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Takan Twins
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PostSubject: Dimensional travel limitations   Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:51 am

Good relevant time period to you all.

In doing some research on the setting I am curious about the multidimensional nature of Felarya and the potential of it crossing over with other worlds. It has obviously in the past been the case, with mention of such things as the great dimensional gate and the portal in Negav allowing access to other worlds. There is also mention of unstable gateways opening up in certain unstable regions of the world for short periods of time.

My question really is what sort of limitations would these dimensional windows have? Are there records of them sticking around for long periods of time, or is it generally only a matter of minutes? How much mass could feasibly transfer through them? And if a window were to close, would there be a chance of another opening leading back to the same world?

My assumption so far is that anything is theoretically possible, but would be interested to hear community input on this. I ask specifically as I am interested in writing a story specifically concerning a taskgroup of WW2 era equivalent warships ending up in the Topazial sea, and a brief, messy engagement with the local fauna.

Thanks for your time and looking forward to your answers
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PostSubject: Re: Dimensional travel limitations   Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:14 am

Well to be fair I don't believe we have anything more than guide lines for how portals in theory. Now I can tell you that you can freely access the Negav Portal is not as easy as most think. You need special dispensation to use it and that in turn requires making a case to the one over it, I think that's Lord Gammon if I'm not mistaken, and hope he thinks you have enough reason to need the use of such a powerful arrifact AND THEN  you have to pay a certain fee depending on the world. The one thing that derails all this is if the world's doesn't have magic then usually the Negav Portal can't recognize it. This doesn't mean that techno portals don't connect to Fearya just not Negav typically.

If you want a poetol that can take you anywhere for free in theory the Great portal of Ur Sagol can and requires no money to use Buuuut it's dead center of the ruined city....in which many powerful predators hunt and many dangers exist hidden in the shadows...

But on the revelation subject of your original post: the best way to send a Destroyer or a Warship to Felarya is to use natural Earth stuff. Time space ruptures, wormholes and things like the Bermuda Triangle.

Also as a final note keep in mind a portal is a controlled event and dimensional shift is a random moment the fabric of Felarya 'rubs' another world. Vanishing lands sometimes occur from this or stabilize and become part of the realm itself. It's how The Jungle Bowl cane to be. But there's DOZENS of event types and styles in theory as well as what writers use in the Felaryan setting. It's all father fast and loose wiry guide lines mostly.


Last edited by jedi-explorer on Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Dimensional travel limitations   Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:17 am

Anything and everything is possible but anything that's OP will be roflstomped by the NPCs... *cough* I mean to say, guardians.

Generally speaking some areas of Felarya are more stable than others, so the length of time of a snap can be relatively instantaneously ( ala Philadelphia Experiment ) or continuous, though "safe" is generally only applicable to the two gates themselves. It should also be noted that the gates can't take you everywhere, and it's generally assumed that while people can come from Earth-like worlds, Earth does not exist in Felarya's spatial domain.

Also, not sure about messy but one encounter with a leviathan would be the height of brevity to large metal ships in open seas. Felarya follows Gundam rules for predators - the larger and more unwieldy it is, the faster and better it moves.
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PostSubject: Re: Dimensional travel limitations   Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:50 am

That's fair and noted, I assumed things would be mostly fast and loose in a sense, and the gateways themselves I planned on interacting with in another manner. This was primarily on events that would occur away from the gates. So yeah I'm assuming the general rule of don't take the piss can be applied in most circumstances. The world where these vessels would be coming from has a degree of native magic so it's not inconceivable that there would be a connection at times. There's also some dimensional instability that could contribute in their home world too.

As for leviathans, well they most certainly would cause an issue, though you might be amazed what a W23 equivalent can do~ Either way, it's interesting to think about. To point out, the ships wouldn't be planning on hanging around for long. Getting home I feel it the top priority in these circumstances, with the use of as little force as needed to achieve this aim. Assuming they could somehow return.
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PostSubject: Re: Dimensional travel limitations   Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:30 pm

For the story you're planning to write, I agree that dimensional instability is probably the go-to option. And if you want to put your fleet in the Topazial Sea, then that body of water already has the Great Topazial Rift, which sounds like exactly what you need. I would personally expect that, on their home plane, the dimensional connection would manifest a massive storm as well due to colliding atmospheric fronts, all the better to cause trouble for your fleet (though the heavier warships should be just fine...from that part, at least).

