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 The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya

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tkh1304
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PostSubject: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:08 am

I ask a few active people on the chat box about this question, and their answer are:

1/ Felarya's magic causes the rust. If so, then Delurian-made steel must have something that react with the magic to cause the rust. I don't feel like this, because without going deeper into details, it is similar to "a wizard did it"
2/ The environment is the cause. If so, shouldn't all metal equipments regardless of origin suffer the same fate?
3/ The rust is caused by living organism. Sound scientific enough.
4/ People have some "smexy fun" using these equipment, and forget to wash them afterward, causing the rust. The answer is a joke itself, so don't think hard about it.

So far, I think the number three sounds the most scientific, so I make a theory to support it: Rust-causing bacteria.

There is a certain bacterium that only exists in Delurian world. It can be found gathered on metal's surface. Normally, it does not cause any trouble, and they do not eat metal: they just simply prefer a metallic environment on Delurian steel. The substance they create when living certainly can cause rust, but anti-rust steel can easily ward off this problem

However, when being carried to Felarya along with the metal equipment they live on, these bacteria have their activity boost tremendously when contacting with Felarya's air, creating an excessive level of rust-causing substance,quickly deteriorating even anti-rust metal.

Another thing is that the bacteria only prefers the metallic environment on Delurian-made metal. Unless adapting, they have a hard time to survive on other world's metal, so while they can be contagious between Delurian equipments, they are basically harmless to non-Delurian ones.

For Delurian, the only way to keep their metal stuffs not rusting in Felarya is preparing an air-tight dimensional gate and sterilize EVERY single equipment to kill these bacteria in their world before sending them out. Since it would be cost-ineffective to do such preparation, and there is a high risk of sterilized equipment get infected again by already-infected equipment in Felarya, so Delurian higher-up scraps this plan.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:57 am

They all seem plausible enough, except option 4 for VARIOUS reasons.

I like the thought of the microbes becoming enhanced from the environment, much like how common day viruses can either be as threatening as the common cold or as deadly as the bubonic plague, depending on location.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:07 am

In our World (here and now) Stainless Steel was invented 1913 by Harry Brearly. Okay - that´s that.
Now...
If a Civilization like these Delurians is able to produce Steel and to accept obviously openminded such Things like `interdimensional Trade´, I think they must have been able to overcome this Problem - for Example by not using this crappy Metal anymore.
Even in ancient Rome´s Days - there was more than only Iron common.
You can build working Revolvers mostly out of Brass - like the Colt Army 1851. And this doesn´t rust - how much You may even pray for it.
And hey - they do this Trade-Thingie? Why not buy some Steel, that desn´t rust from somebody else?
"You know - we are great in building and constructing Stuff - so You give us Your Steel - and we will build some for You - howzat? Hm? Hm?"

Works in Germany better than anywhere else - here is no Steel - so we buy it - and build Things like heck.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:08 am

Bandur Khan wrote:
In our World (here and now) Stainless Steel was invented 1913 by Harry Brearly.  Okay - that�s that.
Now...
If a Civilization like these Delurians is able to produce Steel and to accept obviously openminded such Things like `interdimensional Trade�, I think they must have been able to overcome this Problem - for Example by not using this crappy Metal anymore.
Even in ancient Rome�s Days - there was more than only Iron common.
You can build working Revolvers mostly out of Brass - like the Colt Army 1851. And this doesn�t rust - how much You may even pray for it.
And hey - they do this Trade-Thingie? Why not buy some Steel, that desn�t rust from somebody else?
"You know - we are great in building and constructing Stuff - so You give us Your Steel - and we will build some for You - howzat? Hm? Hm?"

Works in Germany better than anywhere else - here is no Steel - so we buy it - and build Things like heck.

The problem is that the weapon and equipment they bring to Felarya is for their own use, not for trading. Since Felarya is a hub of inter-dimensional trading, if you bring your weapons to trade, it would like you offer your military technology to your enemies and would-be enemies, who also engage trading in Felarya. Additionally, the Delurian still in the scouting step to determine whether Felarya is a good canditate for their colonization, so the investment would be somewhat limited.

Ok, they can still trade with metal stuffs from other worlds, and decide to research why the rust happens. Let say that they discover the bacteria that cause rust, then what will they do to prevent it?

1/ Follow the sterilizing method I mentioned above. Since it is impractical to sterilize everything just to have it get infected again, so let scrap it.

2/ Dimensionally import metal from other places to produce metal stuffs at their places. It would be costly just to import and produce things that is exclusively for Felarya, a world in which their colonization seems progress at a pace of turtle. Sure is that bigger investment means bigger success, but will the success big enough to cover the cost? Not mention that mass import otherworld's metal will alert Delurian's enemies about their next step in Felarya.

