Elemental's weaknesses and strengths against others

Most magics, and in turn Elementals must have at least some strengths and weaknesses to other Elementals/magics. For example Water is strong against Fire. Elementals fueled by emotion souls should have an emotion that is opposite of it. (Due to the complexity of human emotions, they should be different types, but into a small group of categories)

Of course the category of Nature and Earth seems to be very alike in one another, making it seem that they are one in the same. Nature seems to construct out of the local Flora, that get nutrition from the soil. Earth is the very soil itself. The coexistence of the two make it seem that they are diverted from each other in some way.

The existence of a Lava Elemental, or molten rock, seems to be a mixture of an Fire and Earth Elemental. How the two are able to mix is a question, and other elemental mixtures can be brought to the table in theory

Magic Elementals seem to a imperfect mixture of all types, and from i heard there is a sort of Anti-magic one going around in the forms but i can not tell what they are exactly.

If someone could put down how to properly defend from all Elemental, (Such as Fire magic against a Nature Elemental) That would be a huge boon for the wiki

Hmm divided on this one. On one hand having a "definite Element Trifecta" would simply some things in Felarya but I don't honestly believe in a Pokemon Generation 1 type element system where one can beat another. I believe it works a bit like this: Fire is a hot element and thus is technically weak to the cold so ice and water should be able to beat it straight up right? Wrong. Wind powers flames. Wind + Flame = Dead Ice. However one should point out if Wind turned against Flame then wind would lose right? Well magic doesn't always need to be a straight up DBZ like energy blast sometimes you can change the texture of it for example use wind to make a Void that chokes off all the Fire's fuel. Or you could make gnarly Wind Mail to get asrobed by the Fire but the more energy it expends trying to suck up all the air the less energy it'll have to attack and eventually you'll deplete your Mana/Energy trying to stoke said Flame

There's also the method my character Oxhand uses: Energy + Element = Critical Hit. That theory states one can pour their own life or magic into an attack, or both if you're nuts, to increase the power and in that battle the one with the higher power rating takes the other. Fire with +90 Mana VS Ice with +89 = Fire Victorious But if you could put +5 more into your Ice? It'd put out the foes flames. PS Don't think that giants have more mana/energy simply because they are bigger either. I've seen Tinies who can fire Hadoken Blasts which pack the same power as a conventional fire arm and equally fairies who can't cast a basic fire ball spell to save their life. Finesse and training are what make a true mage. That is to say in this third theory:

Say you have a venerable Psi'ol Magiocrat VS a Lazy Fairy. Who do you think will win? The one with the natural born magic or the one who's been studying it for all of her life? Depends. Let's say the Fairy uses it's go to Shrink Ray and the mage casts a spell Guard Spell designed to repel the shrinking enchantments and render them null allowing the energy to impact the shield she's erected with a typical anime giant explosion leaving the fairy panicked she just over cooked her dinner. XD But then suddenly the mage uses a Illusion Dummy spell, which basically makes a mirror image of herself. Then she takes cover and arms a small storm magic spell waiting till the fairy delightfuly expresses how glad she is that the mage isn't harmed and then makes a quip about wanting to harm her herself. She bends over and ZAP! Several tiny but fast lightning bolts go through her wings. The young Psi'ol congratulates the fairy with a boring monologue before turning heel and leaving her to die saying it's kinder than any fate the fairy had planned for the Psi Mage.

See? That's a example of Strategic Magic, using what you have without going Super Saiyan and blowing everything up. I honestly think in power battles you should use this third style. All my favorite anime and manga do to some degree or another after all! XD But honestly I think in Felarya you should use whatever the situation requires to get the job done. There's some foes you can beat using basic spells and some that require gargantuan Hadoken blasts to be felled. But the smartest route is to avoid the fight. Quiet cowards live longer in Felarya than loud amnd brave fools after all.

I would quote you on that but it's so long. XD

It's true that wind and flame can work together and that fire usually beats wind (See Naruto for example) Of course wind can over power fire via a vacuum like spell. Also in some works Ice can be seen as an equal as Fire if it is seen as a sort of increased Water based magic.

However I am not talking about Advanced Combat, I'm talking about combat basics, or a sort of magic guide that lets new and upcoming adventures what spells to cast. Spells can be very flexible in what they can do in terms of strategy.

Although, the use of adding more energy to what is usually needed for a spell is a common use in some worlds...though there needs to be a limit. (such in lim x -> INF f(x) = y, where x = energy, be in magical, physical, or life, f(x) would be a sort of equation, and y would be a sort of multiple of the power increased)

I can tell you the basics real simple. If you see a pure elemental, run XD If you need the basics, it means an elemental is far more powerful than you can handle.

As for the elemental-based magic, I really dislike most systems. They are done by people who heavily underthink what elements are about. They just see fire and water and air, and think they can apply it to everything, such as metal, wood, lava and all things in between that cannot be explained by pure elements. Or they make connections where they shouldn't, such as fire and ice, air and void, light and darkness. It's admirable people have come up with so many things, but it's hard to see a system that makes good sense of them elements without falling into pitfalls in certain circumstances.

