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Stabs
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PostSubject: Where do we go from here?   Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:39 pm

So, I was talking to Aether days ago, and there it came up that before making up more stuff, we could start making sense of what we already have. And that may take some work, so we may as well get started.

The first step is figuring out what to do, so... lessee, what subjects should get some reorganization (and re-examination) before we continue to expand upon them?

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:56 pm

Can you give an additive focus list first? I'm quiet clueless about what happens around here. : P
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:26 am

You can pretty much look at the topic list here in the General Discussion subforum to see what's on. And you would probably also be able to count with one or two hands the topics where a definite agreement was reached... XD

I'm pretty sure we could dig up the General Q&A thread and still get a lot of good info from there, even when it was written quite some time ago.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:40 am

Okay, let's see if I can have a go at this...


'Felarya started out as an fantasy world centred on the Vorarephilia fetish, which is characterised by the erotic desire to be consumed by, or sometimes to personally consume another person whole. Felarya’s type of Vore in particular mostly focusses on themes of Macrophillia, Microphilia and BDSM (partially Female Domination)

BDSM is a theme involving dominance and submission, normally played out through roleplay (either between real life couples, social gatherings online or within fantasy fiction) There’s always the Dom (dominant) and the Sub (the submissive)
In Felarya’s case the humans is generally of the Sub while large giants (mostly female) play the Dom role, (Femdoms) The size dynamics between humans and giantesses are a metaphor for the dynamics of power, the giantesses are bigger than humans because they are dominate in this fantasy world, which therefore symbolises the Femdom’s dominance of the sub in this particular fiction.
The act of consumption symbolises the Femdom taking full control of the sub, The Femdom fully enveloping the sub with her very presence. The Sub is surrounded by her in every direction, the world as he knows it is nothing but her, no escape.

Felarya as Karbo intended appears to be a carnivalesque style fiction with camp aesthetic style. carnivalesque is a literally mode that subverts and liberates the assumptions of the dominant style through humour and chaos. In Felarya’s case it does this with with gender politics and authoritarian systems, in the real world men are generally in control, using the social system in civilisation to their advantage. in Felarya it’s women, using no systems at all, just their very essence. Their nudity symbolises raw naturalistic feminine power as it defies all attempts made by the system to control it.

Camp is an aesthetic style and sensibility based on deliberate and self-acknowledged theatricality, in other words everything is over the top and never takes itself seriously. The idea of camp generally means not bogged down on realism and instead just enjoy art for art’s sake. That means everything on the surface level of the narrative is treated as fake and cheap.
Camp treat everything in quotation marks, Like “Predator” and “Adventurer”
The character of Crisis is introduced as a “Predatory Naga” living in an “Deadly world.” But these elements are camped up to serve the fetish and humour, what Crisis really is underneath the surface narrative is a animesque moe girl playing a Femdom role in a BDSM fantasy, those are the aspects of Crisis that matters, that’s where the effort and detail goes towards and influences the character's behaviour and narrative, not the surface level stylistic trappings. Crisis doesn’t act like a fantasy monster living in the most dangerous forest, and her life is far more lofty than one would realistically expect from a character who lives in the wilderness and has to fight for her mealticket. Therefore Crisis as a “Naga” is merely the theatrical role that Crisis the Femdom is playing in this story, in other words, Crisis’s act is similar to that of a drag queen.    
What that means is that we are supposed to realise it’s just a sexual fantasy, that even the fiction itself knows it isn’t real as if the happenings of Felarya was actually some kind of BDSM role-play brought to life before our eyes on a theatre stage, and if anything it goes out of it’s way to remind you of this fact. The labels “Predator” and “Adventurer” were merely how the Dom and Sub roles are dressed up to give the fiction some flavour, we are supposed to buy into the act on a low level, but not necessary take it at face value.

This is why complaints about Karbo’s work (and vore in general) miss the point, because taking it at face value is exactly what they do, complainers worry about the non-existent and hardly realistic lives of the sub role simply because they are “Humans” (which ignores the fact that everything in Felarya looks human.)
The problem is that these people ignore the fact that the primary audience of Felarya (and BDSM Femdom in general) are male submissives, or at least males who fancy the idea of roleplaying a submissive role, Therefore the Sub human role is in fact representative of the intended audience, they are the reader. This means that the humans metaphysical fate tends to be symbolically sealed the moment the reader choose to read Vorarephilia fiction. You don’t want them to get eaten? Then stop reading. They are you after all, and you can cease the fiction anytime you want. This is why the knee-jerk reaction from haters is flawed, their reactions assume a target being victimised where actually there is, subtext-wise, a willing participant playing a pretend role.

