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 Keeping Time in Felarya

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Nyaha
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PostSubject: Keeping Time in Felarya   Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:54 am

Okay, so I think most of us knows what the problem is facing this subject. We've already attempted a number of times to create a calendar for the place but nothing seems to have panned out. The main issue is the way time passes in Felarya, with the sky being one of the truly few ways to tell time is passing (since, as far as anyone's seen, most places in Felarya only have one season). And that's not even reliable because the sky changes from time to time (how often is not even specifically defined). Therefore, I've come up with a couple of theories with which we can explain how Felaryans, or at the very least Negavians (and maybe Chioites) might keep and tell time.

The first, and probably harder to grasp theory, is that of the thirty-day, which could also be called a month in Felarya. The idea is that, someone from another world brought a clock to Felarya, and upon studying the lengths of days with it, he discovered that, even though each day's length varies from the last, when the lengths of thirty days (including nighttimes) are added together, it always equals the same length of time, no matter which day you start from, as long as it's thirty of them, from sunrise to sunset. After discovering this strange natural phenomenon, he began to plot on paper every thirtieth day from when he started recording time in Felarya, then divided those times into five equal lengths of time he called six-days (under the premise that 30 / 5 = 6, though for simplicity we might just call them weeks), then divided each of those six-days (or weeks) into six shorter but still equal lengths of time, which he called n-days (or neutral-days) because the lengths of these days were independent from the physical lengths of each individual day and night. Taken further, n-days could be divided into hours, minutes, and even seconds, finally giving Felaryans a way to keep time that is based on a physical property of their own world! ^_^

Using the Thirty-Day (or Felaryan Month) Theory to explain time-keeping, we now have a way for people to describe how long it's been since something happened (like a birth or some other event), and how long it will be until something planned happens (like a concert or a festival), which would be a huge boon even just to Felaryan writers who struggle with things like those because of the lack of a canon time-keeping measure! Depending on other ideas, we could eventually expand the Thirty-Day Theory into a full-fledged Felaryan (or Negavian/Chioitian) Calendar! ^_^


The second theory I have is that of the sky-cycle. It's a little more basic. The idea is that Felaryan astronomers studying the changes in Felaryan skies eventually noticed a pattern, wherein Felarya naturally changes skies in a cycle, which repeats itself every so often. Now, this could mean that Felarya borrows skies from subsequent worlds in a 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and so on pattern, or changes out worlds for other worlds in a recurring pattern, in a 1-2-3, 2-3-4, 3-4-5, 4-5-6, 5-6-7 sort of pattern, if that makes sense to anyone. Really, there's all kinds of different patterns that Felarya's sky-borrowing property could follow, possibly an infinite amount, so I don't know which one we'll want to go with, but I will say the more complicated the pattern, the harder the idea will be to implement for writers and RPers. In the end, that aspect is probably going to be up to Karbo, but that doesn't mean he couldn't use some suggestions. Anyway, the Felaryan 'year' would then be based on the repetition of this sky cycle, where each new cycle (based arbitrarily on which sky the astronomers decide to be the 'first' one) marks the beginning of a new year. From there, the years could be broken down into however many months (or thirty-days ;3) we decide we want to have in Felarya, which can then be broken down into however many weeks and days we want to have, and so on, until we have a full calendar and time-keeping system to implement in canon! ^_^

So, thoughts, everyone? :3 Anything to criticize? Anything to add?
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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:07 pm

Personally, the keeping of time as we view, doesn't make sense on other planets other then earth, since our year months weeks and days are all based apon the earth, and religion, the sun and the moon.

So in fact, each universe connecting to Felarya, should have a different system of time, let alone have the names "Day, Week, Month, Year"

In Felarya, as my understanding is that with the random selection of sky.

I am actually working on a character that was going to relate his age by Cycles of the Silvery Night, which in return is a random event as well, but a constantly less random event.

Since Felarya selects "life supporting planets" (aka ones that match the requirements, not necessarily a planet even just a bit of space) from an infinite amount of possible matches, the silvery night still shows up consistently.

The inhabitants from other worlds most likely would have brought their own version of time with them, thus you could create an infinite amount of different times, where you could be 'ageing' (becoming as year older) at four times the rate as the person you live with, because your view of the passage of time is different.

Where technically should be no time on how long a day or night lasts BUT!! Theoritcly it could be monitored by a tempiture system. Yes, I am saying your clock is now a thermonitor.

THe Rate of which the universe would need to select a new sky would be based on keeping the planet the same temputure, since it always picks X distance from sun to provide Y lifesupport you could say that like earth, the direct sunlight heats air and surface of the planet. and since the system is regulating (Apparently) that once the plane of felarya gets to Z degree it would need to switch to a night cycle to cool off for Y lifesupport.

Thus creating a day night cycle you could monitor very closely with simple devices, and would maintain a constant effect.

Now that you have a Clock that can tell you how close night, or day is, or how far into the day it is, you could base a time system off it, that acutally has nothing to do with our terminology for time.

So morning(day cycle start) Could be called 0 degrees (lets say 10 C for time based exmaple) By noon it would be roomtemp (22 C) and called 12 degrees then night cycle kicks in at 12 over thus 24 degrees, thus creating a theological 24 possible hours in a day

Though it would probably be more of a jungle temp seeing how most of it seems to be more of a rainforest/jungle setting


Based upon the new day night cycle you can start to measure the time between silvery nights and use that night as the night of celebration of a new year, Now considering it is suppose to be a random event, it is acutally the least random event of sky you cant have, so you can start to predict due dates like it has been X day night cycles so it should happen, thus creating your "Cycle" or "Year"

Then for example say that it takes 365 "Short cycles" (day and night) to make a Long Cycle (A year)


Or you could say the silvery night happens as often as a blue moon even... thus complecationg the system more so that you measurements mean that the silvery night would fall on the new year once every 19 years.....
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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:54 pm

Well the problem is it still feels too much like its earth-related. Think how would we be able to, or how would we have to tell time when it comes to months? Or season for example? What would constitute a month or a Season in Felarya anyway? Nobody knows. Its always random. Always. That's why its basically impossible to come up with a system of time keeping for Felarya is because its apparently canonized in such a fashion so that nobody knows the hour, or the cycle of the moon/sun because it changes in random times throughout...well, time. Thus the world descends into chaos and darkness. Stabs would be proud.