I already mentioned this elsewhere in the forum, in an offtopic thread, I think, but... we should take a break for a minute and go back to the origin. What were the Greek thinking when they thought about the elements? Why would they come up with four, and only four when there were so many things around that certainly seemed they didn't fall in any of them? I don't claim to know, but I can take a guess; they were most likely classifying things by behaviour. The earth, the water, the air, the fire. They are all perfect examples of a specific behaviour, and if you think about it a bit, you'll reach the same conclusion as me: the elements correspond exactly to the four states of matter that can happen naturally on Earth. When they thought of earth, they would most probably thinking about something solid, hard, heavy. Trees, metal, a house, a person. They are all very different, but they all clearly behave like earth, like a solid. When they thought of water, they probably looked at the sea or a river, a liquid extension with a very characteristic behaviour, and completely different from that of earth, but that they could also contain in a glass or a jar and would still exhibit that same behaviour, scaled down. Air, the invisible, intangible element, but something that could also blow or hit hard whenever it so desired. And finally fire. Who hasn't been attracted and fascinated by the peculiar nature of such a thing, spending so much as hours looking it sway and dance. The Greek knew that fire obviously wasn't air, so they gave it their own element, because it also had its own behaviour.

You may think that it is all just speculation, but there is also some evidence. There were many currents in Greek thinking trying to claim a superior element over all of them, and there was a particular one that struck me as genius, because it claimed it was air as opposed to fire or earth that most took at that time. I'm not too sure of the verb he used to explain the earth element, memory is elusive, but it went more or less like this: Air was the supreme element since the other ones came into being from air itself. Earth was frozen air, water was merely condensed air, and finally fire was diluted air. Simple and fair. With that, we have a person that explains the relationships of elements with one another not as being opposed, but modified versions of the others. Frozen air, condensed air, air and diluted air. How very much like the states of matter, solid, liquid, gas and plasma, isn't it? This is why I tend to dislike most systems where they take something that's not exactly named after an element, and make it a new element. "Wait, alcohol is not water. We should make an Alcohol Elemental!" Jeebus. Also note that the Greek didn't consider light an element. Elements are what Greeks considered made people, animals and all things, and light wasn't among them. They did came up with a fifth, astral element, aether, which was not supposed to be found on the world. But, as we all know, it came to be used as magical energy in many systems.

So, if you want an adventurer to be protected against all kinds of elementals, just give him a heat/cold-inducing beam and have him enjoy changing the elementals to other elements XD

Ilceren, while you make a good point, I believe that, due to Elementals can be housed in a idea, some drunk might as well be thinking of an Alcohol Elemental in Felarya right now. Laughing

As for the four elemental system, I seem to find that as a sort of 'root' (pun intended) of a tree that can sprout a number of elements depending on the structure of the spell

Elements need at least one opposite force that, when out of control, the opposite can come in and stop it. Water and Fire is pair, as well as Earth and Air.

Of course they were talking the physical things in our world, as light is not among them. Yet some of the elementals we have do not have any physical property that assigns them to any of the four.

There are, in some cases, a point where that is doesn't matter. Ice is a Water/Wind based spell, and Light and Darkness being separate from the four roots yet able to influence them. Such as Lightning being made of Air/Light

Also, a Heat/Cold Beam would to little against a Dark, Magic, or Lightning Elemental, as they are not based on physical manifestations. Also there is the one time an Elemental was made from emotions.

Huh, Ily! I used to think of The Four Elements as too basic but your comparison to the stars of being, as we know them on a quantum scale, is very logical and not at all boring as I thought a 4 stem balance would be. O.o As for why we have sub categories of Elements I think it more has to do with jRPGs and games that try to offer you more than four basic spells to build up. xD Can't argue as its something I love to tinker with new branches of Elements but not for science but for fun Razz

AC♢DC wrote:: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:26 am

Ilceren, while you make a good point, I believe that, due to Elementals can be housed in a idea, some drunk might as well be thinking of an Alcohol Elemental in Felarya right now.

As for the four elemental system, I seem to find that as a sort of 'root' (pun intended) of a tree that can sprout a number of elements depending on the structure of the spell

Elements need at least one opposite force that, when out of control, the opposite can come in and stop it. Water and Fire is pair, as well as Earth and Air.

Firstly as evil as Alcohol is a Booze Elemental must be made. THE LORDS OF CURLING DEMAND IT!!

Regarding getting fire from water? Roy Mustang. He did this to defeat one of the Sins by extracting hydrogen from the water around him. If one knows chemistry AND magic one can do allot of damage for minimal effort.

jedi-explorer wrote:

AC♢DC wrote:

Your naming me ACDC? Nice.

