Mantoids and Sexual Cannibalism

I think we should all cool down a bit. I think we're all getting a bit defensive about something that I don't think is that big of a deal.

Atlas wrote:

se points I think Cliff is right; it may be her creation, but considering it's suposed to involve the rest of the community too, we must try to make the specie "believable" (as much as it is possible).

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Anyways, from my point of view, I don't think the main problem is based on the male being half the size of the female, or the female eating the male directly, but more on ... their mentalities.
I mean, I think the major problem is that no male would want to mate with a female if they know how they are gonna end; it would maybe work if they were realy insects, but they are half humans too...
Even if we accept all that stuff about females eating the male in the end, I can't find explanation with the male accepting to be eaten. .... unless of course, they don't know until it's too late ... it's a possibility ^^;

in my bio and in the wiki it states the mantoid race is race...the wiki just fails to exslain that it is because the lack of male willingness...

Asuroth wrote:

Well sheesh, this has gotten hostile. Let's try to keep it all in perspective if we can and remain calm please. It's just an idea and it's meant to be something fun and creative.

Anyways, I might as well state my own opinions on this too... so I'll be blunt. I actually found the cannibalism thing to be a rather unique thing to them, with besides joking references such as in the doodle allowed for some new story dynamics to take place that just won't happen elsewhere. For an instance of what I mean, I would refer you to Globfish's story Through the Mist. Even Manny of Blaz's, should he continue anything with him, has some unique possibilities heh. The discussion on real mantisses and the like has already been discussed at length and the point is clear about how it occurs so I'm just not gonna touch- that's done. For Felarya though I don't mind it being around as is, I mean these hybrids already DO act rather 'grimly' in regards to their eating habits- very messy eaters when it comes to dridders and harpies. 'Stereotype' of mantises, maybe, but Felaryans are very alien in mindset and it's hard to pin them down- it likely could be just based on individual preferences to determine what will happen.

As for the nutrition during prengancy...what I gather from it and can understand/guess, is the mantoid female will take on a taxing moment lasting for a short time (not sure of duration, possibly days to weeks or more) before she lays her eggs, but nowhere near as long as mammal pregnancies. Hitomi has laid her eggs already and guards her eggs as they have not hatched- so she laid them sometime but the eggs aren't all ready to hatch and she must watch over them until then. So I'm more going along, for mechanics sake of the need of nutrtion for the pregnancy, that they require this sudden increase during the time the eggs are still in them up until they must be laid and then watched over as they finish maturing. While having this many eggs she is also greatly incapacitated and would also risk her eggs if she hunted herself (if possible at all). Basically I see their reproduction as something a bit odd and in between the egg laying and mammal species (funny how that works with a hybrid heh...didn't realize that till I got this far writing).

oops sorry my bad...I quoted Karbo instead of you...

I still dont know how to use this quote thing...but yes...the female after mating will become swollen with the eggs...thus unable to hunt or do anything really till she actually lays the eggs..a.fter that she is free do do anything...

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She offered to compromise on the female not always eating their males. that seem pretty reasonnable to me.

That isn't a compromise though. The problem is the trait itself, not how many times its done.

Thats as much compromise as me going "I don't like getting punched in the face" and the other person going "Alright, I'll only punch you in the face once per day."

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I'm tring to be of reason...I am telling you the thing but your seemingly one track mind wont listen to the reason...

I've actually been the one giving facts, and explaining the logic behind my views. All you have done is look for ANY obscure thing in the wiki that supports your case, talk about how "most insects eat their mates, not just mantises" (which isn't true, by the way), and add in physical traits that weren't there before to try and keep your idea (the stretchy mouths and throats).
You've made it clear you weren't going to acknowledge my points from the start. It was my mistake for giving enough of a damn about this world to keep trying.

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just because they eat the male during breeding MEANS nothing...just one occation in their life...not everything is about vore...they live...they have personalities...the female dosent HAVE to do it...what is the problem here?...

It completely changes them as a species, and turns the males into tiny, weak, largely inconsequential, meals. What about the people who have male Mantoids? Ever think about how many of them are going to need to completely change everything?

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sothell me what the problem is...please?...because seriously...

I have been telling you what the problems are for about 3 pages now. Just go back and re-read my posts.

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and also...the sexual canibilism was add SINCE THE START...I just have no idea why the person who wrote the wiki dint write down the reason...

It wasn't in the wiki from the start. The mantoids have been fine for years, until you did, well..THIS to them. Maybe you should have cared more about your idea and checked to be sure its wiki entry was right? Have you really not looked at the Mantoid wiki entry since it got put up? Maybe you should have pitched the idea on the forum first? Although, I doubt we would have agreed with the sexual cannibalism back then either. That's the one thing no one has ever liked about Mantoids, we just assumed it was non-canon and just a joke, or rumor.

