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 Felarya Criminal (under)World

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Shady Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:04 am

Are you absolutely certain that Negav's law are intentionally designed with loopholes and all that you have stated?  Can you show us where you get these sources? Negav is not perfect and there's a lot of crime, but what place is perfect, even in the real world? I think right now we're exploring too much of Negav's legal system and not what sort of crimes would there be in Negav that would most likely be unique to that place?
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:37 am

Well surely one must at least get an idea of what is legal before you can discuss what activites would be illegal. I only menctioned the The Lit Ciggy Bar and the Tourist Guild since I thought they could be major examples of Criminal activity but was confused whenever or not what they are doing was actually considered illegal since the wiki makes it look like they arn't even trying to hide what their doing and Negav just seems to tolerate their presence.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:59 am

That was meant to Bael, sorry for the confusion.  The brothel part of the Lit Ciggy Bar is actually news to me.  I largely ignored that entry since I really don't like that it lists worthless characters since it's not an entry for characters.  Looking at it, the whole brother thing makes absolutely no sense, unless of course the brothel is located in an underground section like the Jaslow Arena used to be in the olden days.  The Felaryan Tourism Guild, I really don't know how it's still standing.  One the one hand, it manages to skirt the line between outright swindling and doing performing a business since supposedly they're not technically doing false advertisement, and it's difficult for survivors to bring proof of their claims.  On the other hand, you'd think the place would have been introduced to flaming molotov cocktails dozens of time over by now, and the people working there would have been cut into red strips of sizzling bacon a long time ago. It doesn't matter how good you are at playing with words, people here knows what Felarya truly is. Greenbeard could slather his words with as much honey as he wants, it ain't gonna change that many people would not listen to him and would prefer to just shank him right here and now. The concept isn't very solidly built is all I'm saying.

Then again, the concept itself is really iffy if you think about it. People in Negav already know what they're signing up themselves to, so there's no way they would fall for the guild, and people from the worlds Negav have a solid relationship with, while more likely to be duped by it, would most likely be stopped by the people who know what the place really is about. It's not as idiotic as the Felaryan Express, that idea should not even exist, but it's up there. Plus, the guild itself really does nothing when it comes to world building. It's really just there. Let's compare that to other places of interest in the Lower Tier.

We have the Adventurers' Guild, which establishes Negav as sort of a magnet for adventurers and wisely offer services to them since it's so lucrative. We have the Jaslow Arena, which establishes that Negavian are fond of displays of fighting prowess, and hints at a bit of a WWE vibe to it, which I'm totally okay with! We have the Hydromancer Guild, which establishes how Negav prefers employing magic-based alternatives to common real life services. We have The Neko's Tail, which establishes that resentment nekos over what happened with Nekomura and events prior to that are still strong, plus that there are illegal activities in bars, in that case, tiny trafficking. The Cremona Maze can be seen as a reminder that the Lower District is poorer since it's mostly inns and bars, and this was an attempt to make a residential district out of it before moving underground. The Not KFC I'm not fond with, but it does nonetheless show that Negavians know their way around the jungle better than the average schmuck who came here just cause there might be a pile of gold somewhere and how to effectively deal with certain threats. It's just the lack of subtlety that bugs me. The smoothie stands, while not very deep, does add a slight Felaryan touch by making something out of a Felaryan native fruit.

The Felaryan Tourism Guild is just a glorified con man's shop, and one that demands too much willing suspension of disbelief in my opinion. Especially since it's rooted in one place. Isn't the con man's best plan when the jig is up to be able to run the fuck away? It ain't easy to do that when you have a whole building instead of just a tent.

I didn't expect to go in a rant like that, but that's what I'm known for.


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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:18 am

I think, when looking at what sorts of crime there would be in Negav, we should start simple. Theft is probably a big one. From there, we can branch out into other things that support it. Black market goods would probably consist of things that help people steal, like (magic) skeleton keys, or safe-cracking artifacts, or intangibility cloaks for walking through things. From there we can stem off into illegal practices of getting these items into Negav undetected, such as underground manufacturing, smuggling, bribery, etc. We can then repeat the process for other simple crimes, like property destruction, which would lead to black market items like explosives, destructive spells and artifacts, etc.

