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Karbo
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:31 am

Well you can have some characters from earth in Felarya. It's technically possible. But like Stabs said I think we should avoid mentioning it in the cannon. it's there but as far as Felarya goes, I don't think Earth should be regarded or treated differently than any of the other countless worlds in the universe.
If you say to a Negavian " I come from Earth", They'll just give you replies ranging from " Uh yeah cool" to " What a strange name." Razz ( or maybe "How un-imaginative" )

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:32 am

French snack wrote:
I think we all agree that it's not possible to open deliberate portals between Felarya and Earth. The question is whether Felarya can connect with Earth via the "vanishing lands" phenomenon.
Thats wrong. The Ur sagol gate is supposed to connect to any world the traveller wants to go to, which includes Earth. The connection can only be established from Felarya to earth (unless a canon portal on earth is established, which i assume wont happen), and unless specified we dont know if its 2-ways or one-way, but its canon and there is no rule that excludes earth from this.

The vanishing lands phenomenon is the more likely way of connection though, and I dont see why you would arise a question here, as again, its supposed to connect to any random world, so there is no reason why earth could not be among them. The chance is slim, but it is possible.



French snack wrote:
But I think, if possible, the use of Earth is a trend that we should dissuade people from using in future.

THIS is exactly what I disagreed with in my earlier post. As far as I can recall, you yourself have earth people in felarya in one of your stories, so how can you even think about forbidding or disencouraging people from doing the same?

Karbo and I have very similar if not the same views on this, Earth doesnt have to be specifically mentioned as its nothing special, but to try and bring people away from it is just cancelling out a vast pool of ideas and concepts with nothing gained for it. If you dont like the earth-Felarya crossover, then dont use it or dont read the stories revolving around it.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:42 am

Amaroq wrote:
The Ur sagol gate is supposed to connect to any world the traveller wants to go to, which includes Earth. The connection can only be established from Felarya to earth (unless a canon portal on earth is established, which i assume wont happen), and unless specified we dont know if its 2-ways or one-way, but its canon and there is no rule that excludes earth from this.

Yes. (If one knows that Earth exists, of course. Which almost nobody in Felarya would.)

Quote :

THIS is exactly what I disagreed with in my earlier post. As far as I can recall, you yourself have earth people in felarya in one of your stories, so how can you even think about forbidding or disencouraging people from doing the same?

I addressed that point explicitly.

Quote :
Karbo and I have very similar if not the same views on this, Earth doesnt have to be specifically mentioned as its nothing special, but to try and bring people away from it is just cancelling out a vast pool of ideas and concepts with nothing gained for it. If you dont like the earth-Felarya crossover, then dont use it or dont read the stories revolving around it.

I think I made my view quite clear. People can write whatever they want, but the repeated use of Earth is both implausible and unoriginal. It should not be encouraged and, indeed, shouldn't be mentioned in the canon. (Which it already isn't.)

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:51 am

I just wanted to make clear that everyone should be able to write what they want and you shouldnt go ahead and recommend people to not use earth if they want to use it just because some other people did a bad job at it or it has been done countless times before. You can offer them more interesting places and if youre successful, they will opt for that heritage rather than earth. :3
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:28 am

Yeah, about Ur-Sagol's gate...

Da Wiki wrote:
This gate is one of the most used ones on Felarya. Its design is unique and a great source of wonder and mystery. Other gates are only able to connect to gates that use a similar connection system as they do, whether magical or science based. However this one seems to be able to adapt, connect and otherwise function completely independent of all others... perfectly.
Ur-Sagol's gate can only connect to other gates. If a world doesn't have a gate, you ain't warping there using Ur-Sagol's. So unless we have a Earth in the far distant future with dimensional warping gates, you can't get there using Ur-Sagol's gate. Admittedly, the wording is a little off, so most people, myself included, thought it could warp you anywhere you wanted in space so long it's not already occupied by a solid object.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:41 am

still there is nothing preventing earth from having such a gate. there are enough series such as Stargate that explain perfectly well (within the terms of sci fi) why a gate could be hidden or whatever.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:30 am

Karbo wrote:
Well you can have some characters from earth in Felarya. It's technically possible. But like Stabs said I think we should avoid mentioning it in the cannon. it's there but as far as Felarya goes, I don't think Earth should be regarded or treated differently than any of the other countless worlds in the
universe.
If you say to a Negavian " I come from Earth", They'll just give you replies ranging from " Uh yeah cool" to " What a strange name." Razz ( or maybe "How un-imaginative" )


^This.

