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Lockheed X-17
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PostSubject: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Sat May 21, 2016 12:57 am

I wonder, if there are mages there adept at magic, would it be a threat to Negavian Magiocracy? Would Negavian government also ban it's practice? And how would it affect the Isolon Eyes?
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Sat May 21, 2016 2:15 am

You may want to explain what you mean a bit more. It's somewhat discernible from the title of the topic, but not from your first post. I advise you to edit it so that people see it in the first one, instead of having to scroll down.

Also, moved to General Discussion.

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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Sat May 21, 2016 10:16 am

Lockeed wrote:
I wonder, if there are mages there adept at magic, would it be a threat to Negavian Magiocracy? Would Negavian government also ban it's practice? And how would it affect the Isolon Eyes?


If you are speaking of Rogue Magic and Forbiden Practices? Are you asking if banning certain magics would affect the eye? A foolish question, my lad. While the Eye's inner workings are classified at the very highest level we can surmmize it's functionality is so sophisiticated it wouldn't be affected by banning certain magical practices. After all technically Teleportation is Taboo in Negav and if there is a title of "Rogue Mage" in the language then it implies that there are many other magics either discouraged or otherwise 'forbiden'

This might be a fine opportunity to bring up the fact Magic in Felarya is, I think anyway, not as wild and untamed as we may think...Well at least not in a perfectly sane, Totalitarian civilized society as we have in Negav. Magic is more reigned in the city than outside it. For example, while a few slip through the cracks, most mages are relagated to only using certain classes of spells inside the city. For example you wouldn't want some drunken mage to suddenly start casting a spell of Earth Shaking and bring the whole city down would you? Hence why civilians only have access to a certain amount of spells and magical knowledge. This is most commonly done through education. The Isolon Academy for example does offer basic cheap courses but the likilhood of you learning battle magic on a budge? Slim to none. And if you were to sign up for battle magic classes or high arcane arts? You would be 'recruited' into the Battle Mages where we can monitor and keep a watchful eye on your progress. You see this system ensures magic is carefully controlled and safely applied for the benefit of the entire Magiocracy as well as citizens Negav of course.

I would like to point out sometimes the criminal element of Negav disseminates this knowledge or uses it for it's own evil gain. But thankfully the leaders of Negav are far removed from these deviants and committed to eradicating their transgressions for your safety. Remember trust the Council. We know what's best. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Sat May 21, 2016 11:45 am

Quote :
technically Teleportation is Taboo in Negav

Um, where does it say that? No, seriously, point me to where it says that, cause I can't find it anywhere. I'm thinking you're just making an assumption here. In fact, your whole post is one big assumption, like you think you know more than you really do.

What's really stopping people from learning certain spells? Well, for starters, aptitude is a factor. Not everyone is gonna be good at picking up magic the same way not everyone is gonna be good at math, and others probably have no interest. Income is also a factor. You're paying for college-level tuition here. When has that ever been cheap enough that everyone could be able to afford it? Also, what of the other major aspect of Negav? You know, people who are not from Negav and thus not subject to the same laws governing magic you seem to believe exist. It's not like they can unlearn that Earth Shake spell and then learn it back again when it's convenient like it's a video game.

Oh, and "after you take battle magic class, you'll be 'recruited'" just cracks me up. You know why you were recruited after you learned battle magic? Because you just enlisted in the army. You've already been recruited before the classes started. In fact, those classes are you going through boot camp. And again, where does it say that taking advanced classes means that you automatically get drafted? You're just making assumptions here.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Sun May 22, 2016 1:42 pm

Shady Knight wrote:
Quote :
technically Teleportation is Taboo in Negav
Um, where does it say that?  No, seriously, point me to where it says that, cause I can't find it anywhere.  I'm thinking you're just making an assumption here.  In fact, your whole post is one big assumption, like you think you know more than you really do.