Anyway.

Remember that seasons only occur on Earth because our Axis is tilted, so particular parts of the planet are facing the sun from various angles throughout the year and that changes slowly. This is important because most planets in existence dont have tilted axis, and therefore, the "seasons" are generally the same all year round. Baring of course any weather patterns, which also vary depending on various geological patterns that involve the earth. I'm not a meteorologist, but I know that basic idea involving the Earth and Sun, and its one we're forgetting. The stars Felarya borrows light from wouldn't innately influence the particular season that cycles through felarya anyway. The star isn't what dictates the season, its the planet itself, and since there IS NO planet, there wouldn't be any season, which actually begs the question why The Tundra is right next to a forest that likely has a much different weather pattern.

Sorry (this statement to Karbo), but unfortunately, in order to make a calendar in the world of Felarya we'd have to change the way it operates fundamentally. I'm sorry to say. Let me try to see if I can help make it work though before I give up on it.

Here's another issue:

Because there's no planet, it doesn't rotate, so how would you tell when it's day/night. It's like Northern Siberia probably, where the sun is out at like 2AM or 3AM. Likely scenario is that night in Felarya isn't dark, unless the way the "borrowing" works is that it mimicks the planet that is using the light from the star it's borrowing, so when one particular part of the planet is dark, so would the part in relation in Felarya. (but how do we determine which part of the felarya is borrowing from which part of the planet's area? maybe the tundra just borrows from the polar caps, which would make walking from the forest into the Tundra go suddenly from evening sun to bright daylight)

What if:

We take out the concept of the "month" altogether?

What does a month represent in Felarya anyway, we need to divide the blocks of time so that it makes sense to the world. If there is a pattern to the hours, which I like about your idea Nyaha, maybe we could make it something simple, like 5 days always average out a certain amount of hours no matter what, or 6 days, if we feel like this is nature, and nature is randomized.

So we have a number of these blocks of days all together which take up a particular "season", and each "season" is judged by how many of these "weeks" are in it until it changes. Of course what dictates a year?

How do we figure out when a year passes, and how did the people hundreds of years ago figure out when a year passed without knowing that the earth really revolved around the sun? The most basic way I'd imagine would be because the start of the harvest in spring, then the cycle goes around to the harvest, then the time when all plants are dead, and finally when the plants start growing again, would consider a full cycle.

This process in felarya is dead in the water, because you could (as we all know) have summer, spring, summer, spring, winter, fall, spring, and how would that all work out? This is a process that should probably be changed due to simplicity, and I don't think the plants would be able to take that sort of stress anyway. How would they relate to suddenly growing their leaves back after they lost it, then right after summer, instead of a harvest like fall, going back to the spring? I don't think plants can work that way.

So probably whatever happens, is that the plants always go through a full harvest, maybe two full harvests per year, and that's how its determined, regardless of seasons passing (if they should pass at all), its related to the production cycle of plants.

>I still would like to know how the plants would deal with winter coming right after spring in one year. maybe that year lasts longer? or maybe the plants have a surefire way of the harvest maturing instead of straight up dying right after.

>Maybe the types of seasons available are relative to each area? Like a forest cant go through a winter season because felarya doesn't want to kill the fruit production cycle of plants?

There are so many questions here that need answering, and clarification it just goes on. Until these issues are resolved though, we cannot make a calendar for Felarya.

So far the only thing I can see is a week>season>year (judged by the harvests from treess). Actually, the years could average out too, like the days. One year could be short, but the following year could be long to make up for it? Anyway this is getting a little bit long, so I'll save my next batch of questions and thoughts until someone else pitches and follows these up.

edit: I wrote this based on the idea that has been or is widely acknowledged...each area in Felarya has its own sky portal. which makes me want to bang my head against a wall because of how bad that complicates our problem for Felarya time keeping.
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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:27 am

You need to tweek the system or justify how the system works, but finding something that you can base it off.

Life support. If not for it, there would not be a vore plane that works "flat disk" style. So that needs to be constant enough to keep life on felyara working how it does.

Like i said have time relations to how the day night cycle would be randomly selected but based upon the temperature need of area to regulate itself,with how it chooses a sky, it does not rotate on an axis, so it would have to somehow go "HEY!, its getting alittle on hot now, NIGHT CYCLE!" or vise versa, then you can map out the pattern of a event that happens and repeat, like once in a blue moon, we can figure out what time it takes for a blue moon pattern to restart and follow the same pattern, then break it up where you have 6,935 Cylces in a Sliver Night Cycle lets break that up 19 pairs of 365 leave no decimal place, lets call that our long cycle, the the bright sky and dark sky, as a short Cycle.


Since the planet well keep having a wandering temp. (hot cold areas dont matter, because they are isolated to be at that temp) Everywhere would get heated the same, everything would cool down the same, thus the whole of felarya would have zoning, like daylight savings...but a different average temp by location. so if its +50C in the desert and -50C in the arctic, if you have a cycle change every 10C difference, your night would start at +60 and -40.

And I can say this change IS NOT A RANDOM FACTOR cause the wiki says that it picks stars for "suns" all at the same distance, so the heat from the lightsouce would always be the same, otherwise it would not be able to provide the right conditions for the plan of existence, furthermore, since Felarya is a flat plane(it has a hieght and depth limit) there would be no variation on temp since it all is X space away form the sky all at once, there is no planet tilt or rotation.

Even with multiple skies this still works, each zone would need its own sky, and once again be switched around to stay the same type of day, and same type of night, to keep the area the same as it should be.

Once again, it as an infinte amount of universes to choose from, being X away from Y Star = Z Acceptable Felyara sky.