Before you know it, we'll have a huge list of stuff that would more than likely be illegal, right? ^_^ And that's not even getting into Negav-specific crimes which would have systems built around them, too.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:39 am

Nyaha, pretty much every magic item can be potentially helpful in stealing, or cause needless harm if you're the least bit creative with them.  That fire staff?  Well, I can use it cause I specialize in fire magic, or I could use it to burn someone's house for the hell of it.  That earth wand?  I could also use it to punch a hole in someone's wall so I can rob them blind.  I'm a student in charms and enchantments?  Why don't I hypnotize someone into giving me everything he owns, just cause I feel like it? I could go on, but I won't.  Also, magic skeleton keys are redundant.  Skeleton keys by themselves are made to be able to fit in nearly any kind of lock.  Unless, of course, you meant that it can counter a spell that magically secure a lock on top of being used as a regular skeleton key, then it would be a logical concept.  Personally, I think real men use a set of lockpicks and open locks the long, tedious way!

But it does bring up a possibility that laws may differ depending on which Tier you're in.  The Lower Tier may be more lax when it comes to weapon laws since most people there are adventurers who need to have something to defend themselves with.  The Middle and Higher Tier would probably have stricter laws when it comes to handling weapons and magic, the latter would most likely be more lax in the Higher Tier since that's where most Mages would likely live.

While on the subject of illegal goods, let's bring back firearms for a moment.  Since swords, axes, spears, bows, staves and tomes are stated as more common and affordable than firearms in Negav, and the magiocracy is wary of guns since they're wizards and all, how advanced would a gun be before being deemed illegal?  I think it's a safe assumption that Vishmital weapons would definitely be illegal, just the fact someone managed to find a military weapon on the streets should set off some red flags, but beyond that, what firearms would the top brass allow to be sold?  I personally drew the line at old west weapons in my stories.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:03 am

I would think any defensive weapons like 9mm handguns and shotguns would be deemed acceptable for adventurers to have while in the lower tier. Any larger weapons will require a licence, if your a merc then it would be natural for you to be packing some heat so limited licences will be granted in those professions, as long as your offically recognized as belonging to them.

When you get to the Middle Tier check point all guns are probably disallowed outright unless you are an authority figure.

That's my guess anyway
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:28 am

Maybe it could be something like you're allowed to tote around a gun in the Lower Tier, but you need to have a license and some class of guns that have yet to be defined are illegal, whereas in the Middle Tier and higher, it's strict gun laws like in Japan where civilians are not allowed to carry guns at all, license or not. Only law enforcers and soldiers are legally allowed to own firearms. My personal reason for drawing the line at old west weapons is to give the city a sort of an old-timey feel since it's not supposed to be as technologically advanced as our first-world countries, and if the magiocracy is partially responsible for the high prices of guns, something modern like an M16 or AK-47 would cost people an arm and a leg. I can still imagine people bringing more advanced guns from their worlds, but not sell them legally.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:55 am

I think Nyaha meant items more specifically attributable to crimes. I know you can still make an argument that when concerning magic, everything can be used for anything, and therefore "specifically attributable" is irrelevant, but that kind of response will never get us anywhere.

Okay, made some notes to put together here. I think we should gather up all the types of crimes, or at least the ones we can agree upon that would be considered criminal (at first), then narrow things down, or adjust, based on what would make sense and what wouldn't. To start:

-Black Market
>Illegal Auctions probably associated
>Likely supported by Gangs/Mafia/etc, low key, "in the know" but big, well protected blah blah blah...

-Professional Gangs/Mafia(or Yakuza. Naming it something else might be fun)
>I think they'd mostly be in lower tier
>might support or own a shop(s)/part of industry for assisted income, or tax their members like a government to continue supporting themselves. Dunno.
>Smuggling through hidden passageways

-Tiny Trafficking/Slavery
>slavery of minor/nonhuman races like inus, nekos, (an elf if some stupidly rich guy has a personal vendetta against their snootiness, which I can see), (likewise, one of those races rich enough to enslave a human), other smaller versions of giant predator races like nagas that live in the city, or smuggled in.

