The Square-Cube Law

Lockheed X-17 wrote:

In this thread we must discuss specific matters around Felarya. Being too bored driven me to create a thread that contains many pieces of data.

The question are, how does the square-cube law in Felarya work? Does Felarya have a weak gravitational field? How does the atmosphere of Felarya comes to play with the physics? Is the magic in Felarya breaking the known laws of physics? or does the physics that apply in Felarya is, broadly defined as, mostly undiscovered?


For example, does the gravity well in Felarya extends into space, or does it just stay trapped inside the Lydus? Is the atmosphere in Felarya large enough to create megaflora and megafauna (Perhaps)



Please, avoid double-posting. Use the Edit button on the top right of your posts.

I almost feel like Felarya is more of an extension of the Venmys-Peaug (spelling, please, who came up with that name?) Library in Negav. Like, as if going in one direction or the other for long enough leads to some truly insane things, and if you want to break physics even further, maybe they lead into each other? Like if you go deep enough into the library you might eventually come out somewhere in the uncharted regions.

But basically, if you go far enough into felarya, since its theoretically likely to have as much landmass to cover Jupiter's surface area, that you could eventually find that the average tree is the size of the great tree, and that abyssal tonorions are actually like insects, or you develop a Hunter X Hunter complex, where the whole known world is but a tiny fragment in an otherwise massive planet.

On that note, I swear they saw Felarya and we're like "that's a neat concept!" said everybody since Shingeki no Kyojin.

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On another note, if you want to really entertain yourself, go look up Oldman40k2003 and read his posts, you'll learn so many things about felarya. There's been a post he made about the square cube law and heat retention of creatures, but I couldn't find it. Also another good person's posts to read is Anime-Junkie. This is for overall felarya knowledge, and I think their helpfulness has since been forgotten. Oh well.

Though let me know if you really want an in depth discussion of the square cube law again.

I would say for the most part you just wont find a scientifically pleasing answer to your question yet as nobody here is qualified to make any really good theories about it that go further than mere ideas and thesis. Things usually are just handwaved for the sake of being there, but if you really need an explanation, i am certain it has to do with the atmosphere as well. remember, in a prehistoric time, there were huge insects where dragonflies were really enormous in size, easily overshadowing even todays birds of prey. However, when the atmosphere changed its contents during some ages such as the ice age, they, just as all other too large beings (Dinosaurs) perished and only left todays insects behind.

Felarya itself is super giant, so all physics should adapt to that size and work on a normal level for its average. And we have to face, humans are about the size of small mice in that concept, so we cant assume the same course of nature and laws going on there. Also remember, what we do know about science is all just a theory, that can, has and will be changed over time. You cant even say for certain a thing like that square cube law works the way we today think it works so I wouldnt be surprised if such a place as felarya would actually exist.

Lockheed X-17 wrote:

In this thread we must discuss specific matters around Felarya. Being too bored driven me to create a thread that contains many pieces of data.

The question are, how does the square-cube law in Felarya work? Does Felarya have a weak gravitational field? How does the atmosphere of Felarya comes to play with the physics? Is the magic in Felarya breaking the known laws of physics? or does the physics that apply in Felarya is, broadly defined as, mostly undiscovered?


For example, does the gravity well in Felarya extends into space, or does it just stay trapped inside the Lydus? Is the atmosphere in Felarya large enough to create megaflora and megafauna (Perhaps)



Please, avoid double-posting. Use the Edit button on the top right of your posts.

Interesting ideas but honestly trying to compare Felarya with a normal planet and using an unprobbable and, in my opinion, highly suspect theory? Blah. Seriously we have giant skeletons on earth more then fifty feet high and he was things like a Seisomosaurus which swallowed T-Rexes and used them the way a chicken uses rocks to help break down their food. <.< Square Cube law is unfun and unproven IN OUR WORLD let alone a place thart exists between dimensions where gravity, light and mater all behave in a way that not only disproves Quantum Mechanics? But bends it over it's knee and puts it to bed without supper. As it should be. =P The Square Cube law is also a hinderance to people who don't take the route Felarya has taken to avoid it: It kills giants in stories or weakens them till there's not much point it really exploring things further. It's one of the reason why there's no true viable series like Felarya with giants. I mean unless you count Attack on Titan which I don't know the mechanics of but honestly suspect of stealing Felarya's storyline and enhancing it with bits of realism and more experienced writing while trimming away fetish stuff and focusing on horror...but that's my own personal opinion and off topic. Point is? No Square Cube Law in Felarya. Never has been never will be.

