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GideonChan
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PostSubject: Moral Premise   Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:15 pm

Does Felarya have any moral premises, or is it just eat or be eaten. I've seen many debates concerning Felarya and morality, and most people debating believe the predators are good because their moral standards are different, and the humans are usually doing it out of greed. In Felarya, humans usually come from many different worlds other than earth - so they could have moral standards differing from ours as well. As soon as a predator eats a lot of human-sized species, nobody bats an eye. But when anyone smaller than a predator dares to fight back, they denounce the fanfiction as "wish fulfillment."
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PostSubject: Re: Moral Premise   Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:00 pm

Welcome to the forum, GideonChan!

GideonChan wrote:
Does Felarya have any moral premises, or is it just eat or be eaten. I've seen many debates concerning Felarya and morality, and most people debating believe the predators are good because their moral standards are different, and the humans are usually doing it out of greed.
Felarya does not truly take a stance on morality as a setting, at least where it concerns predation. There are other things it takes a stance on: there is a Heaven and a Hell in the setting, which at least implies some sort of universal good/evil. We know cruel emperors go to Hell... I guess there's that, at least.

That doesn't make the predators good, of course. I mean, if Crisis died and went to Hell, I'd be fine with it. It's not like there'll be less vore if the preds go to hell, so it doesn't run counter to the purpose of the setting. Given she's friends with Mennysan, I don't think it'd be right if death did them part either!

GideonChan wrote:
In Felarya, humans usually come from many different worlds other than earth - so they could have moral standards differing from ours as well.
Indeed. Nonetheless, Felarya is not passing judgement on humans. It is simply a place where people their size get nommed lots, whether humans, nekos, or giant chicken. Their morality should ideally not factor into whether they get eaten or not (unless they consider stealth to be an unconceivable sin).

GideonChan wrote:
As soon as a predator eats a lot of human-sized species, nobody bats an eye. But when anyone smaller than a predator dares to fight back, they denounce the fanfiction as "wish fulfillment."
Fighting back against predators can be wish fulfillment, or a lot of other things. It's generally seen as on bad taste, because you can own a giant critter in any setting, and it runs counter to the THEMES of Felarya, which are not related to morality; they are, also, not contradicted by a predator eating a lot of human-sized species. Making a story that contains a guy fighting back against predators WITHOUT making it a story about how the world now revolves around this guy should let you off the hook.

Generally, characters capable of subverting power dynamics a setting is built on are seen as wish fulfillment anywhere. Given the predators' very role as predators depends on the power dynamics, this would be expected to go twice in Felarya, as the draw of the setting is at least supposed to be the risk of vore.

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PostSubject: Re: Moral Premise   Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:32 pm

Stabs wrote:

GideonChan wrote:
Does Felarya have any moral premises, or is it just eat or be eaten. I've seen many debates concerning Felarya and morality, and most people debating believe the predators are good because their moral standards are different, and the humans are usually doing it out of greed.
Felarya does not truly take a stance on morality as a setting, at least where it concerns predation. There are other things it takes a stance on: there is a Heaven and a Hell in the setting, which at least implies some sort of universal good/evil. We know cruel emperors go to Hell... I guess there's that, at least.

Well even then the way "good and evil" functions is a little bit different in relation to the afterlife. Just because you're evil doesn't mean you'll go to hell, just like being good doesn't guarantee "heaven". The general idea being that the actions you take "colors" your soul to be more pure or more tainted, which influences how your soul drifts through the "river" of the afterlife - so to speak. A succubus could still potentially manage to fetch someone who's a goodie-two-shoes to escort them to hell instead of heaven, its just really uncommon.

-Actually I cant remember if that idea was ever canonized. I remember Stabs and Karbo talking about it, and Karbo expressed great interest in the idea. I don't think the actual soul drift has been mentioned in the Afterlife page. Heaven and Hell use "energies" in their canonical description, which seem to imply a few things.

Anyway, predators eating people is seen as neither good nor evil in the official sense. The most direct way to put it is "Felarya is a world where anything will eat anything. Whether you're an intelligent being or not plays no role into whether eating is good or evil." We all need to eat to survive, and intelligence is a defense mechanism just as claws or fangs are. Intelligence has just proved to be more effective a mechanism in our own world. There may be another world in our real-life galaxy where the sapient creatures all got eaten because it wasn't a big enough advantage.

