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PostSubject: Melee combat in Felarya   Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:08 pm

Since in the other topic, according to Karbo, most people think that melee weapons are simple as hell, just stick the pointy end of any bladed weapon in order to win. I know Felarya isn't a warzone, or anything where big wars come into play but let's say the common scuffle in the Negav Underground. Well you would assume that some people have training that's greater than stick the pointy end into my enemy, and not everyone carries around a halberd, pike, lance, spear, sai, dagger and other melee weapon designed, purely for piercing.

So the question is, what kind of weapons would they use and how they would use it, because let me tell you this, trying to stick the pointy end of a weapon into someone that has a brain larger than the size of a walnut, will invariably attempt to block or dodge the weapon. This puts you in a position that you cannot recover or defend from easily, and invariably end up bad for you.
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:31 pm

Neko214 wrote:
Since in the other topic, according to Karbo, most people think that melee weapons are simple as hell, just stick the pointy end of any bladed weapon in order to win..
ok I said that as an example, to make it clear the principles of a blade is easy and simple to understand .
I never said that using a blade is as simple as sticking a pointy end into a target. of course not.

Karbo wrote:
A blade is easy to "understand". You just stick the pointy end into your target. You know how it's made, how it works
There is a difference between easy to understand and easy to use.
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:09 pm

Karbo wrote:
Neko214 wrote:
Since in the other topic, according to Karbo, most people think that melee weapons are simple as hell, just stick the pointy end of any bladed weapon in order to win..
ok I said that as an example, to make it clear the principles of a blade is easy and simple to understand .
I never said that using a blade is as simple as sticking a pointy end into a target. of course not.

Karbo wrote:
A blade is easy to "understand". You just stick the pointy end into your target. You know how it's made, how it works
There is a difference between easy to understand and easy to use.
So I took it out of context, perhaps. But the point still stands, what kind of melee weapons and training would the people have in Felarya.
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:16 pm

Neko214 wrote:
what kind of melee weapons and training would the people have in Felarya.
Every kind you want there is no particular restriction but to be creative and imaginative.


Last edited by gwadahunter2222 on Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : adding "particular")
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:05 pm

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
Neko214 wrote:
what kind of melee weapons and training would the people have in Felarya.
Every kind you want there is no particular restriction but to be creative and imaginative.
That's the point of this thread, for people to come up with things Gwada...
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:12 pm

Oooohhh this sounds fun!

Well let's see, Maces are pretty tasty. And by that I mean the real small one handed maces, not the impossibly large ones that you see in fantasy films and video games. Maces are surposed to things you can quickly bludgeon over the head with ease.
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:27 am

Neko214 wrote:
That's the point of this thread, for people to come up with things Gwada...
If I'm getting this right, you want people to write what other kinds of weapons and styles they like to use besides the "mainstream" sword-axe-spear combo, isn't it?

Well, I always respected the rarely seen ball-and-chain mace (I can't remember the specific name right now). I find it a difficult weapon to use, so someone that masters it would look like an epic hero to me. I wanted to give it to a character at some point, but I haven't yet because I have to study the fighting style a bit more so I can be realistic.

Besides that, I also like the concept of attacking with your shield, but instead of a bash with the full body, using a spiked side of it as if it was a big, clawed gauntlet or something. Obviously less mobile than that, but in combination with another close-range weapon it can result in a balanced fighting style.

Now, if you wanted something more exotic, you have a whole load of oriental weapons at your disposal. Which I don't know if will be easily available in Negav.

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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:23 am

well, as for someone like me combat is COMPLETELY senseless, especially against preds, it would be a light one bladed ninja sword... Nothing more is needed
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:31 am

I've had a few ideas for my characters, myself, though I would like to note that I have never done much fact-checking on the validity of any of them. ^^; I focus on the creative aspects.

First and foremost we have my personality self-insert Nyaha, who likes to use clawed gauntlets, somewhat like the things this guy uses:

Spoiler:
 

He uses his fast reaction time, his long body shape, and natural athletic prowess as a neko to perform swift attacks, fakeouts, and move from offense to evasion on the fly when fighting close-range. He also likes to combine the use of these with his grappling claws, which are similar to the clawshots of Legend of Zelda fame, in order to perform long-range sweeping attacks, hit-and-run tactics, and to overall control the distance between his aggressor and himself. He can also use his sleeve-pocket dimension to turn attacks on him back against his opponent. For example, if someone threw a punch which he saw coming, he could position the open sleeve of his right arm in the path of the punch to catch it, then make the fist come out of his left sleeve pointed at his opponent's face or gut.