On the topic of the engagement itself, W23-analogues are massive overkill...and at a leviathan's preferred engagement ranges, suicidal. That said, normal shells would be plenty effective, and the armored hulls of the warships would actually be decently hard for most predators to easily damage. I think most predators would try hit-and-run attacks on the smaller escorts...though, if doctrines are similar to Earth's WWII ones, those are the ships most likely to have depth charges, which are absolutely terrifying to even the largest of leviathans, battering and bruising them simply for being close and deafening them (and blinding their echolocation) in quite a large area. Harpies and other flying predators would likely be easily repelled by massed anti-aircraft fire. In a straight-up engagement, I'd think your fleet to actually be relatively capable against most likely opposition, though a skilled hydromancer below the waves could easily turn things around (on the other hand, if there's magic in their home world, then any major warship fleet almost certainly has its own hydromancer corps aboard). The thin-skinned escorts would be the most vulnerable, I'd think, and the fleet is likely in significant danger of attrition unless it can make it to shallower waters (one significant advantage ships have over predators is that they can function just well in quite shallow water for their size, while near shore a giant mermaid needs to switch from swimming to pretending to be a naga).
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PostSubject: Re: Dimensional travel limitations   Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:32 pm

An armoured hull means jack all when a well placed steam void is all it takes to snap your keel. Seriously, any intelligent mermaid could sink your fleet and not give a hoot about your depth charges, I just went with leviathans since it's most likely that a fleet of warships would wind up most probably derping over a mermaid school. Also assuming said mermaid isn't so deep down that you're better off dropping nuclear depth bombs and calling them 'depth charges' because the water pressure alone would destroy it before it could even get close otherwise ( effect of weapon decreases by cube function as a function of radius and depth ).

Depth charges are only useful against the critters <200 fathoms that ( theoretically, since it hasn't been exactly established that they can't - *coughcough*Ryzelm’oire*cough* ) can't go deep enough to get below the steam void minimisation distance. And noise doesn't matter if you're underneath the thermocline layer ( increasing sea pressure at constant sea temperature causes sound to refract UP, ignoring any affects of thermal layering above it that will also diminish the return ), so yeah. Useless. A nuclear depth bomb's shockwave - assuming the target is between the refraction point - could likely do damage. Assuming you don't sink your own ships using it. Assuming of course that magic can't overcome the depth pressure that causes the minimisation of steam voids ( ie, why submarines dive when depth charged ). So you know - at this point our tech is useful for getting the mermaids pissed off at you and basically nothing else.

Shallow water is where ships in Felarya remain, because open water is just not happening without assistance from one of the big'guns.

And speaking of guns at least those will be effective against harpies. And mermaids or nagas or chlaena on top of the water ( assuming your gun elevations don't prohibit it - want to know why battleships always attempted to ram submarines? Although the Dreadnought is the only one that actually can be confirmed with a kill ). Though noone's every really figured out if harpies are generally found in large populations in open water. Probably not. So unless you're near the islands or the mainland I doubt you need to worry about anything other than nagas and mermaids. Or krakens. Actually the krakens are probably the biggest worry, assuming no schools of mermaids are disturbed. Assuming no stupidity on the part of the sailors with the mermaid schools, the krakens would be the ones to fuck with you.... just because.

And this is assuming we're just talking about the mermaids. The Vish got hammered by a storm sprite ( which is just a fairy elemental... the oceans of Felarya are rather underdeveloped in that regard ). So yeah.

As much as I like to harp on what technology can do to predators, if we accept that a leviathan mermaid or a kraken can exist then we have to accept the "reality" of its existence. And the reality of those types of existence is that any ships operating on displacement theory in the water cannot continue to exist unless said creatures desire them to. Armour is only effective at stopping or deflecting penetrations, not the ocean ( see Typhoon Cobra ). Being in the water is pretty much the worst possible place you can be in Felarya itself ( not talking about a Lydus plane ).

