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Shady Knight
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PostSubject: Negav Development: Firearms   Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:01 am

So with the tech thread giving us a bit more insight about the situation of firearms in Negav, I think the time has come to move the discussion to its own thread. What we have learned so far is that firearms are rarer than the likes of swords and bows and they are more expensive. Some explanations given to such is that Negav is more used to sword and sorcery, which seems to imply that firearms are a fairly recent concept. Dark One brought a good point that early firearms were horrendously inefficient as a self-defense weapon, so I don't think most adventurers would think highly of those. As such, the answer would at least semi-modern firearms like a revolver or single-shot shotgun. However, because they would require resources that aren't very common in Felarya, I presume the gunpowder at least, they would cost quite a lot to craft, and thus would be expensive on the market. However, it has been brought up that someone from another world could potentially sell its more advanced weapons for a low price, as manufacture from its world could potentially be very cheap, and thus completely crush the market, not only of firearms, but other weapons as well.

Why has that not happened? What is keeping people such as these from making swords and bows irrelevant? I believe that needs to be answered more than anything before I can ask other questions, as I feel it wouldn't matter to ask other questions, such as how advanced guns in the lower tier typically are, if that isn't addressed. I know it technically falls within market and trades, but since it deals specifically about guns, I feel that needs to be addressed here.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:53 am

Okay, the magivolver can wait, Shady. Let's go at "why doesn't everyone use guns yet" first.

According to wiki, most of the trade comes from the Belerim portal. If Belerim places restrictions on bringing guns to Felarya through its portal, then it may be hard to run a large volume of guns to Felarya, thus inflating the prices (for anyone who doesn't steal them, that is).

Alternatively, the portal only leads to Belerim some of the time, and sometimes it's pretty unreliable. Even if you could bring your guns to Felarya, there's no guarantee that you'll be able to come back as soon as you wanted to. This may make a lot of people wary of running guns there, even if they're pretty darn daring otherwise.

As a final alternative, Belerim just does not supply modern guns and getting a link to world where modern guns are sold doesn't happen all that often.

Now leave it to Karbo to pick one or ask for more alternatives.

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:36 pm

Here's a thought: in a world covered largely by flammable trees, one would expect incendiary weapons to become popular... unless something about Felarya made them less powerful than they should be. Perhaps Felarya has a different atmospheric composition than Earth, so that fires have trouble sustaining themselves or spreading. One possibility is that it has far more carbon dioxide, which explains the high temperatures, rampant plant growth, giant insects, etc. such as characterized Earth during the Carboniferous period. However I'm not sure what if any effect that'd have on fires, I'd have to do some research.
How this relates to firearms is that perhaps A: people don't use firearms all that much because flamethrowers are more effective, or B: people do use firearms because flamethrowers aren't all that great after all.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:51 pm

parameciumkid wrote:
Here's a thought: in a world covered largely by flammable trees, one would expect incendiary weapons to become popular.
Unless the Magiocrats have a way to put out massive forest fires, then the entire Felarya forest will go just up in flames, killing all settlements along with it. And since Negav is surronded by the forest, it too would be smothered by raining burning ashes and smoke all the moment the wind picks up.

And that's if the gurdians are having an a day off
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:29 pm

I can think of two reasons why they'd at least be used sparingly. The first is the same reason one wouldn't go firing wildly in a zombie apocalypse. Guns are powerful. Guns are long range. They also have a very loud, pretty distinct sound.

Stealth is a traveler's best friend in the forests. Done right, one might never even need to defend themselves, thus rendering all other things pointless. But firing off a gun, even smaller ones, causes a very loud noise which will likely attract other dangerous things. As such, I see them being used sparingly and normally only if things were going bad, as one must accept that using it may very well bring more trouble, and dealing with that brings more and so and so forth. The second reason ties into this. You only have as much ammo as you bring, and bringing more gets heavy, thus tiring one out more and making running away or hiding less of an option after a while. This would force one to rely more on fighting things off, with the same problems mentioned above.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:59 am

sparkythechu wrote:
I can think of two reasons why they'd at least be used sparingly. The first is the same reason one wouldn't go firing wildly in a zombie apocalypse. Guns are powerful. Guns are long range. They also have a very loud, pretty distinct sound.

Stealth is a traveler's best friend in the forests. Done right, one might never even need to defend themselves, thus rendering all other things pointless. But firing off a gun, even smaller ones, causes a very loud noise which will likely attract other dangerous things. As such, I see them being used sparingly and normally only if things were going bad, as one must accept that using it may very well bring more trouble, and dealing with that brings more and so and so forth. The second reason ties into this. You only have as much ammo as you bring, and bringing more gets heavy, thus tiring one out more and making running away or hiding less of an option after a while. This would force one to rely more on fighting things off, with the same problems mentioned above.
Considering that Felarya is a world without any laws you can carry a suppressor of any kind for any kind of weapon, this doesn't make the weapon completely silent, but turns a loud bang into a dull crack, which could be mistaken for a branch breaking. Not to mention ammo for firearms doesn't get heavy until you start carrying a crapton of it. That inu's anti-pred weapon however, extra ammo would become cumbersome.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:04 am

I think there are two flaws with your arguments, para and chu. Para, no one in its right mind would ever bring flammable weapons in the middle of a forest because they would burn along with it. Thus your argument that people would go for flamethrowers, but don't because it's a bad weapon, doesn't work. People would still happily rock M16 and AK-47 if they could because they won't run the risk of burning themselves with them. By that same vein, people would never consider picking up a sword or a bow because it's not a magic rod that can shoot flames, which we all know is not the case.