*Reads through every 'cannon' chapter of the manga*....Darn I thought it said something there. MMn may have been a fan theory. Hard to tell. Reading Alastazia's bio didn't reveal anything either so maybe it was. Fanon and cannon seem to mix too freely these days. -.-; Wait could it have been on the rumor board? Ah well either way we know Portals and Gates are regulated. I mean you can't just go out and buy one at the local bazaar. Portals and Gates are the main ways you get offworld commerce right? You wouldn't just want anybody to get ahold of the means to make it. Not to say it doesn't exist, after all Fairies are less careful with their literature than most human cultures.

Some Sagolian texts may exist but the means to translate that would be found in Negav and we know Lesona has TWO spy networks (Saidakin and Zil's tinies) so is it not logical to assume other magics are controlled at least to a degree? For example in my own cannon Mobius' brother Luthen wanted to use Physical Time Travel Magic and I assummed it would be illegal or at least require a thorough monitoring from the government since it's ramifications could be more than just a blown up lab or leveing the city, you could cause it to cease to exist! assumption? Yes. Logical? Yes. I think that's why the Council is in place. Yes they keep the Vishies from taking over but their primary goal I believe is to sanction which types of magic should be practiced.

Shady wrote:
Oh, and "after you take battle magic class, you'll be 'recruited'" just cracks me up. You know why you were recruited after you learned battle magic? Because you just enlisted in the army. You've already been recruited before the classes started. In fact, those classes are you going through boot camp. And again, where does it say that taking advanced classes means that you automatically get drafted?

XD Ah I did get a little carried away there. I was depressed and got into character too much as a sagely 'ol instructor. But I believe I didn't make any bad or illogical points.

Well I was figuring, based on your own statement that anybody can learn a spell of Earth Shaking or such, you would try and keep it so that mostly only Battle Mages had access to this spell? Or would you allow just anybody potentially obtain dangerous city endangering it with wild magic running rampant. That's why, yes I assume,that the Psi'ol encourage one to join the ranks of the battles. Maybe not through direct conscription. More though offering grants or bribing eager young mages by filling their heads full of heroic day dreams where they can call themselves 'Nagaslayer' and gain the respect of the city, keep their family safe and other political non-sense.

Again all assuptions but in Felarya what else do we have to go on till Karbo says 'No. This is a good idea ,but this *insert Author quote here* is canon."?
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Sun May 22, 2016 3:03 pm

OP's question:

No, the existence of mages that are adept at magic should be no threat to the magiocrats. In fact, that should be their very foundation: they are themselves mages that are adept at magic. If the magiocrats banned magic... how would they rule?

In general it is assumed that magic does not interact with other magic, except when otherwise noted. No matter what happens, the eye will work fine, unless it doesn't.

======

There's been some discussion regarding teleportation and how we should be making it impossible. I don't really care for it.

Usually, Shady, Jedi, we've assumed wizards that could make the city implode in cow farts would be incompatible with the canon and left it at that. It's one thing to say a wizard has supernatural powers. It's another to say that any and every wizard should be able to turn Negav into a black hole, or that their number is significant enough to warrant looking at them all as an existential risk to the city. Any wizard powerful enough to blow up the city and crazy enough to do so would, I expect, barring plot, out themselves entirely on their own.

The Gate, on the other hand, Jedi, it's generally assumed that not everyone can make those. It's assumed it took the Magiocrats absolute gobs of well-trained man-hours to make them work. Normal portals tho... current canon says that wizards CAN make portals.

Da Wiki wrote:
Felarya however, this type of magic is much more common and, admittedly, easier to use due to the world being a crossroads between dimensions and dimensionally unstable, thus, much more malleable. An entire class of spellcasters actually specialize in dimensional magic. While it remains a hard and dangerous discipline, portal-crafting in Felarya is a basic task for any competent dimensional mage.

It's a hard and dangerous discipline, but a basic task for any competent mage. Yes, I know it seems to contradict itself- I try to read it as "Some dimensional mages do it, and they find it to be a basic task. The risk makes most focus their time into subjects less likely to blow up in their faces and, if hard-pressed, will go to a tried-and-true portal maker rather than take their chances."