Takan Twins wrote:
To point out, the ships wouldn't be planning on hanging around for long. Getting home I feel it the top priority in these circumstances, with the use of as little force as needed to achieve this aim. Assuming they could somehow return.

The only viable way without your own gate system or equivalent is encountering a second snap. Y'know, like putting everyone to sleep on the Langoliers flight. Fortunately plot armour will cover your ability to find a way home should you desire it.
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PostSubject: Re: Dimensional travel limitations   Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:59 pm

Seems I still have a lot to learn about the capabilities of some of the predators on this world, which is good as learning is proving to be very enjoyable. My first question is what a steam void is. I have a vague idea as to what it could be, and I imagine there are plenty of ways to deal with surface ships when you have magic on your side given the principles of buoyancy that keep them afloat in the first place.

Nuclear depth bombs are not out of the question, though since writing this up originally I am unsure if they would have hit the nuclear era as of yet, so that entire point is kind of us for debate. But it is something to thing about.

Also the rift does make sense as an entrance point, obviously providing its own hazards and risks to a fleet, but nice to know that something such as that exists. Back on the homeworld I was going to be using a localised aether storm at the point where the connection was established, so that little point works out quite nicely.

As for whether the fleet has its own mages, as of yet I'm unsure. Magic works quite a bit differently on their homeworld as to what I've read up on Felarya, so seeing how those two interact could be a fun topic in its own right. Also this seems to be turning more into how military technology works/doesnt work in these given situations XD. Which I am all open to hearing opinions on of course. Something I am curious about is would the military fleet be seen inherently as a threat from first contact? This sounds like a dumb question, but would the denizens of the world had contact with something like this before, and have established strategies of dealing with them, or would there be an inherent curiosity, or even just raw hunger that might prompt a mermaid to not be quite as cautious as necessary? The oceans are reportedly not that well travelled due to the inherent dangers, and would felarya have even encounted iron clad warships? Let me know your thoughts on this ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Dimensional travel limitations   Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:34 am

Steam voids are created by underwater explosions. Hypervelocity gasses trapped by water pressure create... for lack of a better / simpler term, lets call them extremely less dense air pockets. This is how depth charges and modern torpedoes work. Old WWI/II torps actually hit the target to sink it. This is a horrible and grossly inefficient idea. Modern torpedoes explode beneath the target, creating voids that cause the keel to snap. Depth charges haven't changed - the explosion creates a steam void which, if done correctly, introduces massive cyclic stresses on a submarine's hull. This is why depth charges are always dropped in pairs - the idea is to explode one on the left side bottom, and the other on the right side top. This should cause the hull of the submarine to snap open like a burst soda can.

Depth charges were only ever effective down to around 1000ft though, ie <200 fathoms. This wasn't an issue because submarines rarely go down deeper than that. Even modern submarines can't go deeper than ~1500ft. Effective range for the typical depth charge is also really short. Like less than 30ft short. The deeper you go in the water the more pressure you withstand, thus the less your explosion affects water displacement by steam void ( steam void minimisation ). This effect is a cube declination, ie. the effect of your weapon decreases by a cube for every unit of measurement moving out from center of mass.

Nuclear depth bombs are out of the question - you'd sink your own ships. They're dropped by aerial SAR planes. Or they were, back when we still had them ( the world has effectively agreed there are better ways to sink submarines ). If you're being attacked in Felarya even with magic you're probably too close to use nuclear anything without severe concern to your own people. They are the only weapon I can think of though that might have an effect on a deep diver in Felarya. We've never clarified the depth of Felarya's oceans, but we know that 'oire is on the ocean's floor and there are parts of 'oire that are dark. As in, visible light from above do not reach them. So pretty darn deep.