Furthermore, you are wrong that flamethrowers are a bad weapon. Flamethrowers in real life don't fire a long flame like they do in video games, rather they fire a stream of burning liquid, such as burning napalm, which has actually very good range. The reason they are not used is because they are banned by the Geneva Convention among other things. The problem with flamethrowers in Felarya, however, is construction. They are much more complex than a standard rifle, thus they would be incredibly difficult to make and cost a fortune, thus no one would be able to afford them, and if they would, it probably won't be significantly better than a fire rod to justify its high cost and other shortcomings. That's not even touching how to create enough napalm to fill the enormous and heavy tanks, which I am fairly positive very few people, if at all, know how to make in Felarya.

Chu, the issue of noise and stealth is not as big as you think. What you say is that you cannot go more than five steps without encountering something dangerous, which is false. Felarya is massive, thus things are bound to be spread out. Furthermore, you can make your gun as quiet as you want, but the giant monster you just shot will probably cry out in pain no matter what, so silencing your weapon won't make that much of a difference in the long run, since the monster is just as capable as alerting other monsters, and unlike your gun, you can't easily silent the monsters.

Ammo conservation is a more realistic concern, as unlike bows and arrows, you cannot retrieve bullets after you fired them. However, again, that alone wouldn't be much of an issue, because bows and arrows are also susceptible to that. Arrows won't always be intact after they hit something, so they too are at risk of running out. Furthermore, modern weapons are very ammo efficient. Soldiers can carry many compact magazines, which all hold around 30 shots, made all the easier to conserve with select-fire, and with stealth being paramount, people won't resort to using their weapons as their first answer. So in conclusion, ammo conservation isn't really the issue as bows and arrows are as susceptible to it as guns are.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:03 pm

parameciumkid wrote:
Here's a thought: in a world covered largely by flammable trees, one would expect incendiary weapons to become popular... unless something about Felarya made them less powerful than they should be. Perhaps Felarya has a different atmospheric composition than Earth, so that fires have trouble sustaining themselves or spreading. One possibility is that it has far more carbon dioxide, which explains the high temperatures, rampant plant growth, giant insects, etc. such as characterized Earth during the Carboniferous period.
Unlikely. Carboniferous had more oxygen than right now; that's why the amazing colossal cricket was possible. Check out this timeline for the Oxygen Catastrophe, aka the Great Oxidation, aka the greatest mass extinction evar.

If we brush aside (just for fun) the fact we don't see a lot of flamers because nobody ever thinks of that nor wants to try writing a story with flamers in it, maybe there just aren't that many flamers in Felarya (because THAR BE NO INTERNET HAR HAR HAR HAR).

If I may, personally, I have flamethrowers in my stories, but they're viewed as an indicator of the Godzilla Threshold: the point at which nothing you do can possibly make things worse. For instance, if you meet Crisis... which actually happened in one such story. And even with the flamer things almost went straight up to Lake Caca.

sparkythechu wrote:
Stealth is a traveler's best friend in the forests. Done right, one might never even need to defend themselves, thus rendering all other things pointless. But firing off a gun, even smaller ones, causes a very loud noise which will likely attract other dangerous things. As such, I see them being used sparingly and normally only if things were going bad, as one must accept that using it may very well bring more trouble, and dealing with that brings more and so and so forth.
Once you're resorting to lethal force, stealth failed you already. If you can't win quickly, then stealth won't be your problem ever again, if you catch my drift. Done right, you may never need to defend yourself, but once you defend yourself, better GTFO [unless you're planning on defending yourself some more].

sparkythechu wrote:
The second reason ties into this. You only have as much ammo as you bring, and bringing more gets heavy, thus tiring one out more and making running away or hiding less of an option after a while. This would force one to rely more on fighting things off, with the same problems mentioned above.
For the record... let's have a look at some of those masses. Just metric this time, DEAL WITH IT.
A 12-gauge slug weighs 25 gr. 40/kg.
A .50 BMG round weighs from 42 to 52 gr. 20-25/kg.
A .45 ACP round weighs from 12 to 15 gr. 67-83/kg.
A .44 Magnum weighs from 13 to 22 gr. 45-77/kg.
A .38 Special weighs from 7 to 13 gr. 77-143/kg.
A 7.62x39 mm weighs from 7.26 to 10 gr. 100-137/kg.
A .30-06 round weighs from 10 to 14 gr. 71-100/kg.
A .22 LR round weighs 2-3 gr. 333-500/kg.
A healthy young man can carry all the boolits he wants to, Sparky. (A kilogram: 2.2 pounds.)

I don't really recall how much do crossbow bolts weigh; I think it was 20 gr each modern (more before this point). Arrows, maybe a bit less.

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:24 am

Just a reminder since we seem to be drifting away from the current main point, it's not "why aren't people using firearms?" it's "why aren't people from a more technologically advanced world selling their advanced weapons in Negav's market at a very low price, taking advantage of their world's cheaper manufacturing cost, thus rendering all other forms of weapons like blades and bows obsolete?"
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:48 am

Shady Knight wrote:
Just a reminder since we seem to be drifting away from the current main point, it's not "why aren't people using firearms?" it's "why aren't people from a more technologically advanced world selling their advanced weapons in Negav's market at a very low price, taking advantage of their world's cheaper manufacturing cost, thus rendering all other forms of weapons like blades and bows obsolete?"
Because Shady, if you want to get technical, all people think about when they think technologically advanced weaponry are lasers that go pew pew.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:20 pm

Stabs wrote:
Okay, the magivolver can wait, Shady. Let's go at "why doesn't everyone use guns yet" first.

According to wiki, most of the trade comes from the Belerim portal. If Belerim places restrictions on bringing guns to Felarya through its portal, then it may be hard to run a large volume of guns to Felarya, thus inflating the prices (for anyone who doesn't steal them, that is).

Alternatively, the portal only leads to Belerim some of the time, and sometimes it's pretty unreliable. Even if you could bring your guns to Felarya, there's no guarantee that you'll be able to come back as soon as you wanted to. This may make a lot of people wary of running guns there, even if they're pretty darn daring otherwise.

As a final alternative, Belerim just does not supply modern guns and getting a link to world where modern guns are sold doesn't happen all that often.

