Negav Development: Firearms

I think what gwad was tying to say is...Really personal preference with marketing (Yes that maters In the marketing business, why do you think there is local shops).Ex. Why would I buy something if i'm not trained for or used to it when the other option of a toll is something that's been familiar with me probably since birth? So really it's not an entirely different issue, it makes sense at a business standpoint when your setting up shop and want to sell in a so-said town that would choose the battle between a sword or gun because of personal and cultural preferences effect what people would think be useful and generally practical to buy as I mentioned before in a different thread...How ever as I also mentioned before, it doesn't stop someone from bringing a new Variety of Firearm or a melee weapon when the city,town,or village maybe traditionally in a social aspect, accustomed and linked with one item or the other. That's why I like how Gwad mentioned "tree runner axes" because that a good example of both points at the bottom of his thread.

Shady Knight wrote:

Buying a weapon and training with it are two different issues entirely.  This thread is about a market of weapons, specifically firearms, not a market for training with the purchased weapon.  Your point about training is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Yes, but how much training a particular weapon requires will significantly effect the market of said weapon. Negav is quite a dangerous place, most people woulden't want to screw about training over a year just to effectly use a long bladed weapon. If there's something easier to use, then most will buy it.

needs effects demand, demand effects market.

The whole 'Cultural preferance' thing is unrealistic in my opinon, even Samarai wanted western man's firearms when they saw how effective they are. (Blooded corpses with bullets make quite an impression) There was nothing in Samarai culture or code that said they had to fight with swords, that's just 'Code of the warrior' bullshit that films and television made up.

Same with Native Americans, African tribes and so on. None of these cultures rejected guns out of princeable. They were more concerned with killing their enimies anyway possible.

Only morons like Douglas Haig (who was slow to aprove of tanks in trench warfare) would reject to new things...but this was a guy who seriously thought men on horses could beat machine guns....very few people are going to be that idiotic.

Gwada, stop arguing about how guns are superior. I don't know how many times Shady needs to repeat the point of this thread before we actually stop going off track from it.

Guns are powerful, and complex. There's many little parts that go with it to make it work, unlike a sword, which is a slab of metal which you heat and hammer repeatedly, and slip the pommel over. That's about 95% of the craftsmanship. Also, the fact that something is ancient is irrelevant. I don't know where you got that from.

Gwada, the whole answer to your problems are bias. Right now that's the most logical answer we have. It doesn't matter how much you argue the point. Guns are harder to put back together, harder to repair, far more complex. Its not just "pull trigger. bullet happens." Theres like four or five steps the gun goes through to get that reaction, where "swing, cut" is far simpler.

Negavians being paranoid about off world concepts is probably our best bet, in addition to the Magiocracy (you know being mages) prefer the power of magic, and dont want technology to undermine their authority. They are very concerned about their own power. This is evident. So is Negavians being paranoid. If it comes from off world (paper money being a current canon example) then it's not to be trusted.

When you're in the military you spend hours each day with your drill sergeant learning how a gun specifically functions, how it can be taken apart and put back together, and how different guns function to make them work better in specific scenarios. A gun is way way more complex you're making it out to be. It just has a more powerful result, but as Ilceren stated, when the entire world is covered in dense jungle, a gun in the end isn't more effective than a sword is. No matter what your weapon of choice in Felarya, it depends on how you use it.

"You can add people have a cultural preference if you want but the main reason is a strict weapons regulations law inside the town." I must disagree. Negavians all keep their weapons with them. Especially since they're sold inside the city as well. Several hundred thousand people all armed makes this impossible to enforce. I suspect duels are popular among the inhabitants as well. That'd be interesting.

Guns are something off worlders buy because they're more familiar with the technology (again, the market is there, but native Negavians are very unlikely to buy from them). This would probably also include fairy dusters (Fairies are far from your only concern in Felarya anyway) and whatever other guns exist. Seeing someone in Negav buy a gun probably screams "off worlder". Shady also mentioned materials that are easy to come by for swords and bows.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what worlds Negav is connected to at the moment. If we have to change things around after we find that out, then so be it. Lets just operate on what we know for the time being - however I do advise that if there are, say, 12 connected trading worlds, that only one or two of them be technologically advanced.