The consistence of day(X+Y=Z) and night(X+Y=Z) means that the atmospheric 'heat based' life support well always be the same, considering the days and nights cycle. Life support Z has to be the cause of the switch otherwise there would be no point in finding a night sky or a sunny sky at day/nightX+Y for Z, it would just go Daylight= X for star= Z and still Daylight but now =Y for temp control


Now the silvery night happens once in a while. IT is not random on that purpose, your not going to get one three days apart suddenly, felerya pick this sky for a special reason, and not out of random, cause it is the same system that is picked for THAT night, so the plane has something that it needs for its X+Y=Z system that requires it to hit that exact spot in these conditions so based off that you can now use the temperature changes too measure the lightCycle and DarkCycle in a Short Cycle, you can now make a longCycle out of this eventby measuring the shortCycles til it happens, then measure til it happens again, if A cycles happen between every Silvery Moon, your set, if it doesn't it's X+Y=Z means that it can't always be not the same, cause it needs that set event

So leading off that you can learn it patterns A to B to C to D to A to B.... and so on, thus making A to D a long cycle.

Not that you have your long cycle, you can start to break it into Silver Phases of A,B,C,D, you now have four 'months'

So now we have a time system that goes
Degrees into a LightCycle and a NightCycle that make a ShortCycle and so many of those are in a Silver Phase and 4 make a LongCycle


Now we can go in father saying that the system allows for X+4, this drift would have to fall in a pattern (like how our seasons work to maintain temp differances) on felarya, your alway at the equatior, this is no north and south or tilt and wobble, so to keep life (our sexy X+Y=Z) working the same the It would need to pull back into X-4 at some point to stop its Z from losing what it needs to stay Z.

Now why am i bringing this up? Seasons at X+4 the plane would be getting colder in the nights, and not gaining heat fast enough in the day, this might happen for T Short cycles, making your cold season, well now it needs to have some form of Warm season to balance that and keep life support system the same so you now have X-4 for T shortcycles.

SO now we have a full set of Time based things off what is canon right now, without having it change the world's core to make up for it.


Time is an abstract concept, that well...is based on time. Cause really, when it comes down to it, Time = A lenght of time. You cannot Explain time wit out some form of lenght of time itself, so really you can just have people who have no idea what time is cause really, without time, there isnt time. :3

Think for a second, and try to explain time without needing to use something that needs time to explain what it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:11 am

Okay, what I'm seeing here is a bunch of people coming up with their own ideas instead of trying to build off each other's concepts. Now, that's not to say any of the ideas are bad, per se - I myself am pretty interested in Thy's idea of basing the time-keeping system on Felarya's regulation of it's own temperature. There could be a lot to do with that, and it's clear that he's thought it through quite a bit (even if I don't completely understand it all <.<; ).

Bael, there's an inherent problem with your idea - I don't think any of us are sure how exactly seasons work in Felarya. I, for one, thought that Felarya only had one season, like, summer all the time everywhere, whereas you think they change in a random pattern (which, if we take into account what Thy pointed out, wouldn't make sense with Felarya actively supporting life on itself, at least, in my mind). We'd need canon confirmation on how seasons work, which can only come from Karbo, in order to know if we can base a time-keeping system on it.

I'd also like you guys to keep in mind that we're just trying to work out short-term time keeping in this thread - like planning how long it will take to set up for a festival from any given day. I feel like you guys are going a little beyond that, with seasons and cycles and harvesting and the Silvery Moon. ^^; Of course, if I'm wrong and that's what we need to figure out before we can look at short-term, you'll need to point it out to me. That being said, I'd really like it if we could work on maybe one or two ideas at a time (ideally mine because I like them best XD hehe).
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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:46 am

Nyaha wrote:
Bael, there's an inherent problem with your idea - I don't think any of us are sure how exactly seasons work in Felarya.
That's actually part of my point. Because nobody is sure how seasons really work, we cant really figure out how to make the calendar/timekeeping work. (Nyaha sometimes I feel you miss my point...)

The reason? Well how else would you come up with a calendar? The stars and the crops, and the seasons were all how people kept time back in ancient times, and so we cant just say "a week in felarya is 6 days because I feel like it" there has to be a reason for it that makes sense with the world, otherwise we'll come to contradictions (eventually).

This is also why I suggested years be based off a harvest cycle, and like your idea - where all the days in a week average out at the end of 6 days (which is where that week comes from, so its not a half bad reason), the years can also average out. If we want to related it to earth, it can be every four years, like how we have leap years here in real life which account for the lost time in the calendar. (I believe its because a day is actually shorter than 24 hours, and all that adds up when accounted for in the leap year)

Nyaha wrote:
I'd also like you guys to keep in mind that we're just trying to work out short-term time keeping in this thread - like planning how long it will take to set up for a festival from any given day.

Wait what? I thought this was just about setting up a calendar. Or at least day/week/whatever. (I still like the idea of removing the "month" concept to account for just measuring the seasons.)
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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:02 pm

Okay, Thy, let me break up your points so I can answer to each one and not have the risk of skipping any.
1- Felarya's sky plane(s) are worked so the temperature is roughly stable in a given area.
2- Felarya's day cycle finishes when it 'senses' there's too much temperature and would then change to night cycle immediately.
3- Likewise, night cycle would immediately end when there's too little temperature and switch to day cycle.
4- You whip up some calculations I don't really get (can't find a non-decimal) with the Silvery night being mentioned, and say that a day-night cycle is a 'short cycle' and 365 'short cycles' make a 'long cycle'.
5- You base off a single sky-portal, the planar shape of Felarya and the no tilting to say that every place would be heated and cooled the same and therefore every area would have night and day at roughly the same time.
6- You state that the above would work with multiple skies as well because it would still follow temperature requirements of the area and therefore switch to similar skies that keep such temperature.
7- Further reasoning (now with letter math) to support point 1.
8- You justify the appearance of the Silvery Night is not random, but it does with a certain cycle because there's something that Felarya needs from that Night to keep itself stable.
9- Basing off the previous statement, you state that, in case the days ['short cycle'] that have passed between Silvery Nights are not the same, there must be a number of Silvery Nights that make up a Silvery Night cycle where the number of days between Silvery Nights are the same as those of the same Silvery Nights of the previous cycle. therefore, you make a 'long cycle' that's made of a set number of 'Silver Phases' (or 'months) that are different in day count, but consistent with following 'long cycles'.
10- Lastly, you state that there could be seasons if Felarya randomly chose to have the sky-portal further away than normal from the star, and that it would necessarily have to compensate that time with an equally long time with a sky-portal closer to that same sun, creating the opposite season.