I'm personally going to stick with this about Earth and Felarya. Seriously, even a few well known stories had people from Earth.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:32 am

I'm sorry, but not mentioning it in canon is why we're having this discussion in the first place, yes? I think it would be prudent to have some mention of its relationship with Felarya somewhere, if only as a reference we can use to not bring this up again.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:46 pm

Amaroq wrote:
still there is nothing preventing earth from having such a gate. there are enough series such as Stargate that explain perfectly well (within the terms of sci fi) why a gate could be hidden or whatever.

Hmmmm I'm rewatching the series right now and even I didn't think of that. That'll help out Kate's storyline allot, thanks Roq!

I suppose French/Karbo's idea of "Oh you're from Earth huh? Neat I guess. Still have to pay your tab,  dear." it the best policy and I'll try it out myself and see if I like it before I protest it.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:39 am

Amaroq wrote:
still there is nothing preventing earth from having such a gate. there are enough series such as Stargate that explain perfectly well (within the terms of sci fi) why a gate could be hidden or whatever.

Amaroq......if earth had a gate to Felarya this whole time and could make frequent visits, pray tell as to how Negav is still stuck a 16th century like state?

Or.....ugh.....Why hasn't Negav been taken over by earth corporate interests? I mean, it's a backwater place compared to 21st century earth, so the Magiocrats would have let earth have her hands all over Negav if it meant they get larger profits and perhaps even a position of power on earth in exchange. (The Magiocrats could buy an earth settlement and develop things from there, no problem from the guardians!)

And it's not like earth wouldn't see Negav as a good deal, as I said, it's a backwater place so it would be reasonably cheap for an multi-million company to purchase. Earth won't care for Negaviean superstitions about expanding Negav and so will believe this is something they can expand and develop, the Magiocrats might warn them...but lets face it, if earth paid them triple their original value, let them keep their mines and gave them a slice of earth I doubt they will give a damn, they will let the earthlings take the risk and they will live the good life on their earth country.  

Or something like that anyways, at the very least we can safely say that some major changes in Negav would happen if Earth had a gate and a stable link to Felarya, once earth finds out about Negav, big companies will try to do big business with the city leaders and take advantage of this "New world."

This is why I say it's a bad idea, people here clearly don't realise the scale of what they are proposing. (or perhaps, they just don't care) It wouldn't just be a few earth badasses coming through the gate for the typical screwing about in the felarya forest, (well okay, it would be for starters as earthlings come with terms with Felarya's existence) but eventuality you would expect a massive overhaul of the Felarya setting as earth gets wise and starts throwing her weight about.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:33 am

DarkOne wrote:
Amaroq wrote:
still there is nothing preventing earth from having such a gate. there are enough series such as Stargate that explain perfectly well (within the terms of sci fi) why a gate could be hidden or whatever.

Amaroq......if earth had a gate to Felarya this whole time and could make frequent visits, pray tell as to how Negav is still stuck a 16th century like state?

Or.....ugh.....Why hasn't Negav been taken over by earth corporate interests? I mean, it's a backwater place compared to 21st century earth, so the Magiocrats would have let earth have her hands all over Negav if it meant they get larger profits and perhaps even a position of power on earth in exchange. (The Magiocrats could buy an earth settlement and develop things from there, no problem from the guardians!)

And it's not like earth wouldn't see Negav as a good deal, as I said, it's a backwater place so it would be reasonably cheap for an multi-million company to purchase. Earth won't care for Negaviean superstitions about expanding Negav and so will believe this is something they can expand and develop, the Magiocrats might warn them...but lets face it, if earth paid them triple their original value, let them keep their mines and gave them a slice of earth I doubt they will give a damn, they will let the earthlings take the risk and they will live the good life on their earth country.  