I vote that the answer has multiple levels to it:
1) Magiocracy - The current  governing body comprises of high level mages who will do anything to keep their power. They don't want foreign tech to undermine their authority, so heavily restrict imported tech as a result. They probably argue that what they have, and magi-tech (probably under their advisement) currently work just fine.

2) Bias - Negavians being distrustful works well with the setting. This would go not just for money, but as a general concept. Anything that comes off world or is too complex, in addition to various stories supporting their views add to the idea that they just don't like to buy guns. They're also loud, and it all depends on how you use your weapon in Felarya. Common sense dictates escape, not engagement. (lets face it, guns are used for the later. Swords can serve varying purposes in the wild, not just killing a creature.)

...I bet all purposes swords are a thing . Designed to be able to cut meat, foliage, maybe the bottom hilt can be enchanted with a heat rune to help start a fire, and there's probably more ideas one could implement.

People keep posting while I'm editing! Augh!

Ol' darkie has a point. I admit, I forgot that selling where people are better trained in something is better for the business. However, I think you guys forgot that the vast majority of shops that will sell weapons legally will be located in the Lower District, where adventurers, whom many are complete foreigners to Negav, perhaps Felarya entirely, are the people such weapons are marketed toward. This would imply that most adventurers come from less technologically advanced worlds, and thus have little familiarity toward guns. I'm okay with that and it would definitely give us a better idea of what kind of worlds Negav prefer to trade with, if that is true.

However, this is where Darkie's point and the idea of guns being easier to learn come in. Most Negavians aren't adventurers and probably aren't trained in combat. Let's say for the sake of argument that there is a market that sells modern firearms at a competitive price and that a group of Negavians wish to become adventurers for some reason, and that none of them are trained in fighting yet. Many would gravitate toward swords and crossbows because of cultural upbringing, but those who gravitate toward modern weaponries will find an undeniable truth, the modern weapons are much easier to become proficient at that than the sword and are much more powerful than the crossbow. It would only be a matter of time before more and more Negavian catches on to that fact and start gravitating toward those modern weapons.

That is, if Negav dabble in such trades, which is why I think the Fairy Duster and other such weapons yet to be listed in the wiki are such great compromises. They sacrifice the versatility conventional firearms for a service that one is bound to face when venturing outside the city walls. They would not be picked up as a weapon of choice, but since they are so easy to use and learn, those adventurers from less advanced worlds can easily employ them for the situation they call for.

Which, as a personal side-note, should make me rethink the idea of the elephant gun cause I just remembered that the recoil from a normal elephant gun alone can dislocate your shoulder if you're not well-trained in shooting.

Just remember though that anyone who's a kid in Negav (ie - raised in the city), whether you're a homeless streetrat, or have an actual family you are going to naturally develop a sense of fighting, whether its the "correct" way of wielding any particular weapon, or a style that's unique to you. That's what it means to live in such a dangerous society. Negav isn't at all safe like our precious cities. Negav probably makes Oakland, California look like a walk in the park.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

Gwada, stop arguing about how guns are superior. I don't know how many times Shady needs to repeat the point of this thread before we actually stop going off track from it.

I never say that and you completely missed my point and make assumption

Archmage_Bael wrote:

Guns are powerful, and complex. There's many little parts that go with it to make it work, unlike a sword, which is a slab of metal which you heat and hammer repeatedly, and slip the pommel over. That's about 95% of the craftsmanship. Also, the fact that something is ancient is irrelevant. I don't know where you got that from.

From a practical viewpoint gun have a edge on swords and bows not because of their power but to they were easy to used and can be crafted in low quality material.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

Gwada, the whole answer to your problems are bias. Right now that's the most logical answer we have. It doesn't matter how much you argue the point. Guns are harder to put back together, harder to repair, far more complex. Its not just "pull trigger. bullet happens." Theres like four or five steps the gun goes through to get that reaction, where "swing, cut" is far simpler.

you making assumptions about me about thing I didn't say. about the swing argument axes did it already better and they are cheaper and easier to made than swords. Bias will reinforce the idea swords and bows are privileged weapons of higher class people.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

Negavians being paranoid about off world concepts is probably our best bet, in addition to the Magiocracy (you know being mages) prefer the power of magic, and dont want technology to undermine their authority. They are very concerned about their own power. This is evident. So is Negavians being paranoid. If it comes from off world (paper money being a current canon example) then it's not to be trusted.

