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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:04 pm

We could, Nyaha, but that's not the point of the thread: the OP asked us for the most common ranged weapon, not for whatever we can come up with.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:08 pm

Nyaha wrote:
I could see someone modifying a firearm to produce and fire bullets made from Felarya's abundant ambient magic energy. I'm sure there's some pseudo-scientific method for magitech that draws in and condenses raw magic into a bullet-like form out there somewhere. May not deal as much damage as a real-steel bullet, but you'd have less to worry about ammunition-wise at least, which would be a plus, right? Less risk, but less reward, too.

Can anyone else come up with anything inventive?

What is exactly what Shelley is doing. She doesnīt want any frigginī Reward - she just want to be left alone. And so something like a neatīn pimped Cogan `45 will do the Job.

And in this World the most common ranged Weapon would happen to be a Bow, I presume.

The Isolon Guys, Vishmitals and Hussar... Thingies seem to be pretty exclusive Clubs, right?
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:25 pm

If we're talking about common weapons that aren't as modernized as today...Then the ones you would get would logically make most sense to make and manufacture would be ones in the mid to late 19th or early 21st century (them being your most common) repeaters, semi automatics, or crude but durable sub/automatic/assault/ large machine guns that you could easily manufacture and use (In a house hold size home) while not being so advanced as to make them modular like most modern guns (Which to be honest aren't advanced right now, they're common place to have piccatiny rails to have more options to load out variety on most rifles and guns, it's mainstream.). So it really depends on who your looking for. The 19-20th century models being the most common. Your more modern smokeless guns being from uncommon to rare. And things like guass assault rifles to laser or plasma weaponry are exotics. Keep in mind most of you are having the mindset with karbos poor thought of "pre-industrial and fantasy" atmosphere. So ones i mentioned first are supposed to be more rare then obtaining magical swords and what not despite there being a gate and all colors of civilizations coming in and out of negav (A contradictory inconsistency in it's own right) So there's my best assessment on that.

Most likely though to the original question. I think bows and cross bows are the most optimal. You can make an arrow bow out of trees or metals fairly easily and the arrow heads can be customized to how ever you please for leathality. And like Khan said, They are very quiet and can impale and cripple targets more easily then a bullet. You get a high powered cross bow with some generosity to self protection and danger depending on what you would like on your arrow head such as poison,tazer or further impalement tips which Khan also said. You can do the same with bullets i can imagine, though that would be more practical with enhancements and rune magic. As composites from magical rocks, elements, or alloys S magic would be a huge benefactor to these ballistic weapons as it adds for overall utility in more strenuous or unsuspecting situations. Though you would imagine reaching the point or title of "Gun mage, Magi Ranger, or rune alchemist" Would be more uncommon. Again though, these people would most like have figured out to build or conjure a magic satchel or bag of holding of some sort via artifacts or advanced magic to make the most out of their skilled usefulness with range weapons.


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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:43 pm

Arcane Rifle Master - sounds not too bad, good Idea. here some stylish Old-School-Models which could be manufactured by all Guys who have Tools, Forgeries and a Talent for doing Things like this:

VOLCANIC Pistols (like a Henry Rifle - but an Underlever-repeating Pistol)
LÜTTICH Repeating Pistols
GASSER Revolvers
TRANTER Revolvers
LANCASTER four-barreled Pistols
SCHOFIELD Revolvers
BERGMANN Pistols
BORCHARDT Pistols
STARR Revolvers
LEMAT Revolvers
Double-barreled Coach Guns (also known as Whippets)

ENFIELD Rifles
MANTELL Rifles
FERGUSON Rifles
MAUSER Rifles
DREYSE Rifles
HENRY and WINCHESTER Rifles
SHARPS Carbines
SPENCER Carbines
and of Course old-fashioned Shotguns

SCHWARZLOSE MGs
VICKERS MGs
MAXIM MGs
Mitrailleuses (but they are pretty bulky)
GATLING MGs (also very heavy and big)
SPANDAU MGs
and the unique and infamous CHAUCHAT MG, which really was horrible, but only if produced in Factories - the handmade Prototype however was an excellent Piece of Art.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:17 am

I personally utterly loathe the concept of a pocket dimension to store things, because once you start, why stop? Supplies, guns, missile launchers, tanks, and why not? Give me a space battleship and I'll store that too. But then again, we have the canon example there with Subeta, so my complaint has no place.