Or something like that anyways, at the very least we can safely say that some major changes in Negav would happen if Earth had a gate and a stable link to Felarya, once earth finds out about Negav, big companies will try to do big business with the city leaders and take advantage of this "New world."

This is why I say it's a bad idea, people here clearly don't realise the scale of what they are proposing. (or perhaps, they just don't care) It wouldn't just be a few earth badasses coming through the gate for the typical screwing about in the felarya forest, (well okay, it would be for starters as earthlings come with terms with Felarya's existence) but eventuality you would expect a massive overhaul of the Felarya setting as earth gets wise and starts throwing her weight about.

i never said frequent visits. also you are on a pretty high horse when you think earth could easily overtake felarya or negav or ur sagol or whatever. There are enough worlds on a similar strength level as earth.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:38 am

DarkOne wrote:
Amaroq wrote:
still there is nothing preventing earth from having such a gate. there are enough series such as Stargate that explain perfectly well (within the terms of sci fi) why a gate could be hidden or whatever.

Amaroq......if earth had a gate to Felarya this whole time and could make frequent visits, pray tell as to how Negav is still stuck a 16th century like state?

Or.....ugh.....Why hasn't Negav been taken over by earth corporate interests? I mean, it's a backwater place compared to 21st century earth, so the Magiocrats would have let earth have her hands all over Negav if it meant they get larger profits and perhaps even a position of power on earth in exchange. (The Magiocrats could buy an earth settlement and develop things from there, no problem from the guardians!)

And it's not like earth wouldn't see Negav as a good deal, as I said, it's a backwater place so it would be reasonably cheap for an multi-million company to purchase. Earth won't care for Negaviean superstitions about expanding Negav and so will believe this is something they can expand and develop, the Magiocrats might warn them...but lets face it, if earth paid them triple their original value, let them keep their mines and gave them a slice of earth I doubt they will give a damn, they will let the earthlings take the risk and they will live the good life on their earth country. �

Or something like that anyways, at the very least we can safely say that some major changes in Negav would happen if Earth had a gate and a stable link to Felarya, once earth finds out about Negav, big companies will try to do big business with the city leaders and take advantage of this "New world."

This is why I say it's a bad idea, people here clearly don't realise the scale of what they are proposing. (or perhaps, they just don't care) It wouldn't just be a few earth badasses coming through the gate for the typical screwing about in the felarya forest, (well okay, it would be for starters as earthlings come with terms with Felarya's existence) but eventuality you would expect a massive overhaul of the Felarya setting as earth gets wise and starts throwing her weight about.

Unless that Earth is a future-Earth where inter-galaxy travel has become common and their technology is top-notch enough to blow up or terraform a planet in a very short time, I don't see how Earthlings getting into Felarya can impact much on this world.

I mean, looks at other inter-dimensional empires, where technology certainly surpass the modern Earth for years of light, such as Deluran. Not mention about magic, which Earthlings does not possess. Such empires have come to Felarya and achieved little, either they are too cautious, Felarya is too much for them to handle, or Felaryan government does some behind-the-scene tricks to prevent them from expansion. If such empires can fail, how Earthlings can succeed?

Anyway, I'm fine with whether Earthling can access Felarya by their own will or not. Felarya is not the fantasy world in the Gate manga, where the fantasy people are easily overwhelmed by modern warfare tactics and equipment. Felarya is more dangerous and a lot harder to handle than that. Let say a nation on Earth manages to get a dimensional gate to Felarya, I'm sure such a fact will become top secret, and the said nation will try to explore and hoard whatever they can get from Felarya, instead of publicizing it and inviting trouble from other nations.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:49 am

Amaroq wrote:
i never said frequent visits. also you are on a pretty high horse when you think earth could easily overtake felarya or negav or ur sagol or whatever. There are enough worlds on a similar strength level as earth.