jedi-explorer wrote:

Blah. Seriously we have giant skeletons on earth more then fifty feet high and he was things like a Seisomosaurus which swallowed T-Rexes and used them the way a chicken uses rocks to help break down their food. <.< Square Cube law is unfun and unproven IN OUR WORLD let alone a place thart exists between dimensions where gravity, light and mater all behave in a way that not only disproves Quantum Mechanics? But bends it over it's knee and puts it to bed without supper.

More than a bit of an exaggeration here; Seismosaurus (currently categorized as a Diplodocus species) was as long, from head to tail, as the average predator (i.e. in the 100-foot range), but most of that was extremely long and thin neck and tail, and it was only around 5 meters tall. In our world, the square-cube law is fully intact and proven.

As for Felarya? The ramifications of either having the square-cube law or not having it are both large and far-reaching; you can't go poking part physics with a stick and not expect another part to sneak up behind you and hit you over the head with a much bigger stick. That said, given that adding in the square-cube law at this point would involve redoing...well, everything, down to the very concept, yeah, the square-cube law isn't going to get anywhere near Felarya. Of course, that does mean that it's not just the predators that can get big; human buildings can easily be larger than life, too, and the trees are gigantic. Also, I'm pretty sure there are multiple instances of giant robots on the wiki.

In short? Leave the square-cube law out, then take advantage of its absence when you want to make anything and everything giant.

Thennnn... there is another interesting View one of You once came up with - how about most of the humanoid Species arriving here turn out to be actually... small? And the native Felaryan Giants actually are within the average Tallness? I think this is pretty fascinating. But then all Tinies would be able to use any Water Surface like Gerridae do.

To quote Todd Howard, "it just works. Also, pre-order Fallout 4 today!"

Okay - sounds reasonable. I can live with that.

In all honesty, there's no reason why the square-cube law in it's simplest definition couldn't apply in Felarya. At it's most basic the law is simply about dimension/mass ratios, and would say that Jora, for example, who stands about 20 times as tall as a human, would weigh about 8,000 times as much as a human (The number probably bumps up closer to 20,000 for a giant Naga thanks the the added mass of the tail). I see no reason not to apply this if you wanted to, for some reason, estimate Crisis's weight, or drug dosages (How much acid would a hippie need to have on them to have an effect on Crisis if she ate them?)

What most people think of when they say "square-cube law" is the inability of materials we know of to hold together at massive sizes, but that's actually just an engineering problem and not in the domain of the law itself. Instead of saying that the square-cube law does not apply in Felarya, it's more plausible that giant predators are simply made of some miracle material that can sustain its weight and dissipate heat properly no matter how big it gets (or maybe the predators we see represent the upper limit of what this stuff can handle, which is why fairies can't get much bigger than that. Queen Nemyra is just made of even better stuff that can get even bigger), while still feeling soft like flesh and being able to grow off of food sources made of "normal" substances. That's the part you just handwave and say "it's magic, don't question it", but the physics themselves should hold up perfectly fine assuming crazy magical materials are in play.

Someone tried that, XGT. Greyman101 wrote his "Dynamic Equilibrium" crossover under that assumption. It fails, for a variety of reasons.

For starters, if it were a mere matter of material strength, then things that shrink should become weaker, and things that enlarge should become tougher. Maybe you can accept this for fairies, but what about gerridis? Can the poison preserve your structure perfectly while at the same time shrinking you? Let's forget both fairies and gerridis- why do dimensional accidents, like Jora's or Elenore's, enlarge you to that specific point, and no other? And why do they retain all other functions, including the ability to heal that miracle material, even from matter that is not miraculous?

