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Shady Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:22 pm

A thought occurred to me when it comes to Negav. I would imagine carrying weapons would be legal, but I would also imagine that said weapons would have to be visible on the person's body, because nothing screams assassin like concealed weapons, especially is said person is wearing a long and loose garment like a cloak.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:20 pm

List so far:
 

Anyway, the question is how to organize all of this so we include all the information, and what else we should include, like various criminal organizations, and dangerous areas of negav. Such as "This neighborhood as concentrated mafia activity, and so does that area..." or however else we might identify it.

Also, thank you Nyaha.

For Clarification:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:03 pm

Shady Knight wrote:
A thought occurred to me when it comes to Negav.  I would imagine carrying weapons would be legal, but I would also imagine that said weapons would have to be visible on the person's body, because nothing screams assassin like concealed weapons, especially is said person is wearing a long and loose garment like a cloak.

That seems a bit cliche.... just because someone doesn't wanna show everyone what they look like doesn't mean they are assassins!

*A group of cloaked tinies scurry into Shady-Knight's house*
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri May 02, 2014 10:28 am

I should have come back earlier, there are a lot of points that have been discussed here that I would have liked to comment on... I'll have to make a wall of text, even though I know it turns some people off when there are too many things to read and answer to.

Okay, first, I'd like to address the misconception of hybrids not being allowed into the city. It's half and half, really, since taurs are allowed inside, though rarely and with exceptions. Hybrids that are seen as potentially dangerous to human-sized humanoids are banned from entering, which normally means Nagas and Dridders because they have little problems with eating a creature as big as they are. But I'm guessing even that may have little exceptions if the guards on duty happen to be friendly and the Naga has somehow demonstrated a non-predatory life. I'm positive orders could be issued allowing such specific individuals to enter Negav certain days or something. But that's speculation on my part, let's fetch the evidence:


Wiki, Negav page, The City section wrote:
There is only two entrances to the city and both of them are heavily guarded not only by weapons, but also all manner of detection devices and identification spells, to ensure that nothing sneaks in that isn't welcome.
This part only specifies the gate security, nothing is said about what is welcome or not.

Wiki, Negav page, Negavian People section wrote:
Negavians are naturally cautious of non-humans. With so many beings coming from other worlds, they have developed at least a certain tolerance toward them, but they aren't welcoming them with open arms either. For example many taverns and bars would refuse entry to creatures with too many arms or inhuman features. The situation is even worse for tauric beings. Simply entering Negav is very difficult for them, and the few who are admitted feel an acute and unrelenting latent hostility all around them.
This, however, tells us that hybrids and taurs are indeed allowed inside. It's most probable that outer world visits -commercial or otherwise- coming from the Dimensional Gate are allowed even if they are largely inhuman, while native human-sized hybrids have a more difficult access to the city.

Wiki, Negav's Surrounding Area page, Motamo Docks section wrote:
Smaller hybrid species, such as small dridders or nagas, occasionally attempt to move towards civilization, or to seek protection from the big predators that prey on them. However, there are laws in place barring these races from entering Negav, as Negavians mostly doesn't trust them - smaller nagas and dridders can still be dangerous, even if they appear to be able to pass through the anti-predatory field of the Isolon Eye.
While this fragment can be interpreted as saying that all human-sized hybrids are banned from entering Negav, only Nagas and Dridders are mentioned, and the prohibition does indeed make sense for those two, but not the rest. Of course, other human-sized taurs could attack and kill humanoids, but only Nagas and Dridders have the ability of eating them "whole"; other races would need to chop their victims up in order to feed, and we know that is almost never going to happen. Besides, most races don't have enough appetite to completely eat a creature their own size. Negav government may or may not know this last thing, but they are bound to know about the eating capabilities of Nagas and Dridders, hence the norm.

I'm overlooking the reference in The Fringelis Star bar about Nagas going in there, since I think it's another section that hasn't been updated accordingly with the latest changes. It is interesting, though, that it does mention Nemesises, as they are mentioned in the Chronology too, hinting at some types of hybrids being allowed into the city.

So, now, how to apply this to crime? Well, first off, now you can have tauric criminals. That, however, should be very diminished by the controls at the gate; it's obvious that the guards won't let even a scarcely suspicious hybrid into the city. The smuggled Dridder or Naga egg method would still work, though, as well as newborn hybrids who are brought to life by resident species. Crime could take a new dimension in the Pit if criminals could count with the aid of a Dridder in their ranks.