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Oh and here is a thing...I DIND allow changes made on the mantoid already...

DIND? Afraid I don't know that word.

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My idea for the matoid was they had 4 legs...sinfce pray mantesis uses 2 of their legs as forearms...so the Mantoids forearms are the other 2 legs...pretty much mantises have 6 limbs...but for some reason resent mantoids have 6 of them...pretty much making the mantoid have 8 limbs...2 more than they should...but I allowed it...I mean it makes them look more like a mantis...somewhat....and it went again my desings but hey...there can be more than one breed of matoid right?...

That's your fault for not being more supportive of your intial idea. I like them better with 4 legs and blades on their forearms. Having 2 tiny arms on their hips are kind of pointless. That's another issue with Mantoids, albeit a smaller one. There's no standard build. There should be a standard mantoid body shape, not the 5 different ones we have now. All in all, they're just a mess at this point, and they need more refinement.

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now when it comes to their breeding habits...I thought of of somthing that works that goes agains what you want it to be

The way egg-laying predators' pregnancies behave isn't just me trying to get things "like I want it to be." These discussions have been held in many threads in this forum, it was a community decision, and now you're just coming along and telling everyone "Forget about what you guys decided, Im going to do whatever I want."

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I TRIED to make comprimises...lowering the chances of the male from being eaten to half instead of it being rare for the male to to be eaten

That isn't a compromise, Kiki. My issue wasn't with the number of males getting eaten...it was with males getting eaten at all. A compromise is when both sides make concessions, not where one side goes "Well, Im still going to do everything you are against, but I'll just do it a little less often."

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and I exsplained the reasoning which is perfectly logical

Nothing about any of your reasoning is logical.

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so what's the problem...if I remove it entirely...the mantoids will be like any other race out their...pretty much Dridders with 2 missing legs...

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I dont want to remove it entirely because it's the only thing seperating them from the other races

If you feel that way, then honestly you've designed them wrong. You feel like you NEED a single gimmick to make them unique, and that isn't a good sign. Maybe you need to go back to the drawing board and redesign them? Maybe think up some more traits, some culture, some history? When you build an entire race, their physiology, and culture around a single gimmick, it makes them look worse than a copy of another race, it makes them look one-note and simplistic.

Instead of asking yourself "How can I make it possible for female mantoids to eat their mates, so that they can be unique?" you should be asking yourself "What can I do to make them unique, without resorting to female mantoids having to eat their makes?" The trick to making a race unique isn't to give them a single gimmick, it is to flesh them out more fully and completely as a race.

Sexual cannibalism is, like, the mantis' thing. It's not always observed in the wild, but how can you make a mantis-based demi without giving it some acknowledgment?


Plus, Word of God says they do eat their mates, sooooooo....

rcs619 wrote:

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She offered to compromise on the female not always eating their males. that seem pretty reasonnable to me.

That isn't a compromise though. The problem is the trait itself, not how many times its done.

Thats as much compromise as me going "I don't like getting punched in the face" and the other person going "Alright, I'll only punch you in the face once per day."

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I'm tring to be of reason...I am telling you the thing but your seemingly one track mind wont listen to the reason...

I've actually been the one giving facts, and explaining the logic behind my views. All you have done is look for ANY obscure thing in the wiki that supports your case, talk about how "most insects eat their mates, not just mantises" (which isn't true, by the way), and add in physical traits that weren't there before to try and keep your idea (the stretchy mouths and throats).
You've made it clear you weren't going to acknowledge my points from the start. It was my mistake for giving enough of a damn about this world to keep trying.

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just because they eat the male during breeding MEANS nothing...just one occation in their life...not everything is about vore...they live...they have personalities...the female dosent HAVE to do it...what is the problem here?...

It completely changes them as a species, and turns the males into tiny, weak, largely inconsequential, meals. What about the people who have male Mantoids? Ever think about how many of them are going to need to completely change everything?

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sothell me what the problem is...please?...because seriously...

I have been telling you what the problems are for about 3 pages now. Just go back and re-read my posts.

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and also...the sexual canibilism was add SINCE THE START...I just have no idea why the person who wrote the wiki dint write down the reason...

It wasn't in the wiki from the start. The mantoids have been fine for years, until you did, well..THIS to them. Maybe you should have cared more about your idea and checked to be sure its wiki entry was right? Have you really not looked at the Mantoid wiki entry since it got put up? Maybe you should have pitched the idea on the forum first? Although, I doubt we would have agreed with the sexual cannibalism back then either. That's the one thing no one has ever liked about Mantoids, we just assumed it was non-canon and just a joke, or rumor.

