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gwadahunter2222
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:58 pm

It said the existence of demons and angels in mortal plane is not the same in their homeworld. A demon can appear in a mortal land but not it's the same state in his homeworld Very Happy

The problem is here:
Quote :
As a general rule, the more powerful the demon and/or the more efficient it is with its energy, the longer it will be able to remain on a physical plane.

If we follow this rule only powerfull demon or angel can appear in the physical plane but low rank demons and angels can appear in Felarya too Very Happy

Terror is a powerfull demon so she has nothing to worry about her existence in the mortal plane.

The only person who had to worry was Menyssan because she's a low rank Succubus contrary to Arale.

But Quantum admit there are other possibilities Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:17 pm

Sean Okotami wrote:
According to this, it's only a physical manifestation of her that came in Felarya according to what Quantum said...

Incorrect; I said nothing of the sort.

Sean Okotami wrote:
The huge ass paragraphs says demons can't appear in person in any mortal plane.

Uh, no, it doesn't. Neutral

What the huge ass paragraphs say is this (short version): A demon who shows up on a physical plane is physically present there, but the entire being of the demon is NOT located solely in the physical plane.

It basically occupies space in the mortal plane, but also continues past it into another plane, because they are not native creatures of that plane. It is not a "physical manifestation of the demon", it is the actual demon herself... just not all of the demon. It's like you standing with one foot in a doorway and one foot outside. You're present in the room, but not all of you is.

Seriously, did I just not do a very good job of explaining how it works? confused If not, please let me know so I can reword it for clarity. Points keep getting brought up that I thought were explained fairly clearly in the posts, but I guess not. Sad


Last edited by TheQuantumMechanic on Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:33 pm

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
It said the existence of demons and angels in mortal plane is not the same in their homeworld. A demon can appear in a mortal land but not it's the same state in his homeworld Very Happy

Exactly.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
The problem is here:
Quote :
As a general rule, the more powerful the demon and/or the more efficient it is with its energy, the longer it will be able to remain on a physical plane.

I don't really see it as a problem; I made sure to leave plenty of loopholes in regards to angels and demons remaining on a physical realm for longer than normal periods of time, or even indefinitely. Instead of considering those possibilities and making use of one, people would rather come up with contradictions that the theory already takes into account, or read between the lines for things I never even said. sobsob

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
If we follow this rule only powerfull demon or angel can appear in the physical plane but low rank demons and angels can appear in Felarya too Very Happy

Even low-rank angels and demons would be able to appear in physical realms other than Felarya. Smile "Stay on a physical plane for a limited time" doesn't mean that they're going to disappear three seconds after they get there; I was never trying to imply that. Rolling Eyes It's just takes constant effort and is a drain on theim to stay in a physical plane, because they don't naturally exist in that state. Only the very weakest angelic or demonic creatures wouldn't be able to appear on a physical plane at all. Very Happy

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
Terror is a powerfull demon so she has nothing to worry about her existence in the mortal plane.

Not familiar with Terror, will have to do research. But if she's a pretty powerful demon, then she likely has nothing to worry about, yes. Even less powerful angels and demons can get by just fine, they just have to come up with an alternate solution than relying on their own personal energy reserves.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
The only person who had to worry was Menyssan because she's a low rank Succubus contrary to Arale.

Actually, I'd think Menyssan would have even less to worry about than most really powerful demons. She's smart enough to have a contingency plan or two to fall back on, more than capable of pulling strings to arrange things in her favor, and... heck, I really wouldn't be surprised if she can turn her meals into energy; as voracious an eater as she is, she would have no trouble maintaining a high enough energy level to maintain in Felarya as long as she wanted (if that were the case). Laughing

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
But Quantum admit there are other possibilities Very Happy

Not just admitted, I flat out stated that there were other possibilities. So far, though, I really haven't seen a single thing brought up that this theory doesn't already cover, still waiting for someone to find a glaring discrepancy or hole. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:19 am

Massive paragraphs are the base way to confuse me. And confusing me is so easy, you have no idea. x_x
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:47 am

Sean Okotami wrote:
Massive paragraphs are the base way to confuse me. And confusing me is so easy, you have no idea. x_x
That's why you should step back Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:27 pm

ok you fail to grasp a theory what if an angel or demon could convert the magical energy in ferlarya to the energy it needs to exist
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:54 pm

Then you'd be seeing magic-sucking voids on Felarya, and it wouldn't be a far stretch to assume all Magic targeted at Angels and Demons could be used to theoretically power them. And that does not match with what we already have seen of them.
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:00 pm

zelda31 wrote:
ok you fail to grasp a theory what if an angel or demon could convert the magical energy in ferlarya to the energy it needs to exist

Or gee, maybe you just explained it yourself, and that theory doesn't really contradict mine the way you think it does? Very Happy

If an angel or a demon is capable of converting magical energy in felarya into the type of energy it needs to exist... then obviously, it isn't going to have a problem staying on Felarya. An ability like that would be pretty handy, and also fairly rare, and fully possible under the framework I previously established. It would be more an individual ability of a specific angel or demon, rather than common among the entire species.

