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 Negav; Fleshing it out

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Lockheed X-17
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PostSubject: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:02 am

So there are many empty spaces in the Negav page in the wiki....

(Let there be light!)

Regarding about the Economy of Negav, it seems that it is pretty reliant on trade than money, marking it as a pre-industrial civilization. But it is arguable that it is changing, and it also has banks. Money seems to be mostly made out of gold and copper, and it rarely import or export materials, rather it comes to them. The economic backbone of Negav are the merchants and bank tellers, a bit bad since modern economy relies on businessmen/women than merchants. The point, however, is that it's economy is sharply rising, given it's economic background.

Regarding about the Infrastructure of Negav, it seems to be built using native materials, and carefully carved to the suited design. Glass and stone (is it stone?) are rather accessible, and buildings seems to be domelike. Many architects in the modern times would pick a simple, elegant, rectangular houses, since circular houses are rather tedious to design. They support massive amounts of weight, but they would crumble when it reaches a certain limit.

Regarding about the Politics of Negav. Basic government structure is similar to feudalism, and is attacked mostly by the military. The other side of it is dangerous, because it has high chances of being corrupted by it's members. The sources of their backgrounds are rather unfounded, so try to think more about it.

Regarding about the Education system of Negav, it seems that they have a rather effective way of education, mainly because of the translation spells and the magic of Negav, but there are only few researchers in the field of science, mostly because it breaks the know laws of Physics Laughing, but it would provide a medium kind of education for the people on Negav. Primary education seems to be centered around communication and mathematics, but little on the fields of science and technology. Magic here is entwined with technology, but the scientific researches on it are few, given the number of theories given by Felaryan scientists. The only thing that bothers me is that there are actually less people who is into science in Felarya, and mostly people there is interested in Languages, Magic, History, etc.

Regarding the History of Negav, The city is surrounded by trees and hills, and is quite a defensive area, but since it's main attackers are predators, they developed a way on how to defend themselves. Other than that, I have no actual idea about it's history.

Regarding about Healthcare of Negav, Since given the properties of Felaryan soil, this seems redundant, but there are parts when they actually give first aid. Healthcare is mostly limited to warriors, adventurers, etc. Other than that, I have no other ideas.

Any other ideas?
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:39 am

Yes, I have a new idea, it's called: "You got your facts wrong."

First of all, the economy.  Money isn't made of gold and copper, it primarily uses Skevols, which are made of tessium, an alloy that uses gold, fair enough, but also pyralite and a complex magical process.  Negav does import and export.  What do you think the big gate right next to the front door is for?  One of the major import is food from Lord Gramon's world in exchange for some weaponry so that they can actually defend themselves.  Another major import is Ascarlin and some of the fancy shmancy magic gems that seem lying around.  They are precious and Negav does keep a good portion to itself, but they are so sought after that you'd have to be stupid not to make a profit with them.  You seem to have forgotten that Negav was once small enough that trading with Nekomura was a good option, until it grew so much it became negligible.

Infrastructure, just read this Or check out Karbo's gallery, he has a few example of buildings in Negav. Just search "Negav" in his gallery and you should get what you're looking for.

Politics, do you even know what feudalism is?  Let me give you a hint:
Da Wiktionary wrote:
A social system based on personal ownership of resources and personal fealty between a suzerain (lord) and a vassal (subject). Defining characteristics are direct ownership of resources, personal loyalty, and a hierarchical social structure reinforced by religion.
 Considering there is barely any territory for Negav to really rule over, Nekomura being a special case because they were tricked into vassalage.  Negav is a city-state ruled by an oligarchy of supremely powerful wizards.  It is not a feudalist country.

Education, you don't seem to focus much around how the system works, and more around what's taught in school. It makes sense that magic would be a common subject, even if just theory, but beyond that, what you list is pretty much the same as in first-world countries in real life. It doesn't stand out at all.

About its History, just read this

Healthcare, accidents can happen everywhere, at work and at home, too.  Seriously, the soil doesn't grant Wolverine-tier healing factor.  If you break your arm, suffer poisoning, or accidentally amputate yourself, the soil isn't gonna fix it in a couple of hours, you HAVE to seek a doctor.  It doesn't take a genius to realize that Negav's healthcare is a combination of magic and modern medical science.  They take advantage of the soil's property to help accelerate the recovery, not use it as a cure all.  Things like surgeons and physicians are important because, contrary to popular belief, if you got something stuck in your body, casting Cure on it won't magically remove it.