Moving on to access methods, I'd like to point out that guards are not all the same and some could accept a little "encouragement" to let a moderately suspicious person through, or to overlook a dubious material hidden within your cargo. This is more likely to work with guards in sewage entrances because the guard number would be smaller, and the place isn't that "respectable", so to say, so guards sent there are more likely to be of lesser rank or even have been punished with service there, making them more susceptible to bribes and blind eye affliction. I don't think there would be many secret entrances to Negav, though I will admit I always thought there was a direct entrance to the Pit from outside the city wall. That misunderstanding was cleared when Negav's map came up.

I've also been thinking about smuggling methods that don't involve getting the cargo into the city through the gates. Small packages could be sent in using one of the tiny harpies trained to be messengers. Also, if you have contacts among the wall's guards, you could stealthily deliver a package to the top using some magic in a blind spot or using a distraction to divert attention. The wall itself is covered in Xythium, so no holes, there, but maybe people could find a way to dig a small hole under the wall so an object could be dropped into a hole and it would slide safely down an inclined tunnel ending at the Pit.



My impression of Negav is very much like Bael's. Negav's crimes aren't looked into too much unless they are deemed important, like a noble or something. Shady brings up the thing about the Magiocrat rule not being too harsh because there could be a revolt, but in reality they are not that much to blame. Negav Police is said to be corrupt and the ones who are part of it, mainly volunteers of different factions and races, tend to fight among themselves and give importance to matters of their own groups. So generally, people would blame the police for their slowness of action and incapability of solving crimes, not the government. Magiocrats can't do much because it's voluntary work. Greater, more immediate threats are dealt with more swiftly, though, since they probably fall under the Investigators line of work.



On the subject of prostitution and brothels, well, we do have the Lit Ciggy bar, but there's also another place to take into account, the Street of Red Flowers:


Wiki, Negav Middle Tier page wrote:
Street of Red Flowers
The Street of Red Flowers is a long avenue in Negav. It is, as the name would suggest, lined with trees that blossom the most brilliant shade of crimson. The street is marked off at both ends by massive gates, although these almost always remain open. They exist mainly as a symbol of the boundary that exists here. Indeed, the Street of Red Flowers is one area of Negav where many laws are "suspended." It has thus become one of the cities foremost entertainment districts, with gambling, drinking of suspect beverages and the meeting of women of questionable virtue being regular occurrences. However, The Street is by no means a slum or a poor area. The buildings here are some of the most elegant in Negav, and markedly different with their archaic architecture. Everything here is kept under tight control, even if it is not apparent. It is a place of color, festivities, and excess, as well as elegance and beauty. There are often slow, strange and mesmerizing parades that move up and down the street at night. It is a realm of fantasy, but one that is separated - what happens on the Street of Red Flowers stays there.
So this area seems to imply there are indeed laws on prostitution, as well as gambling and on certain beverages. Probably the strongest ones, or those that have adverse effects other than getting you drunk. It isn't too clear, but my bet is that criminal organizations would get a fair deal of benefit from engaging on those activities, even if they were to be legal.



I don't really buy Shady's suggestion of laws being different from Tier to Tier, that would mean security checks at the entrance of each Tier in order to ensure that you don't come into a Tier with an illegal object that is allowed in a different Tier. The weapon restriction in the Middle Tier specially is impracticable, more so if you think that there's not such restriction in the Higher Tier. How are you supposed to get a Middle-Tier-banned weapon from the Lower Tier to the Higher Tier? And then, you have the Grand Market in the Middle Tier, and they are most likely offering Middle-Tier-banned weapons to Lower Tier residents that come over to buy. An adventurer residing in the Middle Tier -not unheard of, specially if it's an Elf in the Elven District- would have to leave his weapons somewhere in the Lower Tier before going back home from adventuring. I think it's too complicated, city-wide laws are the best approach, in my opinion.



Bael's list of crimes goes in the right direction, I'd say. Since we do know what is legal, we should at least lay down what definitely isn't legal so we can at least work out something. I find the list surprisingly empty of common crimes, such as theft, kidnapping, assassination, extortion, information dealing (includes espionage), forced labour... and I think I'm not leaving anything. Well, there's also sexual assault, but that crime isn't a business.

I have a criminal group well under planning that acts a bit as specified under the "Citizen militia" entry, defending an area from other criminals and collecting "protection taxes" to the inhabitants of said place. That among other criminal activities. I have also taken advantage of Karbo's map of Negav to mark the areas of influence of such an organization (black) and sympathisers (blue).
Spoiler:
 

Yes, it's supposed to be a big organization, but it has less presence in the Pit than in the surface.