Anyway, so. I didn't say there would be no guns, I said there would be common handguns, rifles and machine guns, as Bandur has pretty much specified up there. The thing is, I'm not too sure about local production. I think that for merchants, it would be fairly cheaper to get the guns from other worlds where they are mass-produced than buy them from the local artisans that have to make one gun at a time. Don't be confused, there can't be mass-production in Negav. Pre-industrial city, remember? No automated processing, no chain production, no dozens of workers making a gun each. The artisan and its apprentice would be the only ones making a gun at a time. Sure, that happens with swords, too, but aren't they simpler than a gun? Yeah, there can be very complex blades if you get into metal layering and all that, but guns can also get very complex. You don't compare the most complex blade with the least complex gun because that's a fallacy. If you want to compare, do most with most or least with least, please.

Also, before I forget, you guys seem to oversimplify predators. Please make sure to make a distinction between beasts and critters and giants and taurs. While a beast may learn the lesson of trying to get into the firing range of a prepared adventurer group and try avoid them when it seems they have those pesky instruments of pain, unless it's starving, a sentient predator wouldn't do that. A sentient pred would take on the weapon race, and the next time, it will appear with a shield to protect itself from your tiny bullets or a weapon by its own right. And remember, we're talking about preds ranging from 30 feet tall to a whole 100 feet or more. Even if they just get a stone from the ground, they can launch it from far enough that they are way out of your gun range, and a rock for a giant is quite the boulder for you. And better not forget they will be angry. If you hurt them enough they have to fall back, they will hunt you back when they recover, which isn't too long in Felarya. And I don't even have to mention how much attention attracts a gunshot noise in the first place, do I? When you carry a firearm in Felarya, it's more of a last resort than anything. Unless, of course, you're a specialized group that knows its way around, instead of a random adventurer party.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:28 am

Oh yes - Gunshots can be heared loud and wide - good! Cīmon, letīs get there, where this 28-Meters-Naga got her thin Butt kicked pretty well last Time we heared that over there! Great Idea, speaking of intelligent Beings... And they will get angry, if they are wounded? Well, even if so - why canīt I get angry, if some frigginī Monster wants to killīn grill me for no Reason? Itīs not as if I go out in the Woods with my Pals: "Hey, Guys! Letīs go and kill some fat Nagas and Giants out there!"
I tell You something: Of Course they will get angry - screw them. They want to KILL me - so if they are angry or not doesnīt matter to me, because in the worst Case I will end up dead. End of Story. They donīt like to get shot? Well, then they should leave me alone. Thereīs a simple Lesson in there. And this Lesson means: I can fight back the Way I want to protect my own Life - canīt I? Because itīs the only one I have.

And for the Arms Race... Yeah - let them have their Shield - makes them even easier to avoid, tossing a huge flat Thing through the Woods, making loud, hollow scratching Sounds every Time it is tossed through the Greens... And throwing Boulders can be funny, too. Of Course not ha-ha-funny, when some big Rocks begin to fall from the Skies - but seeing someone doesnīt mean You hit them automatically. Just for Example: Put Your Hamster into the Garden - and then throw some big Stones after it - of Course with some serious Distance, because You donīt want to get shot by a Hamster, remember? And then tell me, if You got it. And hitting a very small Guy, who actually KNOWS whatīs going to happen when You begin to pick up Stones is even harder.

You want no Problems in this Direction? Okay. Then stay in Negav. Everything You do can go wrong - perhaps even horribly wrong. And while weīre at it: The first Revolvers and Pistols (even some from the ones mentioned above) actually came from small private Forgeries, because there were no Factories at all in these old Days. There were even Matchlock-, Wheellock- and Flintlock-Revolvers - like the well-known Puckle Gun or the Mantell Flintlock Revolver. And if You look at the Pictures below You will see: No Factory can do this. You HAVE to do it as a Master of Metal Works. A factory-built Cartridge Revolver is a Piece of Cake compared to this - all they needed at the Time was... the Cartridge. And now in Felarya there are many Guys around, who know Cartridges quite well. And how they have to be built.