I advise you do research first and foremost before you try to come up with ideas to flesh out Negav.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:47 am

I'm going to have to back Shady up on this one. It's...pretty clear you didn't research enough about what we already know about Negav to fill in what we don't know. ^^; That, or you mis-interpreted a lot of things.

If we're going to flesh out Negav, we have to take inventory of what exactly we want to know about it first. I'll start: Does Negav have a plumbing system, which brings fresh or at least clean water into people's homes, and if so, how does it work? Do they have toilets, and if so, what do they look like? Are these sorts of conveniences reserved for residents of the city's higher tier only? Do they have a waste disposal system, and if so, how does it work? Is being a waste disposal worker, if the system relies on those, seen as low a light as it is in our world, or is it more important, even if due to novelty? These are things I'd like to know which, unless they were elaborated upon when I wasn't looking, haven't been described in the wiki as of yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:25 am

Da Wiki wrote:
Negav's Underground : The "other" area of Negav. This includes houses for some of the more lower class citizens, as well as cheaper markets and shops. Those too poor to even afford an underground house live in the Pit, the slum of Negav. Lots of the functions of Negav, like handling of the dead, sewage and wate[r] are managed in facilities in the underground.
I believe the probability of Negav having somewhat modern plumbing and sewage system are very high.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:47 am

Shady Knight wrote:
I believe the probability of Negav having somewhat modern plumbing and sewage system are very high.

My point is, we need to compile a list of sorts of everything we want to know about Negav in one place, and this thread would serve a good purpose as that place. I was hoping for questions, Shady, not answers.

Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:24 am

Is it really that important? It's a fucking sewer system. It probably just leads to a wastewater treatment plant, like it happens in real life, except theirs is probably more magitech-y. Seriously, of all the things Negav needs to be developed, I think the fucking sewers rank low, if not, at the very bottom on that list.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:53 am

Modern sewage system in an pre-industrial setting?

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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:11 am

Shady Knight wrote:
Is it really that important?  It's a fucking sewer system.  It probably just leads to a wastewater treatment plant, like it happens in real life, except theirs is probably more magitech-y.  Seriously, of all the things Negav needs to be developed, I think the fucking sewers rank low, if not, at the very bottom on that list.

Isn't it enough that I want to know? More detailed information on these systems could be very important to writing an accurate portrayal of Negav, especially if a story has characters crawling through the sewer system or taking advantage of garbage disposal. You're always asking for more detailed descriptions of Negav, so why are you trying to dismiss something that we have a chance to get more information on? Also, instead of just using your next post to answer my question, how about you stop being counter-productive and list out some of the things you've been wanting to know about Negav?
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:13 am

DarkOne wrote:
Mmmkaay

Mmmkaay indeed. And no, there's nothing funny-sounding about the Cloaca Maxima.

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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:09 am

Can somebody please break down what exactly the topic here is in a few short sentences? from what I read in the comments its about politics, sewage, underground negav and and and.... I think its too vast to be covered in one single topic since one can easily get lost here and I'd recommend splitting these things into several topics, maybe?
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:47 am

There is no topic. This whole thread came to be because someone thought he knew more about Negav than he actually did. But just to humor Nyaha for a bit, here is a list of things, just technology related for now for now, that could be fleshed out.


  • How prevalent is Magitech in Negav?
  • Is Magitech only a recent development, like is it only the beginning of a potential industrial revolution?
  • What is the primary power source of Magitech?  Is it magic minerals like Ascarlin, or does it just use the rich and ambient magic in the air that has long since been forgotten by authors?
  • How much influence did the Vishmitals have over the technological development of the city, not counting military applications?  Did they have an influence at all?
  • How is the distribution of technology throughout the city like?
  • Does the Lower Tier have mainly technology closer to standard medieval European fantasy since most of it is just one giant market district for those kind of people?
  • What is this Great Foundry that's marked at the bottom of the map?  What does it do?  Is the area around it one big industrial district?  Is that where the city's Magitech is from?
  • What do they research at the Academy of Science?  Who founded that place?  When was it founded?
  • Do the smaller portals that connect the other districts together function as miniature version of the great gate, meaning they have set schedules of when and where they connect to? Are those found at specific places in Negav like they're glorified bus stations?
  • How common are Jet Bikes exactly? Are they primarily relegated to the military and possibly the police? If not, are they affordable to anyone other than the upper class?
  • Is the lack of long-range communication technology outside of the military and possibly the police a side-effect of not using telephone lines like we do to power the city? Are people researching solutions to that problem?