This is also why treating it as an actual grounded setting is so difficult, You're asking for the farce to be treated realistically.
Many attempts have been made to treat Felarya as a actual setting, one where the surface  aesthetic style is treated as substantial and relevant to the narrative, such as morality discussions with the predators (note how that word now lacks the quotation marks) The very lives of these fantasy creatures are now the focus in this kind of stories and their relationship with the humans.
Many tend to end up at least somewhat flawed in some way or another. The reason is that grounding Felarya requires a reworking of the carnivalesque and camp aesthetic styles and the BDSM fantasy more or less minimised if not removed completely. Many contributors simply fail to consider this, they want a different story direction but fail to make the necessary change to the narrative rules. Despite the intentions of the author to get away from the BDSM themes, the characters remain as BDSM roles by default due to the lack of new context in order for the readers to interpret the setting, the giants still appear to be happy naked gaint moe girls, with perky bosoms, flawless skin, perfectly shaved armpits and crotch, attractive hair, and no signs of flaws, wounds or nourishment, all this without without the tongue in cheek and risqué narrative to justify such a depiction of what the author claims to be “Man-eaters.”. And these authors want you to take it completely seriously.

And how does one treat hundred foot naked femdom dominatrixes seriously?
Most contributors don’t even bother answering that question, they think they can avoid the vore theme simply by avoiding the physical depiction of consumption, but this shows a lack of understanding of Felarya’s brand of Vorarephilia was about to start with, it wasn’t simply about creatures eating people, there is also the sexual imagery and power play in the size differences. Even if a writer tries to avoid the vore theme, those leftover themes still remain. A competent creator would either find a new way to make those leftovers work with the narrative he/she has in mind, or else just alter them to fit. But most creators don’t, they just drop their characters into Felarya, a complete replication of Karbo’s version of Felarya, under the flawed assumption that avoiding vore will somehow make a difference. But all this does is create a confused narrative that looks like erotic fiction, but lacks the self-awareness to realize it. It’s like a guy walking into a dominatrix’s dungeon and decided he wants to do a boxing session instead, just because he isn’t aware he is in a Femdom’s domain doesn’t change the fact that he is in the presence of an dominatrix in a skintight leather suit and a whip.

Their stories just end up taking themselves far too seriously and doesn’t explain why the threat of this fictional universe had to be giant naked ladies or why they feel the need to swallow their victims whole instead of just chewing them up like one would expect these creatures to do if they were real. These stories instead ask pointless questions that are presented as moral discussions that are directed at the Femdoms (The behavior of giant naked anime girls that generally doesn’t represent anything other than BDSM doesn’t make for very relevant morality tale, I can write a story with a moral about how it’s wrong to cram a load of thongs and G-strings into someone’s car exhausts while leaving bacon strips all over the engine, just because the moral is technically correct, doesn’t mean I won’t look ridiculous when I try making myself look profound and deep by preaching such a thing in a serious manner.)  They take this subject in such a straight faced and serious manner that they end up being unintentionally hilarious and ruins any attempt at drama the author might have attempted.

The problem is Karbo tries to have it both ways, he wants to keep the setting how it was originally intended while allowing content that is completely contrary to the nature of the source material with no explanation how these themes could possibly co-exist. You end up with a setting that in someways too silly to be taken seriously and too serious to be taken light heartily. Of course seriousness and humour can work hand in hand, but there has to be a balance and a sense of consistency, the fiction has to decide what aspects are to be taken seriously and what aspects are just for shits and giggles (or flat out fan-service) If you try to please everyone you will end up pleasing no-one. This is an issue that can’t be fixed by burying it under the whims of the contributors, piling on new races, cities, magic systems and weapons and so on would do nothing but dress up the already schizophrenic setting with even more trifles and window dressing. What Felarya really needs is a sense of purpose and direction that makes it easier for contributors to blend their ideas with the setting with minimal chaf. Felarya started off as a BDSM Vorarephilia setting, and in my opinion while it had it’s weaknesses, it at least had a purpose and a design philosophy, just because it’s purpose was niche and not to everyone’s tastes didn’t mean it didn’t work on it’s own terms.
But the more grounded Felarya that many creators seem to want, one that can be “an adventure fantasy world that is more than just vore.” has, at best a very vague purpose and inconsistent sensibility, there is no blending of the original themes with the new ones. Instead it just employs an laissez faire attitude and just lets everyone do their own thing.

Or, if failing the grand design purpose idea. Felarya perhaps should abandon the concept of an ‘canon’ and opt for a mythology structure, where contributions are not necessary set in the same world as Karbo’s but their own worlds that share many themes and certain rules, but are otherwise allowed to reinterpret Felarya’s depiction. Kinda like how the Gotham City in the 1960’s tv show ‘Batman‘ is different from the Gotham City in Tim Burton’s ‘Batman’ movies, which in turn is different from the Gotham City in Nolan’s ‘Dark Knight Trilogy.‘ Same mythology, Same set up but are very different places with different narratives that have their own ideas and purpose.'
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:57 am

DarkOne wrote:
Okay, let's see if I can have a go at this...