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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Sun May 22, 2016 5:44 pm

To everyone addressing OP, my guess from the title of this thread, combined with his mention of it being dangerous to the Eye, is that he meant to ask those questions about mages that could silence or completely disable magic. I personally don't think that should be something that magic should do. Silencing maybe, when applied to people instead of spells, but magic that disables magic seems contradictory to me. I do think that anti-magic should exist, but not as a part of the magical system, but completely unrelated to it.

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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Thu May 26, 2016 11:50 pm

I was refering to a powerful magic silence that affects the Isolon Eyes. If these "anti-mages" exists, wouldn't they stir quite a lot trouble with those who are in power and those who have the power. For example, anti-mage just disabled a naga from casting spells. In some instances, anti-magic or silencing is a part of magic, like Illidan Stormragr fought and hunted demons with demon magic.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Fri May 27, 2016 5:06 am

Not really. The Isolon Eye is protected with a shitload of defenses and security for a reason. Sure, a lot of it is magic based, but you know what isn't magic-based? Soldiers. Specifically, soldiers with guns. Anti-magic ain't gonna stop a salvo of bullets coming at your face at the speed of sound. Also, I severely doubt anti-magic would bother nagas much, what with being bigger and physically stronger than an average human in a lot of areas.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Fri May 27, 2016 4:38 pm

Lockheed X-17 wrote:
I was refering to a powerful magic silence that affects the Isolon Eyes. If these "anti-mages" exists, wouldn't they stir quite a lot trouble with those who are in power and those who have the power.

We have no Anti-Mages. Do you mean the Unblessed? They aren't even a 100% approve idea but they are as close to anti-magic type sect I could think of. Actually calling them a sect is probably being generous since TK stated it's a random fluke. Can neither be prevented.

Shady wrote:
The Isolon Eye is protected with a shitload of defenses and security for a reason.

Not to mention three top level battle mages are posted there I think I read once. They are rotated out but always with equal or better ones and that's before you even get inside. We also have to think Lesona is the current guardian of it more or less so I'm sure there's deadly spring loaded curses or dark magics that only get more vicious the further you make it then? The 'Eye' is a massive jewel of unknown substance created by three of Felarya's most powerful mages. To say you're taking on a suicide mission is an understatement and for what? To hand Negav to the predators? How long do you think your partnership will last. XD About lunch time I'd say.

Now Nekomura's Eye? Sure you could smash that pretty easily but again, why would you want to hurt nekos who never did anything to you only to feed predators and annoy Magiocrats by flooding the city with Neko refugees? XD And honestly a mini Eye is much easier to rebuild than the huge one at the top of Negav.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Fri May 27, 2016 9:27 pm

Shady Knight wrote:
I severely doubt anti-magic would bother nagas much, what with being bigger and physically stronger than an average human in a lot of areas.

Unless magic is the only thing holding a 1400-ton naga together in the first place. Take away the magic and the naga, um, melts.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Sat May 28, 2016 5:12 am

No, not really. I've said it again and again, but giant creatures are a staple of fantasy, and nobody has ever questioned them in any other settings. What makes this one so special that it needs to be questioned, when all the other ones get a free pass?

Besides, even a small naga is more than a match for a human in physical combat. Their long tail is basically a huge mass of muscles, it can easily constrict a human to death without problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Sat May 28, 2016 8:51 am

If there was a mage that could turn off the Isolon Eye, I'm pretty sure they would simply not be allowed anywhere near the Isolon Eye unless they had something important to do. Works for people who carry explosives.

As for people who have the means and the intention to do damage to the Eye, then try to do so and can't be stopped easily because of magic stopping powers, well, that's what burly guys with big sticks are for. If they are burlier and have more sticks, that's what guns are for. If they're immune to guns for whatever reason, that's what locked doors were invented for.