I would rebutle on that. Felayra? sure, no one is taking that over as a whole from earth. Negav, definitely can happen through corporate espionage and tactics, heck even forcefully if someone was a dick. and that's because of one thing. Numbers and the capability of numbers.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't an idiot. I'm also going to assume you are talking about Negav strictly and it's capability

Have you took a look at negav? It's population is the size of about 700'000 so saids Da wiki. And currently there's some power plays between some political opponents and parties (Vishmital and magiocrats being the primary while some nobleman/woman are caught in the middle). So lets start out nice. Lets start out corporate. There is a populaiton of said above and the ones in charge of industrialization and econmy are a handful of lets say 20, fifty at best. So lets say some country. which the smallest lets likely say 100'000. It's out in the boonies of the U.N. watch and has the gate to themselves decides to have some interaction. It's going to be kept secret for awhile but eventually because of how our intelligence agencies work today. It's going to be found eventually (lets go from now to 200 years where our technology is so developed it's like magic). Then one super power will get involved and continue to keep things hush hush. like tkh has said until it can start to understand the workings of Negav.

Now you could retort that the Negavan politicians are skilled in keeping power. Buuuut, They can only tear down so many people from their ladders and high horses before eventually someone catches on to how they do it. Mainly by watching their associates fail in trying to bring down the negavan buisness. There's too many people either being cautious or being daring in how to deal with these new found people. Eventually some will succeed and integrate into society with their ideals and start bringing their own resources in. There's case one.

Number two, lets say it's hostile. A country finds out that there's a gate that leads to other worlds, and lets go with tkh's scenarios that the world doesn't band together and do something like stargate to watch over itself or heck, even if it did. It still has numbers. This one country is going to sneak informaiton to a super power to get profit and again, you know have the fundment and support you need to take negav. The gate is right outside and if it stays open for a period of time then closes, then all you need is one quick unforgiving strike and foresight (assuming there's no negavan security with foresight of what's on the other side of the gate to prevent this from happening). And if the gate works like i heard, random but eventually you'll find your portal to where you want to go. Then yes a strike of some odd battalions of soldiers charging through the gate then setting up camp outside while keeping the people of magic and advanced sci-fi away from them ensues. They would have to wait from ours to weeks before the next set of reinforcement arrives. I don't imagine the battle will be quick unless some big assets (giants) start affiliating themselves with negav and help turn the tide. But negav already has a nasty superstition to not trust predators or being of that size, so that likely won't happen. You think the vishmital will send support to the Islon fist? They see someone somewhat proficient (to their standards) in technology. They might even stall giving support to the magiocrats to see what these guys can do and possibly might negotiate with them unless provoked and they attack the wall directly in which case,defence in retaliation is needed.
The wait period is crucial. If the Isolon fist ever hope to strike back it would have to be before the said country sets up camp, and a second wave comes in. You bet that's when all the heavy assets start showing up like vehicles and sieging weaponry. That just made the fight to take back the gate all that much harder and longer of an opponent dugged in with a lot of numbers.

Ur-sagol gate is easy pickings because in any of the two scenarios they again have the numbers. And if i'm not mistaken, Ur-sagol is less finnicky and more stable.

So yes it's possible. At the moment is a it logical? HECK NO!

because at that point your infamous wrecking and clean up crew, One and if not all guardians come in, then guess what. No gates for nobody.

Protip: When arguing about a faction's strength, look towards their numbers. That's how you win corporate or conventional wars.

tkh1304 wrote:
Anyway, I'm fine with whether Earthling can access Felarya by their own will or not. Felarya is not the fantasy world in the Gate manga, where the fantasy people are easily overwhelmed by modern warfare tactics and equipment. Felarya is more dangerous and a lot harder to handle than that. Let say a nation on Earth manages to get a dimensional gate to Felarya, I'm sure such a fact will become top secret, and the said nation will try to explore and hoard whatever they can get from Felarya, instead of publicizing it and inviting trouble from other nations.