And to think, I didn't even have a hand in writing that ^.


My personal opinion and preference falls, as most know, to keeping separate canon and fanon. That would be basically what DO is talking about with the mythology bit. I don't feel Felarya's 'purpose' needs to be redesigned or refactored; leave the original design alone but do get rid of the addon crapola. Felarya is Karbo's world, and it should be the fun world he envisioned way back when it was just Crisis & Friends and not the hodgepodge it has become today.

I feel Karbo's Felarya should be brought back to what it once was, and the realism elements that were attempted to be added removed. Fanon can then build off the 'mythology' of what Felarya is, without actually copycatting or self-inserting into the universe unless the contributor is doing so on the purpose of joining into the fetish story and not bringing external elements into it.

Then we can have our fetish world and our realist worlds, or our deathworlds / steampunk / cyberpunk / whathaveyou, without concerning ourselves about elements that never made sense to the original premise anyway.


Last edited by aethernavale on Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : For the clarity...)
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:42 am

I think realism is important and should be included where we can. Though the problem I think is that most people try for earthly realism inclusions, and Felarya's realism will be a lot different, as long as we keep that in mind, 'realism' should be fine. (once again reiterating that 'realism' for felarya is different than 'realism' for earth)

So is the point of this to organize how progress has been made since we first started to better understand where we go from here?
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:53 am

Archmage_Bael wrote:
I think realism is important and should be included where we can. Though the problem I think is that most people try for earthly realism inclusions, and Felarya's realism will be a lot different, as long as we keep that in mind, 'realism' should be fine. (once again reiterating that 'realism' for felarya is different than 'realism' for earth)

This is not realism you're describing, but plausibility. How plausible is it for something to exist in a Felaryan setting, as defined by what the setting is. Multiple settings / branches / builds on top of the original mythos could allow for a 'realistic' setting, but realism is not plausibility. Just like species are not races.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:40 pm

I'm kind of with what Darkone and Aethernavale are saying. Separating the canon from the fanon makes things less confusing but it gives more variety of reader or creator preference of what type of felarya you are wanting to look at with out totally abolishing the core of the universe. But what questions me most is that both need a cleaning up to make a bit more sense. yes fanon you can play around but you just can't add anything and call it good, It needs to be more organized than it is, both of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:00 am

Darkone: This is a deep, thought provoking analysis here.
And you know what ?  Many of your points hit close to home. almost a bit too close for my comfort I'd say ^^;

yes there is no denying that there is schizophrenia in Felarya and what it is and what it's trying to be. And you are also right when you point at me trying to have it both way..
Because the thing is I like both of those aspects.
I like the light-hearted, fetishy, wacky premise of Felarya. Without them i feel the world would lose a lot of its identity and appeal and become too generic.
But on the other hand I really love the more realistic world-building aspect of it. it adds hugely to the identity of Felarya and without it, Felarya would lose a lot of its identity as well and becomes too shallow.

So yes it's a bit of a conundrum..  I try to look at things like the Discworld universe, where, if anything, things are even crazier and chaotic than in Felarya, but where Mr Pratchett managed to craft an universe that remains coherent in tone. And tone is a big part of the problem ( and solution ) I feel.

But I have to agree that the more it goes, the more this double identity disparity is growing and is becoming quite problematic. it makes its development feels like a jigsaw puzzle or a tightrope walker act at times.  There is some thinking to do on what exactly Felarya is and where we go from there. And perhaps some retcons could be in order as well.

So what do you think ?  Please don't hesitate to share your thoughts on the matter, this is an important thread ^^
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:23 am

Karbo, have you ever heard of the anime Jojo's Bizarre Adventure? A lot of wacky is in that anime, but it still manages to maintain a serious tone to the point of killing off main characters. I don't know of the humor is quite your style, but you may be able to pick something up from it.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:47 am

Well, Karbo, the first suggestion I would make is to actually put down concrete information. That is the biggest flaw with Felarya and the wiki in general, too many areas have important details that are conspicuously absent and are only added when someone prods you to or brings them into question. Take Negav, for example. You added the Jet Bikes and the Air Implosion Device because you like the idea that Anime-Junkie and jaette-troll brought up. The problem is that you added them both BEFORE you came and revealed that Negav is more a magitech kind of city and its raw technology level is largely in a pre-industrial state, with swords and bows being common, and firearms being a rare commodity. It's this kind of lack of attention that keeps leading me to say that the wiki isn't so much updated as it is patched. Other details such as once telling me that a while back that Felarya doesn't really have a cycle of seasons would be something worth detailing for everybody. We can't read your mind, Karbo, if there are quirks to the setting that we should know, then it should be written down.