-prostitution
>defined possibly as vaginal sex, with intentional loophole because sex trade in Negav may be vital part of economy (almost directly copying Japan here, apologies)

-Drugs and Poisons
>either to any extent is self explanatory I think, as far as what they are, and poisons do work if intense enough. We've discussed this in the past. Green Pit Viper venom for example is so lethal if you don't get medical attention in two minutes you're pretty much a goner. Soil cannot heal that fast.

I also believe mentioning some of Negav's weaknesses, if this gets a page in the wiki unto itself.
>Sewers are obvious necessity, and sensors might be placed in hidden areas. If removed, large detachment will likely be inbound, so it'd probably be better for a gang to find a way to circumvent the sensor, depending on what and how it sensors things. If they even do sensor sewers.
>Underground caves might be another option, leading into the undercity or into various areas of the sewers. At this point it'd be such a maze that going in there might be dangerous and not recommended. Might be why they're used by criminals Razz.

How's that for a start? I'd write a big long series of entries, but I don't think they're developed enough yet to do that. After we get done what we think would be viable as criminal underworld-worthy, we can work on basic laws that will support these ideas, as well as citizen safety being true. I think. Or at least a section on Negav politics, in the end.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:03 am

I don't think there should be an entry for crimes. It's nice to discuss what kind of crimes one might expect somewhere, but if you make an entry of what crimes there are in Negav, you're essentially saying "This is what is considered a crime in Negav and nothing outside of this list is considered a crime."
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:06 am

Not necessarily. There will always be things we haven't considered. However, I've included a lot, except for arson and vandalism, which includes arson in it, I believe. Just take real world examples and use them.

Shady, the wiki is always updated, you know this. When we find something new to put on that page, we'll just add more to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:13 am

To be honest. The fact that I see people carrying around BIG ASS SWORDS willy-nilly make me thing that guns are the least problems of being illegal. The only reason why guns aren't really a high presence (like we discussed before) Is because they aren't high in demand in Negav due to cultural and societal norms. I'd rather keep it at that then say "Oh yeah, guns are illegal in the middle tier" (where the biggest of trade happens to be). And rather say representing the customer that would sell guns "Well not very many common people know what it is, It's easy to explain but for some reason or another they like getting up close with swords and witt. This is for those who like range." It's not like guns are the most dangerous weapon either. I'd be scared of knives or small swords then guns because you can be maliciously covert about killing someone with that...many times; then a fire arm. Through my experience anyways. I do agree though that Guns would be a higher cost of money because of economic and social reasoning rather than the fact that it's an intimidation weapon. As if magic its isn't even more intimidating and other enchanted self defense (or offensive if you think about like that) rules of conflict, guns would be the least of my worries being illegal.

That's why i kind of Like it in the state i formerly lived in where. "If you fire or want to get in tussle with someone with knives ,you better have a damn good reason or else your arrested or worse case scenario. Get fire and stabbed at yourself." Not only that but if other people have weapons around the would belligerent, it would prompt the said to do less stupid stuff because you have a high chance of getting killed by a "do gooder citizen avenger" rather than the law enforcement at first, kind of like the wild west back in the day.

Since Negav is more like a second world country with a lot of stability. I don't imagine people shooting or killing each other much but in the ghetto or slums like in the lower tier Point being.I know the magiocrats are strict (for control) but I can see the middle and low tier being loose with weapon restriction then the high tier where it's states that there is Nobles and V.I.Ps hanging about so why wouldn't you do a weapons check or a high case of restriction where you authorized a licences where there's obviously people of influence?

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:27 am

Um, Bael, the wiki isn't constantly updating.  It hasn't updated in a while now and updates are rarely substantial to begin with. If it were updating constantly, I probably wouldn't be here bitching about all the inconsistencies I keep catching.  Furthermore, your idea of including every single activity that is considered a crime in Negav as its own separate entry, could instead be a paragraph in Negav's existing entry that sums up how crime is high in Negav, with con men, thieves, pickpockets, smugglers and even greedy mob bosses making a living in the streets, instead of the black on white list.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:34 pm

There's lots of different aspects to crime, which I listed out. I also said I know I haven't included everything, but those are still points we've brought up at some point, and would like to flesh out, so we can get another aspect of Negav worked on.