Now leave it to Karbo to pick one or ask for more alternatives.
Well if most trade comes from the Berlerim portal, then that must be also where the Isolon Fist and the Vishmitals get their sulplies from. So there can't be a gun restriction from their end. (Why would they limit themselves to trading only with the government when they could increase their profit margin by selling to other groups in Negav as well?)

But the restirction can't be on Negav's end because Negav has never been shown to give a damn about what comes in and out of their city as long as it doesn't go near the higher tier (otherwise the underground simply woulden't exist, everyone KNOWS what sort of people are down there, but Negav authories don't give a crap)

So where would there be a restriction and why?
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:15 am

Actually, Negav does care about what gets in and out of the city.

Negav's entry wrote:
There is (are) only two entrances to the city and both of them are heavily guarded not only by weapons, but also all manner of detection devices and identification spells, to ensure that nothing sneaks in that isn't welcome. The gates can also be sealed off in an emergency, with massive reinforced doors able to close very quickly.
Almost no one remembers that, even though it's written black on white, and thus no one ever shows it. Also, the Underground wasn't made as a hideout for criminals, rather a place for the poor to live in without having to boot them out of the city.

Negav's Underground entry wrote:
Land space in Negav is expensive and hard to come by. Already, many of the poorer residents are being forced onto the streets, evicted by expansion. As Negav is the one "safe" city in Felarya, it's not surprising that most people want to live here. Thus, there is an entire other half to Negav - the Negav Underground. Generally populated by lower income persons, there are a variety of corridors and rooms carved out under the city.
There are criminals there, yes, mostly in The Pit, the city's slum, but that still isn't the purpose of the Underground.

Getting back on-track, I read some more about the Belerim portal, and from it I learned something. Belerim's claim to fame is a dimensional network connected to dozens of other worlds. I don't think Negav would trade with the city itself, rather they would use the city's network to trade with all sorts of other worlds. I don't think Belerim itself would put restrictions on the governments of those worlds, since that would hurt profit and the city is led by greed, and instead put an exorbitant fee for using its network. Any form of gun restriction, however, would come from Negav's end.

But that still leaves the question unanswered, what is stopping a legitimate business of modern firearms from moving to Negav and decimate the blades and bows business? The price for using the network wouldn't matter because it would apply to everyone, even those in the blades and bows business. I have an hypothesis, however, that perhaps Negav make its markets more known to worlds with lower technology, where blades and bows are the norm, which would then be largely unknown to those dealing with high technology.

I'll have to bring that to the trade and market thread too.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:21 pm

Shady Knight wrote:


But that still leaves the question unanswered, what is stopping a legitimate business of modern firearms from moving to Negav and decimate the blades and bows business?
This is also a good point, as long as it is regulated and kept an eye on, I can't see any reason why the Negav government would have a problem with it for the most part.

After all, it's not like a average person is going to be able to afford high grade assult rifles and grenade launchers. At best we are looking at revolvers, shotguns and hunting rifles. These arn't weapons that are going to suddenly make a citizen powerful enougth to topple empires, they arn't going to run amok in Felarya with these weapons taking down gaint predators. But at least when it comes to equal sized targets at least they won't be fiddling about with gun powder.

If the Magiocrats and Vishmitals, who are surposed to be "powerful mages" and "A very advanced race" find Negav citizens packing six shooters and boomsticks scary enougth to go out of their way to put an complete ban on imports. Then it kinda makes it look like that the Negav government isn't all that strong and are infact insecure about their own superiority.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:17 pm

DarkOne wrote:
Shady Knight wrote:


But that still leaves the question unanswered, what is stopping a legitimate business of modern firearms from moving to Negav and decimate the blades and bows business?
This is also a good point, as long as it is regulated and kept an eye on, I can't see any reason why the Negav government would have a problem with it for the most part.

After all, it's not like a average person is going to be able to afford high grade assult rifles and grenade launchers. At best we are looking at revolvers, shotguns and hunting rifles. These arn't weapons that are going to suddenly make a citizen powerful enougth to topple empires, they arn't going to run amok in Felarya with these weapons taking down gaint predators. But at least when it comes to equal sized targets at least they won't be fiddling about with gun powder.

If the Magiocrats and Vishmitals, who are surposed to be "powerful mages" and "A very advanced race" find Negav citizens packing six shooters and boomsticks scary enougth to go out of their way to put an complete ban on imports. Then it kinda makes it look like that the Negav government isn't all that strong and are infact insecure about their own superiority.
I have to agree with Darkone on this, anyone that has enough imagination to think past little ray guns for futuristic technology can see that you can increase the range of current weapons, go for rail gun technology(hand held at that), sonic weaponry, directed energy weapons(Like a phaser, a more realistic version of a sci-fi weapon), hell you can make a handheld minigun if you wanted, it's advanced technology, the limit is only your imagination and to be honest, no matter how you slice it, your weapon is going to beat a six-gun or an EXTREMELY short range shotgun...
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:26 pm

Shady Knight wrote:
But that still leaves the question unanswered, what is stopping a legitimate business of modern firearms from moving to Negav and decimate the blades and bows business?
Well honestly, I can't think of anything. Though obviously Negav is meant to be lower tech, and the way it is now. So things may have to be modified in order to come up with a reasonable explanation of why advanced technology hasn't taken over everything. Lemme try and ramble my way to an answer.

Though if we remember currency, Negavians are quite paranoid about foreign concepts like paper money, and we might also extend that to mechanized mass production, and probably guns. If they don't know how to make it themselves, they probably wont trust it, no matter where it comes from. Paranoia likely comes from the looming threat of predators, and especially because Dusk Nymphs can get into the city. (Unless that was changed) I don't know how that last part particularly relates tho.