Lastly, I don't go with what Shady says about night either. Sure, it's more dangerous than daylight, but I think Negav has the right elements to house a budding night life, with the high crime preventing it to realize its full potential. I haven't written much on it, but in the parts of my story where I have, and in some RPs too, I've described night as an enjoyable time when the descent in amount of people, and also the intimacy, allows for amazing shows and suggestive street spectacles to take place. Taverns also stay open till high time in the morning, serving drinks and providing live music to night enthusiasts or people that just want to blow off steam and have fun after a hard day of work. Crime is still a threat, but only if you tread dark streets alone.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri May 02, 2014 10:51 am

Ilceren, the wiki says "Smaller hybrid species, SUCH AS small dridders or nagas", as in, "Smaller hybrid species, like small dridders or nagas", not "Only small dridders or nagas are banned, everything else is cool beans".

Also, your argument about nagas and dridders being rejected on the ground that they eat humans whole, unlike small pantaurs, makes no sense.  Yes, they are able to swallow a human whole, or close enough in the case of a dridder, without having to rip its throat out like a pantaur would.  But you forget that we're talking about creatures roughly the same size as each other.  At these sizes, humans can put up much, MUCH more resistance against their would be captor than they would against their giant cousin.  What happens is that the naga and the dridder will need to find a way to ensure their prey can't resist anymore first, which usually means killing them anyway before eating them.  This wouldn't be an instantaneous process either.  A naga would have to constrict a human until it passes out from asphyxiation or its ribcage collapses, and in the case of a dridder, partially digest them first or whatever real spiders do, which also means cocooning the prey before that so it can't resist.  In the end, it's no different from a small pantaur ripping your throat out and eating your raw flesh.  In fact, a pantaur would be even more shunned in Negav simply because its method of killing its prey before eating it is much faster and efficient than either a naga or a dridder.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri May 02, 2014 5:35 pm

You are right, I did see that "such as" in the first part, but then took the later examples of, again, small Nagas and Dridders as the only ones who were banned from entering. I still think that those two species have it more their way if they wanted to score a piece without rising much suspicion. Following your example, a Pantaur would make quite a mess, while a Naga or a Dridder wouldn't leave a trace (Dridders would use venom to kill, paralyse or sleep their prey) and they would just have to hide. The person would be just missing, not obviously dead. The only other "clean" killer I can think of are Nemesises.

In any case, let's say your point is true. There is a rule that bans entrance to all hybrids. This leads to inevitable conflict with the previous quote, then, which states that hybrids can enter Negav, though it's difficult for them to get clearance. ¿Should we assume they are contradicting each other and we need some Word of God here, or in the other hand assume that it is because of that rule that hybrids have it very tough to get a clearance? Even if we overlook the Fringelis Star bar, there is at least one reference I can remember now in the Chronology that implies there were hybrids inside the city, and not excessively back in time.


That said, any thoughts on my other points?

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri May 02, 2014 6:24 pm

It doesn't really matter that one is a cleaner killer than the others, anyone is a potential killer given the proper tools and the proper set-up. The reason Dridders, Nagas, Pantaurs and the like have it rough is solely because they have to live with the stigma of their giant cousins being notorious man-eaters in the wild and people apparently their smaller cousins are no different.

As a whole, I believe the wiki needs to be completely rewritten, or at least most it.  The reason is because a lot of articles have been written long ago, but while new ideas came up over the years, no article has really been rewritten to reflect the change, more like the new ideas were patched over the old ones, which lead to many a inconsistency and contradictions throughout multiple pages.  A big rewrite would help make things look more cohesive.

Anyway, my only real problem is the whole "Police is corrupt" thing.  Maybe it's just my general bias, but I generally hate the Police is Useless trope, unless there's a logical justification, which in this case, there isn't.  I doubly dislike it because, according to some of Negav's history, the old police was overly brutal, and due to this and other factors, the Magiocrats were forced to disband it, and as a result, the current police is essentially a disorganized ragtag bunch of misfits who prefer bickering among themselves.  In many ways, this is worse.  Sure, the old police force supposedly employed too much fear and brutality to keep people in check, but at least they did their job.  Worse yet, we know that one of the council members, Thelandros, one of the three founding members of the council even, is in charge of the police, but since it's so ineffectual, I think people would complain even louder that he's obviously not doing his job.

In all fairness, I think crimes that involved the big wigs taking priorities over other ones make sense, but that the police is almost universally seen as completely useless to the point of not even being there just irks me.  You would think that by now someone, anyone would have stepped up and taken charge of the whole thing.  And really, I don't like the concept of the citizen militia.  To me it exists only to reinforce the uselessness of the police, and I don't like it.  I would much rather prefer if the police, while not squeaky clean, can't really keep up with the flow of criminals simply because, well, there's a lot of them!  Lots of people come from the Dimensional Gate, that means a lot of criminals among them.