Regardless how consistent wiki updates have been lately.

Also Ravaging Vixens, you'd be surprised how expensive swords can get. Then again, some guns get up and over $1400 as well, same as real high quality swords. Just depends on what you buy I think, but in Negav, it'd the process in which the weapon was obtained, since that's real important more so than anything else. (Such as factoring in labor and tax and whatever else)
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:43 pm

I think prices of swords and whatnot would be far lower in Negav since they're much more common than they are nowadays and would be higher in demand.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:45 pm

Its kind of irrelevant anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:51 pm

Oh, something of a rule I have with Negav in my stories which I think is relevant, though kind of goes without saying: never go out at night. If you're outside at night in Negav, you're almost guaranteed to get jumped by thugs and thieves, even if you're nowhere near a back alley, and Negav doesn't have a Batman to keep you safe as far as I'm aware.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:43 pm

I would have thought the main street of Negav would be okay to walk on at night, and perhaps a few areas around any major hotspots.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:00 pm

I don't think bars would close at night. Hey, as long as thugs pay for their drinks, they're considered customers and customers are good for business. That said, I would see muggers worth their grain of salt preying on drunks who drink whisky all night and then have to attempt to drag their wobbly, drunken asses back to the inn. At the very least, since the streets are not made for normal vehicles, you don't have to worry about drunk drivers.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:19 pm

Oh yeah, I am sure muggers will try to do that. In fact they are probably not even going to wait until they spot a drunk and instead will spike someone's drink when they arn't looking.

Which is why 'safty in numbers' would apply, even when its inside a Negav pub
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:42 am

Speaking of spiking, I imagine poisoning would be illegal, because having soil that heals would give a lot of people the false sense that they'll be fine, when there's a lot of poisons out there too strong for the soil. Not to mention the danger poison poses to the magiocrats too, because if someone poisons one of them, then there's not a lot they can do about it. Its not like they can get to a hospital in five minutes.

I imagine tinies (since apparently specialize in poison to overcome larger opponents) would sell specially crafted poisons on the black market, jealously guarding their secrets.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:17 am

Where in any developed country would poisoning ever be legalized?
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:00 am

If I can just chime in again, I think the main point I was trying to make in my post was lost: start simple. I think you guys are all trying to dive into the complex stuff too quickly without setting the basics first. You've talked about crime syndicates, hidden entrances to Negav, smuggling rings, Magiocrats and the oppressiveness or lack thereof of their regime, gun control, etc etc.

I personally think Bael was kind of on the right track in gathering a list of illegal activities. For the purpose of this thread, which is to discuss Negav's underworld of crime and maybe develop some ideas for crime rings/syndicates/Team Rockets, knowing what kinds of crime exist in Negav in the first place would be, in my opinion, a good, basic place to start.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:00 pm

Well yeah, poisoning of people would be illegal. But the sale and possession of it woulden't be, given that people are going to need pest control substances, unless they hire nekos for that kind of thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:20 pm

You know, Nekos as pest control makes a lot of sense, especially for Felarya, and it certainly would be a tad unnerving to see something like your neighbor act like the giant monsters you've heard so many stories about right in front of your eyes, especially if they engage in typical cat behavior where they tire out their prey so they put up less resistance before eating them.

Of course, that concerns only rodents and not bugs.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:27 pm

Funny thought I gained from a friend.But wouldn't it be the same with magically gardening Dryads? Along the lines of what you were saying Shady I can see a fanatical group of tree huggers grow one to huge proportions (through time) by accident or intention.Said people being a Earthmancer or a druid of a sort. So security would have to be looking for those maniacs or restrict what kind of dryad is allowed so it can't grow to predator size. or not keeping them in their homes altogether because they're sentient. Something Cops/security would turn a dumb blind eye too at times xD.

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