The krakens won't care, their chaotic nature and inhuman thinking make dealing with them the most illogical and concerning. The leviathans of the sea are also Felarya's best bet outside of the guardians for having survived the Corrector's invasion way back when so let's go with: they've seen some shit. Felarya is no stranger to technological displacements; there are the Miratans, the Vish, and the Delurans for example. None of these ever made water contact, but water contact stories are not exactly mainstream or often explored. The leviathan mermaids only care insofar as their schools are concerned, but mermaids tend to be playful and any low-slung ship hull is going to be tempting. A dreadnought class vessel for example is usually pretty close to the waterline. Battleships, battlecruisers / heavy crusiers, and of course carriers have high draft lines and likely would not be threatened by an inquisitive mermaid.

That's not to say that the sailors wouldn't consider them a threat though, regardless of action or inaction.
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PostSubject: Re: Dimensional travel limitations   Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:26 am

Ah that is good to know. I was aware of the phenomenon but didn't know that was a term for it. I feel more educated now! It is making me re-assess the nature of this story significantly though. It's also the main reason for attempting water contact, it doesnt seem to have been that common. Afterall the sailors wouldn't be itching for a fight in the first place. I imagine large sonar contact would possibly prompt a response but a giant mer person and a submarine would have quite different contact signatures.

Still, all thing considered caution would be a watch word. Slightly different matter if they surface first I imagine. 6+ inch shells are going to do some substantial damage, but of course that is a big if from what you're saying
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PostSubject: Re: Dimensional travel limitations   Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:11 am

An active sonar would likely be construed as a noise attack by any of the ocean's sapient denizens. Active sonar pulses will harm anything nearby and draw unwelcome attention.

Passive sonar is a mixed bag - again, we don't know the composition of Felarya's oceans but needless to say your sailors are likely to be confused by their fathometer readings from the passive 'phones. Especially if said denizens are talking underwater, as a school of merfolk would.




6+ inch calibre weapons like those mounted on the secondary or primary batteries or any rocketry system will of course have a profound affect on predators not in the water. The problem is the bearing capabilities of your guns. Generally speaking, they're not designed to point down as an enemy ship shouldn't be that close to yours, so unless a giant actually full surfaces so that they're sticking out of the water you won't be able to get a bearing on target. Even more concerning if they surface in the midst of your flotilla, since crossfire becomes a major issue. Don't forget that WWI/II warships fought not with radar but with periscopic rangefinders and spotlights.

More than likely the small calibre AA guns will be the weapons that you can get to bear on targets below the deck line, and while those can maim they aren't likely to kill unless we're talking human sized mermaids. You could also use SUBROC or jettison depth charges, but explosives that close to your own hull is also a bad idea ™.
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PostSubject: Re: Dimensional travel limitations   Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:24 pm

From the design the secondaries would be capable of fairly close in attacking, but yes the main batteries would be next to useless without targets up and out of the water. The crossfire issues is another one, especially when dealing with the battleships. Radar is a little further developed in this world, as is sonar, and aircraft development is quite heavily lagging behind, so there are some variances in technology available.

Still, thanks for the input on this and it's appreciated. I feel more educated in this regard now.

--------------

Leaving the warships behind for now, and back on dimensional issues. From what was described earlier, Felarya mostly connects to worlds that also have it's own form of magic. Though from what I've seen magic operates on different principles between worlds and realities. Does everything default to Felaryan magic and the systems they use, or do they maintain abilities and the practices from their home universe?
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PostSubject: Re: Dimensional travel limitations   Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:48 pm

Language translation = Defaults to Felaryan methods

Necromancy = Not allowed / Doesn't work

No other major notions are mentioned. May or may not fall into a Felaryan school depending on author's bias. The effects of the soil is more an additive than a separate notion and likely would either supplement or be useless.
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PostSubject: Re: Dimensional travel limitations   Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:53 am

Curious, but interesting, I would have assumed they might be more stringent rules on how magical systems would interact, but it's nice to know that we have some of the bases covered, and that there is wiggle room in how people from worlds that obey different rules might be affected by coming to Felarya in the first place. The soil itself is quite interesting too, and I keep forgetting the fact it seems to halt the aging process. Sudden realization that people on this world could literally be hundreds of years old if they are in a safe enough region. Though, obviously "safe" is relative~
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