Another thing you should do when updating the wiki is focus on one thing at a time and finish it before moving on to something else. Again, take Negav for example. A long while back, there has been threads asking questions about the development of the city, mostly its tech level and how common were firearms and so on. So you went and updated it in the wiki... only to stop halfway through, leaving it incomplete. Then you went and decided to give a bio to some more Magiocrats, only to, again, leave them incomplete halfway through. I understand being distracted sucks, I get distracted all the time when I try to write my chapters and barely make progress each day, but leaving articles in such an incomplete state for so long is just not good for anybody. By the time you get back to them, you'll have long forgotten what information you wanted to put down, leaving it up to us again to come up with out own interpretations of the city or character, which will most likely clash and cause yet more confusion.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:01 am

In my personal opinion, you should separate them out. Canon and fanon should be distinct and apart; separate entities.

That is not to say these two entites cannot interact with one another - even though Admiral Thrawn was not a canon Star Wars character, he was an accepted Star Wars character. He's a part of the Expanded Universe: and that's what I feel Felarya should have. Note: past tense. I am discussing the previous / initial setup as what occurred with West End Games, and the Thrawn saga. They created the groundwork for what the system could be since mostly it was a void before.

Now we have Star Wars Legends where they're trying to turn the Expanded Universe into a linear, non-contradictory system that complements the movies since they're officially licensed material; I don't recommend the Star Wars Legends approach for Felarya, given that you don't specifically want to regulate / choose material Karbo ( and really, such a project would be better with a team vice one person ). I think you should setup Felarya to be as you originally purposed it, and then let others build on that material to create their own realms for storytelling. How much or how little of the giantess moe world is included is then up to each sect of fanon.


You remember all the gatekeeping in the past? It's a lot harder to gatekeep what is accepted into a community when there is a canon / fanon line. If you don't like aspects of fanon, you just don't read it. Sure, that's not to say people can't still argue for the 'clarity of material' in fanon, but in a canon / fanon system all they're doing is proselytizing that they dislike this particular fanon. By incorporating all these different aspects into canon though, you elevate people up to a position that they feel they have some 'stake' in what makes the community and can thus decide what is 'acceptable' material.

By allowing them to be separate, you can have people add stories that are just straight up fetish building off of the Felarya that is, or people worldbuilding a Felarya that could be. How is this different from now?


As things stand right now Felarya is basically a territorial plot map. People have carved out their own little sections for a story to take place in, and when those people leave Felarya suddenly the areas they created are abandoned. Some of this I feel is due to bad blood, other bits are due to the way crediting is applied to ideas; the notion that people require permission to use these territories in their own stories.

So, years down the line in present times, we wind up with a Felarya that no longer supports new content creators as they come in and try to make sense of items that were added in the past. Because there was no separation between canon and fanon, new content creators are attempting to add to the old content to make sense of it, without completely removing it.

However, a lot of it simply cannot be added to; it needs a complete overhaul. That delete button would sure be useful. That would not have been necessary with separate systems; old fanons are simply discarded if people are no longer interested in them. You might like an idea or two and adopt it into your own story, but usually the whole premise is just left to stand upon its own merits. It will be remembered or not based on what it is. If someone writes another story occupying the same space and time as Thrawn's fleet in the Star Wars universe, this isn't an issue - Thrawn isn't canon*. *Obviously that's different with Legends now.

These fanons do not affect the system, allowing new ideas to be applied to the system easily and so the world can constantly change while still belonging to itself. With the current system, content creation is limited and old content is simply ignored, where it collects dust on the proverbial shelf. The old content is still there though, still providing impetus to new ideas.



If you wanted, Felarya already has a separation system. Perhaps the proposed canon / fanon separation is too drastic for you. I would note that it'll be difficult to implement currently, there is nowhere for people to collaborate on fanon groups without disturbing actual Felarya discussions ( this was my intention to create such areas with 'clubs' on the new website, but alas I am stuck waiting on frameworks to be completed and IPS totally dropped the ball with the v4 release ). But in order to use it a massive overhaul of just what it is would be required.

I'm speaking, of course, of Lydus. If you would prefer to keep the 'territorial' claim system, then you could do that by allowing people to have their own 'shadow' / copy / mirror realms of Felarya within Lydus. Separate dimensions where things are similar to Felarya, but are not Felarya. Then, if someone wants to have a brush with the actual Felarya for a story, they can totally do that via dimensional rifts without largely affecting what the canonical Felarya is.

Note, I'm not saying that noone can create stories in Felarya. If you wanted to create a fetish story of Felarya for its own sake, you could totally use Felarya for that. But if you want to be disruptive, create your own new city-states, create trade systems or new military schemas / introduce articles of realism / steampunk / cyberpunk / advanced society, it really shouldn't be taking place in Felarya. Felarya is not about those things, Felarya is about medieval technology on a world where giantess moe eats you. And to be clear, that's fine.