Now for the answers:
Point 1 is correct. But keep in mind it's not a certain temperature, it's a range. And a life-supporting range can be very, very wide.

Point 2 and point 3 can be discussed at the same time. What you are suggesting is a system that monitors temperature similar to the heater in my room; you set it to 'heat to 24 C' and it starts pumping air until it reaches that mark and then it shuts off. A day doesn't work that way. You can't have the sun bright up in the sky like it was midday and it suddenly goes 'pop!' and disappears, turning into night, just because the max temperature had been reached. Well, it actually could happen, it's a strange dimension, but I don't think it's supposed to happen. Point 2 and 3 should have been proven false.

Point 4 is strange as it is, but seems more like an attempt to equal a Felaryan year to an Earth year so... yeah. As this point by itself doesn't give much information, I'll skip it.

Point 5 is false because of fundamentals. Not all surfaces heat up equally fast. Rock and ground heat up fast, trees make a layer that both repels and keeps heat, the ocean takes a really long time to gain temperature, and all these heat variations make the air move around and cool/heat what was already hot/cold. As such, you can't have a constant temperature variation during the day at all places with a single sky-portal. Not that's necessary either. As I stated in my counter-point 1, life support temperature can have a wide range, and a single sky-portal could still be valid given some restrictions.

Point 6 is false for the same reason as point 5, but here we have different sky-portals, which could make the possibility of a constant temperature range plausible. However, it would most probably result in neighbouring areas that are at opposite times of the day.

Point 7 (and 10) is based almost entirely on the theory that answers to each letter are a single number (for each star [Y], the distance [X] is set so that the acceptable temperature [Z] stays the same. Any variation in distance [X] for a certain star [Y] would result in an 'irregular' temperature [Z], which is used as a fact for seasons in point 10). Therefore, when argued that acceptable temperature is a range instead of a fixed number, the math would crumble. Besides, if we take a distance and a star (expressed in luminosity, which is what we need to calculate temperature), the resulting calculation wouldn't give an acceptable temperature, but the... No, it doesn't fit. Thinking about it, light doesn't dissipate in the void, its energy amount stays the same throughout the travel distance until it hits the atmosphere. Distance from the star is a measure we don't need... or do we? Yes, we do indeed. The surface of the sun is curved, that is why we need both distance from the sun and sun size.
Sun size - distance + sun luminosity = amount of energy received from light. And from that, you'd have to take out the energy reflected, refracted and dispersed by the atmosphere, etc. The operators are possibly off, but it's not like I studied astrophysics. The point is, the math is not simple, so it's not likely to work like you thought.

Points 8 and 9 are theories, and they have no evidence in favour or against them. Still, though, Silverly Night is supposed to be a rare event, so I don't think anyone would set up a calendar based on its appearances. Ah, also, I don't agree with the point which suggests that Felarya needs the Silvery Night. It just doesn't seem logical. They are two moons, which would have a lot of influence over the tides, but nothing a single bigger or nearer moon can't do.

Point's 10 math, as discussed at counter-point 7, wouldn't quite work that way. But leaving that aside, seasons would throw into disarray your carefully planned day-to-night system, where temperatures are the absolute marker of when should be day and when should be night. If it somehow chose a colder sun than normal, or a greater distance than normal, according to your system, the day would simply last longer and the night would be shorter to compensate for the lack of heat.




Now for Bael. I don't know how best to address his post since it's mostly to answer Nyaha, and doesn't have much that's fundamentally wrong. Well, first things first. Bael, I don't know where have you heard that most planets have no tilted axis. I know for a fact that only two planets in the Solar System have negligible axis tilting (Mercury and Jupiter), but the rest have varying tilts ranging from over 20 to almost upside down (Venus has a tilting angle of 177). I'm not too well informed about Extrasolar Systems, though, I admit. Your point about seasons is also itti-bitti wrong, distance from a star also plays a role in temperature since stars have a circular surface, they are not screens. But I'm also unsure if that can be used as means to emulate seasons. This kinda reminds me of my all-sky-portal, but I'll save that for the next thing.

As for the day, I remember the commonly accepted answer from a while ago (maybe years, even, I don't remember) was that the sky-portal(s) actually orbited the sun it chose and rotated on itself. I remember because my sky-portal suggestion was to change the orbiting portal with a still one. My portal kept the rotation upon itself and added tilting to substitute the orbit around the sun. Those two ways still have a problem, though: they have no moon. At night, a secondary portal would have to switch in and open to a moon. Hell, it's even less complicated to have the portal stuck to a certain distance of a human-inhabited planet. That way you'll have the rotation, the translation and the moon, no work figuring out a distance, an orbit and a secondary portal to get the moon at night. If you want to change the portal, no prob, you just find another suitable planet and stick the portal there.

Anyway, moving on. I also like Nyaha's idea of the averaged time a lot, though I wouldn't go for a whole month as he did, nor for a week as you did, Bael. I find those to concepts to be too earth-like. A week. What is a week? No logical reason besides being an arbitrary division of time. Same goes for months. There was even a time when the Roman emperors changed some of the names of the months to theirs, and took out or put in days as they pleased. The year, at least, has its meaning. But you're right. What should we take as reference for a year? The length of days, the cycle of harvests, the appearance of a Silvery Night, the length of Negav's first civil war (the one before the Great Destruction of Negav)? There must be something.