Then we have Taihaku, my tundra-born snow leopard neko, who, in close combat situations, uses a specialized jumonji-yari (cross spear) made entirely of magic-formed ice as her weapon of choice. Her version has a unique head designed to look like a traditional two-dimensional representation of a snowflake, with every branch a blade. She generally keeps her attacks varied between thrusts, short and wide horizontal swings, and attacks with her feet or the pole/butt of the spear, so as to not be too predictable. That said, her style is typically quite straightforward, waiting for her opponent to make the first move and then attempting to counter, and when she does make a move of her own, it usually comes out on the slower side due to, among other things, the weight of her clothing and the head of the spear. This also means she is more likely to directly guard against or parry attacks against her rather than attempt to evade them.

We also have Brine, who, when she gets properly motivated, can combine her nature magically-controlled seaweed strands and sharp, hook-shaped coral earrings to make makeshift hook-and-chain weapons, which she generally uses to attack from afar and, if possible, disable her opponent without hurting them too badly, which is typically achieved by wrapping them in seaweed after landing a blow. She tends to try to keep a decent distance between herself and her opponent, as, due to her weight, she tends to move slow, even in the water, and she doesn't have much combat experience overall, so she has a difficult time warding off direct attacks.

Kira is a character I've had many weapon ideas for, often inspired by other things. My most successful idea thus far has been her lightningrod mace, which would probably qualify as one of those impossibly large ones you see in video games. It features a telescopic pole that reaches 5' even when fully extended, on the end of which is a spiked ball around a foot and a half in diameter, not taking the spikes into account. It takes advantage of Kira's enhanced physical strength - while somewhat slow, it enables her to deliver a heck of a pounding. Because of the speed disadvantage, Kira generally plays defense in combat situations involving the mace, and attacks whenever she sees a good opening to do so. The mace's head can also be extended from the pole by a 12' long chain stored inside of it (if my math of fitting that length of chain inside a foot and a half of mace head is wrong, please correct me), allowing Kira to swing it around and use it at long-ranges. I've also been playing with the idea that it could attract different forms of concentrated magic, allowing Kira to use it to render some kinds of spells ineffectual in the mace's presence, but as of yet I haven't figured out how it would do this.

And most recently, we have my latest character Ethan, a magician living in Negav. He defends himself using his magic 'tricks', which involve the use of three base spells: levitation, size-shifting, and transmogrification. The main uniting factor of these spells is that they only work on inanimate objects, though each spell has its own independent shortcomings as well. Ethan has two things he always carries with him - a cane and at least one deck of playing cards. Using those three spells in differing combinations with these items allows Ethan to create a myriad of effects, from an extending cane for vaulting up and over things to a flying sword of doom to agress aggressors from afar.
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:23 am

Well Nyaha, while the clawed gauntlets and the snowflake spear have some issues, they're passable and I won't comment on them. However, the mace is another story. The purpose of a mace is to have a really heavy object that relies on its weight to deal damage and crush opponents even through their armour. So, having a pretty big, but hollow head is kind of pointless.

Yes, I know you have the chain inside so it's not what you'd say light, but when used in flail mode (the word I couldn't remember earlier, thanks Neko), you'd have a pretty much weightless head and a long, heavy chain. And 12 feet at that. If you don't have something that weights more than the chain at the end, it will be pretty difficult to handle because you don't have a source of momentum that keeps the chain extended. I suggest you to cut the chain in half or so and fill the gap with pure steel or lead so you get a bit more weight.

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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:13 am

Ilceren wrote:
Yes, I know you have the chain inside so it's not what you'd say light, but when used in flail mode (the word I couldn't remember earlier, thanks Neko), you'd have a pretty much weightless head and a long, heavy chain. And 12 feet at that. If you don't have something that weights more than the chain at the end, it will be pretty difficult to handle because you don't have a source of momentum that keeps the chain extended. I suggest you to cut the chain in half or so and fill the gap with pure steel or lead so you get a bit more weight.[/color]
Half of 12 feet? as in six foot? As in the size of a tall human? XD

I presume you meant Inches?
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:23 am

Nyaha wrote:
The mace's head can also be extended from the pole by a 12' long chain stored inside of it (if my math of fitting that length of chain inside a foot and a half of mace head is wrong, please correct me), allowing Kira to swing it around and use it at long-ranges.
If my eyes aren't playing tricks on me, 12' means 12 feet, so yes, I meant a chain as long as a human is tall. Nyaha seems to want it for the range. You'd need a good deal of strength to use it, but I don't know how strong Nyaha thinks his character is, so I wasn't going to take that into account.