Satisfied?
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:59 am

Amaroq wrote:
Can somebody please break down what exactly the topic here is in a few short sentences? from what I read in the comments its about politics, sewage, underground negav and and and.... I think its too vast to be covered in one single topic since one can easily get lost here and I'd recommend splitting these things into several topics, maybe?

It's kind of like Shady said, but I figured, "why let a perfectly good thread go to waste?" And put forward the idea that we should use this thread to start compiling a list of things we'd like to know about Negav to help flesh it out later, similar to what the Felarya Fundamentals thread is doing. With that in mind, if there are any questions you have about Negav that you don't feel are adequately answered by information in the wiki, please state/ask/list them here! ^_^

Shady Knight wrote:
Satisfied?

Yes. Thank you. =^_^=
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:43 pm

Shady Knight wrote:
There is no topic.  This whole thread came to be because someone thought he knew more about Negav than he actually did.

Actually, since I don't visit the wiki much, I actually have less idea on how it works. I mostly skim that part, and please, don't say I think I know much. I am just thinking out loud.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:27 pm

Lockheed X-17 wrote:
Shady Knight wrote:
There is no topic.  This whole thread came to be because someone thought he knew more about Negav than he actually did.

Actually, since I don't visit the wiki much, I actually have less idea on how it works. I mostly skim that part, and please, don't say I think I know much. I am just thinking out loud.

Skimming will not give you enough info if you're new. ^^; Heck even we veterans who have been here since Felarya was only concept shouldn't but we do too often. If you want to add to the universe you must asorb the infromation availible then extropolate new info. It also helps to do a search using keywords on this forum and make sure we haven't talked the topic to death first. XD
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:23 am

Writing is very useful in the regards of knowing what is in the wiki, because you constantly have it open in one tab while writing in another window somewhere else. There's a lot of complex parts of Negav now, but there are things that are so oddly specific they just aren't too important to think about. We should be focusing less on things such as what goes into the creation of Skevols in the first place
hint:
 
, and more about broader social, economic, or other subjects.

The whole medical care was one such topic brought up ages ago because we wanted to truly examine the strengths and weaknesses of the soil. That sort of thing. The industrial parts of Negav aren't explored too much, and neither is how specifically their political system functions. All we know is that its a magiocracy, and little else about branches of government, how each one functions, that sort of thing. Though those are mainly because people have varying opinions...and Karbo is very nervous about the political system because he wants to get it just right, and has admitted in the past he isn't as savvy about politics as he wishes he was. So he is understandable reserved about such an issue.

Personally I've long been gunning for a detailed breakdown into how exactly the Mage Academy/Dome works (there's a basic one in the wiki which was put up I don't know how long ago), how that whole lifestyle actually functions, where they get their money/supplies from (is the mages academy privatized, public, or a mix of both in some way?)
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:03 am

Archmage_Bael wrote:
The industrial parts of Negav aren't explored too much, and neither is how specifically their political system functions. All we know is that its a magiocracy, and little else about branches of government, how each one functions, that sort of thing. Though those are mainly because people have varying opinions...and Karbo is very nervous about the political system because he wants to get it just right, and has admitted in the past he isn't as savvy about politics as he wishes he was. So he is understandable reserved about such an issue.

There's not going to be a political system in Negav, not without drastic changes to the setting at least. Over the years the setting has had things tacked onto what orginaly was a fetish world, mostly without any thought to the addiction's purposes. We've been going along with a "if this setting was real" approch, but as I said before, this simply doesn't work.
You're surposed to think about context (either characterwise or narrative) and THEN you dress it up with realism to make the idea work. you DON'T make realism the main princiable, I can assure you there has never been any other fictional setting that goes about in such a backwards way.

There's no way you can tack on a polictical system to this world without serious thought as to why it should be there, not without negative consequences at least. People will see polictical statements from such a thing regardless of what you do, intentional or not. It's better to actually think about what you're trying to say instead of just coming up with something that only works in the context the setting and having people misunderstand you and judging you in a real world context from a polictical stand point.

Unless of course you decide that there is no real point to the polictical system and play up the senselessness for humour.

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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:29 pm

That...wasn't entirely what I meant Dark. I'm well aware you cannot tack realism onto fantasy. As a good friend of mine once said "fantasy: if it makes sense, you're trying too hard." Or...was it "not hard enough"? Cant remember too clearly - anyway that quote's not the point.