http://www.rockislandauction.com/photos/59/p_standard/CHQ1-G-F1-H.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/58d74f62ac26d54289b577f56022b7a4/tumblr_n3zwhukYle1rwjpnyo1_1280.png

http://image0-rubylane.s3.amazonaws.com/shops/carolines-collectible/0994.1L.jpg

http://www.andrewbottomley.com/ekmps/shops/andrewbottomley/images/x-x-x-sold-x-x-x-a-very-rare-french-small-size-4-barrelled-flintlock-pistol-circa-1780-1790.-good-condition.-ref-6820.-%5B5%5D-306-p.jpg

http://www.antiquestradegazette.com/media/1495292/Firearms09.jpg

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/554153929122919195/

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Drehling_GNM_W1984_ca_1580.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/miscellaneous/Revolver%201606.jpg

And indeed - they were as expensive as a good Sword at the Time. Sentient Predators and Arms Races or not - if a Human or something alike finally gets the Idea to build something like that - it will be done. Even if it sounds uneconomically or unlogic for others - or even if they donīt like it.

Itīs just as J.R. Oppenheimer once said: The Genie is out of the Bottle.

And all this is saying only one Thing: Under certain Circumstances You CAN have a Gun - it doesnīt mean You HAVE TO. It still is difficult, expensive and maybe exclusive or even kinda `unfairī - but it is far from being impossible. That is all there is to this. Very Happy

And as a last Resort: You always can throw a big, heavy and nasty backspiked Spear at Your huge Adversary. It is called a Harpoon.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:34 am

Actually, Ilceren, you have plenty of place to complain about the whole pocket dimension thing. Yes, Subeta's glove is essentially a bag of holding, but how many of those are there lying around? It's pretty heavily implied that her glove is one of a kind and that she didn't make it herself. Next, you have to think of how easy it would be to master dimensional shifting magic. It would be possible, but really, it wouldn't be easy. Who says there aren't potentially catastrophic consequences if you screw up just once, like tearing open a rift in space and time, which would then tear you to bits and anyone in the vicinity. As I see it, dimensional magic would be one of the least practiced schools of magic because of an absurdly high entry bar, less confident students being intimidated by how dangerous it can potentially be, and the course being stupidly long and grueling. Because of this, people making pocket dimensions and items holding pocket dimensions would be rarer than rare, with the latter being so expensive the price alone would give you vertigo.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:44 am

But rest assured - we still have the omnipresent Shrinking Magic, yes? Very Happy
That aside - many Adventurers from the Past until Today have no Problem carrying Weapons across some Jungle - in Fact even Sir Heny Morgan and his Men wandered through swampy, Mosquito-plagued Panama from the Caribbean Sea to the Pacific only to raid a rich spanish Town. So the Weight of a Gun should not be this a Problem. Especially with no Diseases around - tropic or not. They had to carry Equipment and Stuff, too. Then there were the portuguese and spanish Mercenaries of the 16th Century - they even had Steel Armour - in the Jungle. Pretty harcdore, these Guys...
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:52 am

Ilceren wrote:
personally utterly loathe the concept of a pocket dimension to store things, because once you start, why stop? Supplies, guns, missile launchers, tanks, and why not? Give me a space battleship and I'll store that too. But then again, we have the canon example there with Subeta, so my complaint has no place.

Because that kind of pocket dimensioning is stupid for creator or an author not to do within the reasons and settings of their character. What i'm reffering to you is pocket dimensioning to do one specific things. Carry ammo and arrows. If i wanted a tent i would have to make an artifact or learn the magic to create an additional space. Then it would go so on and so on. Amatuers would be doing as i said prior. Making one pocket dimension to do one specific thing (which should and would be a hard magic to master in the first place.) So the ones toting around BFGs or ships or massive tents are probably your masters on an already hard magic to learn. Again with in reason though to fit the character and not be a Mary sue.

Ilceren wrote:
Anyway, so. I didn't say there would be no guns, I said there would be common handguns, rifles and machine guns, as Bandur has pretty much specified up there. The thing is, I'm not too sure about local production. I think that for merchants, it would be fairly cheaper to get the guns from other worlds where they are mass-produced than buy them from the local artisans that have to make one gun at a time. Don't be confused, there can't be mass-production in Negav. Pre-industrial city, remember? No automated processing, no chain production, no dozens of workers making a gun each. The artisan and its apprentice would be the only ones making a gun at a time. Sure, that happens with swords, too, but aren't they simpler than a gun? Yeah, there can be very complex blades if you get into metal layering and all that, but guns can also get very complex. You don't compare the most complex blade with the least complex gun because that's a fallacy. If you want to compare, do most with most or least with least, please.

