunny jokes, then just don't post at all.
Ok well last time I checked, posting a joke is not forbidden. And if you don't like someone's humor you can say it in a less abrasive and jerkish manner. here and in other threads  Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Healthcare   Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:55 am

How many times did I have to publicly apologize on the forum? Anyway, I'm sorry for my behavior, again. I'm too depressed right now to say more beyond that. I just want to say something about the petrification idea, turning someone into stone ought to make them much heavier than normal, and thus more difficult to transport somewhere else. Then again, something like a levitation spell could be use, so my point is moot.
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