By allowing the fields of separation, you can have your original intent of the Felaryan world, while also allowing people to build onto the idea and create entirely new and wonderful things* from it. *Disclaimer: Not all things will be new, wonderful, or even desirable. Mind bleach may be required.

The problem with Lydus is that, it too, is a giant hodgepodge. It makes no sense. Vix / hat / Blue / Myself / Ilc / Stabs have all had intense discussions about Lydus, how the afterlife works, how the system is laid out... and yeah. We're all sitting on our hands because the system just doesn't make sense. I'll not derail the thread by getting into my own thoughts on this, I just wanted to point out that, if you wanted to, with some adjustments you could keep the status quo and still provide a system that allows reuse of material / locations / etc in Felarya without being as distinct as canon / fanon.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:27 am

I've been around for 8 years by now (thats almost a third of my lifetime) and have seen different approaches on the development on this setting coming and going. There were the early phases where you could add anything as long as it seemed fun and found karbo's liking, or so it seemed.

After a while more and more content had been added and the development focused more around filling the white spots on both map and lore, with lesser things to be added and a ton of gatekeeping to the point where from my view, felarya pretty much stagnated unless the person inventing something new / fleshing out something was one of a very small list of names. During that era, new people were not respected at all and quickly driven away by the lack of possibility to participate, ESPECIALLY on the forums.

There have also been many fights within the community and people frustrated with it, causing even less people to actually contribute. However, those that did, often had very different views on felarya, and people still do today.

By now, I feel like Felarya has become more accepting of new ideas again, i see requests to add element X or Y to be added to the wiki made by karbo a lot more often, and with pleasure as it allows for the (by todays standard) small community to stick to the development cycle.

THe problem however, is still present: People have different views on Felarya.

I recently had an argument with a moderator on the Deviantart gallery, who at first refused to accept a picture in my gallery, because it had a light bulb in it, and Felarya would not have electricity. The argument then led to the question whether there is electricity in Negav, seeing how there are undoubtedly electric devices both featured in Karbos art and the lore, especially with outworlders such as Delurans and there being no reason for power to not being spread to large places such as Felarya.

I have recently seen a Felarya picture that featured two OCs of a person in a huge devastated city with large buildings and modern skyscrapers, streets and modern weaponry. That place was still supposed to be in Felarya on a faraway continent. Seeing we have officially Miratans who are a high tech species with machines and mechs and other things, this City in a jungle world isnt as out of place as it might have seemed.

I have recently had a discussion whether Helicopters should even exist in Felarya, or if Dimensional portals can connect to each other within the same realm.


You dont even have to start with things like Lydus or afterlife and other "advanced" mechanics, its the very basics of the setting (Fantasy, Sci-fi, etc.) that is already not quite clear. The fact Karbo shows felarya with campers, motorbike riders using GPS (despite thefact felarya has no space and thus no means to feature sattelites for GPS coordinates and isnt fully catalogized either with lots of white spots) , along with Treasure hunters featuring both Swords, Knifes or Assault Rifles and Muskets doesnt help either. In the Wiki weapon section you can literally see laser rifles next to blowdarts, and even though one could argue all the offworlders are bringing their stuff to Felarya, one might as well ask why there isnt a really huge trade going on with other worlds, especially the more advanced ones.




What the setting needs first and foremost is a rough Guideline about what the setting should feature at its very core. Not examples like "there are Laser rifles but no nuclear devices" as that makes little sense, but roughly what SPIRIT the world should have.


When I designed an open world RPG for my pen  & Paper group, I told them I would do a setting much like the elder scrolls series (Skyrim, Oblivion, Morrowind) and without having to add much more, they immediately were able to tell what to expect or what felt out of place. I told them a rough idea about the political state, and infrastructure. People should know, whether the laws of physics applied, how easily one could travel distances, as well as how trading and communications work and how the divine played into all that. it was an RPG about nothern mythology, so gods, titans and a total of 7 different worlds all with their own planes and civilisations were present.
Now doing the same for Felarya is harder, especially since you cant just say its a Skyrim theme with Jurassic park and the Catachan deathworld (Warhammer 40K setting) mixed into it, plus a huge ton of naked girls who are all eager to show off and swallow you whole. Felarya needs a great deal of explanation, which IS a huge project, especially at this point where there is so vastly different content in such a high amount.



I see the most difficuilt problem for all this actually not on Felarya itself, but in the possibility for it to connect to any world at any given time. THe outside influence is what makes Felarya this inconsistent, since, if something feels out of place, you can just have gotten it somewhere. That IS the very reason why we have motor bikers with GPS, Space marines or campers suddenly getting into the troubles karbo and other artists and writers put them through.

Taking this dimensional interconnectivity away from Felarya would hurt the setting too much though. So going along with the people here, recommending to work out the line between Canon and Fanon, I would suggest to try a different approach, where you differ between Innate and offworldly. What can you EXPECT to find in Felarya, what is COMMON, or might be an uncommon sight, but still reasonable, and what might small expections be, instances where maybe one thing someday got pulled into this world?