Also, about seasons and harvests, Bael, there are certain types of plants that could work even in a strange place like Felarya. Going with the idea Felarya has different seasons, all random without hint of order, and not necessarily equal to the season of the neighbouring area, evergreen plants seem to be the most obvious answer. To go with an example, a pine tree would never lose its leaves, would always continue growing and would sprout reproductive cones whenever the season is most appropriate for such. Even if just after spring comes winter, no matter, the new trees will grow. Another type of plants likely to adapt well is one that has an aggressive type of semelparity. Or at least I think it has chances. Semelparity is a type of reproduction strategy where the parent(s) die after conceiving offspring, normally a whole lot of them. To give an example, crops and most vegetables are semelparus. The thing is, here at Earth, most of the semelparus plants take a lot to grow, two seasons most of them. I added the term "aggressive" to "semelparity" to mean a new type of plant that could grow and bear fruit in less than a season, therefore maximizing the chance of survival where the seeds have yet to take root when winter of fall kicks in. They would remain latent during those seasons and grow when the season is right once again. If I'm not explaining myself back there, tell me where I'm too confusing and I'll try to develop the point a bit more.

In case there is only one season (in each area) in Felarya, then there's no problem. Plants can easily be adapted to the conditions, or humans would build something to help their cultivation.



I've been thinking about it and browsing the wiki deeply until I remembered there was a single event that could be used to mark a year. It may not be completely trustworthy, but I think it's something solid. Since answers seem to keep popping up all the time in this thread while I'm writing, I'll post this and develop the idea in a later post.


Old thread, but could be useful. The portal theories I mentioned before are here (mine's in the last page): http://felarya.forumotion.com/t2161-felarya-seasons

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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:11 pm

Thanks. I'm a bit pressed for time so I dont know how long this'll be.

I cant remember where I heard that either. I think it was some documentary video or article I read. I just remember some place saying that the galaxy's planets are generally straight axis, and therefore seasons are constant. I don't know why a portal would rotate though, would it absorb light and what-not from either side? I thought it'd be constant. Also a rotating portal doesn't mean that there will be seasons either.

As for the number of days it takes to balance out it doesn't really matter. We could just use whatever number we like best I suppose (nine?). A pine tree could work fine for the years though, I believe there's a type of pine tree that's canonized? I used a fir tree as a base for my fur tree which was renamed to something else though on the wiki...can't remember what though.

I'm much more inclined to do harvests as that's my personal preference and makes a lot of sense anyhow, but if there's another part of Felarya canon that could be used instead, by all means :B

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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:02 pm

I grasp your first theory just fine, Nyaha. A specific amount of time between a set number o' days, say, 30, as measured by something with its own cycles, be it an offworld clock, for instance. But why stop there?

I was thinking, maybe elves back in Ye Olde Elvene Empire had clocks... or special music boxes capable of altering their tune with mathematical precision depending on the amount of time that passed. The idea of measuring time with different things seems worth a shot to me. Maybe the Sagolians used magic to keep track of the time, the Vishmitali use isotope decay, and the Dridder Empire used... I don't know, copper reduction in spinning electrodes?

That said, Nyaha, if the time doesn't actually measure anything in Felarya, you have to be ready to adapt to the fact that one of your n-days might start as the sun's coming down, and end when it's coming back up. That would make such timekeeping of little use. I'd recommend you to have time being counted every day starting at dusk, when the sun comes up, using whatever arbitrary time units we decide on. If timekeeping cannot predict when a day will start, it needs to lock on to the start of the day somehow in order to be of any use.


As for the sky cycle, I suppose it could be done, though I don't like it that much. If you have a cycle that goes 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-from the top, then you have seven skies and that puts those seven skies as the seven official skies of Felarya. Which brings up why those skies and not others, and makes me curious as to what makes those worlds special.

I'd suggest instead that we had infinite random skies, and it was the reruns of old skies that came on a regular basis. For instance, for every seven nights, six skies, one repeats. 1.2.3.4.5.6.5, and the next week Felarya gets a new cast of handsome new skies, going back upon 1.2.3.4.5.6.5 lol.

If this step changed over time, that'd be great, too. Imagine that by recording the sky every night, and assigning one note to every sky, you'd get over 100 years a melody that might as well be handed down by the Guardians. Music of the Spheres and all that.

======

As for Thywolf's idea, thermal regulation, life doesn't work that way. Besides heat, there's sunlight to consider, and plants are gonna need a lot of it if they're going to metabolize enough food for everything out there. Besides, it'd be a lot of coincidence if Felarya was all about constant temperature ranges.

There's something we ought to rescue from what Thy said, though- the moons are always the same. The sky changes, but it does so from BEYOND the moons, because one can actually go up in Felarya far enough to be gone, and that happens long before you reach the moon.

So despite the fact that Felarya's sky ends at the Von Karman line, the moons themselves are still visible at a distance that takes even light a perceptible amount of time to cross. Unless we're talking really tiny moons that are actually close enough to zoom through the sky. That'd be cool!

======

That'll be it for now.

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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:35 pm

it pretty much is trying to be based off two things related to the random system that it constantly does, its just randomly picking a place that has certain settings

then you take the reasoning that the sun as a source of light and heat would increase a temp, and then night would decrease the temp, then the wiki says that it always picks the same distance from the star it chooses so it would be the same, then your seasons would come from it floating back and forth few time but it would have to remain roughly the same to keep its constant life support.

Stabs, I am talking about sunlight, and ita not a coincidence that the change would happen everywhere, because the plane always picks the same distance for a star, as stated by the wiki, so he sunlight (which includes the thermals from the sun) heats up the planet

Now that I'm not on a phone.

back to the letters :v

X+Y=Z

Z is the zone of life support, the right amount of light, as well the right conditions for heat radiation from the sun

So Y is the sun type

and X is the distance from that sun type.

So X+Y=Z can have unlimited possible combinations as long as Z stays the same (within acceptable range).
but one thing remains the same Z!!! Z is the acceptable conditions that the random selection of Felarya picks, so EVERYTHING THAT MATTERS is Z

But, Since Felarya is 'stealing' a sky it is also taking the same heat.