If you really want to keep it that way. My suggestion would just be keeping the gates a one way out felarya construct. And if anybody comes from them it's a person who understands dimensional travel. But again, any person or persons can do that, so to fit the setting their would have to be some cockblock of a puzzle or pinpoint mapping that makes it so no civilizaiton or person can just send an army right on through. Otherwise it makes logical sense (strategically) to target these things. Whether you're one or a people of a many.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:48 am

ravaging vixen wrote:

I would rebutle on that. Felayra? sure, no one is taking that over as a whole from earth. Negav, definitely can happen through corporate espionage and tactics, heck even forcefully if someone was a dick. and that's because of one thing. Numbers and the capability of numbers.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't an idiot.  I'm also going to assume you are talking about Negav strictly and it's capability
That was VERY rude of you.
But for the sake of conversation I consider giving YOU the benefit of the doubt and assume YOU arent an idiot, though i prefer to remind you that we already made clear that the negav portal doesnt connect to earth, so every guy from earth would come out at ur sagol and would have to travel to Negav, possibly on foot. Making any attempt of taking over the city super hard especially since negav has such intense denfenses that any invading force would have to go past them and the power hungry aristocrats would certainly not watch as some earth company tried to take over.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:02 am

"I'm going to assume your aren't an idiot"

That was pretty litteral, I didn't mean that to be snide if you took it that way. My condolences.

Amaroq wrote:
But for the sake of conversation I consider giving YOU the benefit of the doubt and assume YOU arent an idiot, though i prefer to remind you that we already made clear that the negav portal doesnt connect to earth, so every guy from earth would come out at ur sagol and would have to travel to Negav, possibly on foot. Making any attempt of taking over the city super hard especially since negav has such intense denfenses that any invading force would have to go past them and the power hungry aristocrats would certainly not watch as some earth company tried to take over.

If we did, then you would have said that to darkone, he didn't seem to quite understand that so I have to go off the matter of fact based on the previous part of the conversation that we didn't. Now this is rather new and interesting information i'd like a confirmation on. From a source or reference just so we're on the right page. As for negav. As stated before. Numbers. It doesn't matter if they have a super hard defense when pointed out earlier. Negav still has some covert infighting and if a real fight showed up with capability it will vary as one of the mentions i said with the vishmitals. They could look at that as an oppurtunity of betrayal and self gain if they aren't jerks. Read again what i said then counter those possible factors.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:11 am

Giving your condolence to a person that feels insulted is just another level of insult added to the initial one. You should apologize instead.

Im not giving you any numbers because there are none and you know that. But from pictures ive seen of Negav there are pretty hefty turrets there and you cant exactly move a giant army through the jungle very quickly. So unless you started an all out war with Felarya, which companies usually dont do, I dont see how you try to take it by force. And all those assholes that rule Negav are used to use intrigues and will most likely spot any butt that tries to butt in and take over themselves because they are all heartless idiots that dont give a damn about lifes that are lost for a little gain of power on their own side.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:24 am

Amaroq wrote:
Giving your condolence to a person that feels insulted is just another level of insult added to the initial one.

Quite right, actually… Vixen, I understand you didn't mean it in an aggressive way, but saying to someone "I assume you're not an idiot" is quite a clear backhanded slap.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:14 am

Condolence: "an expression of sympathy, especially on the occasion of a death."

Both yours and french snacks matters are noted. And I already apologized. No need to ignore past text and do it again. Now please stop and get back to the conversation at hand...

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:29 am

let me get this straight, there are people on this thread who is arguing for earth's inclusion in the felarya canon but want to block any attempts to bring any consideration to the political and social ramifications that such an scenario would bring?

Basically they just want to introduce another bog-standard military/adventurer drop ins, just like all the others, except the noun of their home-planet has the letters E-A-R-T and H in it.

And all this, for "creative freedom"?

It kinda feels pointless to me


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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:37 am

darkone wrote:
It kinda feels pointless to me

That's kind of what i don't get. There's no point for earth to be in there unless you want people to be familiar with the person's perspective to your own. Which you and I know people don't focus (that much at least) in their stories to really bring that kind of side out. That's what you should be having someone from earth to do. Otherwise their character is really like any other adventurer which has the potential to become more interesting because they have an entire alien and unfamiliar background to get attached to them.