Unless you want to say that ALL angels and demons have that ability, your theory simply doesn't contradict mine. If you do want to say that, then it's a completely different case; but off the top of my head, I would say it's extremely unlikely that all angels/demons or even most of them, can convert raw magical energy into exactly the type of energy they need to exist.

The main reason is because if they could, angels and demons would be EVERYWHERE in Felarya; you wouldn't be able to get to Negav without tripping over a dozen. A law in Heaven and/or Hell saying they can't go to Felarya whenever they want isn't really going to do much good; both renegade Angels and renegade Demons are known to exist, and they're not going to care what some stuffy old entity on another plane says when they can get an all you can eat buffet whenever they want.

As it is, both Angels and Demons are known to come to Felarya, but encounters with either species tend to be rare. It's implied in the wiki that they only really show up in significant numbers in certain places or times, and it's likely that there's some reason for that. If you believe you can do a better, cohesive job of explaining it than I have, feel free to offer your own theories.

Malahite wrote:
Then you'd be seeing magic-sucking voids on Felarya, and it wouldn't be a far stretch to assume all Magic targeted at Angels and Demons could be used to theoretically power them. And that does not match with what we already have seen of them.

That's another very good reason (I told you there were several). More to the point, this statement is absolutely true, and the basis for most of what I've done: "And that does not match with what we already have seen of them." I strive to make anything I design both internally consistent, and compatible with external things it connects to. The first thing I did was make sure the completed version of this theory was consistent with things we've seen about demons and angels, and go over any glaring discrepancies to explain how they might be possible under my framework. So far, every major "contradiction" has several explanations possible under the framework to resolve it.

... You can take another whack at it, if you want. It's pretty robust. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:26 am

no thanks you pretty much beat me in the wits department though I had a feeling you already did
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:37 am

zelda31 wrote:
ok you fail to grasp a theory what if an angel or demon could convert the magical energy in ferlarya to the energy it needs to exist

His explanation doesn't exclude this point why because he just says demon and angels in mortal plane are not in the same state they are in their original world.

So this theory confirm this point, and little details the words angels and demons are vague in clear all demons or angels don't have necessary the same abilities and the same power.

They can be powerfull and have only one ability or very weak but have many abilities, there is an infinite possibilities.

The system of rank don't necessary prove they are very powerfull by example Menyssan is a low rank succubi but she can become a better rank than Arale but for personal reason she prefers to be a simple succubi. Arale even if she master of the coldfire she has been humiliated by Iridan a simple silver succubi.

If we look her illustrate bio Karbo posted on his DA page, she complains about that.

You post a valid point but it's not true for all the demon Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:49 am

I do believe there are some angels and demons who can subsist on raw magical energy alone, transforming it into the particular type of energy they need to survive. But like I said before, it's got to be a fairly rare ability.

I think a more common (but still by no means species-wide) ability among demons would be transforming digested prey into the energy they need to survive. Menyssan is a likely example of someone who might have this (still fairly rare) ability; as long as she keeps eating enough to maintain an energy surplus, she could basically stay in Felarya as long as she wants for theoretical purposes.

For practical purposes, she's eventually going to return to Hell sooner or later; maybe for no reason other than it becomes harder for her to scrounge up a large enough meal to offset her energy deficit, and she can no longer maintain a stable presence in Felarya. There are other practical concerns as well- Menyssan is notoriously lazy, and once she actually has to work at getting something to eat, she's probably going to head back to Hell, where she knows she has people lined up to be shoved into her mouth. Once her free meal ticket expires, there's not much point in her hanging around in Felarya other than to socialize with her friends or play games with mortals. Very Happy

What's interesting is that if Menyssan can convert prey into "infernal" energy to survive off of, the fact that she eats so much indicates that either:

1) Her body has an extremely poor conversion ratio of food-to-energy; the more efficient the process is, the less she would have to eat and the more power she would get from each meal.

or

2) She's just a glutton, and the fact that she stuffs her face has nothing to do with the rate at which her body converts food into energy, and everything to do with her liking to eat. lol!

Under my theory, both answers are possible and equally valid. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:03 am

I think I'll try to sum up what Quantum said.