Stabs wrote:

GideonChan wrote:
As soon as a predator eats a lot of human-sized species, nobody bats an eye. But when anyone smaller than a predator dares to fight back, they denounce the fanfiction as "wish fulfillment."
Fighting back against predators can be wish fulfillment, or a lot of other things. It's generally seen as on bad taste, because you can own a giant critter in any setting, and it runs counter to the THEMES of Felarya, which are not related to morality; they are, also, not contradicted by a predator eating a lot of human-sized species. Making a story that contains a guy fighting back against predators WITHOUT making it a story about how the world now revolves around this guy should let you off the hook.

Generally, characters capable of subverting power dynamics a setting is built on are seen as wish fulfillment anywhere. Given the predators' very role as predators depends on the power dynamics, this would be expected to go twice in Felarya, as the draw of the setting is at least supposed to be the risk of vore.

Yeah basically. Except that certain people are better at fighting than others, the ability to fight and defeat a predator makes a person seem mary-sue ish because the message that sends is you enjoy your character being able to overcome such a massive handicap. The fact is some creature that is 20 times your size is not a creature you want to engage in a fight unless there is literally no other option. Even then, there are some people who indeed can overcome such a handicap. With the proper preparations, equipment, training, etc, just as a giant predator could possibly beat a Leviathan Mermaid or a Hydra Tree with enough preparations, equipment, training, etc. Its possible, yes - but that doesn't mean it should be employed just because you think it'd be cool. If your character could do that, you'd inhibit the ability for that character to have an effective storyline - as it would eliminate the logical inclusion for most challenges or conflicts your character might run into. Finding an effective storyline for such a powerful character makes using such a powerhouse to not be worth it.

That's my views and opinions here, at least.
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PostSubject: Re: Moral Premise   Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:02 pm

Archmage_Bael wrote:
Well even then the way "good and evil" functions is a little bit different in relation to the afterlife. Just because you're evil doesn't mean you'll go to hell, just like being good doesn't guarantee "heaven". The general idea being that the actions you take "colors" your soul to be more pure or more tainted, which influences how your soul drifts through the "river" of the afterlife - so to speak. A succubus could still potentially manage to fetch someone who's a goodie-two-shoes to escort them to hell instead of heaven, its just really uncommon.

-Actually I cant remember if that idea was ever canonized. I remember Stabs and Karbo talking about it, and Karbo expressed great interest in the idea. I don't think the actual soul drift has been mentioned in the Afterlife page. Heaven and Hell use "energies" in their canonical description, which seem to imply a few things.
I don't think anything was ever done with it. Karbo liked it, but it never actually got into the wiki, so all we got are the vore comics to draw from. The people in the vore comics, people like them end up going to Hell in the Felarya-verse.

Archmage_Bael wrote:
We all need to eat to survive, and intelligence is a defense mechanism just as claws or fangs are. Intelligence has just proved to be more effective a mechanism in our own world. There may be another world in our real-life galaxy where the sapient creatures all got eaten because it wasn't a big enough advantage.
I'll admit to taking this out of context, but watch it with the tenses, it makes you sound like you're making a philosophical IRL statement. You know as well as I can how those can spiral out of control.

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PostSubject: Re: Moral Premise   Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:40 pm

That weird guy named Stabs wrote:
Archmage_Bael wrote:
We all need to eat to survive, and intelligence is a defense mechanism just as claws or fangs are. Intelligence has just proved to be more effective a mechanism in our own world. There may be another world in our real-life galaxy where the sapient creatures all got eaten because it wasn't a big enough advantage.
I'll admit to taking this out of context, but watch it with the tenses, it makes you sound like you're making a philosophical IRL statement. You know as well as I can how those can spiral out of control.

Good point.
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PostSubject: Re: Moral Premise   Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:01 am

Bael wrote:
Well even then the way "good and evil" functions is a little bit different in relation to the afterlife. Just because you're evil doesn't mean you'll go to hell, just like being good doesn't guarantee "heaven". The general idea being that the actions you take "colors" your soul to be more pure or more tainted, which influences how your soul drifts through the "river" of the afterlife - so to speak. A succubus could still potentially manage to fetch someone who's a goodie-two-shoes to escort them to hell instead of heaven, its just really uncommon.