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Oh and here is a thing...I DIND allow changes made on the mantoid already...

DIND? Afraid I don't know that word.

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My idea for the matoid was they had 4 legs...sinfce pray mantesis uses 2 of their legs as forearms...so the Mantoids forearms are the other 2 legs...pretty much mantises have 6 limbs...but for some reason resent mantoids have 6 of them...pretty much making the mantoid have 8 limbs...2 more than they should...but I allowed it...I mean it makes them look more like a mantis...somewhat....and it went again my desings but hey...there can be more than one breed of matoid right?...

That's your fault for not being more supportive of your intial idea. I like them better with 4 legs and blades on their forewarms. Having 2 tiny arms on their hips are kind of pointless. That's another issue with Mantoids, albeit a smaller one. There's no standard build. There should be a standard mantoid body shape, not the 5 different ones we have now. All in all, they're just a mess at this point, and they need more refinement.

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now when it comes to their breeding habits...I thought of of somthing that works that goes agains what you want it to be

The way egg-laying predators' pregnancies behave isn't just me trying to get things "like I want it to be." These discussions have been held in many threads in this forum, it was a community decision, and now you're just coming along and telling everyone "Forget about what you guys decided, Im going to do whatever I want."

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I TRIED to make comprimises...lowering the chances of the male from being eaten to half instead of it being rare for the male to to be eaten

That isn't a compromise, Kiki. My issue wasn't with the number of males getting eaten...it was with males getting eaten at all. A compromise is when both sides make concessions, not where one side goes "Well, Im still going to do everything you are against, but I'll just do it a little less often."

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and I exsplained the reasoning which is perfectly logical

Nothing about any of your reasoning is logical.

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so what's the problem...if I remove it entirely...the mantoids will be like any other race out their...pretty much Dridders with 2 missing legs...

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I dont want to remove it entirely because it's the only thing seperating them from the other races

If you feel that way, then honestly you've designed them wrong. You feel like you NEED a single gimmick to make them unique, and that isn't a good sign. Maybe you need to go back to the drawing board and redesign them? Maybe think up some more traits, some culture, some history? When you build an entire race, their physiology, and culture around a single gimmick, it makes them look worse than a copy of another race, it makes them look one-note and simplistic.

Instead of asking yourself "How can I make it possible for female mantoids to eat their mates, so that they can be unique?" you should be asking yourself "What can I do to make them unique, without resorting to female mantoids having to eat their makes?" The trick to making a race unique isn't to give them a single gimmick, it is to flesh them out more fully and completely as a race.

ok cliff...

so tell me...when I designed the mantoids...which again...was before I they were in the wiki...

they ate the malesyep they did

then people started liking my new mantoid race because at the time...only 3 existedd...Hitomi, Vanessa and magdelyn...

adventually people made their own characters...

then sdince they were seemingly getting popular Karbo drew a mantoid picture

after that ssomeone came to me and asked if they could write a mantoid bio for the wiki...and I was like "woah really?..." so I let them...

they left out the mantoid eating the male thing

and Now this happened...

so tell me cliff...is people enjoyed them...before they were in the wiki...and they ate males...then...how did I chagne them...

I DIDNT CHANGE THEM AT ALL...

I
DID
NOT
CHANGE
THEM
AT
ALLLLLLLLLL

it was people who decided to debate about this that change them...

I MADE THE MANTOID RACE AND PEOPLE ADDED THEM>..THEN CHANGED IT!!!...


I did read it on the wiki

i did say they forgot to mention the male mantoid thing and the pregnacy and the reason why they do it...

but it was never added...no clue why but it flew over everyone's heads...

GREGOLE wrote:

Sexual cannibalism is, like, the mantis' thing.

See Cliff's arguments about "gimmicks".

Heh, breaking out the caps huh? Is someone getting angry? =P

The fact is, for the last several years, people have been looking at the Mantoids based on their wiki bio. Adding in the sexual cannibalism to that is a big change, and completely changes the race from what people are familiar with.

Its your own fault for not checking the wiki entry when it first went up. How did you not notice it until now? I mean, really? I check all the entries about my ideas as soon as I find out about them...but then again, I DO care about the integrity of my ideas.

Cliff, your tone will not help your case... although people may not always listen to rational arguments, we should stick to that road.