Heat as you mentioned is also a problem. Let's say tinies are perfectly insulated, why don't their dermal capillaries betray any volume of insulation? And why doesn't their breathing do the same? You cannot insulate yourself from the air you're breathing, because you literally have to exchange atmospheric mass with it. And why can't I make myself a suit of 400 tinies that insulates me just as good?

What about eating? Why can they eat normal matter if they're made of miracle matter, doesn't it take a different amount, since miracle matter must have a different enthalpy? Do they shed miracle matter too? If there is such a thing as miracle matter, why are smaller things not made of it too? It's stronger, it's hardier, it's better in every way.

Some things just don't apply, alright? Let it go- let it go- let it go.

Stabs wrote:

Someone tried that, XGT. Greyman101 wrote his "Dynamic Equilibrium" crossover under that assumption. It fails, for a variety of reasons.

For starters, if it were a mere matter of material strength, then things that shrink should become weaker, and things that enlarge should become tougher. Maybe you can accept this for fairies, but what about gerridis? Can the poison preserve your structure perfectly while at the same time shrinking you? Let's forget both fairies and gerridis- why do dimensional accidents, like Jora's or Elenore's, enlarge you to that specific point, and no other? And why do they retain all other functions, including the ability to heal that miracle material, even from matter that is not miraculous?

Heat as you mentioned is also a problem. Let's say tinies are perfectly insulated, why don't their dermal capillaries betray any volume of insulation? And why doesn't their breathing do the same? You cannot insulate yourself from the air you're breathing, because you literally have to exchange atmospheric mass with it. And why can't I make myself a suit of 400 tinies that insulates me just as good?

What about eating? Why can they eat normal matter if they're made of miracle matter, doesn't it take a different amount, since miracle matter must have a different enthalpy? Do they shed miracle matter too? If there is such a thing as miracle matter, why are smaller things not made of it too? It's stronger, it's hardier, it's better in every way.

Some things just don't apply, alright? Let it go- let it go- let it go.

Um, well... That's a new one. I was used to Dynamic Equilibrium being criticized for invoking TOO MUCH realism, along with... other things. Wanted to kind of step away from all that after I kinda stirred up a hornet's nest with the story, but oh well, might as well thrown in a couple pennies.

First of all, I don't think I specifically said that beings in Felarya had some miraculous matter in their physiology that let them circumvent the Square-Cube Law. In that talk between Exona and Brennan, the former suggested that their was something unique about the bone and muscle structure of giant predators that let them bear their astronomical weights. I don't think I ever implied that something supernatural ever came into play. Otherwise, Brennan wouldn't have had a sudden fear of Crisis actually getting to Earth and being fine. And Crisis did just that... well, sorta. As for tinies... Well, you'd have had to read closely for this one. But when the Alsumi are being evacuated from Milly's home, Yemic tells them all to take warm clothing, because they will find the Giant Tree will be colder. A subtle indication that while tomthumbs seem to not suffer from thermal loss the way the Square-Cube Law would suggest, they're NOT exactly in the clear. Your example regarding breathing is one reason why they wouldn't be, I guess.

Basically, what I wrote in that story as possible suggestions as to how the Square-Cube Law can be worked around in Felarya... Yes, it's bullshit. And I knew it was bullshit when I wrote it. I never got higher than a B in college physics, and I only have a bachelor's in biology. I'm no expert and I don't claim to be. And I'm well aware that trying to apply logic too hard to a setting like Felarya... It's like young-earth creationists trying to come up with explanations about how Noah's Flood could've happened, only to fail every time when actual geology and physics are applied. But it's just how I roll. I just couldn't handwave it away and leave it at that. I had to kind of go, "OK, here's some ways the laws MIGHT be circumvented" and let it dangle and avoid going too deep; the story was a mystery, not a scientific documentary, after all. I had to at least make ATTEMPTS, even if in retrospect they were weak and half-hearted.

Just wanted to clear up a couple things, and make it clear that what was in Dynamic Equilibrium shouldn't be taken too seriously in regards to real-world physics.

If you say so, Greyman. For what it's worth, I know it wasn't key to the story -all the elements work just the same without an explanation- but the way you devoted space to it just made it stick in my mind as the freshest example of what you were suggesting, Xion. Wasn't intending to criticize it either- it came out after I stopped reading stuff, so I couldn't tell you its merits or failings if I wanted to. I'd have to catch up first.