The way I would have written it, I would have things be incredibly rocky when the new police was formed, mostly due to the old cops being completely butt hurt and the rising tension between the Vishmitals and the Magiocrats at the time, but things got better over time, and while the new force isn't perfect, still has some internal conflict among the most loyal members of each faction, and it definitely has its share of crooked cops, it also has its share of straight, competent cops, and the popular perception that they're slow to act is because the force prioritizes cases that involves the upper class.  I think that would be a fair compromise, it shows that the force is not all good, but not all bad either.  I honestly feel like the way the police is currently written as useless for the sake of being useless.  If it were played for laughs, like Springfield's police force in The Simpsons, I wouldn't mind it, but here it's not played for laughs.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Sat May 03, 2014 2:51 pm

I think it's just the 'Mook' trope coming into play

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mooks

Noone really writes about the Negav police (or much about the Negav people at all) so they normaly just become mooks who's incompertance only serve to make the Adventurer/predator prontagonists appear better in comparison.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Sat May 03, 2014 2:56 pm

You're thinking about the Red Shirts. Mooks are the Bad Guy (tm)'s henchmen that must die by the hundreds at the end of the heroes. But we're getting off topic again.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Sun May 04, 2014 8:21 am

So another idea how to inflitrate the city, given that Karbo has now introduced airships, it would be quite a task to properly examine any cargo airships coming into the city since they would have to fly over the wall and miss the gate.

Every ship that wants to enter the city will most likely to have on board expectations by guards who are posted above the wall, but how thorough would the searches be? there's tons of tricks you could employ here.

You could something hidden inside the walls of the craft, secret compartments.

If it's a cargo ship, then the old trick of smuggling something among avarage stuff could be employed. If you are importing barrels of typical fish, are the guards really going to check everyone of them to discover that the few barrols in the very middle are filled with illegal goods or has someone hiding in them to bypass secuirty. Especially if the particular fish you are using as a cover has a offputting smell?



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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Sun May 04, 2014 8:56 am

Well that's assuming security employ mages. To elaborate on what security is around the walls, it says it includes "all manner of detection devices and identification spells, to ensure that nothing sneaks in that isn't welcome." Naturally, it doesn't elaborate beyond that, but I guess the general consensus is that at least illusions and invisibility are out the window as viable options. Identification is a little shaky. It could mean it identify magic items, so they know something that looks like a normal bow isn't actually an evil weapon, it's gonna get caught, or if it also identify mundane items, like the trick of making the barrels reek like fish to fool guards into thinking they're importing fish.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Mon May 05, 2014 9:34 am

Well it's a great  thread that made all sort of gear turning in my head while reading it ^^
I am sorry to not have read it earlier.. I have been insanely busy with my job for those last several weeks but hopefully it's going to go back to normal this week Smile

There are a lot of good points and questions posed here.

On The topic of sewers :  Yes Negav has definitely a sewer system with even a fauna like mapets or micrats living in it. Officially there are only two entrances in Negav, but it would be surprising if there are not some hidden entrances used by shady people. It's a large city and some people can be incredibly ingenious when it comes to go around laws and rules.

The Magiocrat rule : It's a complex subject because we can't really compare it to anything that exist on earth. Magiocrats are definitely authoritarians and, like all figures of power, they are corrupted to some extent. I don't see them as benevolent rulers but without being tyrants either. For example if you published and distributed an offensive pamphlet attacking one of the council members who become aware of it, you would run into troubles. If a magiocrat does a prejudiciable act to you and you complaint to the police, the police would look the other way. The regime in Negav is clearly not a democracy with freedom of speech, it's more akin to a police state if you will. But people accept it because of the eye and the security.  In a world like Felarya, security is everything. Magiocrats rules through fear, but unlike an usual dictatorship it's no through fear of their power but fear of what would happens without it. This allow them some room to maneuver.
And magiocrats are definitely not all good-doers, far from it. Grammon has been cited in example but he is more an exception than the rule.
Seluvine can be pretty ruthless if you stand in her way, Thelandros despises people without magic, Lesona is.. Lesona. As for those who don't have a description yet :
Amithep is known for his hot blood and his wrath can be frightening. Trebiz is a smiling and seemingly affable man in charge of intelligence. He is cold and cruel. Mistrago is a pretty ok council member although he lives in excess and Teraph has become arrogant and greedy over the years. So yeah.. they are not really what you would call good people ^^;

Hybrid races in Negav : Yes they exist. If you were searching you would pretty much find representants of each species inside the walls. They are clandestine for the most part, having been brought by all sort of way that has been brought up in the thread : smuggling, eggs. Some of them also entered through the main gates but it's very difficult to do. And once you are in, you would be treated automatically as third class citizens. If you were a naga and you tried to go in broad daylight in the middle tier, you wouldn't make 10 meters before being called out by guards asking you what the hell is your business here.