Aside from his current disposition, Cliff IS presenting rational points. Arguments ad hominem are bound to tick him off. That applies to you, as well, Cliff. Let us stick to rational points...

rcs619 wrote:

Heh, breaking out the caps huh? Is someone getting angry? =P

The fact is, for the last several years, people have been looking at the Mantoids based on their wiki bio. Adding in the sexual cannibalism to that is a big change, and completely changes the race from what people are familiar with.

Its your own fault for not checking the wiki entry when it first went up. How did you not notice it until now? I mean, really? I check all the entries about my ideas as soon as I find out about them...but then again, I DO care about the integrity of my ideas.

I am fusterated and annoyed that you wont listen to reason and stop being one sided and maybe think about why I am try to defend...

I did read the wiki and I did try to change it so it was accuret...but nothing was changed since I cant write in the wiki...i do care for my races really do do...tyelling me I dont care is insaulting beyond reason and really..you should be a shamed and really should aplogies...and I do apologies for getting upset...but knowing that somthing I cared is being like this...and even after I tried to justify and have...well..you pretty much say eveything dosent make sense when it does...then well...i get upset...but I apologies and only want to keep my race how I imagined it and love it to be...

but please...insault me again and I will get mad...

and again...I did try to change it...

They do have plenty of unique traits to them- the wind dancing, extreme agility (tackle a harpy out of the sky, not many can do that) and different feeding methods among them to differentiate them. This was merely another to help add a bit of flavor to it really, not a key defining vore thing. Honestly compromises have been brought up- not as small males so they aren't hugely different in size (converting to hard vore for this), a large reduction in the cases they eat their mate- I'm fairly sure we've gone beyond the stretchy throats from the sound of it, correct me if I'm wrong. The explanations for it are in regards to the pregnancy I've stated, which as luck would have it was close to what she meant- and the alternatives exist from the compromises made for the mate to gather food and have to work to feed him, his mate and the babies until they are laid. In regards to population balances of ratios you could even extend for slightly more males at birth that evens out to other levels later due to their behavior.

I'm curious what compromises would be suggested besides those...cause it seems like all or nothing from the sound of against it. Not an attack in any way, but I am curious what they would be.

In the end though, a revision seems to be in order to address this part of their feeding habits and also size. As stated before, this habit was included in the original draft presented (approved by Kiki at the time and nothing was mentioned otherwise disapproving from the forum then) so something just slipped up and it needs to be updated, that's all. Overall though, it may sound ignorant to just bypass the real world cases which have been discussed, but what is the massive harm in allowing them this trait? I've honestly yet to see a mantoid that is so affected by it that this destroys the character myself, several in fact were made with the implications in mind.

kikijonson wrote:

I am fusterated and annoyed that you wont listen to reason and stop being one sided and maybe think about why I am try to defend...

From my position as a third party, that can really be said of both of you. Cliff is very one-sided, yes, but he does have rationality on his side. He did throw a few ad hominems in there, and I've told him that it wasn't a good move, but the point stands that you can't accuse him of being irrational, lest it become an example of tu quoque.

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am fusterated and annoyed that you wont listen to reason and stop being one sided and maybe think about why I am try to defend...

Sure is pot calling the kettle black in here.

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I did read the wiki and I did try to change it so it was accuret...but nothing was changed since I cant write in the wiki...

...Then ask someone who can? It isn't exactly hard. Frenchsnack and Oldman are both mods here and can change the wiki. Karbo can change the wiki. A PM or note could have fixed it in less than 24 hours. They have been that way for years.

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you should be a shamed and really should aplogies

Hah, no.

Im too bitter at this community to care about what anyone on this forum thinks of me anymore. My only concern is doing what is right for Felarya as a setting. I may not like the community much anymore, but I DO care about the world.

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but please...insault me again and I will get mad...

If I were wearing boots, I'd be shaking in them right now.

Just a thing, as I haven't read the discussion, and really can't be bothered to.


What's the harm of a mantoid being a cannibal? Lots of predators eat their own kind, even in this setting. MOST of them are cannibals, in the sense that they eat other humanoids. Is it really so different?

Asuroth wrote:

I'm fairly sure we've gone beyond the stretchy throats from the sound of it, correct me if I'm wrong.

I haven't. It sounds tacky, and irrational to me.

What I had meant was that option was ruled out- in favor of the hard vore one of more similar sizes.

Dammit, Cliff! I am trying my best to defend you, but you keep making it hard for me!

Without rational discussion, this degenerates into bickering. There is no "winning" in that, and if you continue, everyone loses, including you. Maybe you don't care about this community, but has it occurred to you that some of us are trying to maintain some semblance of respect for it?

Cannibalism isn't too unique. It isn't.