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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:55 pm

Kira wears strength enhancing plates on her gloves, enchanted with stat increasing magic. This amplifies her strength by half of her standard for each plate she wears, so with two plates, that's around double her physical strength range. Without them, I'd say she's strong enough to lift about 180 pounds maximum, maybe more if she really puts a lot of extra emotion and effort into it. Of course, my estimates are solely that, as I know next to nothing about body building, muscle mass and how it's applied, and weightlifting. ^^; Ilceren raised a good point about the flail, though. I'll be sure to keep that in mind next time she uses it. A six foot chain does sound just as good, if not better, and it would leave more room to layer the ball's insides to make it heavier. I also think it provides a good balance there, too, with the ball being heavier and thus more damaging with the chain inside of it than it is when extended in flail mode.

I was wondering if you might be able to PM me the problems you see with the first two you mentioned, in case they're things I might want to take into consideration while writing them?
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:49 pm

Using a chain wouldn't be of much help. They're too cumbersome, and wont do enough damage to help you, not to mention many creatures are bigger, and more dense. They'd end up just carting you around, and it'd backfire. Claws could be useful though, I suppose. You'd have to take them off every time you need to use the bathroom though...XD

Maces are good for crushing armor. You could bludgeon someone upside the head with it, that'd be effective, but blunt weapons are primarily for what I already stated. Of course that'd be good for a larger pred, but even if you're in that situation you're already dead if all you have is a blunt weapon.

For melee, it's useful against the smaller stuff. You'd need something fast and light, not big like a Claymore. A shield might come in handy too if you're really good with it. So if you're up against smaller creatures, then thrusting weapons would be more useful. Spears and swords. A spear would be particularly effective though if you stick on the underside of the foot of a large creature. That'd make them reel. Then for smaller ones, you could actually kill them, and have your meal for the night if you're lost in the forest/jungle. Very Happy

I expect many people would have developed their own method of fighting with melee weapons, honestly. It's about knowing how to guard against attacks, and then counter attack, and also tracking their movements. All of my sword fights have been have been friendly and honorable, so that's as far as I can take it from personal experience Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:27 pm

Nah, it's not too serious, Nyaha. It's just something most of us tend to forget; thin and specially long things tend to break. The claws from the image you posted would break at the first parry, or even at the first strike if you use them for slashing instead of thrusting. They are too thin and too long. The same would go for a hollow design like the snowflake you suggested, or for those little blade teeth that look so cool in some swords. But of course, this is Felarya, and you could well say they are imbued with magic of some sort that makes them resist a good hammerin'. That's why I said the issues were minor and didn't stop on them.

Well, of course, you could also have used a magical macehead that weights as much as the wielder desires, so my earlier comment would also have been invalid, but I found this use of magic as less believable and went ahead to suggest you some changes.


What are you saying a Claymore is not good for, Bael? A creature your size, or one smaller than you?

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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:33 pm

A creature bigger than you. It'd still hurt, but be slower and less effective. Sorry if I didn't make things too clear.
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:17 pm

There are a number of instances where combining magic with melee combat could prove very effective. I've used one particular one that I liked with a concept character of mine - puppetry. Say you have a spell that will make an object levitate in the air, and allow you to control its movement, especially of separate parts of it at a time, at will. You take a hand puppet, stick some blades in its arms and maybe make its head thick and heavy, and you've got a pretty useful all-range weapon on you. Bonus points if the blades are hidden but can be forced into the open through the use of the spell. Wink You could also use a spell like that on an article of clothing, for example, a glove or gauntlet, which would levitate in the air where you please and mimic the movements of your hand. You could have it take hold of a regular weapon, like a sword, only you can now use it from a distance because of your spell! Viola! ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:50 pm

If you think a Claymore looks like the big sword in this picture : It's a ceremonial sword, the real ones used in combat are the two small.

About two handed swords here a demonstration made by people who are the opposite of Conan the Barbarian.



This kind of weapon can be used as a traditional cutting and trusting by using half-sword technique. But the blade was not only part used in combat, the entire sword is a weapon.

skip to 0.37

And even if both fighters are in armour, you can still use it in closed combat.

skip to 1:40

If you used a sword in this proportion not the typical fantasy (I mean the Cloud's Buster sword or Guts'Dragon slayer) design it can be a good versatile tool. But it's harder to master contrary to the traditional spear+sword combo.
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:33 am

I already knew some of the advantages of two-handed swords, but then I watched this film in which a templar fights with one of those swords and starts making a combo by changing the sword and swinging it by the blade instead of the handle. I was frozen in awe at his skill and the world of possibilities that opened before me. So I appreciate that you bring this up for everyone to know, I'd really like to see a character using such a style since I consider myself too inexperienced to use it in a character of my own.

On the other hand, Nyaha, the two ways of using magic you mention are not for melee, but of using magic so you can fight safely at a range. Unless you use them as extra weapons at close-range, but that would need an extreme amount of concentration, I'd say. Normal ways to use magic at melee would be adding effects to your weapon/armour, blocking or obstructing blows, using self boosting magic and playing tricks on the enemy.