Then there's the advanced tech groups like the vishmitals. They'd hoard all the tech for themselves, could be part of the reason why the Magiocrats don't trust them much. Also the governments on the other side of the world might not like sharing their secrets. Negav is a place where their enemies could go to learn their secrets too. You know, since its home to anyone who can access that portal.

Unfortunately we cant just come up with a disaster scenario that is the reason for some kind of "no advanced tech" regulation, because that'd also effect the vishmitals too. We can't have that.

The only other thing I could think of is a choice that they don't want the advanced guns. It's not a very good reason though. Perhaps if more advanced tech (computer systems?) is/are somehow altered or degraded in some way upon going through the portal? You'd have to take it across in pieces, then assemble it on the other side. Maybe due in part because the Berlerim Portal is not perfect, like the Ur-Sagol Portal is. I think that's a stretch though. There has to be some kind of process, like how shipment is altered or something else that makes getting super advanced tech through such a pain in the ass that its only worth it in order for the military to have it. Or obscenely rich Negavians. Wealth for the sake of wealth!

There's my thoughts. Don't know how good any of them are, I was just trying to lay it down on the table. Hopefully it helps spark an answer from someone who is willing to think more in depth at the moment than this.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:05 pm

I think Bael is on the right track here. Karbo stated that Negavians had a cultural element that made them like swords and bows better. Parents teach their sons the use of the sword and bow as part of the tradition, maybe even despising gun-users as cowards who can't fight properly (or elegantly if you refer to higher-tierspeople). Another fact is that everyone knows how a sword or a bow works, but a gun is quite more complex and would make people uneasy. There could also be rumours of guns exploding in people's hands fruit of the little knowledge the general Negavian has about how they work.

Besides, sword and bowmaking is probably a local craft, while guns are always made outside of Negav. Another reason to distrust them. That also arises the problem of maintenance; you can easily take care of the maintenance of your sword or bow if it's something minor, but you'll always need to find a specialised person if your weapon makes strange noises (minor) or needs repairs (major). A foreign merchant can sell you cheap guns, but they won't be there for you if something breaks. Maybe that's the reason why firearms in Lower Tier shops are more expensive than blades? Maybe they come with a periodic maintenance service included, or something.

The main market I see for firearms are the off-world adventurers. They come with their own preferences about weapons and such, but they are more likely to buy guns that their Negavian counterparts. I can also perfectly see the Vishmitals taking or sending back the most advanced weapons so that they don't fall in the hands of the Magiocrats and tips the balance on their favour.


Another thing that comes to mind is, simple weapons probably get along better with magic, since they make it quite easy to add magical effects on the run to your attacks while fighting. Imbuing a more complex structure with magic would be a bit tricky, moreso in the middle of a fight.

And just to throw in some last thoughts, the general landscape in Felarya is a jungle. With the sheer amount of plants and undergrowth, it'll be hard to get a clean shot even when the trees leave a lot of space between them.  Confrontation would usually call for close quarters, in which a gun would do nicely, but a sword would as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:30 pm

Ilceren wrote:
Parents teach their sons the use of the sword and bow as part of the tradition, maybe even despising gun-users as cowards who can't fight properly (or elegantly if you refer to higher-tierspeople).
The people who makes this kind of speech belongs to the upper-class and bows and crossbows were despised for the same reason even if they were proven more practical.

Ilceren wrote:
Another fact is that everyone knows how a sword or a bow works, but a gun is quite more complex and would make people uneasy.
The point firearms is more complex than bow and arrow it's the opposite. Ancient bows required many years of training which made archers were an elite groups. Good swords are expensive to make. Bow and arrows were the weapons of choice of elite class or higher class. The commoners standard gears were weapons which can be used as tools like axes,daggers, knife, maces, hammers, polearms, crossbow etc...

Early firearms were adopted due to it was easy to be trained despite their rate of fire and power were lower than crossbow and arrow. They were cheaper and simpler weapons.

Ilceren wrote:
Besides, sword and bowmaking is probably a local craft, while guns are always made outside of Negav. Another reason to distrust them. That also arises the problem of maintenance; you can easily take care of the maintenance of your sword or bow if it's something minor, but you'll always need to find a specialised person if your weapon makes strange noises (minor) or needs repairs (major). A foreign merchant can sell you cheap guns, but they won't be there for you if something breaks. Maybe that's the reason why firearms in Lower Tier shops are more expensive than blades? Maybe they come with a periodic maintenance service included, or something.
Guns are not cars, they can be maintained by their owners and they can be made locally by local blacksmith. Speaking of blacksmith when your sword is damaged you needed one. If you think to maintain sword consist you have just to prevent the blade to be sharped and to not rust you forget they can be damaged or breaks in battle. Swords and bows at their time were used mostly by elite group because this kind of weapons were expansive and required skills you master after many years of training.

Ilceren wrote:
Another thing that comes to mind is, simple weapons probably get along better with magic, since they make it quite easy to add magical effects on the run to your attacks while fighting. Imbuing a more complex structure with magic would be a bit tricky, moreso in the middle of a fight.
Most of the time gun were used as magic weapon it was their bullets which were enchanted not the weapon itself, except was the gun was able to create its own bullets.

Ilceren wrote:
And just to throw in some last thoughts, the general landscape in Felarya is a jungle. With the sheer amount of plants and undergrowth, it'll be hard to get a clean shot even when the trees leave a lot of space between them.  Confrontation would usually call for close quarters, in which a gun would do nicely, but a sword would as well.
It's not for nothing the Bayonet was created.

Saying bows and swords are more practical than guns because they are ancient weapons is false without acknowledging these weapons were mostly used by small elitist groups and it's the main reason they were popular in fictions. But if you want to speak about the weapons of choices of the commoners in Negav, axes, knives, machete, crossbows , spears, daggers, etc are because they required few skills, can be used as survival tools and not only for fighting, are cheaper and easier to made.