Paper money were not trusted because they are easy to falsified, it has nothing to do with the fact it comes from off world. Even if Negav printed their own money with a magical protection against falsification it won't be trusted.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

When you're in the military you spend hours each day with your drill sergeant learning how a gun specifically functions, how it can be taken apart and put back together, and how different guns function to make them work better in specific scenarios. A gun is way way more complex you're making it out to be. It just has a more powerful result, but as Ilceren stated, when the entire world is covered in dense jungle, a gun in the end isn't more effective than a sword is. No matter what your weapon of choice in Felarya, it depends on how you use it.

I never bring the point about power you pulled that from nowhere, both the guns are quotes are law compare to standard firearm. Military training maybe can take hours but fencing and archery can take month and years. And guns are already used in dance Jungles and Bayonet were made to use gun in close combat.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

"You can add people have a cultural preference if you want but the main reason is a strict weapons regulations law inside the town." I must disagree. Negavians all keep their weapons with them.Especially since they're sold inside the city as well. Several hundred thousand people all armed makes this impossible to enforce. I suspect duels are popular among the inhabitants as well. That'd be interesting.

That's why daggers and knives will have a upper edge in civilians areas because they can be hidden and suits better to narrow alleys fights were swinging swords or axes can become a huge drawbacks. Stabbing people are easier than trying to cut them, it's reason civilian swords were made for thrusting and less for cutting.
Duel doesn't need to involve weapons.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

Guns are something off worlders buy because they're more familiar with the technology (again, the market is there, but native Negavians are very unlikely to buy from them). This would probably also include fairy dusters (Fairies are far from your only concern in Felarya anyway) and whatever other guns exist. Seeing someone in Negav buy a gun probably screams "off worlder". Shady also mentioned materials that are easy to come by for swords and bows.

People in Felarya have bias about fairies is the first cause of death of humans, in addition of tales about a subspecies was able to infiltrate the wall of Negav. Everything against fairies is fine, fairies duster is harmful against fairies and not humans. And I mentioned they are already cheaper weapons than swords and bow. Guns started as cheap and easy weapons and they were not superiors to bow and arrow. It's only you who brings the argument of powers not me.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

Anyway, it doesn't matter what worlds Negav is connected to at the moment. If we have to change things around after we find that out, then so be it. Lets just operate on what we know for the time being - however I do advise that if there are, say, 12 connected trading worlds, that only one or two of them be technologically advanced.

I vote that the answer has multiple levels to it:
1) Magiocracy - The current  governing body comprises of high level mages who will do anything to keep their power. They don't want foreign tech to undermine their authority, so heavily restrict imported tech as a result. They probably argue that what they have, and magi-tech (probably under their advisement) currently work just fine.

It's a moot point because you don't have all the 12 world to be high advanced to bring guns to Negav even with one or two is enough.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

2) Bias - Negavians being distrustful works well with the setting. This would go not just for money, but as a general concept. Anything that comes off world or is too complex, in addition to various stories supporting their views add to the idea that they just don't like to buy guns. They're also loud, and it all depends on how you use your weapon in Felarya. Common sense dictates escape, not engagement. (lets face it, guns are used for the later. Swords can serve varying purposes in the wild, not just killing a creature.)

Blade weapons used for varying purposes exist and it's an axe which is cheaper easier to make than sword. The two guns are quoted are used for self defence the hot rifle is a laser and doesn't make noise, and the fairy duster is for sneak attack and not for frontal assault it's more a last resort weapons than a fighting one.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

...I bet all purposes swords are a thing . Designed to be able to cut meat, foliage, maybe the bottom hilt can be enchanted with a heat rune to help start a fire, and there's probably more ideas one could implement.