3/ Engage dimensional trading to get metal stuffs they need. Another costly method just to colonize a single world. And who is in the right mind to trade their top technology and weapons to a dimensionally-invasive empire like Delurah? If such thing ever happens, then they only trade outdated stuffs which the seller can easily manage to counter, just like on the Earth: unless USA knows how to effectively counter a stealth bomber that they make, they will never sell the said model to any country.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:16 am

Okay - how about the simplest Method of them all - GALVANIZE the Crap. If the electro-acidic Procedure doesn´t kill this Micro-Freaks - the Plating with Chrome or Nickel will.
That is why the first Revolvers were galvanized - so they are silverish-shiny - and they don´t rust anymore.
And this Trick is pretty old, too - the Chinese did it 2000 Years ago - with their Swords.

Fiddling around with some curiously rusting Stuff just for the Sake of Argument is... weird. You should think, these Guys would have come up with a simple Solution - and don´t tell me, that Galvanizing wouldn´t work on this Steel. If it doesn´t work, this is no Steel so it can´t rust anyway. And Galvanizing isn´t very expensive either - it is dangerous because of the Acid Baths, okay. But if the Wild-West-Guys could do this...
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:18 am

Bandur Khan wrote:
Okay - how about the simplest Method of them all - GALVANIZE the Crap. If the electro-acidic Procedure doesn�t kill this Micro-Freaks - the Plating with Chrome or Nickel will.
That is why the first Revolvers were galvanized - so they are silverish-shiny - and they don�t rust anymore.
And this Trick is pretty old, too - the Chinese did it 2000 Years ago - with their Swords.

Fiddling around with some curiously rusting Stuff just for the Sake of Argument is... weird. You should think, these Guys would have come up with a simple Solution - and don�t tell me, that Galvanizing wouldn�t work on this Steel. If it doesn�t work, this is no Steel  so it can�t rust anyway.  And Galvanizing isn�t very expensive either - it is dangerous because of the Acid Baths, okay. But if the Wild-West-Guys could do this...

Galvanization is ineffective if your galvanized stuff is exposed constantly to rust-causing environment, such as salt water. In Felarya case, it is the air. Additionally, galvanization weaken the strength of the steel, and the coating can attack the steel it protects.

For the temperature, on Earth, there are bacteria with hyperthemophile that can live in even boiling water. Since Delurah is not Earth, and its bacteria may adapt to even higher temperature, so galvanization may not help to kill all them. Ans since Felarya air hypes them up, so even with the coating, the can still cause rust inside out.

Since Derurah's stainless steel, a stronger rust-resistance than coating, could not work in Felarya, I doubt galvanization can help.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:16 am

Then I believe there must be some plot-relevant Reason for such Absurdity.
Otherwise it is not explainable how anyone would fight it tooth and nail.
And how anyone would trust his Existence on Equipment, which You can watch coeeoding.
And otherwise as just for the Sake of Argument there is ALWAYS a Solution - even for mysteriously rusting Steel.
As I said: If Your Steel sucks - or if You don´t have any - use other Steel.
I think this Civilization has other Goods they can trade Steel for.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:26 am

Galvanization is eaten fast around salt spray, true. But you can improve galvanization with an epoxy-coating, which just keeps out the friggin' air. If you keep out the air, that's all you gotta do to cut out the oxidation. Epoxy-coatings can endure up to 200 years, too, so long as they don't overheat. Still, the Delurans are nowhere near saltwater...

For what it's worth, bacteria could work... if the Delurians have not brought any microscopes. If it were something as simple as bacteria, they could explain it just fine. Maybe they've been too busy for microscopes?

I think we should just say the Delurans have been too busy to explain why they're failing so hard, they keep requesting for their supplies to be made of a different steel, but HQ simply isn't paying any attention to them at the moment.

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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:38 am

tkh1304 wrote:
2/ The environment is the cause. If so, shouldn't all metal equipments regardless of origin suffer the same fate?

No. Steel is a simple word with a huge arena of items. The authors do not explain what type of steel it is, so from a science standpoint it is difficult to infer. However, as an example to your notion; there are reasons for using different types of steel. Inconel and Monel are superior in certain environments. Why carbon steel is used in some applications and stainless steel in others. Stainless steel, as a term, is also misleading; there are many types of stainless steel. Austenitic stainless steel is especially susceptible to chloride stress corrosion cracking (link), for example.

Why the Delurans have not chosen a different steel? Only realistic answer is obviously a plot point.

tkh1304 wrote:
3/ The rust is caused by living organism. Sound scientific enough.

Plausible, but usually only in high stress environments like condensers and generators. Exophiles are the most likely cause in this arena, and regular ol' steel isn't gonna be attracting any exophiles. It is Felarya though, so something could be arranged. But again, it is a plot point - people won't just accept that shit is breaking and there is nothing they can do about it.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:44 am



Perfect! Smile

At least there are People wondering about this `Rust-Issue´, as I do.
And I thought: `Am I rally that stupid? Is there anything I haven´t realized yet?´

Of Course I am not the brightest one - but relying on rusty Crap is so stupid - I wouldn´t do this.