Edit: after posting this post, I browse the weapons section of the wiki and I see this:
wiki wrote:
Fairy Duster

A shotgun designed as a last ditch defense against fairies, though it's wide barrel makes it look more like a blunderbuss. Basically, it shoots out tons of small explosive fragments, which further detonate forwards while in mid air. It's not the most forceful gun but it has a wide arc of spray and creates tons and tons of shrapnel, the hope being that you manage to rip up a fairies wings. Against small fairies the idea is that there is too much shrapnel for them to dodge and against large fairies, it's pretty hard to miss. You only really get one try at this, though, as the fairies usually only get caught off guard by this once.
wiki wrote:
0-VM Hot Rifle

Another weapon used by the Vishmitals, the 0-VM is a modification of existing laser rifles. Contrary to most laser rifles though, it's short and very portable, the size of a carbine. It fires a short, very focused blast of microwaves. Although it does little impact damage, it burns very, very hot for a few seconds on impact. It is hot enough to give predators some serious, though small burns. The pain is such that a whole troop using these could drive a predator off, and a good shot will cause a predator to immediately yank back their hand. It's also pretty effective against fairy wings with their thin membranes. Soldiers jokingly refer to the gun as "Oven Guns" or "Stovetop Rifles".
There are already guns in Negav and efficient against predators even if they are less lethal than standard firearms.


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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:24 am

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
Ilceren wrote:
Parents teach their sons the use of the sword and bow as part of the tradition, maybe even despising gun-users as cowards who can't fight properly (or elegantly if you refer to higher-tierspeople).
The people who makes this kind of speech belongs to the upper-class and bows and crossbows were despised for the same reason even if they were proven more practical.
Of course, such speech is high-class, but parents of low classes would still teach their sons to defend themselves and be wary of firearms. It was not me who stated that Negavians were culturally reticent to use them. On the other hand, it can be true that bows and crossbows were despised earlier, but society is hypocritical and, when the third force appears (firearms) they would gladly accept bows and despise the guns. Something new, even if incredibly practical, is always met with resistance at first.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
Ilceren wrote:
Another fact is that everyone knows how a sword or a bow works, but a gun is quite more complex and would make people uneasy.
The point firearms is more complex than bow and arrow it's the opposite. Ancient bows required many years of training which made archers were an elite groups. Good swords are expensive to make. Bow and arrows were the weapons of choice of elite class or higher class. The commoners standard gears were weapons which can be used as tools like axes,daggers, knife, maces, hammers, polearms, crossbow etc...
My point isn't in the training time required, but in the complexity of the artifact. A normal person can see why a sword cuts and how a bow can shoot arrows, but it's not evident why pulling a trigger makes a bullet shoot. Also, swords and bows are cheap, which would most likely mean that commoners would probably have one, even if they aren't that well trained in their use.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
Early firearms were adopted due to it was easy to be trained despite their rate of fire and power were lower than crossbow and arrow. They were cheaper and simpler weapons.
Cheaper maybe, but not simpler. You mean ease of use. A bow is a stick with a string, while an ancient gun is a metal tube with a trigger and a hammer and an incandescent string and a... ¿see?

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
Guns are not cars, they can be maintained by their owners and they can be made locally by local blacksmith.
You'll need quite a bit of training for that, something a random merchant from another world won't give you. With swords and bows it's some really basic maintenance anyone can tell you. Crossbows are more tricky. On another hand, yes, they can be done locally, but that doesn't mean they are. First you have Negavian culture, then you have those foreign merchants bringing in loads of mass-produced guns. You're better off with repairs than construction.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
Speaking of blacksmith when your sword is damaged you needed one. If you think to maintain sword consist you have just to prevent the blade to be sharped and to not rust you forget they can be damaged or breaks in battle. Swords and bows at their time were used mostly by elite group because this kind of weapons were expansive and required skills you master after many years of training.
Of course, anything can break. I mentioned minor maintenance when talking about swords, not major problems. However, here in Felarya, swords and bows are cheap. Only the elite would master swords and bows, but that doesn't mean that commoners don't have them. You don't need to master them in order to use them. The same goes for firearms, too, but they are supposed to be more expensive.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
Most of the time gun were used as magic weapon it was their bullets which were enchanted not the weapon itself, except was the gun was able to create its own bullets.
Yeah, but bullets pose some problems. First, if you have a sub-machine gun type of weapon, you'll have a lot of trouble to enchant them all. Second is when you do enchant them; when being fired you'll have quite a hard time concentrating your magic on them, due to the amazing speed and small size, while enchanting them when inside the weapon means trouble getting your magic to the bullet because it's occluded and, again, very small. Swords and arrows are in plain sight and big enough to target them easily while not taking your mind completely away from the fight.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
Saying bows and swords are more practical than guns because they are ancient weapons is false [...]
True that.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
[...] without acknowledging these weapons were mostly used by small elitist groups and it's the main reason they were popular in fictions. But if you want to speak about the weapons of choices of the commoners in Negav, axes, knives, machete, crossbows , spears, daggers, etc are because they required few skills, can be used as survival tools and not only for fighting, are cheaper and easier to made.
Not so true. They were used by elitist groups because they were expensive, and probably becuase there were restrictions on who could use what weapon. A sword was seen as a knight's possesion, and commoners with one were assumed to have stolen them and hereby condemned. You don't have that in Felarya, swords are cheap, and while one may not master them, they are on par with the instinctual use of axes, hammers and any other tool you use for combat while untrained. Bows are more difficult, but that doesn't stop people from trying.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
Edit: after posting this post, I browse the weapons section of the wiki and I see this:
wiki wrote:
Fairy Duster

A shotgun designed as a last ditch defense against fairies, though it's wide barrel makes it look more like a blunderbuss. Basically, it shoots out tons of small explosive fragments, which further detonate forwards while in mid air. It's not the most forceful gun but it has a wide arc of spray and creates tons and tons of shrapnel, the hope being that you manage to rip up a fairies wings. Against small fairies the idea is that there is too much shrapnel for them to dodge and against large fairies, it's pretty hard to miss. You only really get one try at this, though, as the fairies usually only get caught off guard by this once.
wiki wrote:
0-VM Hot Rifle