Fascinating! I don't remember reading that but I do rather like that concept. Fits with Felarya's wild and unpredictable nature really well though that a good person can be snatched up in mid transition by a succbus or an evil wizard could find themselves in heaven thinking they've gotten off scott free only to meet a purifier angel XD

As for the subject of morals I believe it's never a wise idea t bring them into something you're going to enjoy much. They tend to cloud your perspective and cause you to treat this all as too real. For some that simply means less enjoyment but I've been ont he receiving end of people wanting to moralize fetish and going too far.....to the point of nearly receiving a bomb in the mail. ^^; Besides Felarya's moral code is impossible to judge on macro scope like any universe except maybe GoT or Warhammer 40K since both pretty much state outright there are no 'good guys' and 'justice' is wrought in blood by the strongest or the cleverest. Felarya isn't dissimilar but it has more optimism in places depending on what you take as canon, IE the mangas as cannon and everythign Karbo wrote or do you subscribe to the fact Felarya is a collection of EVERYONE'S thoughts and ideas? Either way you really never can have a totally satisfactory answer and oddly? I like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Moral Premise   Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:47 am

tired of this shit

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PostSubject: Re: Moral Premise   Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:04 pm

Stabs wrote:

GideonChan wrote:
As soon as a predator eats a lot of human-sized species, nobody bats an eye. But when anyone smaller than a predator dares to fight back, they denounce the fanfiction as "wish fulfillment."
Fighting back against predators can be wish fulfillment, or a lot of other things. It's generally seen as on bad taste, because you can own a giant critter in any setting, and it runs counter to the THEMES of Felarya, which are not related to morality; they are, also, not contradicted by a predator eating a lot of human-sized species. Making a story that contains a guy fighting back against predators WITHOUT making it a story about how the world now revolves around this guy should let you off the hook.

Generally, characters capable of subverting power dynamics a setting is built on are seen as wish fulfillment anywhere. Given the predators' very role as predators depends on the power dynamics, this would be expected to go twice in Felarya, as the draw of the setting is at least supposed to be the risk of vore.

Felarya alone is also wish fulfillment for voraphiles. Writing a different type of wish fulfillment within a setting which is also wish fulfillment isn't exactly bad taste.
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PostSubject: Re: Moral Premise   Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:46 pm

GideonChan wrote:
Stabs wrote:

Fighting back against predators can be wish fulfillment, or a lot of other things. It's generally seen as on bad taste, because you can own a giant critter in any setting, and it runs counter to the THEMES of Felarya, which are not related to morality; they are, also, not contradicted by a predator eating a lot of human-sized species. Making a story that contains a guy fighting back against predators WITHOUT making it a story about how the world now revolves around this guy should let you off the hook.

Generally, characters capable of subverting power dynamics a setting is built on are seen as wish fulfillment anywhere. Given the predators' very role as predators depends on the power dynamics, this would be expected to go twice in Felarya, as the draw of the setting is at least supposed to be the risk of vore.

Felarya alone is also wish fulfillment for voraphiles. Writing a different type of wish fulfillment within a setting which is also wish fulfillment isn't exactly bad taste.

Right, but Felarya is developed enough to be treated as a mature world though, with many developed aspects. It has roots in fetishes though, and those who want to go that route should never be discouraged from doing so.
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PostSubject: Re: Moral Premise   Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:06 pm

Hmm, now that I read more closely...

GideonChan wrote:
As soon as a predator eats a lot of human-sized species, nobody bats an eye. But when anyone smaller than a predator dares to fight back, they denounce the fanfiction as "wish fulfillment."

If I may inquire, GideonChan, are you talking about any particular fanfictions? I must admit I haven't read any for quite a while, but I don't recall seeing that happen ever. In fact, I've written more than a few stories where people fought back against predators myself, and I only got a negative response once. Even then it was a problem with suspension of disbelief because of OP MC, not an accusation of WF.

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PostSubject: Re: Moral Premise   Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:29 pm

Stabs wrote:
Hmm, now that I read more closely...

GideonChan wrote:
As soon as a predator eats a lot of human-sized species, nobody bats an eye. But when anyone smaller than a predator dares to fight back, they denounce the fanfiction as "wish fulfillment."

If I may inquire, GideonChan, are you talking about any particular fanfictions? I must admit I haven't read any for quite a while, but I don't recall seeing that happen ever. In fact, I've written more than a few stories where people fought back against predators myself, and I only got a negative response once. Even then it was a problem with suspension of disbelief because of OP MC, not an accusation of WF.