Knives already do the job fine

Archmage_Bael wrote:

Just remember though that anyone who's a kid in Negav (ie - raised in the city), whether you're a homeless streetrat, or have an actual family you are going to naturally develop a sense of fighting, whether its the "correct" way of wielding any particular weapon, or a style that's unique to you. That's what it means to live in such a dangerous society. Negav isn't at all safe like our precious cities. Negav probably makes Oakland, California look like a walk in the park.

A kid in Negav will kill you with a self made hidden blade to get closed enough to you to stab you or cut your throat that develop a proper fencing skills. Using swords will be more to find a way to climb into society than to survive because fencers are hold in high esteemed for their skills.

OK, everyone, slow down and stop. Things are starting to get annoying for everyone. Gwada, Ilcie, Bael, Shady, everyone, stop and cool down for a second.




Let's make a recap so people can follow the discussion more easily.


The point of this thread isn't to answer "Why do Negavians use swords when there are guns" but "why aren't people from a more technologically advanced world selling their advanced weapons in Negav's market at a very low price, taking advantage of their world's cheaper manufacturing cost, thus rendering all other forms of weapons like blades and bows obsolete?"





The following points have been considered.

-Paramecium suggested flamethrowers would be more popular. Shady countered that the risk of forest fire makes flamethrowers too dangerous.

-Sparky first suggested that Negavians favor stealth, and the kaboom of a gun isn't to their liking. Shady countered that giant predators are too rare for the risk of having one within earshot when you shoot to be important.

-Sparky first suggested that bullets are too much weight to lug around. Both Shady and I countered that they aren't.

-DarkOne pointed out that there can't be a restriction from the Belerim side, as they supply vishmitali and Isolon Fist troops.

-DarkOne also pointed out that there can't be a restriction from the Negavian side either, because they don't have enough fucks to give for what comes in or out of their gates. Shady replied that they have tools to keep track of what comes in and out, implying that they do, in fact, give a fuck.

-DarkOne suggested that maybe there are guns- mostly the cheap ones, because people can't buy assault rifles.

-Archmage-Bael pointed out that Negavians are distrustful of outside concepts like paper currency; they might be as distrustful of guns. Ravaging-Vixens, if I understood her right, suggested that shops don't stock up on those because the cultural bias is very strong. DarkOne countered that no culture in Earth has ever rejected guns out of principle [Except the Amish].

-Archmage-Bael pointed out that the Vishmitali need their supertech, so we can't have a complete ban on imports.

-Archmage-Bael suggested that Negavians just don't want advanced guns.

-Ilceren suggested that lack of proper facilities to make and repair guns, coupled with a lack of gun tradition, makes Negavians turn away from guns. Gwadahunter replied that guns are actually simpler than swords and bows to learn to use, and that none is easier to make than the others.

-Ilceren also suggested that it might not be easy to work magic on guns. Shady countered that we don't know that.

-Ilceren also suggested that guns might not be the best idea in the jungle. Gwadahunter replied that bayonets do their part there. Archmage-Bael clarified that it doesn't matter what's your weapon, just how you use it.

-Gwadahunter suggested a tax on guns since they're made to kill men.

-Shady pointed out that people will gravitate towards guns since they work better.

-Bael suggested there just aren't worlds that Negav or Belerim connect to that have gun factories. Gwada pointed out that if any single world contains enough tech to make guns, that's guns enough.



That's all that I've seen that seems relevant. Quote me wrong if I missed something, like I hadn't missed that point.

thank you Stabs.
Yes let's cool down a bit people. This thread is interesting and brought interesting questions and ideas so let's not bring it down with petty disputes and unpleasantness.

To answer the first question of the thread, I think the magiocrats are an obstacle to guns just flooding Negav in truckloads.  Many magiocrats are pretty conservative. And maybe they don't understand gun or find them a bit too dangerous for a mage. After all You can see a guy coming at you while brandishing a sword and you can raise your magical defenses quickly to counter him. With a gun... it's clearly more tricky.
As I see it, Magiocrats would be cautious of guns.  So even if they don't actively oppose them they are not going to make it easier for them to get in Negav. The fact they are distinctly more expensive could be because of some taxes imposed on them.

Then there is indeed a cultural element as to why there is more bladed weapons than guns in Negav. A blade is easy to "understand". You just stick the pointy end into your target. You know how it's made, how it works. And since it's close and personal it could also be considered more "manly".  After all, gladiators in the Jaslow Arena use bladed weapons for the spectacle and many of them are famous among the population.