For the type of criminality, well i am not very knowledgeable on the subject but I would imagine a lot of the criminality in Negav being of the mafia type. Like demanding a "protection fee" from the inhabitants of the district under your control, or they are not "protected" and bad things start to happens. Then black market of course, this one is a big part. Trafficking, smuggling etc.. that is allowed to thrive.
It's not that the police is just incompetent, but like it has been pointed, there are a lot of criminals, because the city is harsh and many of the adventurers who come to Negav have questionable motives and shady morality. And those criminals are typically pretty tough, hardened and well trained. They represent quite a challenge for the authorities in Negav.


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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Mon May 05, 2014 10:10 pm

Karbo wrote:
The Magiocrat rule : It's a complex subject because we can't really compare it to anything that exist on earth. Magiocrats are definitely authoritarians and, like all figures of power, they are corrupted to some extent. I don't see them as benevolent rulers but without being tyrants either. For example if you published and distributed an offensive pamphlet attacking one of the council members who become aware of it, you would run into troubles. If a magiocrat does a prejudiciable act to you and you complaint to the police, the police would look the other way. The regime in Negav is clearly not a democracy with freedom of speech, it's more akin to a police state if you will. But people accept it because of the eye and the security. In a world like Felarya, security is everything. Magiocrats rules through fear, but unlike an usual dictatorship it's no through fear of their power but fear of what would happens without it. This allow them some room to maneuver.
And magiocrats are definitely not all good-doers, far from it. Grammon has been cited in example but he is more an exception than the rule.Seluvine can be pretty ruthless if you stand in her way, Thelandros despises people without magic, Lesona is.. Lesona. As for those who don't have a description yet :
Amithep is known for his hot blood and his wrath can be frightening. Trebiz is a smiling and seemingly affable man in charge of intelligence. He is cold and cruel. Mistrago is a pretty ok council member although he lives in excess and Teraph has become arrogant and greedy over the years. So yeah.. they are not really what you would call good people ^^;

Wha?! Seriously not even one Magiocrat portrays being good? Not even as a political act?? O_o Never knew that. Hmm I worried that Mobius and some of the other Magiocrats in the Ascarlin Cirlce would attract the wrong kind of attention if they weren't at least mock good in the public's eyes...Now I wonder if I should stop hiding some of their more "obviously evil" traits. <.<

Karbo wrote:
If you were a naga and you tried to go in broad daylight in the middle tier, you wouldn't make 10 meters before being called out by guards asking you what the hell is your business here.

What?! I thought human sized Nagas didn't get that much persecution. o.o; Hmm you make me wonder how they might react if one opened a Salvage Operation in the city...I may have to move Sally's buisiness to Matamo Docks. ^^;
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Tue May 06, 2014 5:36 am

I'm arguing with semantics here, but what exactly do you mean by Seluvine can be pretty ruthless if you get in her way.  How exactly do you get in her way to begin with?  She has it all, I don't see how the average joe could cockblock her for anything.  If you mean that she absolutely hate it when things don't go her way, be they in politics or whatever, and that she believes the end justifies the means, then it should just be worded that way from the beginning.

In any case, how prevalent are those mafia like organizations on the surface and how much of a hold do they have on districts as a whole? I know the idea is that the Underground is entirely, or at least almost entirely dominated by them, but how much of Negav on the surface of under their control? I think Cremona maze is obvious, but what else would be, if at all?

Also, you say it's difficult, but possible for tauric species to enter Negav via the main entrances. How difficult do you mean exactly? Under what usual circumstances are the guards going to make an exception to that one dridder, but not other ones? You gotta give us examples, you gotta be specific, cause we can't read your mind and just know what you meant exactly. Just saying "it's difficult, but possible" can mean a dozen different things.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Tue May 06, 2014 8:27 am

Karbo wrote:
Well it's a great  thread that made all sort of gear turning in my head while reading it ^^
I am sorry to not have read it earlier.. I have been insanely busy with my job for those last several weeks but hopefully it's going to go back to normal this week Smile

There are a lot of good points and questions posed here.