Anyway, Xion, you can introduce yourself if you'd like.

An intro, huh? That's a tall order... and there's another thread for that, which I'll be using shortly. Suffice to say for this discussion, I subscribe to a philosophy of "you shouldn't let realism get in the way of a good story, but you should always keep a lookout for what it can add." Besides, science isn't about saying you can't, it's about asking how. I generally get miffed by the notion of "just ignore physics in fantasy, it just gets in the way", when really all it takes is a little ingenuity to get the two playing nice with each other and then the potential for really cool stuff is opened up by the interplay between the two.

I guess "miracle matter" was the wrong choice of terms for a number of reasons (not the least of which being that I can only think of the Kirby 64 boss when I hear it). I actually didn't intend for it to be a different kind of substance altogether, more like perfectly ordinary flesh that has some manner of enchantment placed on it. I mean, you can enchant metal and rocks to levitate or cover themselves in flames, so why not have enchanted flesh to support more weight while still feeling soft?

Anyways, I would generally ignore the implications of the square-cube law when it comes to what a character is capable of; not because the law itself does not apply but because the characters in questions have their own ways of working around it it that work. There's not much I need to know other than that it works, which is obvious because they are there and functioning just fine. But the law is still there, because the square cube law is not "a 300 foot long naga can't exist", but rather "a 300 foot long naga weighs about 12 hundred tons". How a 12 hundred ton Naga gets by is irrelevant, so we just say "quite well" and leave it at that.

You can go further than just "it works", Lockheed, Xion. My problem is that any shift will have unintended consequences- the potential for really cool stuff opened by the interplay between the fantasy and the realism. What if there's yet another unintended consequence from your assumption, and you need an ad hoc band-aid for that too?

Getting the giants to so much as exist was ad hoc from the beginning. You can discuss its consequences to your heart's content, of course: I've dabbled with a few versions of the solution myself. I'm not against realism per se- I'm just against attempts at definitive solutions.

Here we go again

Well as I see it the problem with square-cube law is that you either really try to abides by it or you ignore it. There is not really anything in between of there would be no point.
In the case of Felarya, there are just so many things that contradict it I prefer to completely ignore it ^^;

Oh, bones are no problem. If all you want is something rigid, you've got a lot of options. The tricky part is everything else: you would need a material that can hold up that much weight while still squishing and bending like flesh needs to do to function. I don't think any material we are currently aware up is up to the task. A theoretical material that has the properties you need would be technically possible... but invite way too many complications. It would, for one thing, be very hard, to us at least. Ever felt a tire? To our hands they feel completely rigid, even if they stretch and conform perfectly well under the forces of a car in motion. Felaryan giant flesh would be the same story times a hundred; even if it squishes like "normal" flesh to them, it would feel like concrete to our wimpy human bodies (soft vore would be right out - the esophagus would crush the victim into paste). There's also the problem of how to go about turning the materials that make up human flesh into the materials that make up giant flesh, which obviously needs to happen if humans constitute a viable food source for giants. It really just doesn't work, even when it does.

If anyone ever wanted to know how much any given giant in Felarya weighs, then I think it'd be only natural to use the square-cube law to calculate that, given that Felarya is a setting that is supposed to represent a three-dimensional space. But when talking about all but the simplest implications of it, it's really something that just needs to be left to the willing suspension of disbelief.

Karbo wrote:

Well as I see it the problem with square-cube law is that you either really try to abides by it or you ignore it. There is not really anything in between of there would be no point.
In the case of Felarya, there are just so many things that contradict it I prefer to completely ignore it ^^;

Even though I'm no physicist (again, never got higher than a B), ignoring the Square-Cube Law altogether it not an option for yours truly. That's why Dynamic Equilibrium briefly touched on it. As if to say, "Yeah, the law's still in effect, research is being done to see how all these giant preds get around it, but we don't have all the answers yet."