If you want to ask "what if in spite of everything someone stops the Eye from working with their powers", Negav's been handling itself pretty well pre-eye, and has other ways of keeping predators out. Moats, walls, cannons. Now if you want to ask what if everything fails, and then everything else fails too, if you add enough ifs and buts, then eventually you'll hit a point where you can say "and then everybody ded".

It just doesn't make for the best argument.

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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Sat May 28, 2016 6:53 pm

I feel like one thing that hasn't yet been addressed is the strength of the anti-magic. I doubt that Felaryan magic has an outright "no magic" spell that doesn't have its own limits. Really, any anti-magic effect is going to have a maximum strength that it can exert to prevent magic from working; if, for example, it interferes with the flow of mana, too powerful a mana flow will either allow some through, allow all of it through, or outright break the anti-magic effect, depending on the structure. If you don't mind me using D&D as an example, the ubiquitous dispel magic spell is only as strong as the caster; trying to dispel something a better caster cast is hard, whereas dispelling something cast by a weaker caster is easier. The specifics in Felarya are different, but whatever method you use to stop magic is going to have a limit as to how much magic it can stop.

As for what this means for the Isolon Eye: that thing is a giant magical artifact of no small amount of power, the creation of some of the most skilled mages ever to live in Felarya. I doubt there's any one mage who could cast an anti-magic spell strong enough to more than mildly inconvenience it.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Sun May 29, 2016 1:57 am

Shady Knight wrote:
Besides, even a small naga is more than a match for a human in physical combat.  Their long tail is basically a huge mass of muscles, it can easily constrict a human to death without problem.

Unless if the mage wasn't alone. Mages aren't very powerful physically(there are a few exceptions) and would likely to be in a group.

Gamma wrote:
I doubt there's any one mage who could cast an anti-magic spell strong enough to more than mildly inconvenience it.

Unless they are large in numbers and are skilled in their craft... Would a hundred skilled anti-mages be capable of shutting down Negav?

Plus, Gamma, there are other forms of anti-magic other than dispel, right? They probably would have learned various other ways, such as the victim not being able to cast any spell after casting a spell, or draining them of magic. Then again, I am just speculating.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Sun May 29, 2016 8:36 am

Lockheed X-17 wrote:
Gamma wrote:
I doubt there's any one mage who could cast an anti-magic spell strong enough to more than mildly inconvenience it.

Unless they are large in numbers and are skilled in their craft... Would a hundred skilled anti-mages be capable of shutting down Negav?

Plus, Gamma, there are other forms of anti-magic other than dispel, right? They probably would have learned various other ways, such as the victim not being able to cast any spell after casting a spell, or draining them of magic. Then again, I am just speculating.

Oh, I'm sure there are multiple forms of anti-magic.  Just to list a few:

  • Active interference with a specific spell, either as it's cast (counterspell) or on a persistent spell after it's been cast (dispel) to prevent or reverse the spell's effects
  • Interference with mana manipulation in an area (null field) or on a specific person or object (silence) to prevent the spell being cast in the first place
  • Draining available mana in an area, person, or object (drain) to remove the resources needed to cast the spell in the first place


All of these would have limits.  Dispelling and counterspelling are generally limited by a direct contest of skill between the two mages.  Null and silence can be overcome either through volume or possibly ablative anti-null barrier spells; the latter can also work on a drain, feeding the drain mana but stopping it from getting inside the barrier while it lasts.  Alternatively, drain can be overcome by sheer volume.

As for numbers...a hundred skilled anti-mages might be capable of shutting down the Isolon Eye, assuming they've got the time for a giant ritual anti-magic collaborative spell.  Of course, the Psi'ol might take issue with that.  Negav itself, though?  Way too large.  You'd need a literal army (on top of the army you'd need to deal with the mundane threat of the Isolon Fist and the technological threat of VISA) to pull it off.


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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Sun May 29, 2016 9:11 pm

Lockhead wrote:
Unless they are large in numbers and are skilled in their craft... Would a hundred skilled anti-mages be capable of shutting down Negav?