That would only make sense depending on the area. Today we can't make an accurate katana because we forgot the patterns and techniques to make great ones. But today we know how to make pretty complex guns en masse because of what bandur said "- if a Human or something alike finally gets the Idea to build something like that - it will be done." If people like more range in that sector of negav then you have about a team (Who the hell ever saids you need two people to build weapons?) that can pump quality weapons out. also since a complex gun and a complex sword work on different mechanics. You can't really do that either. The most complex sword would be in the hard sci-fi area as much as the most complex guns. Unreal in concept good in theory type of things. "High frequency blades" or high amplification vibration blades. You see where that's heading? Then lets not forget magic to add for later. comparing the best for the best with the worst for the worst for 2 very different weapons and it's uses doesn't really work because of the nature of the weapon itself.

As to your las paragraph. Any fighting in a jungle should be last resort. Especially since most of everything is bigger than you in mass.


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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:08 am

And so I think if You are not magic at all (which seems to be easy to spot for our almighty X-Ray-Vision-Preds) You still have a good Chance to get away undetected by sneaking around - because YOU are the small one. You can hide almost everywhere.
And carrying `primitiveī Guns out in the Wild isnīt this hard - Trappers, Outlaws and Scouts did this for the last 400 Years. With Bears, Wolves, Couguars and Indians around all Time. Or Tigers, Lions and rampaging Rhinos, if You prefer the eastern Fauna. You even can learn to make Your own Ammunition - even modern one, if You donīt want to make explosive one, that is of Course.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:43 am

First of all, Bandur, I'd appreciate if you could separate the wheat from the straw in your posts, because getting the point is becoming increasingly difficult in the roller-coaster of thoughts you write. Clear points are the heart of a discussion.

What noise attracts is not sapient beings, but critters and beasts. Sapient preds might come to check out, but what you would mostly get are all manner of hungry stuff that is waiting to hear something move in order to pursue it. My point there was that being stealthy is best, and there are a pretty good array of weapons that are stealthier and roughly as effective as firearms.

I don't know what point are you trying to make with all those weapons. I already stated that local production is possible exactly the way you said, a master weaponsmith and not mass production. But...


Bandur Khan wrote:
And now in Felarya there are many Guys around, who know Cartridges quite well. And how they have to be built.
Let me doubt this. I could maybe agree that there are a handful, but certainly not many. Remember that medieval thinking is the predominant among the natives. Unless the master weaponsmith is an immigrant from another world, not many would care to or know how to do cartridges. Unless, of course, you mean the military organizations.

Bandur Khan wrote:
if a Human or something alike finally gets the Idea to build something like that - it will be done. Even if it sounds uneconomically or unlogic for others - or even if they donīt like it.
Indeed, that will happen. The shame is most visionaries and geniuses of technology and science are often ridiculed and ignored for their disruptive ideas. Most don't live to see the day when their ideas are finally accepted. The point of this topic is determining what weapons and tech are commonly used by the population, not all the rare and exotic things they can come up with to hurt preds.


Shrinking magic is by convention something that can only be used by Fairies. Maybe some alchemists too, there's a canon shrinking poison but, as you can imagine, that only works on living creatures. So no, shrinking magic is far from omnipresent. If you really want to have it, it will be categorized as dimensional magic, pretty much the same as the bags of holding and with the same problems Shady just described.


The thing is, Blue, giving general people the ability to create their pocket dimensions is broken by itself. That it can be used by anyone means it's easy. And so, if anyone can create a dimensional pocket, then they would be able to create fireballs, thunderbolts and all kinds of easy magic by extension. And I think it's pretty obvious that a pocket dimension, even if you can only store and handful of arrows, is a magic that's well beyond a fireball. You can overlook someone fiddling with fire, but someone playing with the fabric of reality itself is much, much more dangerous, you know, and is much more likely to screw up if he doesn't know what he's doing. I would say (personal opinion) that to even be capable of making a small pocket dimension, you need an University-level mage, one that has studied the bases of reality and can manipulate magic on a pretty advanced level. If you want something magical to help with your gear, I would go with a weight reduction enchantment, which modifies the gravitational influence on the object, or the more advanced version known as levitation.