I remember someone here went through all the existing Felarya fan-stories before. This was back in the vent days. Lol. Thousands of stories...
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PostSubject: Re: Moral Premise   Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:47 am

I think we're mixing up in-universe morals with the writer's morals.  Just because a writer has certain morals doesn't mean that those morals should be an overriding feature in the work; that's how you wind up with drivel like Atlas Shrugged.  In-universe, you're right; very few characters come from Earth, and while plenty of other humanoids have morals recognizable to us, there are plenty that have moral structures that are truly alien.

Out-of-universe, though, "morals" is a bad way of looking at things; we should look at goals, plots, tone, and consistency when we write.  Felaryan writers generally aren't making moral statements; they're writing fetishes.  In-verse, I have no doubt that most predators are considered evil by most of their potential prey, and the stories often reflect this, but for the writer and readers, the predators aren't in the story to be good or evil; they're in the story to be characters...and to cause vore.
[quote="GideonChan"]As soon as a predator eats a lot of human-sized species, nobody bats an eye. But when anyone smaller than a predator dares to fight back, they denounce the fanfiction as "wish fulfillment."[quote]
This isn't about morality, this is about good or bad writing...and, honestly, about vore.  Predators eating humans is both fulfilling that fetish, and (out-of-universe, because of that) the normal in Felarya.  That's not to say that humans are powerless; far from it.  When a human defeats a predator, however, and especially if the defeat is major, it's up to the writer to convince the audience that it was plausible.  For example, here are two extremely polarized scenarios:

  • A supremely-skilled wandering swordsman is taking an afternoon stroll through the jungle when he hears a naga trying to sneak up on him.  He unsheathes his unique magic sword (probably a katana), which has some absurdly edgy, arrogant name, and cuts the naga in half with a single strike–along with the tree it was climbing on and the other three trees nearby.
  • A small Vishmital hovercraft is making a supply run between two outposts, along a path through a forest they've used before.  They know that there's at least one predator in the area, and they're all on edge because their thermals have picked up something large and fast, last seen moving towards the path ahead of them before they lost sight of it.  Suddenly, a naga bursts out of a tree overhanging the path and reaches for the hovercraft, intent on cracking open the metal hull and feasting on the treats inside.  The pilot manages to barely swerve out of the way of the first grab, but her tail slams down in front of the craft, blocking their way forward.  The light laser turret lets off a flurry of desperate shots, but only manages to warm the naga's scales as she reaches for them again with almost contemptuous slowness as her tail continues to curl around, blocking the Vishmitals' retreat.  Her arrogance cost her, though, when pinpricks of pain in her fingers greet her hand as she tries to close it around the hovercraft; the passengers have stuck their Vishmitali flip-spears out through the slatted windows.  The blades are mere needles to the naga, but coated with powerful irritants, the pinpricks they cause burn.  Realizing the preparedness of her prey, the naga makes a much faster grab with two hands, the hull of the hovercraft visibly buckling but holding for the moment.  Continuing to use their spears, the Vishmital again sting the palms and fingers of the naga, three of them focusing on a single spot and driving their blades deep.  With a roar of agony, the naga's grip loosens, one hand coming almost completely off, dragging one of the spears with it, wrenching it from the grasp of its wielder.  The one-handed grip of the naga isn't quite tight enough to prevent escape any longer, however, and with a shove on the throttle, the pilot lights the afterburners of the small craft, their plasma exhaust causing the predator to yank her hand away as if from a hot stove, complete with first-degree burns.  The naga tries to bring her tail into midair to block the falling hovercraft from escaping, but it bounces off, the tail scraping a shower of sparks from its underside as its powerful engines drive it fully out of the naga's reach as it falls back to earth.  For a brief second after a teeth-jarring landing, it skids along the dirt path before the hoverjets push it off the ground, one of them grinding and belching acrid smoke but still running.  In the second it takes for the naga to regain her composure, the hovercraft's afterburners have given it both the speed and distance to make the naga give up and seek easier prey.  The Vishmital need to call for an escort from their destination to guard them as they limp the rest of the way, but, battered, bruised, and in need of repairs they are, they survive, and with over half of the cargo intact, to boot.

Notice the differences between the two?  The first would be the sort of writing that would likely earn the wish-fulfillment criticism mentioned, whereas I dare say the second would not.  Simply put, humans acting within their limits and still feasibly managing to best predators is a lot more acceptable than a writer completely ignoring those limits.  Predators also have limits, and while more expansive than those of humans at times, I can assure you that were, to say, a predator start invading Negav and eating people, there'd be a pretty large negative reaction from the readers. If you have a specific story or two in mind, we can give more detailed and complete feedback.
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