SImple questions such as: What can be found on Negavian markets? Is there trade within Felarya over long distances, if yes, how are the merchants protected? Which worlds connect to Felarya in a regularity that makes it actually influence Felarya more than other worlds?


felarya is a great world, well worth to stick with it and maybe inspiring enough to make it part of ones life (like i did), it has huge potential for world building, but what it actually lacks is that you just NEED those rough guidelines to be clear for people wishing to add to it.

I think creating a small canon and splitting everything else into a Fanon section, like Lukasfilms did it with the star wars franchise, is the wrong way to go about this. People contributing to Felarya do have the desire to make their work and effort worthwhile, and splitting the world content into Canon, accepted Fanon and non accepted Fanon even clearer than it already is, including the addition of hurdles along the way, wont help in motivating them. It's a point where Karbo kind of has to decide whether he wants a clear setting where he and a few sharing his view on felarya can add content, or whether its a community world.

Felarya is a construct that has grown large and detailed in a way that a single person can impossibly oversee its nuances and details. its a world and ecosystem as complex as earth, and even our home planet is impossible to put into a description that can exactly tell apart reality (canon) from fiction (Lore, Legends, Art, Sciencific theories and thesis that might be subject to change) and even that view changes over time (Earth is flat-> Earth is round).

But still it is possible to roughly define what earth is, what technological level humanity is at this point as the dominant species and what can be found and expected in general. I often feel like Felarya still lacks that, and this needs to be specified more clearly.




tl;dr:
Felarya needs more precise guidelines, an agenda of expectations so to speak, where people might be clear about what can be found on Felarya innately, and what could only possibly be brought from other worlds in very rare instances, as the world at this point is WAAY too big (pun intended) to be grasped by anyone trying to portray it and make a clear line between canon or not.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:20 pm

Karbo wrote:
I try to look at things like the Discworld universe, where, if anything, things are even crazier and chaotic than in Felarya, but where Mr Pratchett managed to craft an universe that remains coherent in tone. And tone is a big part of the problem ( and solution ) I feel.

Well in the case of Terry Pratchett, his stories normally have some kind of social subtext grounding the stories, no matter how outlandish they become the subject matter is almost always real enougth to keep that coherancy. Also his works have satirical elements in them, satire isn't just silly for the sake of it, it's provides critism of something in the real world thing through exaggeration, satire humour might be outlandish but its subject is quite serious.



Felarya generally doesn't have that. The realistic world building of Felarya has always been in reaction to the fetish premise and try to make it realistic simply for the sake of making it realistic, and not making it realistic because there's an idea behind it that requires that realism. The humour likewise is generally for the sake of humour. There's not many moments in Felarya where the lighter moments and the serious moments work together towards a higher purpose.

Not that there's anything wrong with humour simply for the sake of humour or realism for the sake of realism by their own, (comedies have to be funny, historical dramas have to be accurate) but I don't think it really works for anything that wants to be a multi-genre narrative. Multi-genre settings often tend to need quite alot of substance in order to keep everything together, and something as niche as a fetish is probably not going to cover it.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:33 pm

That's... not what I meant to talk about, guys. But since it went in this direction, might as well continue with the subject, it wouldn't have come up if the situation wasn't ripe for it. Maybe before continuing to modify any other aspects, it's best if we decide what to do...

On one hand, the canon... I guess I liked building it more than I thought. I'd find it discouraging, and unpleasant, to see it out of my reach, in order to separate fanon from canon. I'd wonder if preventing gatekeeping has become such a major concern that we're ready to redo the structure of the setting for the sake of preventing it. I know, however, that you'd rather it never happen again. I don't know how many times we've had this problem over the decade... or if this might happen again over the next decade, if we decide to keep at it.

A retcon, discarding stuff by order of importance, might make it a lot easier for Karbo to get the world making sense just the way he wants it. There's aplenty, maybe it's best to trim some fat.

Once upon a time, I would've protested against Felarya getting a sense, a purpose in its design philosophy, but over time I've realized we had one all along. There are things you explicitly never wanted in Felarya, Karbo- people beating up giant nagas with their bare hands, for one, and all-encompassing empires, resurrection for another. Nobody would resent you for tightening the design a bit more. I can imagine, however, that making that kind of call might not seem worthwhile.

The dual identity never seemed like one to me. But I gotta admit that things like stablishing the diet of nagas consisted of things other than vore victims may have taken away from the fetish world aspects. Was it ever necessary to compromise on the fetish? No. Was it worth it? I'd say yes, definitely.

As Amaroq pointed out, maybe we can have a list of expectations for Felarya instead of a list of specific things that exist, like what we have now all over the wiki. It would have some advantages (it'd encourage creating fanons, discourage hard comparison to the contents of the list, minimize the impact of inconsistencies) and disadvantages (it'd be harder to build on the canon, reduce the amount of detail on some articles). Depends on what you're trying to do.