I mentioned the master and apprentice thing because that's how jobs where taught back then, prior to industrialization. Everyone had their craft, and to learn their craft, you would need to become his apprentice. There were bigger associations called guilds, but they didn't really handle education if I remember correctly. Of course, you can have a couple of artisans team up, but that wasn't too common. Not saying it can't be done in Negav, but I would handle it carefully.


I don't think those types of comparisons are valid here, Bandur. In the first place, any real world explorer relied in one or more animals to load their equipment on. And if not animals, then other people. In Felarya, the frequent critter encounters and the unusual terrain makes it quite impractical to use non-indigenous species for the task of loading. And if there's no animal to carry your things, then you'll have to carry them yourself. And in the second place, there are no giant predators in the real world, so again, not a valid example.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:15 am

I personally am not fond of shrinking magic being exclusive to fairies. I like to think other races make use of it for different utility, mostly carrying a lot of non-magical objects at once, because they're typically not good enough to shrink a living creature to a size as small as fairies can, which would make such a spell horribly impractical in an encounter.

Even with being able to shrink objects, there are still very clear limitations for an adventuring party.  The first one obviously needing a mage around.  If that mage dies for one reason or another, then the rest of the party will eventually have to deal with being over-encumbered, to say the least, or be stuck with items so small they're useless if the mage is powerful enough to make non-magical objects stay shrunk indefinitely.  There's also the issue of the mage needing to be around to return the objects to normal size, and when you're attacked, he probably has no time to do that.  And as an extension, let's say for the sake of argument that humans could shrink another person to tiny size.  While the idea of needing only one car to move an entire army sounds appealing at first, the simple fact that it also allows the enemy to destroy an entire army just by taking out one car suddenly makes it no-so appealing. They way I see, such a spell would probably mostly be used to shrink bags of loot so they don't burden the team on the way back.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:56 am

I believe a recap is in order.

First of all- as Ilceren said, guns make noise. And as Bandur said, you'll make noise if the alternative is dying right away. So let's stick to this maxim: Noise is a nonissue if the alternative is dying.

As Shady said, you don't always have the chance to shoot, and as he and Bandur agreed, the situation may lead you to miss- but as I pointed, that could happen with any weapon, and is thus irrelevant. You can miss or be ambushed with ANY weapon.

As Dragon pointed, you need ammo, and as Ilceren pointed, you can get a LOT of ammo for a gun. And as Shady and Blue agreed, arrows can be reused. And as Bandur pointed, ammo capacity has never been an unsurmountable obstacle. Ammo can be managed for any weapon.

Bandur and Blue have insisted, and Vix would've agreed, that making a good gun is not impossible, although production runs would most likely be small. Ilceren instead says that imported guns are more likely to be the norm. That's one disagreement right now.

Bandur and Blue also suggest that bows, rather than pre-interchangeable parts guns, would be the most likely guns.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Weapons/Tech   Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:49 am

Right. And I said Guys with Guns in a Jungle are no Problem at all - even if they have to carry their Stuff themselves - because the mentioned portuguese and spanish metal-plated Mercenaries had no Mules in the Amazonas, in Venezuela or elsewhere - these came first with the first Settlers. Okay - some of them perhaps had Horses. These were the Bosses - to ride on them and not to carry their Stuff in the first Place. And the Pirates of Sir Henry Morgan had no Animals or Slaves at all. And Iīll say another Thing - as they were there for the first Time ever - they had no Idea about the Terrain and some Difficulties. But they had Guns.

Maybe clever, maybe dumb, but so it was. Another Example: 1961 the Russians tested the mightiest Weapon ever created by Mankind - a nuclear Device, weighing 28 Tons, equipped with a small Parachute to give the 900 Km/h fast TU-95 some Time to escape the Shockwave. And it was close.
Thus was the AN602 `Tsar Bombaī. With the sheer Power of 57 Megatons it created seismic Waves, that ran three Times over the Globe - and the Mushroom Cloud was over 60 km high. This was the mightiest thermonuclear Explosion ever on Earth - and while the scientific World in the West shook their Heads about this Insanity the U.S.-Ambassador asked: "Why did You do that?"
And the russian Ambassador said: "Because we can."

So the final Conclusion is: Whatever Weapon someone can lay his Hands on - he will use it. Just because it is there - and he can do it. What the Outcome will be is another Thing of Course.
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