Edit/P.S.: This also open up the possibilities of which earth we're talking about. Are we going to be the one where you have your current political lines and technology. Or is it going to be near future, or maybe perhaps in the past? Do you want that kind of corss dimensional alternate line from happening which will open a can of worms of time travel and alternate "selves" of people?

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:40 pm

Ok, well what I mean is "Would it be ok if say, a bus of people or a plane suddenly came to Felarya via a portal and had to survive?"

As I recall, that was the point of "Lost in Felarya". But I was wondering if it was possible and acceptible for Frlarya to join Earth as we know it.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:57 am

I must admit all these are compelling arguments and interesting but I think we already said Earth won't be deleted from cannon world's it'll just be unmentioned as much in professional stuff of Karbo's as possible. As for fannon  development it'll be something what discouraged. Not by badgering but by gentle bits of advice.

Not to rehash but I'm surprised people listing an SGC or higher force invading Negav straight out didn't realize any invading army would have to deal with the greatest defense of  Negav's: man eating fauna, flora and predators. Just getting used to the sheer variety of vicious wild life is hard enough but then you get into giant humanoid beings with your level of intelligence or beyond your level of strength. After all of that? Lady Astralaza Lesona whom hasn't held on to all of her power for nothing for all these years. She's enough of a threat that Vivian keeps notes from what I remember.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:30 am

Jedi-explorer wrote:
Not to rehash but I'm surprised people listing an SGC or higher force invading Negav straight out didn't realize any invading army would have to deal with the greatest defense of Negav's: man eating fauna, flora and predators. Just getting used to the sheer variety of vicious wild life is hard enough but then you get into giant humanoid beings with your level of intelligence or beyond your level of strength. After all of that? Lady Astralaza Lesona whom hasn't held on to all of her power for nothing for all these years. She's enough of a threat that Vivian keeps notes from what I remember.

I didn't mention that because of deductive reasoning with stratagem. obviously in either gate you'd set up camp for a long period of time because of the reasons you just mentioned. As far Lesona go. It's all of a matter of how many people you send to the slaughter to her way of thinking, coy, and ability to manipulate and curse people before eventually somebody figures out a drawback and out beats her single handily or by the attrition of their partners sacrifices of figuring out a way to bring her down. This is what i mean by numbers. Unless she can corrupt people forcibly which to some extent, she has with her cursing ability somebody is going to find an eventual drawback to that and beat her. It's why i'm not all too imposing as her being a threat as she only seems to own negav and want that with her own agenda.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:35 am

Uh, jedi, did you look at Negav's map recently? The gateway to Negav is literally right next to the city's main bridge. Assuming an invasion force came from there, they're bypassing all the ravenous fauna and flora because it's smack dab in the middle of the Isolon Eye's influence.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya and Earth   Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:35 am

[quote="ravaging vixen"]
Jedi-explorer wrote:
Not to rehash but I'm surprised people listing an SGC or higher force invading Negav straight out didn't realize any invading army would have to deal with the greatest defense of  Negav's: man eating fauna, flora and predators. Just getting used to the sheer variety of vicious wild life is hard enough but then you get into giant humanoid beings with your level of intelligence or beyond your level of strength. After all of that? Lady Astralaza Lesona whom hasn't held on to all of her power for nothing for all these years. She's enough of a threat that Vivian keeps notes from what I remember.[/quote

I didn't mention that because of deductive reasoning with stratagem. obviously in either gate you'd set up camp for a long period of time because of the reasons you just mentioned. As far Lesona go. It's all of a matter of how many people you send to the slaughter to her way of thinking, coy, and ability to manipulate and curse people before eventually somebody figures out a drawback and out beats her single handily or by the attrition of their partners sacrifices of figuring out a way to bring her down. This is what i mean by numbers. Unless she can corrupt people forcibly which to some extent, she has with her cursing ability somebody is going to find an eventual drawback to that and beat her. It's why i'm not all too imposing as her being a threat as she only seems to own negav and want that with her own agenda.

O_____O *Makes a note not to go to war with Vix* Why do I have feeling you'll be an officer in only a year or two and after that? Running our space naval program.
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