I'd suggest getting a sense of what you want to do. Does the jigsaw puzzle bother you? If so, what aspect would you like to fortify, and what aspects can you let go of? I'm trying to keep an open mind here. So far, nothing's been decided, so we can't decide what would happen if we did anything.

Feel free to toss around ideas, Karbo. No commitment expected 'till you say so.


P.S.: Dio, you've got a couple of things wrong about Felarya. BDSM was avoided, and you missed the yuri.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:16 pm

Karbo wrote:
Because the thing is I like both of those aspects.
I like the light-hearted, fetishy, wacky premise of Felarya. Without them i feel the world would lose a lot of its identity and appeal and become too generic.

This I agree with heavily! I try to balance the horror and suspense with light heartedness and comedy. I'd hate to see either dissapear froom Felarya entirely. If it did? Bah! I'd quit. I love Crisis but if she was just a generic T-rex with boobs wjhy bother? I love that goofy air headed half innocent way she eats people. XD Maybe it's not believable but I honestly feel Felarya, like Doctor Who, writes it's own rules for what's believable. I believe the world building and humor can go hand-in-hand without having to draw a line in the sand.

Karbo wrote:
I try to look at things like the Discworld universe, where, if anything, things are even crazier and chaotic than in Felarya, but where Mr Pratchett managed to craft an universe that remains coherent in tone.

Ahh Discworld! Like a cartoon wonderland but with all the horrors of a dark fantasy world. XD Where innocent looking things can easily kill you. Satire comedy at it's best. As much as I love the Discworld though it's got a special secret that Felarya would have hard to replicating cause it's a shared universe. In each book, especially early one, Terry gives us humor,story and most importantly adds a little more detail and depth to his world. Each novel is like a building block to a huge monolith that stands proud and tall showing the world that rides on the back of the Great A'tun. ^_^

Karbo wrote:
But I have to agree that the more it goes, the more this double identity disparity is growing and is becoming quite problematic. it makes its development feels like a jigsaw puzzle or a tightrope walker act at times. There is some thinking to do on what exactly Felarya is and where we go from there. And perhaps some retcons could be in order as well.

It is a paradox but is it really a treat to stability or just simply a perceived problem with no true impact on the universe? Shared universes are tricky to make because everyone see's something different. The reason why the Star Wars universe still keeps on trucking, even after moronic decisions to kill off characters left and right, is because George Lucas makes all final decissions on what goes into the universe cannon and affects it's timelines....Well int he novels anyway. And you've done this with the wiki being the "law" of the universe and only you or French Snack being able to add articles....but I think that's actually just holding the universe's development back. Yes it keeps it uncluttered but it also makes updates sooo slow anymore and leaves a whole bunch of WIPs and unfinished articles cause you two are awesome writers, but let's face it you're human! Humans with busy DA's and RL stuff I assume as well. ^^; Now as for Retcons? They can be useful but beware using them too often. Easy to get lost in "Universe A" and "Universe B" and be worse than DC and Marvel with all their various continuities @_@ I had to make one timeline int he Dentverse because it spun off so many times I was retconning retcons I think. I dunno it was just a mess. And it was only a video game series. With a big universe like Felarya being in manga,internet fic, pic and even slowly getting into the video game field you have a huge potential for disaster me thinks.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:51 pm

I'd like to suggest that this also ties into a broader problem about roles and responsibilities and what the user experience should be as it relates to contributions.

Hypothetically, you have a new person who just stumbled across Felarya for the first time and is inspired to contribute to it. What is their expected behavior map?

As it stands, I'd say it's something like:
1) Read a bunch of credible stories from some key authors
2) Read through the wiki in its entirety
3) Come up with an idea and shill that idea left and right until you can convince the general public it's good enough for canon
4) Write stories about the idea
5) See if it gets vetoed

Is that about right? If so, that's quite the messy process, and having to read through a wiki cover to cover is a hassle.

A bit of formality would go a long way here, but that'd require some work to get off the ground. But there could always be some kind of hybrid approach. Say some of the experts come up with an underdeveloped idea and put out a bounty/contest for a story regarding it. Then when the entries are done, the best elements are collected from all the stories to make the canon for the idea. It's just one idea, but I think it'd be a cool way to collect contributions and allow people to express their creativity without worry or tension about the details.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:15 am

That last thing you say has been done in the past, more or less, Seneca. Back when the Heaven realms were being developed, or the city of Kelerm, Karbo posted a topic asking for ideas and contributions on those topics. Not so much in the way of writing stories, but writing down the idea of the area itself. So it's not about if it happens or not, but how often it takes place.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:26 am

Neat, I think that kind of top-down solicitation helps fresh blood get their feet wet. But obviously a big problem with that approach is it requires a lot of administrative effort, and even then there may be some contention over the final result.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:31 pm

DarkOne wrote:

Or, if failing the grand design purpose idea. Felarya perhaps should abandon the concept of an ‘canon’ and opt for a mythology structure, where contributions are not necessary set in the same world as Karbo’s but their own worlds that share many themes and certain rules, but are otherwise allowed to reinterpret Felarya’s depiction.