When a demon or angel enters a mortal plane, it is still there in the flesh. However, the difference is that since this is not the same "conditions" for supernatural being to live there, their abilities are somewhat lessened, and instead of being killed on a mortal plane, they are sent back to Hell or Heaven depending on the race. The same "conditions" make it as if the atmosphere was lethal in a way, and after a while, they are sent back to where they come from. The duration they can spend there depends on their power, or rank, and certain conditions, such as punishment or mission.
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:18 am

Sean Okotami wrote:
I think I'll try to sum up what Quantum said.

When a demon or angel enters a mortal plane, it is still there in the flesh. However, the difference is that since this is not the same "conditions" for supernatural being to live there, their abilities are somewhat lessened, and instead of being killed on a mortal plane, they are sent back to Hell or Heaven depending on the race. The same "conditions" make it as if the atmosphere was lethal in a way, and after a while, they are sent back to where they come from. The duration they can spend there depends on their power, or rank, and certain conditions, such as punishment or mission.

That is a very good, and straight to the point, summary. Very Happy

I wish I could boil things down like that, but I have a problem with seeing "the forest for the trees" sometimes. Sad When I try to be succinct, it always feels like I'm leaving out something important. Neutral

Anyways, what Sean said is exactly what I meant; Angels and Demons can travel to and remain on just about any physical plane for a certain time (which varies greatly depending on a number of factors). But they do not exist on a physical plane in the same condition they exist in their native plane, so eventually they must return home, barring mitigating factors (receiving energy from somewhere else, being bound by a magic circle, any number of possible alternatives).

It's like holding your breath for as long as you can, or holding your arms straight out to your sides and trying not to let them drop; you can do it just fine for a while, but as time goes on you get tired and it becomes more and more difficult, until you have to stop. It is the same way with Angels and Demons, except their entire bodies (the parts of their being that are located in the physical plane, anyways) become physically exhausted, and they eventually have to "let go" of their hold on the physical realm.

... Like I said, Sean does a better job of explaining it in a more concise fashion than I do. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:37 am

WOW brillant explinations, I was thinking something simmlar, but you manged to explain it far better then I ever could or did XD and in great detail. I tip my hat to you, though I don't have a hat, so I'm gonna have to go buy one now, if you'll excuse me.
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:13 am

Well the overall is really an excellent characterization of a complex concept ! Razz

I am not too sure yet in which part I want to put it but I'll definitely do Smile However there is just some parts that I will put more in shadow to keep a more mysterious feel to it ^^
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:23 pm

karbo I don't mean to be off topic but certain parts of the wiki aren't even close like the lore section for example if you can please explain why this is so
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:26 pm

<<aren't even close like the lore section for example

Err.. I am sorry I don't understand the question ^^;
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:31 pm

Karbo wrote:
<<aren't even close like the lore section for example

Err.. I am sorry I don't understand the question ^^;
I think he means this thread would go well in the Lore section I think, or what you would put in the wiki at least.
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:34 pm

I think he is surprise by the fact in the lore section are sometimes different from the statement in the wiki.
But he forgets all the rumors are not necessary true, and some legends don't tell all the truth Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:32 am

I tend to think faster than I type sometimes leave certain words out by mistake I meant that certain sections of the wiki are far from complete my apologies about the mis understanding
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:19 am

zelda31 wrote:
I tend to think faster than I type sometimes leave certain words out by mistake I meant that certain sections of the wiki are far from complete my apologies about the mis understanding
It's normal the wiki is still in progress.
I would suggest you to give more explanation about your opinion because it's difficult to understand your point of view if you always speak with brief sentence.
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TheQuantumMechanic
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:25 am

zelda31 wrote:
I tend to think faster than I type sometimes leave certain words out by mistake I meant that certain sections of the wiki are far from complete my apologies about the mis understanding

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
It's normal the wiki is still in progress.
I would suggest you to give more explanation about your opinion because it's difficult to understand your point of view if you always speak with brief sentence.

That is good advice, but also... please, try to use punctuation (at least periods and commas) in your post. It isn't my intent to be a "grammar nazi" or anything, there are many people here who are not native speakers of english. But it will make people easier to understand your posts if you put some seperation between the points you are trying to make. Smile

Most of the times that I have hard a hard time figuring out what you meant, it was because your words kind of run together and it's harder to pick out specifics about what you're discussing. Sad

I hope you take this as constructive advice, and not an insult. Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:09 pm

Well I added your theory Smile
Tell me what you think about it ^^
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:07 am

Karbo wrote:
Well I added your theory Smile
Tell me what you think about it ^^

Excellent! Very Happy I particularly like the mysterious bit about Succubi and Angels who manage to find a way to stay permanently on Felarya... and aren't talking about it. Smile

Their respective reactions to the question are very interesting... Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: HELL... AND HEAVEN!   Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:17 pm

hehe glad you like it lol!
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