LEts put it this way. The sun gives off heat what is something you can do to stay cool on a hot day? go in the shade

What happens to a hot summer day at night? it cools down


Now, based on this fact of Facing a sun = heat and Not Facing sun = heat loss


Now lets go back to what you said about areas not heating up the same. Welp, sorry your atmosphere seems to be Nitrogen/Oxygen based, and well, that well heat up and cool the same pretty much everywhere, now you just have zones of rock and snow that change how it is effected, thus you now have a zone.

My basis on the odd math, is actually based on the rotation of a "Blue Moon" since the saying "Once in a blue moon" refers to a rare event, I randomly picked it to say the silvery moons happens as much as a blue moon, which has a 19 year cycle :3

Now yes I took something from earth to make it logical, which I hate doing but you need to realize something

FELARYA IS NOT A PLANET. IT should not have a horizon. IF anything once up above the tree line you would see forever (until the light refraction off the air stopped you from seeing father, like our sky does in the day)

This means that the sections of sky over the area, or even in a one sky theory, which there can't be due to the nature of some zones

Exposure to sunlight does = a change in temperature. You could go wear a teeshirt on mars, or even swimming trunks on pluto if the distance to the sun didnt change the amount of heat energy it gave off. Even if they have an atmosphere the same as earth, they are just not in the same zone (aka Z) range.



Once more Felarya is an unstable place, a new zone would be require for every part of a world it steals and then keeps unless it is within acceptable range for the area it s in.



So don't say your disproving what i am saying. Or I'll point out once fact, just one fact that well kick the shit out of everything you say. This is not earth. Meaning There is no time, no seasons, no hours, minutes days or weeks.

All this trying to make a time system for something that cannot have one, is now pointless.

Now if your done trying to shoot holes into something I am piecing together out of what we can from the wiki, that would put a constant basics of having something to measure and make time. But sadly, like us, the creator of the wiki IS ON EARTH.

So yes there are some logical fallacies in what i am making, but due to it being FELARYA a made up dimensionally unstable sky shifting, landmass stealing, switching, considered to be flat, or too large for anything to be living beyond the horizon to survive/travel a notable horizon(which would instantly break my theory, and throw the flat world out of possiblity..wait...if the world is flat to the rivers have currents....)

IT does not spin, It does not tilt, it just does the hoky poky and spins itself about. Meaning that THERE IS NO SUNRISE, OR THERE IS NO NIGHTFALL The sun should be set constantly at a midday point always, so it peeking out of the horizon, like it does on earth.

SO yes It should go "oh by the way, its night now"

Going off the fact that Karbo seems to make to make creature have a sleep cycle that matches up with night, means that Day and Night have to have a reason for changing when they do, I simplely put a reason there, and now you can measure that reason and make time.


If you feel like saying my points are invald cause they don't make sense on Earth, do me a favor

EXPLAIN TIME. Liek TIME What does time mean.

I'll save you the time : D

Time is a measurement of Time.


IF the world is going to have something measurable to make into time, then we need something that is measure able, within the constant RANDOM switches, I found a constant, if it ended up at pluto for a day cycle with a sun like ours, it wouldn't be effective for maintaining the life on felarya.

Maintaining life is now our variable that is constant in a random cycle. A little hook for infinite possibility.

Then I decided that might as well use a event that happens Felarya wide pretty much when it happens as far as i can tell from the wiki, so now we have an other constant in a random

you have infinite possibility, on a scale that goes both ways forever

<---....-5, -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5....---->

why does 0 keep showing up constantly?




Or, I can make this even more simple and through everything out the window everythere.

The founders of Negav had a pocket watch from their exact copy of earth matching planet. THE WORLDS NOW MOST PROMINENT TIME SYSTEM IS NOW EARTHS!

You now can sit back and relax happily knowing that while the day only lasted 3 hours today, and 72 hours the yesterday, you can still puff on your pipe every second.


Further more the silvery night HAS A EFFECT ON THE CREATURES OF THE PLANE!!!!!!! AAARRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!! WHO GIVES A F( :3 )CK ABOUT THE TIDES IT CAUSES!!!!!

It is obviously more complex then you even imagined *flails about*

And the world is mixxed of vairous regions that donet even make sense why they are ther or how they are there, these Zones regulate themselfs seperatly from the rest of the worlds zones, so a desert suddenly being in the middle of the tundra does not have an effect on the tundra or the desert itself because the two are now together -noms on- grrrrr!!!


I am going to put this on this side cause its now a new idea

Magic. You measure the regulation of magic.
Felarya is a magical world, where instabilities are its man feature. And within that feature could be very well something you can measure magically to make time, Predict day night changes, and so forth :v
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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:18 pm

Alright, Thywolf, let's see what I can follow...

Okay, I guess there's no real reason why Felarya couldn't decide on when to turn day to night simply by temperature changes. Yeah, there's ice and snow and rocks and tree cover that can alter how it heats up, but if we're not picky about the temperature ranges that result, we'll be ok. No reason why it couldn't be that way.

That said, I'm still a big fan of the one-sky theory. If the wiki mentions some zones as having their own sky, I figure it's because all the others have a common sky. Besides, there's a million ways to alter the heat effects of sunlight, y'now. Particulates in the air, air composition, ozone layers, surface albedo, evaporation...

And it may not be Earth, Thywolf, but we're assuming that you can still count to one in Felarya. Which should take one second. You can still starve to death, which should... not take one second. And trees can still grow: that also takes more than one second. We have the same problem in Earth regarding what time is.

Also, there is time. There's years. There's years all over the wiki, Thy, Crisis has 60 of 'em. No one said they were all the same length, but there's plenty of them.

======

And if the founders of Negav had a clock with seconds on it, what about the elven empire? Or the Dridder empire? Or Ur-Sagol? Magic, maybe?

I actually like your idea of keeping the time with magic Razz.

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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:02 pm

Karbo said in the Tech Musing thread the general discussions that Negav would have clocks that operate using the same hour system as ours for the sake of simplicity. I think chances are good the day, week, month and year system is also going to be the same as ours just to keep things simple, though I'm fairly sure days of the week and months would go by different names.