Karbo wrote:

. A blade is easy to "understand". You just stick the pointy end into your target.

Only a select few swords actually work this way, such as the Rapier. Dueling and swordfighting are two separate arts. Now, I'm not an expert at dueling, but it's a more violent form of modern fencing. Swordfighting on the other hand is a complicated art that requires you to always be on your toes and read your opponent, because you can't simply stick the pointy end into your opponent(That's how Rapiers, Halberds and spears work), mainly because your opponent isn't going to simply stand there and let you, he's going to dodge and block and even parry your blow, anything to get you open to his attacks so he can swing, connect and pull or push his sword in order to cut. And trust me when I say this, anything larger than a short sword, isn't exactly balanced for thrusting unless it's double edged.

I think what people mean by "a sword is easy to understand", typical medieval knight swords I think, is that it doesn't take a genius to figure out how to attack with it, you just swing it toward your opponent. The real hard part, however, is learning how to swing it without leaving yourself open and everything else that comes with swordfighting.

Anyway, I have a new question to ask about firearms in Negav. Since the Magiocrats favor trades with magic-centric, lower tech worlds, how advanced are typical guns sold in the Lower Tier? For example, are they mostly early firearms like the musket and blunderbuss, old west firearms like the revolver and single-shot shotgun, or modern like the AK-47? Alternatively, would they be unique firearms like the Fairy Duster that's situational, but work very well against certain dangers you might encounter in the wild?

TO answer shady, I think most the guns you'll find more common are ones that are like WWI and WWII and the more modern being uncommon, talking about fire arms that is. I think that what karbo told me at one point or another in the past, if I'm right?

So, basically, what Karbo is saying is:

Spoiler:

Seems perfectly understandable.

The counter point I would like to make to Shady's comment that is related to Karbo's original comment. A thrust requires you to throw your momentum forward in order to do the most damage, you have to lean into the attack, especially for a sword that isn't meant for thrusting. This leaves you far too open and thus anyone with half a brain would move out of the way or block it and outright end the person that tried to stick the pointy end into them's life.

There are two things funny I noticed in this thread:

When Karbo said bladed weapons is popular: everyone assumed he spoke about swords. Swords are a type of blade not the only one. There are other types which were more common like knives, or spears whose the function was to stick the pointy end into the target.

About firearms we are not dealing with the ultra futuristic like plasma rifle, portable rail guns we saw in some shooter games or science fictions show but more the standard hunting rifles, shotgun and some self-defence handgun. We can have some assault rifles but they are more special orders from mercenaries or military groups.

PS: When I mean standard is the category the one who shout bullets not models to belong to a specific era or our current time.
PS1: The weapons I quoted are examples.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

When Karbo said bladed weapons is popular: everyone assumed he spoke about swords. Swords are a type of blade not the only one. There are other types which were more common like knives, or spears whose the function was to stick the pointy end into the target.

You forgot axes, which you don't stick the pointy end in. Halberds can be used that way, but were used for that ONLY for if they were going against cavalry. I can name others, but my point remains valid, gwada, thrusting your weapon leaves you wide open if you miss AND you move yourself closer to your opponent's weapon.

Neko and gwada, you're getting off-track again, this isn't a thread about the finer points of swordfighting. But about gwada's second point, I don't remember anywhere in this thread something about future weapons ever being an important topic. That just came out of left field.

Shady Knight wrote:

Neko and gwada, you're getting off-track again, this isn't a thread about the finer points of swordfighting.  But about gwada's second point, I don't remember anywhere in this thread something about future weapons ever being an important topic.  That just came out of left field.

My point is to disprove Karbo.

Please, let's stay on topic. We don't need to know how many other fun things you can do with swords other than stick the pointy end in your target. So enough about swords.



Karbo told us the answer he wants to go with. To quote Pendragon, there aren't guns in Negav in those amounts because MAGIC OBAMA IS TRYING TO TAKE AWAY MY GUNS. Also, Negavians have a RAGING HARD ON for swords.