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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:19 am

I didn't know it had to be close range to be considered melee. O.o I thought it meant anything using direct attacks. And not to defend myself or anything, but if you think about it, it would be melee for the puppet. XD Anyway, sorry for my misunderstanding.
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:45 am

Nyaha wrote:
I didn't know it had to be close range to be considered melee. O.o I thought it meant anything using direct attacks. And not to defend myself or anything, but if you think about it, it would be melee for the puppet. XD Anyway, sorry for my misunderstanding.
Melee combat is anything where your hand is still attached to the weapon that hits your opponent. Using a spear is considered melee, whereas chucking it at your opponent is ranged combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:09 pm

Ohhh. Well then lemme field a few more ideas with that in mind.

Variable weapons. I think we've all seen them in some form or another. In my mind, it could be as simple as putting a telescopic expanding and retracting mechanism in as the hilt of a double-edged short sword, to make it switch between sword mode and polearm/spear mode. ^_^ Or maybe you could do this with some sort of spell that allows the hilt to shorten and elongate between a range of lengths. The trick could be done with one-sided hand axes, too. I can just see someone swinging a long-pole axe at someone, only for them to slip in behind the blade's reach and take the hit from the pole instead, only for the wielder to press a button on the grip of the pole that makes it shorten into a hand axe - right into the back of the aggressor's skull or spine! >:]

There should also be taken some consideration into hidden weapons as well, like my favourite, the cane sword. ^_^ I'm sure those would be somewhat popular with Negav's nobility - at least the ones able to defend themselves, or would rather do so instead of hiring bodyguards. I've also seen a transforming umbrella in my mind, which hides blades not only in the outer tip on top of the umbrella, but also around the branches on the inside, for spinning slicing-and-dicing action. Not sure that one would work particularly well, but you get the idea. :3 Use your imaginations, people! ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:49 am

talking of hidden weapons, here's something to add an extra sharpness when you kick someone's balls

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__DATQSa1Sxw/TS-w4tjoRBI/AAAAAAAAABM/79kZ4rqZNqc/s1600/howdoesitwork.jpg
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:58 pm

DarkOne wrote:
Oooohhh this sounds fun!

Well let's see, Maces are pretty tasty. And by that I mean the real small one handed maces, not the impossibly large ones that you see in fantasy films and video games. Maces are surposed to things you can quickly bludgeon over the head with ease.
It's true people do tend make maces over sized and make them way too hard to sheathe...Though I'm still confused as to how one sheathes a mace properly.

Also while we on the subject of melee weapons in Felarya you have to also take in to cosideration that weapons aren't always made to be effective so much as just what's easy to mass produce. Swords, axes and knives are your default fantasy weapons cause they are pretty simple to temper and mas produce in those conditions. Though Felarya isn't all medieval. There are some who are advanced I imagine who produce primitive things like swords, maces and other things. Why? To preserve the way of the smith in their culture or because it's more honorable to fight with steel in one's hand. Take the Kligons. How many times do you seem them draw phasers in TNG? Mabye a handful of times, mostly during the later seasons, but allot more of the time they'll draw some bladed weapon of some kind, even a combat knife.

I personally think all weapons should have some built in extra feature liek the Tree Runner Axes from the Wiki. They are brilliant in the fact they are nice sharp blades, not too difficult to use and, sicne they are of elvish make, those lovely thin blades are likely enchanted and even if they aren't they sting like heck I'm sure, but the main thing I like about them? You can turn them over and use them as a climbing brace. If you don't have elven agility, aren't a neko, or don't have great upper body strength they likely won't do you heck of alot of good for actually climbing when up again tree dwelling preds or when climbing one that's too small or slick, but you have to love the idea they are both weapon and tool all in one. Something about that bespeaks Felaryan practicalness.

Now as a RPer I mostly favor weapons with magical enchantments and such, but I am of firm belief not everyone can have one. Due to the fact enchanted weapons aren't normaly super common, right? Ofcourse only one of mine ever bought his weapons in the first place I think..Hmm let me see:

Examples Using OCs:
 

And that's just my own OCs, I pretty sure we all have at least one who didn't buy their weapon from some store and it likley has at least a minor enchantment or is overly awesome and has seen them through many a fight. Really I think if you have to design new weapons for Felarya malee combat magical perks and extra features that make them useful outside of combat are win win for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Melee combat in Felarya   Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:32 am

I would take the monk approach to melee combat, and just use weps that improve your fists, like bronze knuckles and whatnot. If you really need a melee weapon that isn't your bare hands, then my best suggestion would be something that can be used outside of combat. A kukri to chop down tree, or a shovel to dig a trench, or a knife to skin the bark off of a tree and use it as a makeshift raft.

In my honest opinion, anything else would just be a burden. I'm a man who believes in the "Jack of All Trades" philosophy.
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