Oh yes - there are many Steels - and most of them have one Thing in Common - Iron. Therefore they rust - more or less.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:31 am

Maybe Deluran steel rusting isn't caused by the mentioned, but due to the structure of the steel itself and how it reacts to the environment.

It may have contained a special chemical that speeds up oxidation. The natural structure of the steel would be decaying once exposed to the said material. There could also be a special agent in the Felaryan atmosphere that could thereby alter the composition of the said steel. Or maybe Felarya naturally rusts steel, but in slower rates, but the Deluran steel is an exception.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:50 am

TK seems to be the only one aware that we're discussing two complete worlds here and basing his arguments as such. I hear Khan saying, "just use a different metal". We don't even know if Delura (or whatever it is the Delurans' planet is called) even has any other metal! Maybe they use all their other metal to synthesize this bacteria-attracting metal that they keep getting sent to Felarya with? Maybe the country in Delura from which the people scouting Felarya come have a limited access to metals outside of one more common type, thus they outfit their military with that metal because quantity over quality? Maybe this bacteria likes to inhabit all types of metal found on their planet, not just the stuff the military uses? There are a number of facters that need to be taken into account when thinking about an entire planet, which gives rise to endless possibilities, and I think that ruling anything out simply due to likeliness is failing to treat Delura as its own world.

Speaking of which, I see Khan and Stabs talking about galvanization. We can't assume that Delura has the necessary substances to facilitate this process, and even if it does, we have to take into account politics and trade and history and trends in Deluran society when deciding whether or not they discovered how to do it and whether it is a viable option to treat a number of the military's equipment for the purpose of exploring one alternate plane if existence with a dubious reputation, and then take into account ease of use, military process and command, etc. etc. before deciding whether or not they'd actually decide use it.

I don't feel like any of you, except possibly TKH, is thinking about Delura as it's own planet, with its own biology, mineralogy, psychology, history, society, ETC ETC ETC. Which I get is super difficult in practice, but you need to be at least aware of the many different factors when presenting your argument and keep in mind that there is a ton we don't know.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:24 pm

Great Idea.

Then ... why do these Guys not use Metal from here, when they are obviously here anyway? Felaryan Metals seems to work just fine - one of the few Things around here that seem to get eaten not too often. And I think Delurians can talk - so I think a little Technology Transfer is in Order. Well, if these Delurians are planned to be the 'felaryan Amish', then of Course the whole Discussion is in Vain.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:36 pm

You're not getting it. You're still thinking too one-dimensionally. You're thinking of potential answers to the problem without taking the time to consider possible reasons why that may not work, or why they would not choose to do that. Using Felaryan metals? Okay. Whith what are you going to mine them, refine them, and smith them? I highly doubt the higher ups in Delura's military command will make allowances for their scouting force (and that's what they are, simply scouts. The "Felaryan Amish [by which I assume you mean "Felaryan Pioneers"]" as you called them wouldn't start making actual settlements until the scouts say it's worth it) to bring such equipment and machinery to the danger world with them. "So why not send the metal back to Delura to be made into equipment to be sent back to Felarya?" one might ask. Well, a number of possible reasons. They might not want to allow foreign materials on their planet - hell, have you tried to go to another country in our world with the wrong things? Customs will confiscate that shit right quick, so I don't imagine a functioning government, like Delura probably has, would operate interdimensional travel much differently than airport security. And even if their foreign materials policies were lax, I think any metal mined from Felarya would probably be extensively researched by Deluran scientists so they can ascertain its properties before putting it to use in anything. And even then, who's to say that their first priority would be making new weaponry with the stuff? They might decide to make more effective kitchen sinks, first. And even if they did decide to make weaponry from that Felaryan metal, there's no saying that the first to be given these shiny new weapons would be the scouts exploring the backwoods dimensionally-anomalous deathtrap that is Felarya. They probably have way more important troops to give new toys to.

All that said...it's not necessarily impossible, either. The point is, you need to broaden your perspectives on the subject.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:50 pm

Okay - I will widen up my Horizon - by sending out my hopefully well-trained Scouts on a World You call a Death Trap - with Equipment that rusts, while I can watch this to happen.
Not too bright, I would say.
Therefore I would think it would be a nice Investment to equip my Scouts with Equipment that can guarantee their Success, whereever it may come from. Otherwise I, as a Scout, would have serious Troubles in believing I actually am a Scout. Perhaps I am more likely a Castaway, because I have done something awfully wrong and no one told me - they only semt me `through this weird Door´.
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:47 pm

Bandur Khan wrote:
Otherwise I, as a Scout, would have serious Troubles in believing I actually am a Scout. Perhaps I am more likely a Castaway, because I have done something awfully wrong and no one told me - they only semt me `through this weird Door´.

My other point was that we don't know that isn't the case. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The reason for Delurian's steel rusted so fast in Felarya   Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:58 pm

Well, this is true. But then they can go and pick any Tool they can get in Order to survive, right? Very Happy

For Example: I would only rely on a crappy Knife as long as I have to.
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