A good example of how I view it is the movie Pacific Rim. The Jaegers and Kaijus in that film...are FREAKIN' MASSIVE! They easily dwarf most of our beloved Felaryan preds, and the Square-Cube Law should doom them. But then you sit back and consider the following. If Earth has sufficiently advanced technology to make an on-board power source to get something as big as a Jaeger to even MOVE, then there must be engineering techniques to render the Square-Cube Law moot. Same for the aliens that spawn the Kaijus. And then you sit back and enjoy the spectacle of giant things smacking the shit out of each other.

Another reason I can't swallow the "Oh Felarya's magic so don't bother" handwave is, well, some of these giant preds come from places OTHER than Felarya. JiroKatsu's Kai Roga Mayin is perhaps the most well-known example. And then there's NickInAmerica's Silver Scales story. Remus's naga 'daughter' got pretty damn big before she fled his world, big enough where the Square-Cube Law should've hampered her big-time. So it just leads me to think there are some evolutionary adaptions rather than magic at play.

Evolution is different then adaptation...but yes i follow you Greyman, As we keep using science to unveil new dimensions in physics, having a giant that big isn't entirely impossible. Then again felarya doesn't have typical terrestrial gravity, it's all one big plane, not a planet with a sphere of iron at it's mass. But this is what fiction essentially is, going on the illusion of disbelief but not making it discredited partially or entirely.

Okay, I guess I might as well try to type a serious answer to this question.

My overall stance when it comes to realism vs suspension of disbelief in fiction pretty revolves around the question of what would such scrutiny of said subject gives or takes from the story and how relevant it is to the fiction's themes.

On one hand, this kind of scrunity as acceptable is when a narrative subtext hinges on something making sense. (As aposed to narrative subtext that hinges on something not making sense, like 'Alice's adventures In Wonderland')
In these cases for example a main character's backstory needs to make sense because the narrative will expect the reader's emotional investment based on it making sense, you can't get away with suspension of disbelief when a subject matter is directly in the spotlight and asking an emotional reaction.
Anything that involve's the narrative's core message needs to be consistant as well, otherwise the moral of the story will ring false or be an outright lie.
A hard sci-fi needs to make sense because that genre's main idea is about subjects that could very well happen and therefore needs to be accurate or else be stripped of it's right to be categorized as Hard sci-fi.
suspension of disbelief are not acceptable in these circumstances in my opinon, the need for realism gives the very essence of what these contexts are about.

On the other hand, such examination can hinder other fiction such as Felarya. Such as ruining the pacing, it's not wise to explain every single little thing because then you'd have characters going on wild tangents on the stuff around them at the most inappropriate times. Felarya simply has too much fantasy subjects to cover as generally simply doesn't have the structure to properly examine them all.
For example, when exactly is the square-cube law going to be of any use in a Felarya set story? When or Who is even going to pose the question? The predators don't even know what it is. ("What's a law?")
Adventurers arn't really going to ask the question, given that when your in a forest being hunted down by a pred, you're most likely more concerned with the mere fact that they exist, rather than standing around rubbing their chins at the mathalogical implausibility of their existance, it's not like they are going to spin around and go "Ha! I am not in any real danger because a 16th century mathalogical law says you cannot exist!"
The Local humans might ask, but given how most encounters with predators turn out it's very unlikely they are going to get the chance to examine the predators enougth to get a answer.

Overall I see it as a question that offers very little to the themes of the setting, It's not actually going to make the setting more believeable, nor does this kind of believeablity offer anything to a animeish femdom fantasy world. We don't really even know what the predators really are, not really. They might not be science bound at all for all we know, has anyone noticed how many of the mythological creatures in Felarya have spirital roots? In the old myths Nagas were deities, Faries were spirits, Nekos were cat spirits in the form of humans, Dridders/Arachne were cursed elves/humans who been put into the form of spiders. None of these creature's origins are science bound, I am not saying they absolutely can't be, I just don't understand the attiitude in this community that insists that they must be.

I am disturbed by some people in this community who have an obsession over realistic details at the sheer expense of purpose or meaning. Realism can work when it actually works in favour with the story at hand, but alot of the time in this community just wants realism for the sake of realism, ironically enougth the detail at the expence of purpose comes at the cost of making the setting feel unreal as the setting starts to feel shallow, unnatural and artifical