Another weapon used by the Vishmitals, the 0-VM is a modification of existing laser rifles. Contrary to most laser rifles though, it's short and very portable, the size of a carbine. It fires a short, very focused blast of microwaves. Although it does little impact damage, it burns very, very hot for a few seconds on impact. It is hot enough to give predators some serious, though small burns. The pain is such that a whole troop using these could drive a predator off, and a good shot will cause a predator to immediately yank back their hand. It's also pretty effective against fairy wings with their thin membranes. Soldiers jokingly refer to the gun as "Oven Guns" or "Stovetop Rifles".
There are already guns in Negav and efficient against predators even if they are less lethal than standard firearms.
Indeed, but as someone stated before, the point of this thread isn't "Why are there no firearms in Negav" but "Why isn't everyone in Negav using firearms already".

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:55 am

I'm glad the discussion is taking off as it is and I believe we may be closing in on an answer. However, I have a few problems with what has been said. For starters, Negav having a bit of a restriction on firearms makes sense due to being governed by a council of people adept with magic and lower-technology rather than scientific and technological breakthrough like the Vishmitals are. I can also see Negavians in general being more accustomed to lower tech, but that's just it, Negavians. Recall that Karbo said in another thread that guns are not too rare, but certainly less common than blades and bows in the Lower District. The Lower District is mostly inhabited by adventurers who came from other worlds, thus they would have almost none of the cultural upbringing Negavians have, and thus wouldn't necessarily have the bias against guns Negavians may harbor. What proves it is the simple statement "not too rare", which means there is definitely a market for guns. A niche market, sure, but a market nonetheless.

Unfortunately, as we have no clear idea of the kinds of worlds Negav commonly trade with, we're once again back to square one, a market that deals with modern firearms could very well use its world's lower manufacturing costs to sell the weapons at a competitive price. Yes, I am well aware that adventurers also have their own cultural upbringings, and that some of them have no idea what a firearm is and would distrust it. But we can all agree that firearms, particularly modern firearms, are much better weapons than any swords and bows. Yes, I am also aware of enchanted weapons, but unless the enchantments can overcome the natural shortcomings of the weapons, like making the sword shoot laser beams, and the bow easy to learn and use, a modern gun like the AK-47 would outshine them all ostill, and such enchantments would probably be insanely expensive, if you can even find someone who can give the weapons such enchantments. Firearms are already a lot more expensive as they are according to Karb, which would imply they have a pricey manufacturing cost, and one of the only reasons I can think of is that parts come from worlds where they don't mass produce themselves, as Bael said, which means they would be of lower technology too.

But that is only speculation until Karbo decides to give us a definitive answer. For my money, and I am getting ahead of myself, I think the Fairy Duster is the key why there is a market of blades and bows alongside firearms, and why the former is more common than the latter. When you get down to it, the Fairy Duster is a specialized weapon. It's effective only against small targets or very fragile ones, like the wings of a fairy, as real birdshots are. You can see how most people would favor a more versatile weapon like a sword or a bow, but at the same time, given the setting Felarya is, you can also see why a Fairy Duster would be a handy thing to carry around just in case. I have been toying with the idea of an elephant gun made to injure giants with the same principle of a specialized firearm that is effective against some of the dangers Felarya is known for at the cost of versatility, and I don't see why such firearms wouldn't be what is commonly sold.

You may have noticed I didn't bring up the Hot Rifle and the answer is simple. It's a Vishmital weapon, made by the Vishmitals, for the Vishmitals. Let me remind you that their end goal is to revive their fallen empire and they use Negav as a base of operation to achieve that end. You may think "Well, they could sell their hot rifles to adventurers and make a profit out of it", and it's true, if firearms weren't a niche market. Since they're allegedly very expensive, very few people would be able to afford them, so they wouldn't get much of a profit out of them. So it's much better for the Vishmitals to keep the hot rifles for their own operations and to assist the Isolon Fist, cause if they fall, the Vishmitals go down with them.

Just to correct some things, gwada, when Ilceren says that guns are more complex than swords and bows, he means more complex to make. Yes, I know both swords and bows are also difficult to make even for skillful blacksmiths and bowyers, but of the three, which one has the most interlocking parts that comprise the finished product? As for enchanting guns and bullets, Ilceren, are you sure about that? It says nowhere that guns are more complex to enchant and we don't know what the process for enchanting a weapon, or even crafting a magic weapon is like. They could very well be as easy to enchant as a crossbow.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:28 am

Ilceren wrote:
My point isn't in the training time required, but in the complexity of the artifact. A normal person can see why a sword cuts and how a bow can shoot arrows, but it's not evident why pulling a trigger makes a bullet shoot. Also, swords and bows are cheap, which would most likely mean that commoners would probably have one, even if they aren't that well trained in their use.
Sowrds and arrows have never been cheap weapons in their time due to they required high quality material.

Ilceren wrote:
Cheaper maybe, but not simpler. You mean ease of use. A bow is a stick with a string, while an ancient gun is a metal tube with a trigger and a hammer and an incandescent string and a... ¿see?
The more powerfull bow are composite bows which are made with different layer of material which are not only wood. The strongest wooden bow is the longbow, their owner were trained since childhood. As I said again it's a proven fact guns are easier to use than bow and sword.