The point is, knowing enough about politics and how government generally works in order to create a system that works for Negav. Great - they have a magiocracy. The mages rule and it is essentially an Oligarchy. That's a good start - but how to make the government deeper, to explore how it would truly work for Negav? Not how it would work for a [not so] fantasy version of earth where the US is secretly an oligarchy, but in Negav itself. Elements that work for normal RL wouldn't affect it the same way and I know this.

So as I was saying  - Karbo doesn't know enough about political systems and its inner-workings and how government functions in order to create a deeper understanding of how Negav's political system works. I can tell you, that as an oligarchy, Negav most certainly has a political system. All societies have one. Even a village with a hunter-gatherer society has a government, just on a way smaller scale. After all, government is literally just how a community, state, or nation organizes itself.

So we might want to figure out a system which is simple, yet effective, unique to Negav, so that Karbo can look at it and say "yes, that makes sense, its a good idea."

Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:41 pm

I don't have much to say regarding Negav for the moment, but I'd like to personally address Lockhead: it's your choice, but i suggest you change your text colour when writing, its really a painful read and i cant read more than 2 lines before giving up. dark red on dark font.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:09 pm

Krisexy26 wrote:
I don't have much to say regarding Negav for the moment, but I'd like to personally address Lockhead: it's your choice, but i suggest you change your text colour when writing, its really a painful read and i cant read more than 2 lines before giving up. dark red on dark font.

Agreed.

Most professional web designers will say bright on dark, or dark on bright. not bright on bright or dark on dark.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:25 am

Archmage_Bael wrote:


The point is, knowing enough about politics and how government generally works in order to create a system that works for Negav. Great - they have a magiocracy. The mages rule and it is essentially an Oligarchy. That's a good start - but how to make the government deeper, to explore how it would truly work for Negav?

You ignored the point I was making.

My point was the question of 'why does Negav's government need to be deeper?' Is there a reason for including such detail or is this yet again another needless tacked on detail due to some compulsive need to make everything believeable and a complete disregard for sense of tone for the setting?
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:50 pm

Well, what if you wanted to write a story about a character trying to make it as a politician in Negav? You'd need some fleshing out, and it'd feel more real.

(We also need legends and stories that could be told. Those always help a world feel nice and fleshed out, stories within stories. Its something JRR Tolkein understood, JK Rowling understood, and every major author pretty much)
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:22 am

Lets not mention the comics or rather the tomes talk about some overtones in the government, a concentrated point that people can or cannot look over. It's Already suggested there dark one. Now the thing i can see you being mad at is the relevance of accessibility of people actually using this in the setting, but that really depends on what kind of story your going for. If your going past the fetish point and trying to make a story or complex with a more...Influential tone, then yes knowing the government helps quite a lot with creative freedom. Ask the question of more like "If you could want to involve the government, what point are you exactly trying to make with them. What will you do to make a story or the setting more enthralling".

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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:13 am

well...if your sure that this is the route you want to take...

So, according to the wiki, The Magiocrats...

Like their name implies, they rule by the sheer power of their magic. That rule is definitely authoritarian, with the Magiocrats forming a small oligarchy sharing most of the executive power among themselves, leaving very little outside their hands. wrote:

The Negavian government is Authoritarian, In other words, unless you are born in the right aristocratic family or managed to become a well respected leader in military or corperate organziations, you arn't very likely to make it as a politician. Though in The Magiocrat's case, having great skills in magic certainly can increase the odds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism

http://www.ushistory.org/gov/13a.asp

Not sure what fleshing out can be done with the overall structure (Authoriterian governments by their nature are restrictive, they arn't that complicated.) So I guess what connections they have (the aristrocratic families, military and business ties) might be worth expanding on?
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:01 pm

There is one aspect of Negav's political system that's worth fleshing out and it's the aristocracy. A lot of articles around Negav mentions nobles and the rick folks, and the Higher Tier is pretty centered entirely on them. It would be worth fleshing out and answer some questions like, how does one become a noble? How did the existing ones get in their position? What kind of power do they hold in the city? It seems like such an important aspect of Negav at first, but has never once been elaborated on and just sort of exists in its form.
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PostSubject: Re: Negav; Fleshing it out   Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:27 pm

So what businesses does a Negavian businessman will preferably work with?
Would they sell merchandise from Felarya, or export rare treasures, or recruitment of the soon-to-be adventurers etc. ?
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