But still, using a Quantum scale might confuse new members. Though using H as a weapon seems very sci-fi, at least an efficient way. Only way to do that is an electric current... (someone may need to ask xkcd about this)

But Booze? Think we just went past the line from making a balanced world to making a crazy one. Although in one game Fire and Water make Alcohol...(dont know why)

But really, it makes more sense to start with the basic four, (five if we take lightning) and build from there.

ac2 wrote:: But still, using a Quantum scale might confuse new members. Though using H as a weapon seems very sci-fi, at least an efficient way. Only way to do that is an electric current... (someone may need to ask xkcd about this)

Quantum scale? We're just using basic physics. States of matter are now obvious to people, as are the elements of the periodic table. Ask people about why is the table distributed that way and it's then when people start to not know. But the other things are the basics. Sure, chemistry doesn't get well with fantasy... until we consider alchemy. And that's what Fullmetal Alchemist got right, people there use magical transmutation, but apply real physics and chemistry elements to their constructs.

But really, what I was wanting to do with my reasoning in the previous post was to try widen people's vision about magic. People have this nasty habit of taking things literally, when magic is precisely the least literal thing in existence! Why would you read "Earth element" and assume it only means controlling soil? It's magic, it can have a good number of meanings. I know we do it for simplicity's sake, but please... Don't you also consider rocks part of earth? And ice part of water? And some even lightning part of air? Aren't we broadening the meaning of the four basic elements already? Besides, why do people make up new elements? It's simply because there are things that don't fit in the system. There's a lava elemental because lava is molten rock, it's simultaneously fire element and earth element. So? The easy way out is creating a new element, because why not. Doesn't fit, it means it must be a new element... Just like you did down here:

ac2 wrote:: But really, it makes more sense to start with the basic four, (five if we take lightning) and build from there.

Yeah, new element, lightning. Why not fit it in air? Because it doesn't really fit, right? If we counted everything that doesn't fit in the literal magic elemental system, we'd end up with as many elements as the periodic table, if not more.

There are people that go even more literally about elements, where a water mage can control the specific part of his element in any and all things. They would say that, since our bodies are made out of water in a big percentage, they would be able to control that water and suck it out of anyone's body for an efficient kill. That's a very literal and chemistry-based view.

I'm all for categorizing things and I believe it would all be better if the four (I would say five, the fifth being Magic itself, or Aether, if you prefer) elements were figurative categories under which magical talents are classified. For example, I have a Naga with certain powers I like to call "flesh magic" (people I RP with tend to call it "blood magic" since blood is what she normally uses to attack), which involve bodily manipulation (flesh, bones, internal organs) and extensive control over biological and related material (such as blood, bile and other fluids or the ability to alter or nullify the five senses, pain and pleasure). Where would I place that beast of a magic subtype? I would doubtlessly place it under Water, because water is the base of life and as such, all magics that involve the alteration of living things would go there. Flesh magic, suggestion magic, etc. This is what I mean with "expanding people's views" from that narrow vision that Water has to be water and can't be anything else. Figurative meanings, people, that's what magic is all about!

Ilceren wrote:: Besides, why do people make up new elements? It's simply because there are things that don't fit in the system. There's a lava elemental because lava is molten rock, it's simultaneously fire element and earth element. So? The easy way out is creating a new element, because why not.

I agree that new elements can be made via combining other elements, but what really got my interest is what you said here:

Ilceren wrote:: I have a Naga with certain powers I like to call "flesh magic"... Where would I place that beast of a magic subtype? I would doubtlessly place it under Water, because water is the base of life and as such, all magics that involve the alteration of living things would go there.

This is why i was talking about the four base elements the root of a tree. Water can make way for your Blood, Earth can branch to Nature or Metal, and the list can go on. Lightning might have to give way to lightning if we do it like this though...but i think we are getting off topic from the post subject

Is there some sort of type system? Does Fire beat Water as easily as Air beats Earth? Does Light and Dark beat each other? Is Aether, pure magic, all four of the base elements? If so, should there be one that is not?

There has to be a sort of balance to the system in order for no one type can gain control. Like is a horde of Lightning elemental started to attack human settlement, what magic would you do?

ac2 wrote:: There has to be a sort of balance to the system in order for no one type can gain control.

I don't think there has to be some sort of balance...

iZyren wrote:

ac2 wrote:: There has to be a sort of balance to the system in order for no one type can gain control.

I don't think there has to be some sort of balance...

Oh? Can you explain? Everyone's opinion is valid.

So if a bunch of lightning elementals were to attack a village...
the most logical magic to use would be earth since it tends to nullify lightning, however whether it works or not depends entierly on the strength of the spells and the elementals.
sure you may think that it is a good idea to make a system of it to make it easier for the people.
however not everything is able to fit in that system and will be called irregularities.
it's a bit like society today, not everyone is able to fit in it and are shunned out.

the balance you talk about would it be there to make it easy?
because living in felarya is not easy and isn't supposed to be either.

(my arguments might not make much sense since i'm rarely ever posting anything here.)

iZyren wrote:: (my arguments might not make much sense since i'm rarely ever posting anything here.)

Bit vague...but i see the point you are trying to make.

So, for any new comments, should we have a balanced based magic system (Like Chakra from Naruto for example) or a non-balanced based magic system? (Magic in Fairy Tail)

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