That being said, I would be cool with the idea of how long daylight hours last vary from day to day. For example, one day, daylight hours lasts for quite a while like it's summer, then the following day it lasts much shorter like it's winter. I think it would help make the setting feel like it's dimensionally unstable.
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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:55 pm

Stabs wrote:
So despite the fact that Felarya's sky ends at the Von Karman line, the moons themselves are still visible at a distance that takes even light a perceptible amount of time to cross. Unless we're talking really tiny moons that are actually close enough to zoom through the sky. That'd be cool!

Only if you aren't flying an airship that's less dense than a tiny mini moon missile I think. ^^; Not to mention the velocity of what it'd be traveling at. O_o; Though it would be amusing if somebody tried to capture it! XD I can see all kinds of incompetent thieves and adventurers as well as a hopeless romantics trying to get it.

Stabs wrote:
I'd suggest instead that we had infinite random skies, and it was the reruns of old skies that came on a regular basis. For instance, for every seven nights, six skies, one repeats. 1.2.3.4.5.6.5, and the next week Felarya gets a new cast of handsome new skies, going back upon 1.2.3.4.5.6.5 lol.

I always thought that's the way it worked. Personally I think it works best. It also means if you're a star gazer you'd have a endless array of skies to observe! That'd be killer to me. X3 Though one would wonder what a Felarya Zodiac Sign list would look like. ^^;

Shady Knight wrote:
I think chances are good the day, week, month and year system is also going to be the same as ours just to keep things simple, though I'm fairly sure days of the week and months would go by different names.

I agree. Simple is good. Complex things tend to hand and hand with Felarya's weirdness, but honestly for writers and RPers simple works best. It's easy to remember, to plan out and to implement. As for a calendar well in Brave Fencer Musashi they had a pretty normal calendar till you got to an eight day. Sky Day. Granted that was so a certain dungeon could be accessed only on that day but I always found it amusing to think of a eight day calendar. It didn't seem to affect the 24 hour day though... In Olbivion they have their own made up day names, but honestly? I can't keep up with it! Weirdly named days. If we do try to make new sounding day names we must make sure they have simple shortened forms. Like Thursday is Thur and such...Hey he's a weird thought XD How about Alzcaloth's Day? For the day the Titan's were defeated? We could call it Alzcaday!...Nah just having fun there trying to draw parallels.
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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:02 pm

Okay, I'll take a stab at the matter. I'm assuming a lot of this, so yeah, I know we don't know how some of the things really work. They could be adapted later if needed.


The proto-calendar
Felarya's first method to measure time, as used by the guardians and then the titans. Little is known about it aside from the fact that it represents insanely long periods of time divided in smaller periods of variable length. The smallest unit seems to be tens of days, but it is not consistent throughout the fragments found in Jadong Temple. It is believed to be designed by Notys, since she would be the one most perceptive to Felarya's dimensional changes and rift logic, but it is pure speculation.


The thousand calendars
During the Recovery era, numerous humanoid races flooded into Felarya, establishing into a myriad of settlements, frequently isolated from each other, and eventually developing their own means of measuring time. The most proficient calendar came with the Elven Empire, and was adopted widely in many of its provinces after conquering. The Elven Calendar year spans for 218 days and is split into three periods. These periods represent the three steps in the annual cycle of the trees most used for making bows; seeding, growth and flourishing. The year starts with the seeding season, extending for 53 days, and ends with the flourishing season spanning for the same time. The growth period divides the two seasons with a 112 day period. The smaller measures of time vary from community to community.


The ancient calendar
(also called the calendar of fear nowadays)
The first calendar to be widely spread throughout Felarya. It appeared briefly after the construction of Milkadis temple, and although the Elven Empire shunned its use, it became more predominant as the Empire started its decline. The start of the calendar is marked in black, a day of anguish and fear, and what is known today as the Mirror Day. A poorly understood phenomenon in its age, this day allowed terrible creatures to appear from mirrors and other reflective surfaces such as metal armours or weapons and even buckets of water. It didn't take much for the people of Felarya to understand that it was a periodic occurrence and therefore this calendar came to be, born from the fear the event caused. Other means to measure time became secondary.

The ancient calendar consists of 296 days each year, the first of which is always a Mirror Day. The rest of the divisions vary locally, depending on how they adapted their own calendars into the new time frame. The most notable are the Elvish adaptation, where they divide the year equally in two and settle for a faster tree cycle of 148 days already contemplated in their previous calendar, and the Human adaptation, where they divided the year into five periods of 59 days that allow two full trulp harvests and a small fallow period each, leaving the Mirror Day as a spare outside of any of the seasons.


The Sagolian calendar
A calendar of which very little is known because of the sudden disappearance of its users. The year span is rather short compared to previous calendars, and seems to sport small changes every few years, but aside from that, it is very regular. It is divided in eleven seasons and each season in a varying number of weeks of eleven days. It is not known in which events the year is based, but it has been speculated that it measured cycles of Felaryan magic energy or ley lines, while others claim that it was based on numerology alone. Either way, it hasn't been used since the fall of Ur-Sagol.


The new calendar
(also called the Negavian or the mechanical calendar by some)
This calendar has been made widespread by the efforts of numerous adventurers and merchants based in the city of Negav, which carry them around for the benefits it has when planning trips or harvests. The calendar was created by the eccentric timelogist Tanto "Kronos" Iccaim who was the first person to bring a precise mechanical clock to Felarya in the year 1792. Upon ascertaining that the rumours he had heard about a world where time seemed to flow erratically were true, he was determined to find a constant he could use to measure time. After years of research and discoveries, he published his original calendar, where a year lasted 120 days. It was later modified to three times that amount due to the population's psychological need to have at least one Mirror Day a year clearly marked in their calendar.

Tanto's calendar, therefore, assigns a length of 360 days to a year. This year is divided in fifteen periods of 24 days which he called a "Solar cycle", although time wore out its use in favour of the shorter term "month". Tanto arbitrarily divided this period into four "weeks" of 6 days each, happy to find that the basic number in his home planet's mathematics had something to do with Felarya's periodic nature.