GREGOLE wrote:

Just a thing, as I haven't read the discussion, and really can't be bothered to.


What's the harm of a mantoid being a cannibal? Lots of predators eat their own kind, even in this setting. MOST of them are cannibals, in the sense that they eat other humanoids. Is it really so different?

It would make sense for cannibalism to be more wide spread on Felarya than we currently make it out to be; it is a dog eat dog world afterall for all species.

Do I think sexual cannibalism should be specific to Mantoids, no.

Do I thin cannibalism in general should be a more vivid trait on Felarya, yes.

If canniblism were a more common trait, it could increase the likelyness of mantoid attacks on each other leading to cannibalism; why waste a fresh carcass? Rather than direct sexual cannibalism what if relationship issues, due to their agressiveness, led to fights and that led to cannibalism?

I have no problem with the cannibalism. My problem with it is the way that it was being presented. The overly stretchy throat idea seemed to only exit for sexual cannibalism. The problem with this is I could never see a male of the species ever participating in this for fear of their own life. What CauldronBorn said seems much more sense to me; rather than the males simply being like, "Ok lets have kids and then you can kill and eat me".
I myself do not 'enjoy' hard vore, but it seems the most logical way for them to eat. All and all the only thing that I don't like about this is the sexual cannibalism. The Mantiods seem like a interesting race in every other way.

Ok...I'm calmer now...I took my test...which was putting stess on me so hopefull I can stay calm now...

Now...the males mantoids will be the same size...the reason I stated that they could be smaller an the females swallow them because people were complaining on how they think is grusem to have the female Hard vore them and stuff...now people are finding that stupid so...I guess the only thing to do is change it to where the males are the same size...but that leaves the female only to do hard vore...

so...the female and malle are the same size...maybe the female being slight bigger since insects tend to have the female bigger...but not by much you know...maybe like...a foot or two...

Ok...no time to discuss the eating thing...

The reason for the female eating the male is because...once pregnate...the female's body starts producing the eggs...and within a few days all the eggs will be made...ranging from 35 to 45 eggs...the eggs stay inside the female for about 2 weeks...then she lays the eggs in a safe spot...and gaurds them...now...during the 2 weeks of when the female is full of eggs...she's pretty much feeding herself and 45 other mantoids inside of her...obviously she needs all the nutrients she can get...but the problem is...she's full of eggs...making movement somewhat tough...try telling a woman who is pregnate with triplets to run around a track 3 times...it's not going to happen...

so in order to actually survive the 2 weeks of no food...the female eats the male...the males body provides enough nutriets for the female to make it through the 2 weeks without having to eat... (I guess you can say the males body is very...nutricious ^w^)

but the female dosent have to eat the male...this is often agreed apon by the mates...since Mantoids have a rather diffrent way of sex...breeding is breeding...you dont need to be a couple to have sex...so typically if two mantoids meet for the first time and breed...well most likely the ffemale eats the male...but if they are actually in a relationship then most likely the male wont get eaten...(i know this area is going to get debated...I have a hard time exsplaining it >.<)

in general mantoids see sex as well...just there...they use more of animal instincts I guess...

but if the female dosent eat the male...it's up to the male or any of the friends to help provide a constant stream of food so the female will have a safe pregnacy....

hopefull this describes everything alot better...

Ugh. Why is this still up for discussion?

Some mantoids eat their mates. Some don't. What the hell is so hard about that?

Shake hands, make up, go in the broom closet and perform your second grade secret handshake that you only share with your close friends. JUST SOMETHING.

Pendragon wrote:

Ugh. Why is this still up for discussion?

Some mantoids eat their mates. Some don't. What the hell is so hard about that?

Shake hands, make up, go in the broom closet and perform your second grade secret handshake that you only share with your close friends. JUST SOMETHING.

I dont know why anymore...it dosent seem much of a big deal when you put it in simpler terms...I guess the reason why things were crazy because I have a tendancy to exsplain things horrably...

I believe that, to Cliff and myself, it became a matter of principle. It was an argument of "community discussion" versus "creator's rights", at least to me. One side offered rational arguments, the other was more whim and fancy. This bred frustration on both sides.

The methods of cannibalism is hazy. Kiki doesn't seem to be against hard vore, and neither am I. I cannot speak for others on that. However, changing the size of males is far too drastic and is a big middle-finger to people who prefer an engaging setting and may have written their own mantoid characters.

I honestly don't care anymore.

They're your race, Kiki. Ruin them however you want.

Im going to actually focus on doing things that help the setting.

The methods are now roughly same sized hard vore from what was described I believe. The size differences are gone and they just eat each other like...well their large dridder or harpy prey heh.