On The topic of sewers :  Yes Negav has definitely a sewer system with even a fauna like mapets or micrats living in it. Officially there are only two entrances in Negav, but it would be surprising if there are not some hidden entrances used by shady people. It's a large city and some people can be incredibly ingenious when it comes to go around laws and rules.

The Magiocrat rule : It's a complex subject because we can't really compare it to anything that exist on earth. Magiocrats are definitely authoritarians and, like all figures of power, they are corrupted to some extent. I don't see them as benevolent rulers but without being tyrants either. For example if you published and distributed an offensive pamphlet attacking one of the council members who become aware of it, you would run into troubles. If a magiocrat does a prejudiciable act to you and you complaint to the police, the police would look the other way. The regime in Negav is clearly not a democracy with freedom of speech, it's more akin to a police state if you will. But people accept it because of the eye and the security.  In a world like Felarya, security is everything. Magiocrats rules through fear, but unlike an usual dictatorship it's no through fear of their power but fear of what would happens without it. This allow them some room to maneuver.
And magiocrats are definitely not all good-doers, far from it. Grammon has been cited in example but he is more an exception than the rule.
Seluvine can be pretty ruthless if you stand in her way, Thelandros despises people without magic, Lesona is.. Lesona. As for those who don't have a description yet :
Amithep is known for his hot blood and his wrath can be frightening. Trebiz is a smiling and seemingly affable man in charge of intelligence. He is cold and cruel. Mistrago is a pretty ok council member although he lives in excess and Teraph has become arrogant and greedy over the years. So yeah.. they are not really what you would call good people ^^;

Sounds like an Oligarchy mixed with with some form of authoritarian Aristocracy. There's nothing similar today but if there was a way to explain it, it would be that.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Tue May 06, 2014 1:12 pm

ravaging vixens wrote:
Sounds like an Oligarchy mixed with with some form of authoritarian Aristocracy. There's nothing similar today but if there was a way to explain it, it would be that.

Yeah that's a really similar explanation.

Could also be the United States, believe it or not. A lot of the rich families are related somehow as well.

The only thing we're missing is the Aristocracy. Oh wait, the richest 1%, never mind. I think Chicago is a perfect example of Negav. Chicago has crime everywhere, police don't respond because its too dangerous or they don't care for whatever reason, there's lots of gangs and violence there, but yet there's still people in the middle who are white collar, good artistic people.

Shady Knight wrote:
I'm arguing with semantics here, but what exactly do you mean by Seluvine can be pretty ruthless if you get in her way. How exactly do you get in her way to begin with? She has it all, I don't see how the average joe could cockblock her for anything. If you mean that she absolutely hate it when things don't go her way, be they in politics or whatever, and that she believes the end justifies the means, then it should just be worded that way from the beginning.

Not really. I got exactly what he meant, and so did you, apparently. Granted its not worded the best way, but you can still get it - unless someone doesn't understand an absurdly rich mage in power wouldn't have everything, thus leading you to that conclusion in the first place wouldn't happen.

Shady Knight wrote:
In any case, how prevalent are those mafia like organizations on the surface and how much of a hold do they have on districts as a whole? I know the idea is that the Underground is entirely, or at least almost entirely dominated by them, but how much of Negav on the surface of under their control? I think Cremona maze is obvious, but what else would be, if at all?


Due to the technology level, and how well trained the average joe in Negav is, I would venture to guess that mafias can be fairly open about what they do, as long as they operate within "obviously legal" boundaries. IE on the surface their business is legitimate, even though its not, there's no documentation proving otherwise, and in the event of a search, the guards for that mafia's place are well protected by people who are very skilled, making a serious threat to the force at hand (unless vishmitals are doing it, but they're not S.W.A.T.) which would only make them hesitant to do so. So yeah. I'm assuming they can be fairly open and not have too much to worry about.

Though I'm sure fighting and police raids are semi-common, since I don't think the mafias would ally with each other against the police anyway, because they're all against each other, and taking out another mafia is more profitable than trying to take out the police.

Shady Knight wrote:
Also, you say it's difficult, but possible for tauric species to enter Negav via the main entrances. How difficult do you mean exactly? Under what usual circumstances are the guards going to make an exception to that one dridder, but not other ones? You gotta give us examples, you gotta be specific, cause we can't read your mind and just know what you meant exactly. Just saying "it's difficult, but possible" can mean a dozen different things.