The specifics behind that division, besides the arbitrary 6-day week, weren't found out until after Tanto's death in the Great Destruction of Negav. From the notes that could be rescued, the 24-day month had the peculiarity of having a constant value if all the daylight lengths were added. Tanto hadn't stopped there, however, and found out that not only day length, but also night length was constant after five repetitions of said month. That was what he originally intended to mark as a year, a period of 120 days where the time measured from the first sunrise to a moment before the one hundred and twenty-first sunrise was constant, no matter the uneven day lengths contained within that period. Still Negavians preferred to maintain the 360-days-a-year format.

Not only did Tanto develop a calendar, but also a smaller time measuring system to use in everyday planning. Only a few years later were experts able to decipher the complex notes that remained, which covered the details of his tuning of his own mechanical clock. Apparently, the findings involving the month and "old" year were done early in his research, and he spent the remaining years looking for a time frame that resulted in round numbers for month and year length. He eventually rebuilt his clock using a 25% pure cubic actinite half of an inch of side, which powered an electric engine moving the internal gears. He also changed his original sphere divided into thirty-six segments for another one divided in sixty segments. Two hands would slowly move around the sphere, one of them completing the circle in the time the other advanced just two segments. The name of those segments was lost, so experts called them "minute" because they were small and calling them "tiny" wouldn't have felt right. The longer segments that the slower hand moved while the other completed a circle were noted as "hour" by Tanto, and such is the name they still have to this day. It wasn't until the arrival of the Vishmitals, with even more precise methods of measuring time, that a smaller unit was created under the name of "second", since it was the second unit to use the sixty-segment system, in recognition to Tanto.

Such is the time-measuring system used up to this day. There have been attempts to change this system to a more simple one a few times, but the confidence in its use that Negavians have developed, and the round numbers it generates when coupled with the calendar, make it difficult for the government to establish simpler systems that are used in other worlds.






That is my suggestion for both the calendar and the time frame. To sum it up, we have:
- 60 seconds make a minute.
- 60 minutes make an hour
- Tanto's original clock had 30 hours. We can leave it that way since there's not a stable time reference for the length of a whole day, sunrise to sunrise. But we can establish a limit as in "It has never been observed a day longer than X hours". I suggest 30 for that X, now that I'm at it.
- 6 days make a week.
- 4 weeks (24 days) make a month.
- 15 months (60 weeks or 360 days) make a year.
- 336 hours of daylight in the 24-day month. Averages to 14 hours of light a day.
- 8,640 hours make up a 360-day year. Averages to 24 hours a day.
- Tanto's original 120-day year would last 2,880 hours, but it would still average to 24 hours a day, of course.

A lot of credit to Nyaha for the original idea of the constant length of time per period. You're da boss, man. If you want to discuss something, feel free to do so.


I ended up going more or less with people's opinion that simple makes best. I kept RL Earth's time system up to hours a day. I think the 6-day week and the 24-day month is simple enough for people to remember, while 360 days is as close as I could get to a real year length without going into non-round numbers.

Tell me your impressions. I expect a lot of critique here, so don't let me down.

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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:35 am

Okay, since nobody else is saying anything I will. First, I like the idea of having multiple calendars, each of which might still be used in present day Felarya, depending on geographic location. As for the last one, it's clear to see you put some definite work into figuring out how to arrange it all. I'm glad to see my idea not going to waste, too, personally. I do have a little problem with the terminology - while I like that you went for simplicity, the way you describe it sounds like they just happened to name them things that are the same as what we called them in English. Which I think is extremely unlikely. I think it would be more realistic if what they ended up calling each unit just translated into what we call them in English, but that might be seen as kind of a handwave, maybe? I dunno. I can't follow at all any of the details you described about how he rebuilt his clock, myself. I think it might have to be dumbed down a bit, I am sad to say, or maybe just put into layman's terms. I mean, overall it seems like a good system, but as I can't really follow everything that's been put into it I can't say too much about it. I also think there should be some mention of the fact that one of these calendar days could very well take place during a physical nighttime, seeing as their measure is meant to be independent of the actual length of days. At least, that's how it looks in my mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:49 pm

Well, names are not very important right now, I think that discussing the system takes precedence. Besides, I made up most of the name explanations on the spot, and I didn't even mention where "week" came from, so yeah. Can be changed any moment.

The clock explanation isn't really that deep. I just mention him using actinite, and since purity and size affect power output, I felt I should specify them. The sphere description just says that he ends up having a clock with sixty marks around the circle, just like ours. However, it doesn't have big marks every five spots like ours. It just has those sixty marks. It is also mentioned that, when the minute needle completes a whole circle, the hour needle only advances two marks. In our clock, the hour needle advances five marks even though we don't really notice because the hours are signalled big and we get the impression it has only advanced one mark. Internally it's no big deal, just bigger gears, so it can be done.

As for the days, I guess I forgot to state that calendar days are taken from sunrise to sunrise. "Day 1" of the year starts as the sun rises, and ends just as the first rays of sun appear after the night, giving way immediately to "Day 2". It goes this way since there is no way to predict when does the night reach its middle point, uneven as they are, with the only exception of the 120th night, since by then you know all the night lengths of the cycle and substracting them from the total gives you the exact night length of that one night. You know there is the same daylight time if you add up the whole month, so there's really no point in giving each day a set length and risking that a day is made up completely of night time. Also, just a mention. This system works best with a 'normal' day distribution. Sun rises, makes an arch and then sets, giving way to the night. If we go with Thy's theory of the still sun (which says that the sun is high up in the sky, unmoving, then just disappears in the blink of an eye) the system will still work, but it will lose a lot of its prediction power. After all, with the 'normal' day, you can more or less tell how much is left before sunset based on how long the day has been from sunrise to midday (when the sun is at its zenith).

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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:38 am

This is all getting too complicated for me. Consider me out of this conversation.
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PostSubject: Re: Keeping Time in Felarya   

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Keeping Time in Felarya
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