I tried doing this, but too many people QQ or just ignored my stuff when it is not agreeing with their cannon. So im left drawing a picture once in a blue moon. Hai

Also I don't understand why people keep saying Felarya is "more" then a fetish world. There is nothing wrong with a fetish world and it can still be successful with the fan service.

There's so many mangas and animes out there that are based on fetish worlds and fan service. They end up being successful for what they are.

Adding new entries to the wiki will not improve Felarya's plot, I think its not salvageable because of all the people that left. If the plot was to improve major changes would have to take place. I will stop there so I don't "offend anyone" if I said what those changes are.

However we can still enjoy Felarya for what it is, the noms and there is nothing wrong with that.

Trying to make it into something it is not is like comparing apples to oranges.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:51 pm

Claire wrote:
I tried doing this, but too many people QQ or just ignored my stuff when it is not agreeing with their cannon. So im left drawing a picture once in a blue moon. Hai

Also I don't understand why people keep saying Felarya is "more" then a fetish world. There is nothing wrong with a fetish world and it can still be successful with the fan service.

There's so many mangas and animes out there that are based on fetish worlds and fan service. They end up being successful for what they are.

And we can't get enough of them. But we also can't get enough of the other stuff, hence the conundrum.


Claire wrote:
Adding new entries to the wiki will not improve Felarya's plot, I think its not salvageable because of all the people that left. If the plot was to improve major changes would have to take place. I will stop there so I don't "offend anyone" if I said what those changes are.

However we can still enjoy Felarya for what it is, the noms and there is nothing wrong with that.

Trying to make it into something it is not is like comparing apples to oranges.

Plot? What plot? Laughing Have a little faith, Claire. We don't get offended that easily, and that's what this thread is turned into: questioning the status quo. If you can't do it here, then where?

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:10 pm

Stabs wrote:
And we can't get enough of them. But we also can't get enough of the other stuff, hence the conundrum.

Apples and Oranges

Stabs wrote:

Plot? What plot?  Laughing  Have a little faith, Claire. We don't get offended that easily, and that's what this thread is turned into: questioning the status quo. If you can't do it here, then where?

I don't want to do it here, I just wanted to say my piece and don't want to overstay on the forums because of problems in the past.

If Karbo asked me personally, or asked around in regards to Felarya's plot then I would tell him in privet because it is his world and he can change it to w/e he wants.

Otherwise I don't really see the point in saying what those changes are, it wont do any good and just cause controversy.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:47 pm

Stabs wrote:
There are things you explicitly never wanted in Felarya, Karbo- people beating up giant nagas with their bare hands, for one,


Who the hell does this? Kratos? maybe Chuck Norris or Gordon freeman?

Well it seems Jedi already said what I cam here to say. Sure I love vore, but if you take away the fun and comedy of it, It loses a ton of identity! Heck, I still love Karbo's little Felarya strips with Crisis and Anna. There is not much vore there, but It's really funny! Like Crisis trying to moonwalk!

I think a certain balance must be reached between fetishes and fun and world-building.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:13 pm

Thank you all for your detailed imput Smile

To be honest, the canon / fanon route looks rather intimidating to me. This would create a huge variety of problems and headaches.. and I'm not really convinced it's required at this point ^^;

But this idea of let's say a page describing in detail what Felarya is, with its fundamental aspects, a recap of its foundations to paint a more coherent and clearer picture.... yes I think it's a very good idea and something I'm willing to work on.
Some trimming could be useful as well. As for Retcons.. don't worry jedi it's something I take very seriously. I'm not at all the kind of person who would just change things left and right on a whim ^^;   If there are indeed retcons to be made, they are going to be discussed thoroughly first ^^
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we go from here?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:29 pm

Karbo wrote:
this idea of let's say a page describing in detail what Felarya is, with its fundamental aspects, a recap of its foundations to paint a more coherent and clearer picture.... yes I think it's a very good idea and something I'm willing to work on.
That's not the problem, the problem is that pages are missing details. I re-iterate my example with Negav, there has been threads to develop it because too much information was missing to help us get a much clearer idea, and some development was done on the wiki, but it hasn't been touched upon in months. How does the average person who look at the wiki know what Negav's history is? Or its education? Or its healthcare? They just can't, because that information isn't yet listed. Making a journal of all the development that happened so far won't help people understand more about what an area like Negav is, what its technology level or culture is, because that information is not present.
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