Uh...do you mean make up examples out of thin air? Personally I find this request of yours to be a bit...like you're complaining for the sake of it. Examples I wouldn't oppose, but the point would be to just give a good idea of how hard it would be. Something like a corrupt guard, a guard who was bought off, a guard who's secretly friendly with one of them, etc would be sensible - how difficult would it be for a Black person to go to white Church in Alabama 1950s? These can be listed in the description of it, but...what do you mean exactly? I'm not even sure myself.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Tue May 06, 2014 2:40 pm

You just answered your own question, Bael. I'm trying to make things less ambiguous and more concrete. What I'm trying to get across is that the wiki needs more precision. With my example with Seluvine, yes, I got the meaning behind it, but it doesn't change that it was a guess. For all I know, I still could have guessed it wrong. Which of the next two descriptions is more clear? "She is pretty ruthless if you get in her way"? Or "She despises having her goals or ambitions don't go the wau she intends to, be they from trivial circumstances such as poor luck or from someone else's intervention, and has no qualm using whatever mean it takes to rectify what she perceives as a mistake"?

As for the taurs and getting in through the main entrances, same thing, which of the two gives us much more concrete information? "It's very difficult for a naga to enter through the main gates"? Or "It's very difficult for a naga to enter through the main gates. Some manage to purchase the silence of guards, while others receive help through certain... connections. Either way, this happens very rarely, as many Negavian guards would rather kick out anything resembling the monstrous man-eaters roaming the jungle, and some even go so far as seeing the idea of associating with them akin to betrayal"?

This is what the wiki needs so there isn't as much ambiguity anymore.

Anyway, back to the actual topic, the whole "protection fee" from the mafia dudes is what bugs me. I can see that happen in the Underground and the Cremona maze, maybe the street of the red flower too, but where else would that happen? Karbo mentioned guards in the middle tier, either at the gate leading to the middle tier or patrols, which would imply that the police isn't as incompetent as people make it to be. The way I see it, it would be exceedingly difficult or not impossible for a crime lord to try and take over a district in the middle tier or higher.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Tue May 06, 2014 5:53 pm

Archmage_Bael wrote:
Yeah that's a really similar explanation.

Could also be the United States, believe it or not. A lot of the rich families are related somehow as well.

The only thing we're missing is the Aristocracy. Oh wait, the richest 1%, never mind. I think Chicago is a perfect example of Negav. Chicago has crime everywhere, police don't respond because its too dangerous or they don't care for whatever reason, there's lots of gangs and violence there, but yet there's still people in the middle who are white collar, good artistic people.

Really hope your joking because i can find a better real world example then a the United states on a lot of factors. (1% relates to aristocracy? Not exactly, but wow you need to look into corporations more if you think it's just them make the most PROFOUND influence.) Anyways i can find a country that fits closer to the description then the United stated. Like i dunno, the Russian federation with their worse,Russian Mafia, and  some parts of south america. Can give you a whole list that is less to a "Republic" power structure because people literally choose or have the freedom to be that way in chicago, and hence why other state police agencies or private contractors are sometime hired out their >.>. How ever Chicago isn't that bad of a comparison at all. In fact it was pretty cool.


Shady Knight wrote:
Anyway, back to the actual topic, the whole "protection fee" from the mafia dudes is what bugs me. I can see that happen in the Underground and the Cremona maze, maybe the street of the red flower too, but where else would that happen? Karbo mentioned guards in the middle tier, either at the gate leading to the middle tier or patrols, which would imply that the police isn't as incompetent as people make it to be. The way I see it, it would be exceedingly difficult or not impossible for a crime lord to try and take over a district in the middle tier or higher.

I think that's the way it's supposed to be protrayed. The Nobility or the elect (From what i understand some districts in negav push a represenative democracy on their citizens to be effective leaders as long as they're mostly on terms with the magiocrats, so implies the wiki.) I could always imagine being corrupt. You had a large standing or money after the great destruction, so will your family and associates many generations I wouldn't say the police is totally incompetent. I'm just pretty sure there's a power struggle with ties from the beginning, or that they're corrupted by the gangs, or that they are people who just want the money to provide security. Now i can say that one of those two kinds of police or even agencies if you will can and will try to go after each other to gain credibility or just to be dicks and further increase crime. How ever the investigators (name subject to change) are probably the ones that have the most hands in the police or intelligence agencies because they're just that good at being spooks. How ever i can totally see them having people who are guilty come let them go because they're in the magiocrats interest. Doesn't mean though that other's will try to crack down, they just won't have much success facing a monster like that with out losing an arm or two to unveil the real corruption that has to do with them. With more self interest Mafia type syndicates i can see the police, Private military/security contractors or providers,intelligence agencies having do a better job. just a bit slower connecting all the dots since i'm imagining each criminal organization has it's own interest beside from any magiocrat or noble.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Tue May 06, 2014 8:54 pm

The relation of corporations and politics is a conversation that could severely throw out topic off the rails. That having been said, "Aristocracy" is a class of citizenry that is largely extinct nowdays in the way we imagine them. People dont hire dozens of servants like they do, or hold official titles like in the show Downton Abbey.The only place that really does that anymore is England and even that's still just for show, as there's no real power.