Ilceren wrote:
You'll need quite a bit of training for that, something a random merchant from another world won't give you. With swords and bows it's some really basic maintenance anyone can tell you. Crossbows are more tricky. On another hand, yes, they can be done locally, but that doesn't mean they are. First you have Negavian culture, then you have those foreign merchants bringing in loads of mass-produced guns. You're better off with repairs than construction.
Story of local production of gun by reverse engineering foreign guns already happened

Ilceren wrote:
Yeah, but bullets pose some problems. First, if you have a sub-machine gun type of weapon, you'll have a lot of trouble to enchant them all. Second is when you do enchant them; when being fired you'll have quite a hard time concentrating your magic on them, due to the amazing speed and small size, while enchanting them when inside the weapon means trouble getting your magic to the bullet because it's occluded and, again, very small. Swords and arrows are in plain sight and big enough to target them easily while not taking your mind completely away from the fight.
I have some doubt about your claim as more complex mechanism like Air implosion Device are made by magic.

Ilceren wrote:
Not so true. They were used by elitist groups because they were expensive, and probably becuase there were restrictions on who could use what weapon. A sword was seen as a knight's possesion, and commoners with one were assumed to have stolen them and hereby condemned.
you're completely wrong, in ancient time fencing and archery was elitist due to they required long time of training, and swords were expansive to make due to the quality of metal they required.

Ilceren wrote:
You don't have that in Felarya, swords are cheap, and while one may not master them, they are on par with the instinctual use of axes, hammers and any other tool you use for combat while untrained. Bows are more difficult, but that doesn't stop people from trying.
Here what you have when untrained people used a sword, the way he thinks it's work:

Swords and bows can look simple but they are tricky to use, fencing and archery are not something you can reproduce easily without a proper training, that's why they were used by a small and elite group.

Ilceren wrote:
ndeed, but as someone stated before, the point of this thread isn't "Why are there no firearms in Negav" but "Why isn't everyone in Negav using firearms already".
They are already in used one by the current the military faction, and the other one can be used by anyone who want to survive to a fairy.

Shady Knight wrote:
Just to correct some things, gwada, when Ilceren says that guns are more complex than swords and bows, he means more complex to make.

No guns are simpler to make than sword. I speak about both conception and mastery.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:26 am

Yes, gwada, cut down the point I made to try to make yours look stronger. That's how you argue like a true politician. Recall what I said afterwards. "Yes, I know both swords and bows are also difficult to make even for skillful blacksmiths and bowyers, but of the three, which one has the most interlocking parts that comprise the finished product?" Don't dodge that question. A gun is more complex to craft due to many interlocking parts forming its mechanism, made all the more complex with modern firearms. As suggested, such wouldn't be common knowledge among typical Negavians. Yes, a sword is more than just a metal blade on an handle with a cross-shaped guard, but it still has less components than a gun. I expect you to purposefully omit that part to try to make your next rebuttal look strong.

But back on track, your little back and forth with Ilceren is very cute, but here's the problem: it's irrelevant. Recall that this is a fictional world and that it obeys its own rules. Your talk about necessiting a lot of training to use a sword or a bow is true, but that it costs a lot due to the material used is not in the context of Felarya. Since this is Felarya and Karbo said that swords and stuff aren't very expensive, we can all come to the conclusion that materials to make swords and bows are easy to come by, thus aren't very expensive to make and sell. Recall that Karbo also suggested the idea that the materials for guns, most likely talking about gunpowder and perhaps lead for the bullets, are not so easy to come by. Similarly, your talk about elitism doesn't matter in this thread because it's not important to the discussion at hand and we can assume that if a character is adept with a bow or a sword in a story it's because they trained a lot with it. You two can argue about that all you want, it won't get you an answer to what the point of this thread is about.

You're taking the dicussion that had yet to receive a definitive answer off-track: why hasn't people from more advanced worlds come to Negav, made a market of modern firearms using its world's cheaper manufacturing costs and more abundant resources to reduce price, and compete with the blades and bow business?

One last thing, I know I'm not a mod, but I think you should stop with the many tiny quote boxes, it's unnecessary, especially if you are answering recent posts.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:01 am

Some specific comments need specific answers sometimes, Shady, but it's true, we're going overboard with that. I'll refrain.

Since gwada is using examples, I think I'll also use one. To your statement that "You need extensive training to use a sword porperly", I'll ask "Then, from who did the first sword master get his training?". A random guy (specially one that's used to seeing guns and not swords) may break a sword, but another random guy may develop a perfectly fine and powerful sword style just by practicing, with no training. Drop the specifics and go for the general rule. A single example doesn't prove my point wrong.

Besides, with the gunsmith thing, I made a point of him being unable to outcompete random merchants with mass-produced firearms, not that he would be unable to make one.

I don't know what has an AID to do with enchanting bullets and swords mid-fight. That is a pre-made magical artifact.

For this one, I need a quote:

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
Ilçeren wrote:
Indeed, but as someone stated before, the point of this thread isn't "Why are there no firearms in Negav" but "Why isn't everyone in Negav using firearms already".
They are already in used one by the current the military faction, and the other one can be used by anyone who want to survive to a fairy.
I don't see where I have said that wasn't the case. Those guns can be used and are used for that, right. But that's not the point.

I must go and leave this incomplete, but I'll be back tonight for the answer and to elaborate a bit more on weapon enchantment and some more things.

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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:32 am

Shady Knight wrote:
Yes, gwada, cut down the point I made to try to make yours look stronger.  That's how you argue like a true politician.  Recall what I said afterwards.  "Yes, I know both swords and bows are also difficult to make even for skillful blacksmiths and bowyers, but of the three, which one has the most interlocking parts that comprise the finished product?"  Don't dodge that question.  A gun is more complex to craft due to many interlocking parts forming its mechanism, made all the more complex with modern firearms.  As suggested, such wouldn't be common knowledge among typical Negavians.  Yes, a sword is more than just a metal blade on an handle with a cross-shaped guard, but it still has less components than a gun.  I expect you to purposefully omit that part to try to make your next rebuttal look strong.
When you posted your answer I was writing my answer to Ilceren, I quote this specific part not to argue as a politician but to make my stand clears on the questions. Before you start assume things I didn't say. I will be clear. I know what are swords, bows and a guns. I know their strenght and weakness, and the complexity behind their creation. Even if you made swords cheaper, already cheaper blade weapons like knife, spears,daggers, axes which were favoured by commoners to useful in your everyday life and simpler to use will still more common.