This don't fly with me, I thought Negav was a melting pot of cultures and unless we're all willing to say all those cultures have the same sword fetish (I'd be all for it if it were a vore fetish, but a sword fetish? Why, that ain't the point of the setting) it doesn't make sense for a bunch of the meanest mofos in the universe not to use guns when they're put together just because they all got a kink for swords.



And much as I'd like to talk about my design for the magivolver, I guess I'm taking it elsewhere. For now, let's focus on Shady and this next question:

Shady-Knight wrote:

"Since the Magiocrats favor trades with magic-centric, lower tech worlds, how advanced are typical guns sold in the Lower Tier? For example, are they mostly early firearms like the musket and blunderbuss, old west firearms like the revolver and single-shot shotgun, or modern like the AK-47? Alternatively, would they be unique firearms like the Fairy Duster that's situational, but work very well against certain dangers you might encounter in the wild?"

Karbo answered that part for you, Stabs, in another thread. Negav mostly trades with worlds who have lower technology and focus more on magic. Makes sense since the city is ruled by a council of wizards. As such, it's only logical to assume the vast majority of off-world adventurers come from those worlds, and so have a predilection toward blades and other ancient weapons cause that's what they are familiar with. You're confusing Negavians with off-worlders, who are two completely different things. Karbo didn't rule out the existence of guns, he merely stated that they're not as common for a variety of reasons, one of which is the aformentioned wizard council being quite conservative of their low-tech upbringing.

By the way, I already have a design for a magic revolver: a magic wand. Think about Artifact Magic and how the power comes from the item and not person itself, what says a normal person can't use a magic wand that can cast certain spells, probably very specific and average at best, using a command word if it has been crafted that way?

Neko214 wrote:

You forgot axes, which you don't stick the pointy end in. Halberds can be used that way, but were used for that ONLY for if they were going against cavalry. I can name others, but my point remains valid, gwada, thrusting your weapon leaves you wide open if you miss AND you move yourself closer to your opponent's weapon.

They were examples and I was not specific.

@Sean my point about blade was not an answer about Neko but just a statement about this topic is blade weapons = swords only. My other points about future weapon is maybe a bit broad generalization about when firearms are discussed in the forum when people started to talk about ultra-futuristic people. I concede is a bit out topic.

To come back this thread in my previous post, the firearms I imagined you can see in Negav can be sold on the purpose of self-defence or hunting to try seduce the local population to buy them. Things like AK-47 or military weapons are more about people who haved already a good knowledge about firearms ie mercenaries groups or foreigners.

Yeah, please...no unpleasantness. It's one reason I didn't join in right away. Shady/Sean, you sounded a little too...definite. Too quick to declare a matter settled. Sort of has a way of discouraging others from contributing. Not trying to be mean, just pointing something out. I admire the passion, but that should translate into eagerness. This isn't a board room.

BTW, I bet there must be a thriving black market for stuff, to evade the taxes. A lot of it happening in the Negav Underground. But you have to cut deals with some shifty characters who'd just assume kill ya and take your skevols. Then there is the fact that most projectile weapons don't handle jungles very well. Magi-tech devices would be more expensive than non-magitech stuff, to be honest. Also, with magic only being available to those with the knack for it, there would be a demand for fairly normal tech and stuff.

I should post a list of books for people to read, to help inspire ideas. Lewis Mumford's "Technics and Civilization" is one I have been meaning to read, I am reading his "The City in History".

Me being too passionate is duly noted, however I don't understand what you mean by too quick to declare the matter settled. Can you explain yourself? By the way, books are nice and all, but relying on them isn't the answer. Just saying.

Shady Knight wrote:

Me being too passionate is duly noted, however I don't understand what you mean by too quick to declare the matter settled.  Can you explain yourself?  By the way, books are nice and all, but relying on them isn't the answer.  Just saying.

I praised your passion, relax.

I meant that you are too quick to say "Okay, we have it figured out." Never mind.

I never meant relying on these books, more like reading them for ideas and stuff.

That's because we have figured it out. None of us knows exactly what Negav is like except for Karbo, and he just answered why there's no flood of firearms in the city. I omitted the black market exactly because it deals in illegal activities. I was only focusing on legal activities.