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! A hundred magesm even practicing the same art, versus the whole of Negav?? My money is on Negav. Firstly Negav is big, like bigger than several Manhattans big, and has several barracks full of battle mages and killer normal commandos but then if the city were in danger do you think the citizens, magical and non, are just going to lay down be steam rolled? In a city whom's active population is like 80% adventurers and mercenaries? Nah. Even if you can cast anti-magic spells you ain't gonna stop hundreds of machettes, bullets and even the odd rocket from crazy people like Tamlin who carry around a rocket launcher.


Gamma wrote:
Sat May 28, 2016 9:53 pm
I feel like one thing that hasn't yet been addressed is the strength of the anti-magic. I doubt that Felaryan magic has an outright "no magic" spell that doesn't have its own limits. Really, any anti-magic effect is going to have a maximum strength that it can exert to prevent magic from working; if, for example, it interferes with the flow of mana, too powerful a mana flow will either allow some through, allow all of it through, or outright break the anti-magic effect, depending on the structure. If you don't mind me using D&D as an example, the ubiquitous dispel magic spell is only as strong as the caster; trying to dispel something a better caster cast is hard, whereas dispelling something cast by a weaker caster is easier.

This is a excellent way to resolve a magical duel against two super mages who are both casting "Omega Spear of Doom" at once and not have "Unstoppable Force VS Unmovable Object Stalemate". Thus I believe if you're gonna try and take down Negav's mage community you have to apply some Tsun Zhu to the the mix and beat them before you ever have to utter a word or flick a finger.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:11 am

When I said shutting down, I meant their magic. Sure, a hundred anti-mages can't defeat a thousand soldiers carrying futuristic weapons. I would like to know if they are capable of bringing down an Isolon Eye.

Yes, they are incapable of defeating an army that doesn't use magic. What if there are factions that defend them? And would they even be allowed to live in Negav in the first place? There are multiple possibilities in which they could be deployed. But they would be smart enough to not be left undefended in the first place.

Talking about defense though, I think that a hundred anti-mages would be capable of defending themselves from magic. But then there are Vishmitals...
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:04 pm

Lockheed X-17 wrote:
Talking about defense though, I think that a hundred anti-mages would be capable of defending themselves from magic.
Depends how they go about it. Could a force of a hundred antimages create a decently large (dozens of meters in diameter) zone in which all but the most powerful magic fails? Sure. Then half a dozen geomancers drop rocks on them from high up–rocks fall, all the antimages die. And, like I said before, if they want to take out the Eye, it's going to take quite a lot; a hundred antimages might do it, but not if they also have to keep themselves defended from magic. You'd need another hundred to protect the hundred you already have working on the Eye. And then, as has been brought up by everyone, the Isolon Fist marches in and guns them all down.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:10 am

Ok then, let's make it three hundred antimages and hundreds of warriors attacking Negav, would it actually work? Then again, I can't pinpoint a place or faction which would wage war against Negav (aside from predators, but the antimages need to shut down the Isolon Eye first, or a rebellion), and the soldiers and other antimages either attacking or defending.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Disabling/Silencing   Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:10 am

Lockheed X-17 wrote:
Ok then, let's make it three hundred antimages and hundreds of warriors attacking Negav, would it actually work? Then again, I can't pinpoint a place or faction which would wage war against Negav (aside from predators, but the antimages need to shut down the Isolon Eye first, or a rebellion), and the soldiers and other antimages either attacking or defending.

Well it depends. If the goal is to posess the Eye rather than destroy it then the Vishie extremists might want to fund such a campaign. Thought I don't know where you'd get three hundred trained Unbeless/Anti Mages in all honestly. Especially well trained ones. Truthfully a military campaign against Negav is suicide though if you destroy the Eye. One's goal should be capturing it. Though it's not a Deathstar one should consider. If you could wrest the Deathstar from the Emperor and Vader you could operate it. But the Eye is a mysterious Super Artifact. Only it's caretakers and creators know anything about it.
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