Shady Knight wrote:
But back on track, your little back and forth with Ilceren is very cute, but here's the problem: it's irrelevant.  Recall that this is a fictional world and that it obeys its own rules.  Your talk about necessiting a lot of training to use a sword or a bow is true, but that it costs a lot due to the material used is not in the context of Felarya.  Since this is Felarya and Karbo said that swords and stuff aren't very expensive, we can all come to the conclusion that materials to make swords and bows are easy to come by, thus aren't very expensive to make and sell. Recall that Karbo also suggested the idea that the materials for guns, most likely talking about gunpowder and perhaps lead for the bullets, are not so easy to come by.  Similarly, your talk about elitism doesn't matter in this thread because it's not important to the discussion at hand and we can assume that if a character is adept with a bow or a sword in a story it's because they trained a lot with it.  You two can argue about that all you want, it won't get you an answer to what the point of this thread is about.
Even if we made the material cheap it won't make disappear the required training to deal with this kind of specificity, I know if a character used a sword or a bow it's because it has been trained but it doesn't imply all the negavians are skilled archers or fencers. Even if you create schools of fencing or archery it won't change that because they will be private and costs money. About guns, substitute can be made or developed to avoid using gun powder and lead the hot rifle is a good example. Even in fictional fantasy worlds where gun existed they were not affected by these limitations I don't see why it will be hold in Felarya specifically.

Shady Knight wrote:
You're taking the dicussion that had yet to receive a definitive answer off-track: why hasn't people from more advanced worlds come to Negav, made a market of modern firearms using its world's cheaper manufacturing costs and more abundant resources to reduce price, and compete with the blades and bow business?
Because you can have tax on imported goods and weapons regulations policies affecting bows,swords and guns because they are designed to kill human sized target first. Which you need to be special authorisation to carry in town a fire enchanted sword or an assault rifle in town ie mercenaries without representing a threat to the population. Fairy duster and hot rifles have a free pass because they are not lethal for human sized target and can be classified have self-defence weapon against Predator. You can add people have a cultural preference if you want but the main reason is a strict weapons regulations law inside the town.

Here a good example of good commoner weapon better than any swords, bows or guns, the tree runner axes because it can be used as a practical tool other than in combat it can have any free pass on any regulation law. You can argue bow can be used for hunting but you don't hunt your food inside a city and it's a killing tool. You will still need authorisation ie hunting licence to carry it inside the town because hunting arrows contain poison.

Shady Knight wrote:
One last thing, I know I'm not a mod, but I think you should stop with the many tiny quote boxes, it's unnecessary, especially if you are answering recent posts.
I used mini quote when I want to answer to specific points I disagree with, using a large and general answer can be easily misinterpreted to you are disagree with all my post without acknowledging why I'm disagree.

Ilceren wrote:

Since gwada is using examples, I think I'll also use one. To your statement that "You need extensive training to use a sword porperly", I'll ask "Then, from who did the first sword master get his training?". A random guy (specially one that's used to seeing guns and not swords) may break a sword, but another random guy may develop a perfectly fine and powerful sword style just by practicing, with no training. Drop the specifics and go for the general rule. A single example doesn't prove my point wrong.
First I was writing my answer to shady when you posted your answer before people argue with the fact I use small quote.

This single example show just the sword which the most common in fiction ie the katana depicted able to cut anything with ease without required any skill all media and fictions included can be break if not used properly.

The first swords were made in bronze, they were short and used mainly to to stab they were most of the time derived from dagger (the khopesh is an exception but still used by the upper class) and secondary weapons to support the spears. They get longer with the discovery of iron even that they folded in battle and it's steel which makes them harder which. Even if they become versatile they were still secondary weapons behind the spears and any polearms which were the weapons of choice of the commoners and regular infantry. But due to their difficulty to craft and master they were privileged by higher class who have the money to afford them and to pay them.

The random guy won't develop from nowhere a perfect fencing by practising without learning the specificity of the blade he used and after it damaged it during real fight situation, training weapon were made to prevent that. It will still take year before he develops his own fencing skills based on his accumulated experienced. It's just the harder path.

Ilceren wrote:
I don't know what has an AID to do with enchanting bullets and swords mid-fight. That is a pre-made magical artifact.

The point with the AID is to shown a more complicated and advanced device can be made by magic. Arguing bullets cannot be enchanted because it's complex it's doubtful when you know far more complex thing exists and in fiction were magical gun exists the bullets were already enchanted at their creation or before they were shot.

To sum up my stand on the questions:
-Guns are not commons in Felarya due to cultural preference and strict weapons regulations law affecting sword and bows because they are weapons specific for battle. It's OK
-Telling sword and bows will become commons because they are cheap to made, forgetting you need a proper training which can take years and other cheaper bladed weapons which can be used as regular tools and are more efficient without a longer training is wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:01 pm

Buying a weapon and training with it are two different issues entirely. This thread is about a market of weapons, specifically firearms, not a market for training with the purchased weapon. Your point about training is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav Development: Firearms   Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:24 pm

Shady Knight wrote:
Buying a weapon and training with it are two different issues entirely.  This thread is about a market of weapons, specifically firearms, not a market for training with the purchased weapon.  Your point about training is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Except the low need of training was the selling point of firearms over swords and bows was they were easy to used even if they were not so great. Training can play a deciding factors. Buying a sword implied you have some knowledge or be trained to used them, it's the same for bow, unless you make collection or you want to be fooled by the merchants and end with something like this which is very common.

The fairy Duster can become quickly popular because it's efficient against a fairy even if it's not safe but still more but it gives a edge even if it's small against fairy than any swords and bows

PS: If I quoted you if to prevent someone post an answered when I was writing this posts


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