Power comes from money, and the ability to use it to influence politics. Therefore the richest 1% is more or less what counts for "Aristocracy" these days. Its a comparison that works though. Chicago is both pretty bad (don't kid yourself, its one of the most dangerous cities in the US), and pretty good.

Anyway, off to work.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Tue May 06, 2014 9:35 pm

Archmage_ Bael wrote:
he relation of corporations and politics is a conversation that could severely throw out topic off the rails. That having been said, "Aristocracy" is a class of citizenry that is largely extinct nowadays in the way we imagine them. People dont hire dozens of servants like they do, or hold official titles like in the show Downtown Abbey.The only place that really does that anymore is England and even that's still just for show, as there's no real power.

wasn't talking about aristocracy when it came to modern thing. I know my history with governments so way to be classy with that response that was 'only' intend for you.That still isn't the greatest comparison for modern day Aristocracy. That's just how capitalism flows in most western civilized countries. If you disagree then you can talk with me on skype. How ever like also said before. I liked the Chicago comparison as it's an amusing thought. was just not trying to relate stuff to the U.S. or other countries and let people come up with their own ideas on that and have people come up with their own originality on the thought.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Wed May 07, 2014 6:07 am

Oligarchy is definitely a term that describe the magiocrats very well yes Smile

Well i'm making some changes to the faction page : http://felarya.com/wiki/index.php?title=Negavian_factions  so it becomes easier to expand on each elements without making a huge wall of text.
To come back to the subject of the thread, how do you think the criminality page should be structured ?

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Wed May 07, 2014 9:07 am

I think it should be at the end of Negav's main page as a section that touches on criminality. It should begin with saying how it's natural that a city that attracts so many adventurers and explorers would also attract a lot of criminals, which Negav has unfortunately also become a haven for. It can enumerate some generic crimes, like ranging from thieves and pickpockets hiding among the busy streets, to con men taking advantage of gullible adventurers by selling them junk they advertise as amazing, to smugglers who bring all sorts of illegal merchandise like cursed magic items or what have you in the city, to even hired assassins. Then it can go into details how Negav, particularly the Underground and Cremona Maze, houses mafia-like organizations, led by hardened crime lords, who often give the police a lot of trouble, and the whole "protection" fee. Also, how some gangs will often go to war with one another, which can sometimes lead to massive bloodshed and a lot of innocent casualties.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Wed May 07, 2014 7:19 pm

I agree with Shady Knight. "Crime" should definitely be on the same page, maybe under "Security and order-keeping" and "Militias and personal forces". What you chose to say is up to you, but having and intro would be nice, then going off into some other topics. So maybe

"Crime"

Despite all the organizations that exist within the city, Negav attracts shady people from many worlds, wishing to con others, and exploit the seeming lack intense security (implying here that more priority will be taken with crimes that are closer to those who are rich or powerful). It could mention simple crimes like kidnapping, pickpocketing, home invasions, vandalism, etc "do exist as well".Then moving into more serious areas.

A section for things like Smuggling, "Negav Secret Entrances", The Black Market, Assassins, Tiny Trafficking as well. Can't forget that.

Maybe have a section for "Mafias" with brief description (including protection fees as well Razz), and maybe an example, possibly have one Mafia (which personally I'd like to be led by a hybrid race like a Dridder or Naga that was smuggled in as a kid or egg, raised, and took charge, to further represent the crime.

Here's a good skeleton for starters:
 

Thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu May 08, 2014 6:09 am

No, no specifics. There is no specific for anything else concerning Negav, why should this one be given special treatment? Having to constantly update it to add new highly specific crime is highly inefficient.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu May 08, 2014 12:19 pm

Really, Shady? I've seen you complain numerous times that articles in the wiki are too general, and now that you have a chance to have one that's specific, you're turning it down? I don't see the logic in that. Plus, keep in mind that the wiki is still just a guideline. Just because a crime isn't listed in the wiki doesn't mean it never occurs in Negav, and likewise, just because someone comes up with a new crime doesn't mean the wiki will have to be updated.
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